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01:51Welcome to 위대한 수업
01:54Great Minds
01:55I'm Shelley Kagan
01:57I'm Clark Professor of Philosophy at Yale University
02:00I specialize in moral philosophy
02:03that is to say I specialize in ethics
02:06the part of philosophy where we try to work out the basic rules of what's right and wrong
02:11and in today's lecture what I'm going to be doing is talking about our moral treatment of animals
02:19that's a somewhat surprising topic
02:21normally when we think about ethics
02:23we think about the ways that we're obligated to treat other people
02:27because normally we only think about morality in terms of how we have to treat other people
02:34we focus on questions like when do we have to help people
02:38why it's wrong to lie to other people
02:40why you must not harm them
02:42why you have to keep your promises to various people
02:45we don't normally think all that much about whether we have moral obligations to animals
02:51and that's unfortunate because in fact as I'm going to be trying to convince you today
02:56we do in fact have moral obligations to animals
02:59and if we were to take these obligations seriously
03:02it would probably change dramatically the ways in which we interact with the animal kingdom
03:09to get the ideas flowing
03:12let me start by telling you an example
03:14it's a rather gruesome example
03:16imagine that I were to bring out right now a cat
03:19and I set the cat on fire
03:22I douse it with gasoline
03:24throw a match at it
03:26and the cat goes up in flames
03:28shrieking in agony
03:30until it dies in pain
03:33that's morally wrong
03:36there's something morally objectionable about setting a cat on fire
03:43now it's important to understand that when I talk about morally objectionable here
03:50what I've got in mind is the thought that there's something wrong about it
03:56but I don't have in mind whether the question whether or not it's illegal or not
03:59it's one thing to ask whether something is the right thing to do
04:02it's a different thing to ask whether or not there's anything illegal about it
04:06there are a lot of ways that something can be wrong
04:09if I were to have a go into your house and rip off a leaf from your or a petal from your prize orchid
04:20that would be wrong too
04:22it would be wrong because the orchid the plant belongs to you
04:26I wouldn't actually be doing anything wrong to the flower
04:32I wouldn't be wronging the flower
04:36I don't owe it to the flower that I treat it properly
04:40I owe it to you, the owner of the flower, that I treat the flower properly
04:45but if I were, in contrast, to go into your house and pull your arm off
04:52your arm off, we wouldn't merely say
04:55oh, that was wrong because it's mean to your family members
05:00we would say, I've done something wrong to you
05:04I owe it to you not to treat you that way
05:08maybe the cat is owned by somebody
05:11if I kill the cat, then that may be wronging or treating wrongly the owner of the cat
05:16but even if it's a stray cat
05:18what we'd want to say is that
05:20I am wronging the cat
05:23I am doing something to the cat
05:25that I owe it to the cat not to do
05:29we can say that the cat, like you, has a moral standing
05:33it matters morally in its own right
05:36and that's the basic point that I'm trying to have us think about today
05:40that animals count in their own right from the moral point of view
05:45as I say, one way to express this is to say that they have moral standing
05:50another piece of jargon that we could use is to say that animals have a positive moral status
05:58so that it's not just like a piece of paper
06:01where, you know, if I rip a piece of paper apart
06:05I don't owe anything to the piece of paper
06:07I haven't wronged the piece of paper
06:09but I owe it to the cat
06:12it's got a moral status that rules that kind of behavior out
06:15another way we could make the same point
06:17is by saying that the cat has a moral claim against us
06:22or if we want to we could talk in terms of rights
06:25and say the cat has a right that I not harm it in this way
06:29and if we ask, all right, very good, the cat counts
06:32what I've done is wrong and not merely wrong
06:34it's wrong, I've done something wrong to the cat
06:37we ask, why is that?
06:38well, the obvious answer is because the cat feels pain when I set it on fire
06:44and same thing if you were to think about a cow or a pig or a mouse
06:49or a dog or a bird or a snake
06:52if I cause pain to an animal
06:55I'm doing something wrong to that animal
06:59and so maybe if you've got some reason to want to set the cat on fire
07:03maybe that's okay
07:04but I think that's probably not right either
07:06imagine that the reason I set the cat on fire
07:09is because I like the sound it makes
07:15as it shrieks to death in agony
07:18there's a peculiarly wonderful and unique sound
07:22and I love listening to that sound
07:25I hope you have the same reaction that I do when I think about that example
07:30and I want to say, okay, look, the fact that you enjoy the sound is our reason to do it
07:35but it's not a very good reason
07:37and the reason that we've got to not set the cat on fire
07:40is a stronger reason than that
07:43and so that's just not a good enough justification
07:47and by virtue of feeling pain
07:50we've now seen they count morally
07:52and what's more, we've seen the fact that they count morally
07:56gives us a reason not to harm them
07:58a reason that's strong enough to outweigh some of our human desires
08:02and some of our human interests
08:04as I say, it's probably not hard to see that this line of thought
08:07if you take it seriously
08:08is pretty quickly going to lead you to an argument for becoming a vegetarian
08:13Vegetarians are people who refuse to eat animal flesh
08:22Now, most of us really do enjoy, deeply enjoy, the taste of eating animal meat, animal flesh
08:35But the kind of argument that we've just been talking about suggests, you know, that's just not good enough
08:46The mere fact that you like it, the mere fact that you like it a lot
08:50may not be a good justification for the kind of behavior that we're engaged in
08:56when we raise and kill animals for food
09:00I suppose there's really two questions we have to ask
09:03One question is, how much are you getting, how much pleasure are you getting out of eating animals
09:12Let's switch to cows or pigs, or chickens
09:16How much pleasure are you getting out of eating animal meat?
