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00:00We're looking forward to hanging out on the River Island's guest line with our buddy Joe Shasky,
00:05obviously from the morning roast as well.
00:08Hey, Butch, what's going on, man?
00:10Cash Creek Golf, I've never played there.
00:12Maybe I might have to wiggle my way into this.
00:15I'm not a new Callaway driver.
00:17I'm actually looking for a plus one.
00:19Yeah, word is we have some pull out there at least that day.
00:22So you should come.
00:24I mean, what day is it?
00:26What day is it?
00:27What day is it?
00:27It's Saturday, June 28th.
00:32Put me down as tentative.
00:34Got to talk to the wife.
00:35Saturdays, I got to run through the missus.
00:38I don't want to get in trouble.
00:39But put me down.
00:40Put me down.
00:41That means you're a definite no.
00:43You just gave us the I'm going to try to stop by.
00:45That's a definite no.
00:48Well, I mean, if we tee it off first thing in the morning, I'm there.
00:50You know, Saturdays are for my family.
00:52I'm sorry.
00:53No, that's fair.
00:54Oh, geez.
00:55That's fair.
00:56That's why I'm bringing my family out with me as my plus one, potentially even plus two.
01:03But how come you won't treat Kyle Harrison like family?
01:06What's up with that, Shasky?
01:08What do you mean?
01:09I don't get what.
01:11Why am I all of a sudden deemed like a Kyle Harrison hater?
01:14I don't get it.
01:15No, I'm kidding.
01:16But we just read your tweet.
01:17And the way I looked at it was, I don't think this is disagreeable, but I do have questions.
01:25And the number one question I would center everything around is, wouldn't it be fair to say he's 23 and I think deserves a little bit more time before we kind of make up our mind about Kyle Harrison?
01:40Yeah, well, who said that his career is over?
01:44Like, who's jumping the gun and saying he's a bus, number one?
01:49Number two, who is saying that his career is over?
01:53I mean, I view him very much similar to like, here's a great example.
01:56I'll give you an analogy, football analogy.
01:58Alex Smith was a fine player.
02:00He was fine.
02:01He was whatever.
02:02As a number one pick, meeting all the hives, probably a little underwhelming, right?
02:06And that's kind of the way I view Kyle Harrison right now.
02:09It's not just Kyle Harrison in a vacuum.
02:11Look, it's not about one start.
02:13It's about the body of work.
02:14And he's a one-pitch guy who really can't command that fastball.
02:18When you watch, he misses wide.
02:20He misses high.
02:21He has no secondary pitch.
02:23No one is saying his career is over.
02:25This is from the same guy who watched, you know, Ryan Vogelsang bounce around and then show up and be an absolute monster late in his career in like his 30s.
02:35And he figured it out.
02:36Jason Smith famously had his best years later in life, longer in the process.
02:41I'm not saying he's done.
02:43I'm talking about where he was before he came up, how far one specifically talked about him, how the organization viewed him, how us fans viewed him, what he represented.
02:54It's been a little underwhelming.
02:55And nobody said his career is over and he's finished and he sucks.
02:59I mean, he's a fringe fourth, fifth starter right now in a very good rotation, mind you.
03:04And if he's not that, he's probably a bullpen arm.
03:07He's a big leaguer, but a top-of-the-end, you know, front-line rotation guy.
03:12Yeah, and he's only started 35 times, which is barely more than one full season of Major League starts.
03:21But I'm with you, Butch, as far as the one-pitch element of it.
03:25If you were a coach of his, and I know you're a coach of many, what pitch do you think would be a good companion to his fastball?
03:34Which, it's a good fastball.
03:36It's not elite.
03:36But what pitch would you like to see him develop to where he becomes less of a thrower and more of a pitcher?
03:42Well, I think there's just a great question.
03:44And the answer is, like, right now, it's not a curveball slider.
03:48I don't really know what that pitch is.
03:50They call it a sweeper.
03:51I'm not really sure it hangs.
03:52He can't get that over for a strike, especially early in counts.
03:56I think it's the change-up.
03:58But he hung the change-up twice last night.
04:00And it got hit last night.
04:02I actually thought it was an okay start last night.
04:04Just all things considered, you go five, he scores field.
04:07I don't love that you give up a run immediately after we scored a run.
04:11You know, a shutdown inning is really important when you're a pitcher.
04:14But, again, these ways I view him aren't off of one start.
