Maj Gen Prabir Chakravarty (Retd.) Additional Director General, Artillery and Advisor, BrahMos Aerospace speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the drone war in the recent Indo-Pak conflict | SAM Conversation - video Dailymotion

South Asia Monitor

Maj Gen Prabir Chakravarty (Retd.) Additional Director General, Artillery and Advisor, BrahMos Aerospace speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the drone war in the recent Indo-Pak conflict | SAM Conversation

Transcript

00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor, to discuss the weaponry

00:19used during the recent India-Pakistan conflict under Operation Sindoor.

00:29It is our pleasure to welcome Major General Prabir Chakravarty, former Additional Director

00:39General Artillery, also been a Defence Attaché at Vietnam and has been involved in an advisory

00:51capacity with BrahMos Aerospace and lastly is one of the authorities on drones.

01:00I think it may not be an exaggeration to say that Operation Sindoor was unprecedented in

01:10many aspects, in its reach and destruction it was quite unprecedented.

01:18In the use of drones, I think there is a conservative estimate that Pakistan used at least 5000

01:33Chinese made drones, not to count what they got from the other countries like, we are

01:47reported to have shot missiles to destroy Chinese drones worth 15,000 each and after

02:01cessation of firing by India, Pakistan fire is again, it may be a conservative figure,

02:09these are reportedly over a 1000 drones and I won't go any more into this but I will request

02:22General Chakravarty to start off by giving us, to start with, what all were the weapons

02:36used by us and their efficacy?

02:43Well, thank you Colonel Anil Bhatt for really giving me this opportunity to speak

02:50on a subject which is so relevant at the present moment. Firstly, before I answer your question,

02:58I must say as far as drones are concerned, two issues are very important. It starts possibly

03:05mass usage starts with the Vietnam War, it's that far back. Having personally commanded a drone

03:13with my brigade about 20 years ago, there's nothing new to the Indian environment. Firstly,

03:20it may be new as far as the media is concerned but let me put it on, to put it on track. Next is

03:275,000 drones is nothing at all. Ukraine today manufactures about 15,000 drones in one month

03:34and it's more than that. So that's the capability of Ukraine which is a new drone producer.

03:42And next thing, China has 1.23 million drones. This is the estimated figure in the open domain

03:48and as far as we, I think more than drones is now, do you have systems to counter drones?

03:54That has become very important. Drones are very easy to make, they are very easy to fly but you

04:01have to counter them. That's important. Now, you want to compare the drones? Well, I would put it

04:06that Pakistan has got mainly the Chinese drone. They've got all types of drones from China. They've

04:14got also from Turkey, the Bakhtiyar drones. These have been used in Ukraine and as far as we are

04:21concerned, I can say in one word, we have a huge number, reasonable number to tackle Pakistan.

04:30That would be a best way. We have also countermeasures and we have luckily,

04:36very luckily, one thing the Indian army doesn't do very easily is to make things,

04:41though they are possibly obsolete or have reached stages of obsolescence, to do away with them. We

04:47have held on to the L-70 and the ZU-23 guns. As a matter of fact, only I think about two to three

04:55days back, I was seeing the T-72 in action in the southern part of the Northern Command. So,

05:02one would agree that the name T-72 itself means it's a 72 version tank and now we are in 2025.

05:10So, if you calculate it straight away, 53 years, but that I would attribute to officers like you,

05:16Colonel Ali Bhatt, who have been able to keep our equipment going and they serve great purposes,

05:23particularly in the present conflict which we had. Now, the other weapons which you see,

05:30drones are basically got a wide variety, but what were used during the war,

05:35I'll sort of keeping naming them, I'll make it into two types. One was the reconnaissance drone

05:40and the second were drones which were meant for combat purposes, which had explosives,

05:47which could be termed as the kamikaze drones, that is which often are described as loitering

05:54ammunitions. You also had unmanned combat aerial vehicles that which go, which fire the weapon in

06:00combat. The loitering munition loiters around the target, having identified the target, it

06:08fires the ammunition. Well, as far as we are concerned, if we go by what are the declared

06:15stages of the battle, the first stage is obviously the killing of 26 civilians. I am taking the

06:24the how things have developed to make it simple. Possibly drones have been used even for

06:31this reconnaissance, I can tell you. Drones are so good that today you go to any marriage,

06:38you'll find drones are flying. The photographs even today in a marriage in Delhi or Mumbai

06:45are not being done by photographers but by drones. So therefore, even all these tourist places,

06:52I can assure you they must have reconnoitered. It's a well-planned operation. Let's not just

07:00call it a terrorist operation which it has been done in a very, very planned way. I think it has

07:06been rehearsed, it has been possibly practiced and even the exit plan has been made. That is phase

07:12one. Phase two is that was 22nd of April. Phase two, we come to the night of 7th May where we

07:19attacked as we are clear nine targets. This is the and in about 24 minutes, we could undertake

07:27attacks and there were automatic reactions also to it. Now, this was a combination of missiles.