09:20And the second question is, how much suffering are we imposing on the animals when we raise them for food?
09:33Start with the first one
09:35And it's important to bear in mind that we're just talking about how much pleasure you get
09:39This isn't a question of, do you need to eat animal flesh in order to stay alive?
09:44Virtually nobody needs to eat animal flesh in order to stay alive
09:49It's just the case that most of us prefer eating animal flesh to eating various alternative plant-based foods
09:58And so the question there is, the incremental pleasure that you might get
10:03So if we go back to the case of now eating, let's say a cow
10:09As opposed to eating some plant-based alternative vegetarian diet
10:14The question isn't just, do you prefer eating meat?
10:17But the question is, how much more do you prefer eating meat?
10:21And we have to ask, how does that weigh in the balance against the suffering that we're imposing on the cow or a pig or a chicken when we raise it for food?
10:33So the second question we have to ask is, how much suffering are we imposing on a cow or a chicken or a pig when we raise it for food?
10:44The food that we eat is raised in what gets called a factory farm
10:51And the word factory here is really important
10:53The animals are not treated humanely
10:56The animals are treated like one more product
10:59Where the goal of the factory farm is to raise as many animals as quickly as possible
11:07To bring them to slaughter and get them on the market
11:11And it's really, when you start reading about these things, it's quite appalling to think about the ways in which animals get raised
11:20So, for example, pigs
11:25A female pig, who might be kept in particular so as to breed other pigs
11:31Is typically kept in a cage so small that the pig basically has no space to turn around at all
11:39I don't just mean for a couple of minutes or a few hours
11:43I mean that's how they spend their life
11:46They live their lives in a cage roughly too small to turn around, too small to stretch
11:55What about chickens?
11:56A typical chicken gets raised in what's called a battery cage
12:00That's basically no larger than a piece of paper
12:03And again, imagine spending your entire life
12:07With no room to stretch out, no room to stretch your wings
12:13No room to walk around
12:15Other chickens get raised in pens
12:18Not cages, but larger pens
12:20But they're so crowded that they wallow in their own excrement
12:23Well, I could go on and on about this
12:29The details of contemporary factory farming
12:32It's appalling
12:34But it's not just that it's horrifying to hear about it
12:37In light of what we were seeing earlier
12:40We can come to see that it's wrong
12:43It's morally wrong
12:44So there's a whole variety of other ways in which we use, abuse, mistreat animals for our own pleasure
12:53Where it's just very hard to believe that if you count animal pain suffering seriously
12:59That that's going to be justified
13:02Think about zoos
13:04At first glance you think what could be problematic about that
13:08What could be more pleasant than a day taking your children traveling to go visit the animals in a zoo
13:15But of course, zoos are simply a matter of keeping animals in cages
13:23And although modern zoos often go to some trouble to, as it were, hide the bars
13:29The fact of the matter is that zoo animals are still prisoners, still captive, still captured
13:35Kept in cages
13:37Where they don't have the opportunity to engage in the sorts of behaviors that out in the wild they would normally want to do
13:46In the zoo
13:50There's a reason why when you visit a zoo animals are almost always just lying around
13:55That's because they're deathly bored
13:58And we may enjoy seeing these exotic animals
14:01But again, that's a little bit like saying
14:03I really enjoyed listening to the cat as it shrieked in agony
14:07Or one other last example
14:09Think about animal experimentation
14:12Scientists routinely perform experiments on animals
14:18Now, I don't want to claim that none of these experiments can be morally justified
14:24Doing the relevant sorts of calculations is a tricky matter
14:32And there may be certain cases where performing certain experiments on animals
14:36Will allow us to develop certain kinds of medicines
14:39Or develop other medical techniques that may allow us to do not just some good for people
14:44But a tremendous amount of good for people
14:46To say that animals count isn't to say that you're never ever justified in harming them under any circumstances at all
14:54Still, you've got to ask yourself, we have to ask ourselves
15:00Is the advantage that we gain, is the knowledge that we gain always great enough to justify the harm that we do?
15:12At my own university, I'm somewhat embarrassed to say
15:16At my own university, Yale University
15:18Although when scientists do experiments on animals
15:21They are of course required to avoid gratuitous pain
15:25They have to give the animals adequate size cages
15:29They have to feed them
15:30If there's some way to do the experiment that would cause less pain or suffering to the animals
15:35Then they have to do it in a less painful way
15:38Is the amount of knowledge that I'm going to gain great enough to justify the suffering that I'm imposing on the animals?
15:47I think if we were to ask that question
15:50We would find that many of the experiments that we do on animals cannot actually be morally justified at all either
15:59So, let me just wrap up
16:02As we can see, I think once you take seriously the thought that animals count morally
16:09That they matter in their own right
16:11That they have moral standing
16:13That we owe things to them
16:15Then we find that many of the ways we interact with animals are simply morally unjustified
16:23If animals count, we have to change the way we interact with them
16:29That still leaves the question
16:31It's one thing to say animals count
16:33But do they count the very same way that people count?
16:37That's a question that I'll turn to next time
16:40Thanks very much
16:45Mr.
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