04:18It's the totality.
04:19Look, when you close your eyes, okay, and you watch the two guys pitch, okay, or I guess open your eyes,
04:24and you watch the two guys pitch, Hayden Birdsong looks much more refined than where Kyle Harrison's at.
04:30And what's ironic is if you go back and you dig into the details of last year, their numbers are very, very similar.
04:37Yet when I watch the two of them, I watch one guy who clearly can get breaking balls over early in counts
04:43and can get ahead in counts and wipe guys away in Birdsong.
04:47And then I see another guy who struggles and he falls behind in counts, leading to him having to get into the zone predictably
04:54and guys getting two butt cheeks into it.
04:57Now, I'm just telling you, like, I've been more impressed with Birdsong, obviously he didn't have the hype,
05:01than I have Harrison.
05:02But I'm not saying that Harrison's career is over.
05:05It's also what he represented.
05:06I mean, Foreman, I found the quote today because I was like, am I tripping?
05:10He said it over and over.
05:12He's uncredible.
05:13We cannot envision any scenario where we would trade Kyle Harrison.
05:18Now, look, this isn't just the Giants.
05:20All of minor league baseball that does these evaluations had him ranked from 2023 through on
05:25as the number one left-handed prospect in baseball.
05:28You know, maybe everybody was just a little too high on him, myself included.
05:32Well, here's what I'd say, Butch.
05:34And I'm not trying to say by any stretch that you're ending his career.
05:38I'm almost wondering, no, is it too early to even start sort of assessing it in that kind of a way
05:48when you do dig in to where he's been?
05:50Because we know that last year, the guy, he lost his mechanics.
05:55He was pitching hurt.
05:57I happen to know for a fact he regrets it.
05:59He now wishes he had just shut it down because it messed him up for a while.
06:03This year, he's building arm strength back up.
06:07I'm not here to make excuses.
06:09I'm here to point out, like, I look at Landon Roop, and I'm like, ooh, I kind of like this guy.
06:14Landon's 26.
06:16Like, and I have, and here's where I really, now, this is what I want to throw at you.
06:22Because you have been, in my opinion, a very strong voice in this market with the idea of Kaminga's 22.
06:32There's raw skill there.
06:35We've got to develop it.
06:37Why can't we say the same thing about Kyle Harrison?
06:42No, I agree.
06:44The irony is, though, is that he should have been doing that development in the minor leagues.
06:48And look, this is not just a Kyle Harrison issue.
06:50Look around all the young players in the game.
06:53No one goes over, like, 115 innings in the minor leagues.
06:56So this isn't just Kyle Harrison.
06:57Everyone in the bigs, all the young guys, Jack Leiter, Harold Kumar, Kumar Rocker, excuse me, you know, the kid Chad for Milwaukee Brewers.
07:08There's multiple guys for the Chicago White Sox right now, some young players.
07:11None of these guys in the minors were going more than three or four innings at a time.
07:15I think this is more of a minor league issue overall, and the Giants obviously fell victim to it, where you don't want to stretch guys out.
07:22But, I mean, do you envision this guy throwing 150, 160 innings this year or next year at the big league level?
07:29It's probably not going to happen this year.
07:31But, like, next year, you think he's going to be ready for that?
07:33I have a hard time seeing it.
07:36Yeah, and nobody really goes 200 innings anymore other than Logan Webb, who I believe still leads baseball.
07:42And, you know, him being 23, you probably don't want to stretch him out.
07:46But I'm just looking at his minor league totals.
07:48And when he was 20, he threw 113 innings over the span of two teams, two different leagues.
07:55So maybe that's part of it, Butch, is he hasn't been stretched out enough.
07:59And I wonder if his spot right now isn't better off in the bullpen when Verlander gets healthy.
08:06Well, I would like him in the bullpen, but he's still a one-pitch guy, right?
08:10And I think they've used him, actually, pretty brilliantly because they built up his confidence.
08:15Again, yesterday wasn't the worst thing in the world.
08:16Like when Verlander comes back, it's the odd man out.
08:19Just look at the ERAs and the rotation and look at him and think about who you trust right now.
08:24That doesn't mean two months from now you don't trust him to go back into it.
08:28And we know it's a long, long season.
08:29The days of Lysitom, Payne, Bumgarner, taking 33 starts a year and just pencil that in, those days are over.
08:37But, like, I'm asking you guys right now, does he look more like Johnny Sanchez or Mad Bump?
08:42Because I was sold on Mad Bump.
08:44And I'm not saying, like, Johnny Sanchez wasn't a guy that I loved.
08:47I loved Johnny Sanchez.
08:48But that was a fringe five starter.
08:50And that's what we're looking at right now.
08:52And, yes, he needs a lot of development, Mark.
08:54Like, I don't deny any of that.
08:55And I'm not also canceling his career at all.
08:58Not even, like, no way in hell.
09:01I referenced Jason Schmidt.
09:02I referenced other guys.
09:03I mean, look at Zach Wheeler.
09:04It took him multiple years to finally meet his promise.
09:08But I would also say this.
09:09He's got to be able to hang his hat on something at the big league level.
09:13Otherwise, you're going to get sent down.
09:14And now they're getting pushed by someone like Carson Wisenhut, who I haven't seen a whole lot from.
09:18But when you sell me on the hype and it's five years, and it's not just him.
09:22It's kind of what he represents.
09:24Him and Marco.
09:24This is going to change how we view the farm and how we develop.
09:29And we're not trading anybody.
09:31This is a new regime.
09:32It's been underwhelming.
09:34And that doesn't mean his career is over.
09:36It's just, oh, I want it a little more.
09:38You're listening to 95.7 The Game, KGMZ FM, and H21 San Francisco on Odyssey Sports Station.
09:43And the home of the Golden State Warriors and Valkyries, always live on the free Odyssey app.
09:48Coming to you live from the Laughing Monk Studios.
09:50We're at Laughing Monk, brewing in Sunnyvale live after going to Niners camp today.
09:55Our buddy Shasky from the Morning Rose is joining us right now.
09:59Yeah, Joe, everything you're saying, again, as I said to you earlier today, I'm like, this is all very discussable.
10:05The tweet you said, there's only one thing that I did kind of take issue with.
10:12Why would you put Luciano's name next to it?
10:15That, to me, was the one where I'm like, to me, there is no comparison right now to the disappointment level of those two players.
10:25Luciano, quite frankly, looked like an embarrassment when he came to the bigs.
10:29Well, the reason I lumped them together is because they kind of represented the offensive and pitching version of home, right?
10:37Like, that's why I lumped them together.
10:39And we kind of lumped them together as an organization, number one and number two prospects, depending on how you want to view it.
10:45And both have been underwhelming.
10:47I guess this is a Kaminga versus James Weidman situation, if you put it out that way.
10:52I just meant more like I was disappointed in both of them.
10:54And there's levels to the disappointment, you know what I mean?
10:56Like, there's no doubt about it.
10:58Rashawn Woods is disappointing.
11:00J.J. Stokes is also disappointing, even though J.J. Stokes played for 10 years, you know?
11:04Rashawn played, like, two weeks for us, you know what I mean?
11:07So, yeah, Marco Luciano is Rashawn Woods in this analogy.
11:10But you would understand, like, Mark, you and I, I mean, I didn't want to trade either of these guys.
11:16I thought it was absurd.
11:17I couldn't wait to see them.
11:18So, I am not pretending like he told you so.
11:21No, I just, I kind of wanted a little more, you know?
11:25Like, that's all.
11:26And, again, that doesn't mean his career is over.
11:27Like, right now, let's say you're going up against Dodgers, you're going to Dodger Stadium right now.
11:31Hypothetically, you've got a healthy Verlander.
11:33I mean, isn't he the one who's out of the rotation heading into that particular series?
11:38No doubt.
11:39No doubt.
11:39I don't think it's a knock on him, though, Dips, also.
11:43By the way, I don't know that it's no doubt.
11:46I hear what you guys are saying.
11:47Oh, for me, it's no doubt.
11:48Yeah, but there's a lot that goes into this.
11:51Like, again, you're talking about a major future of the organization investment versus a 43-year-old who is definitely only here for three more months.
12:03And if there is any equality to what you're thinking about the two of them at all, like, you lean Kyle.
12:10Like, I don't know what they're going to do.
12:13I really don't.
12:15For me, I would lean toward trying to win the game.
12:17And right now, when you look at what Kyle's doing, he's throwing the fastball 70% of the time, and you're going up against a really good lineup that is probably going to eat that fastball alive.
12:27I mean, you guys are talking about Kyle's ERA.
12:30Justin's is the same.
12:31You know what I mean?
12:32He's pitched better.
12:33He's pitched better than the numbers, I would argue.
12:35And I'm not trying to keep up for Verlander.
12:37But here's the thing.
12:39And then this is maybe just me and the war wounds of being a Giants fan over the years.
12:43Kyle Sprint.
12:43I mean, if I bring up the name Solomon Torres, you know exactly what I'm talking about.
12:48Game 162, Dave Forgetty and Solomon Torres.
12:50They went with Solomon Torres.
12:52He had to bounce around.
12:53He actually had a pretty good career.
12:55You know, even Sean Estes, he had the one great year with the Giants.
12:58He underwhelmed.
12:59William Van Launche, Pat.
13:01Kevin Correa.
13:01Brad Hennessy.
13:02Jerome Williams.
13:03Jesse Fopper.
13:04I can go right down the list of guys.
13:06Tyler Beattie.
13:07Guys that I thought were going to be next generation.
13:10And then I got like Birdsong comes out of nowhere.
13:12But look here, let me also say this.
13:15Dave Fleming told us they were a week away from cutting Elliot Ramos.
13:19So baseball is very weird.
13:21Things can burn around.
13:23I mean, think about what I'm about to say.
13:24They were going to cut him.
13:25They were a week away from cutting him.
13:27They bring him up.
13:28You can make an argument he should be a back-to-back all-star.
13:30That sucks to me.
13:31Yeah, and you just never know.
13:33And that's kind of what leads me to my final question, Butch,
13:36is if you do get Kyle Harrison out of the rotation,
13:39what's better for him, to be in the bullpen or to go down to AAA
13:43and be able to tinker and develop additional pitches?
13:47That's a great question.
13:49See, this is the age-old adage.
13:52Do I want him with the big league club, with the best technology,
13:55the best trainers, against the best competition?
13:57Like, a part of me kind of still wants to see him up.
14:00I think he can learn a lot from the bullpen.
14:02I think Hayden Birchbaum learned a lot from the bullpen.
14:05I thought he was an invaluable piece for this team.
14:07And when I look at them right now, you know,
14:10Bivens obviously didn't have the greatest start last night.
14:12You can give Kyle two or three innings in a given game to be able to spell you.
14:17His career is not over.
14:18That is not what I'm saying.
14:20I hope that I'm making that clear.
14:21Because I understand where you're coming, Mark.
14:23And believe me, I know when I put it out there, people were pissed off.
14:26I don't know what you do with them.
14:28But I do know this.
14:29They have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to pitching.
14:32And, yes, one pitch could change everything for their rotation and their bullpen.
14:36Wisenhunt is knocking on the door, right?
14:38So someone's going to have to move to decide whether that is Wisenhunt,
14:42whether that is Harrison, whether that's Verlander.
14:46They've got a decision to make, and they clearly need bats.
14:49I'm not ready to surrender anything.
14:51But the days of everyone's untradeable, I'm kind of past that.
14:56Well, I agree.
14:56Yeah, I think we're all on the same page there.
14:59And possibly they need to do something real, real soon,
15:02especially with what just happened at Chapman.
15:04Hey, Butch, go to bed.
15:07I know you're on the air here in a few hours.
15:09Hey, boys, I love that the Giants are making us all love them again.
15:13Because how freaking fun was that game last night?
15:16I couldn't sleep last night.
15:18You might not be able to sleep tonight if they're in first place.
15:20They might be in first place tonight.
15:22Oh, God, could you imagine the first place Giants going down to Chavez Ravine
15:27this weekend, Father's Day, U.S. Open at Oakmont?
15:30Are you kidding me?
15:32God, I love sports.
15:33Yeah, I think you said it this morning, and I'm with you.
15:35It's DeChambeau's Open this year.
15:38DeChambeau's going to win at Oakmont.
15:39Yeah.
15:41And by the way, if I hear another Soakmont from some of the media,
15:45just, I mean, God, do we – why do we have to do this?
15:48I just – I can't wait for Sunday afternoon, boys.
15:50Have a great one.
15:51Thanks for having me on.
15:51All right.
15:52Happy Father's Day, Joe.
15:53All right.
15:54And I stand corrected.
15:55I didn't know that the Dodger-Padre game had already happened.
15:57The Dodgers have won.
15:59So the Giants are not going to be in first place.
16:02But they're not going to be in third either.