07:36You had what you call the what you call loitering munitions and you had the artillery. I would call

07:42them also to be drones if you call the Excalibur round which was used by the Indian forces to

07:48attack the terrorist camps. As per satellite reports and as per foreign defence experts who

07:56have monitored these satellite reports, the attacks were highly successful. Then comes

08:03Pakistan's reaction and the reaction was they attacked your military airbases and they started

08:11extensive reckoning and this possibly on the night of 9th, they attacked four airbases as per

08:18our own statement. The four airbases which are being widely described, I can name one or two

08:24of them. Udhampur is one of them, Patankot is second and I would not get involved further.

08:31Now, this caused the Indian air force also to carry out a great action which was an offensive

08:39action, I'll put it, using both BrahMos missiles as well as the loitering munitions and they

08:48attacked 11 airfields and as per satellite indications which are again available from foreign

08:55sources, I think a lot of the airfields particularly the Noor Khan airfield which is close to the GHQ

09:03Rawalpindi as well as other airfields like Sargodha which housed many of the critical

09:11fighters, if I may say the F-16s and so many others right up to Karachi, the cantonment were

09:18attacked and this was a very very successful attack and the BrahMos missile really proved to

09:26be, again it's a drone if you ask me, it all works on artificial intelligence, it has a very

09:33small circular error of probability and you are able to hit targets well indeed.

09:41You may call it a providence because in the army one gets into jobs not because one was thinking

09:48about it but while I was posted as a major in the school of artillery after coming back from Sweden

09:56I was tasked by the commandant who used to often come to the regions who are the left in general

10:02to write on depth fires. Now this I must say is the year 1990. Now depth fires and today we are

10:11talking Colonel Anil of 2025 which is 35 years and I started work on it. The first paper was

10:18obviously not accepted, presented to a huge audience and then I had a great commander of

10:24tackling in general NC Marjan and I, we both sat down. I was a major who had just become or becoming

10:32a lieutenant colonel and I was doing the, shall I put it, the spade work and he was giving the ideas

10:39and we came to it that how important depth fires were. Well depth fires requires a lot and the

10:46drones, we had similarly a presentation of drones by the aeronautical development establishment in

10:52Bangalore in that year itself and we had a presentation on the global positioning system

10:58also by an American because the Gulf War was fought in 1990. I am taking you 35 years back

11:04that to say that these are not something which have just appeared over the horizon.

11:09About 35 years of thinking, planning in the Indian environment, not purely American or

11:14Israeli environment. So as far as the Indian mindset is concerned, maybe we didn't have

11:22all these technologies coming in, in the numbers the armed forces would have liked

11:26but definitely the thinking process was done in 1990, was very much used in 2001 during Op Parakram

11:36and also it started in Kargil where we started you know 1999 and now we have come to the present

11:42state where we are able to undertake the depth battle from own side of the border. Of course,

11:50I won't say as far as the second retaliatory offensive by the Indian Air Force and by the

11:56artillery. There were, they had to move into enemy territory and then possibly fire the brambles

12:02or maybe moved in a little bit. We don't know exactly what happened but nothing is out in the

12:07open. But this much I would say that the era has come, sir, where the depth has become very

12:14important and it has become very, very important that if you can today cause consternation in the

12:22depth areas and that's what we have been able to achieve with various elements of which have

12:30artificial intelligence as our source, you can definitely win a contest and I will leave it at

12:42that, sir. I would request you for further probing on this subject. Thank you. No, one cannot but

12:50help mentioning what you brought out that we have been, Indian Army has used a lot of equipment

13:03well beyond its, you know, the age that even the manufacturer had laid down for it.

13:11In the 1965 India-Pakistan war, the main tank of the armoured regiments which were fighting

13:20including mine was the Centurion and Pakistan army was flush with the very recently, then very

13:30recently manufactured Patton tank and they were feeling very heady and you had Ayub Khan who was

13:40saying one Pakistani soldier is equivalent to 10 of these Indian soldiers or at times even Hindu

13:51soldiers as is popularly the term used by them. Anyway, he had to eat his words because his

14:02father's regiment that is four horse, the regiment I was commissioned, that I served in,

14:12his father, Reshalda Major Mir Dag Khan served in that regiment and that regiment punished

14:19Pakistani armoured corps to the maximum. 87 tanks, 17 RCLs, recoilless guns.

14:26I mean, it made him, there are Pakistani generals who have wept and I think he was,

14:37his was not well, you know, so well known but in 1971, late General A.K. Niyazi,

14:47his weeping was quite visible. Anyway, we won't go into that. But,

14:52we, there are, in India, you know, Deaf Expos that one covered, one has come across at least

15:07six to seven arms, foreign arms manufacturers including the Soviet and Russian equipment

15:17makers who one could, you know, tell them that you owe some kind of acknowledgement

15:26to Indian aviators, to Indian gunners, to Indian, they said yes, yes, you know,

15:33before one could finish, they said yes, we know that you have utilised our equipment very

15:40effectively in all kinds of terrain and weather conditions well beyond our expectations.

15:46So, the idea here is not to, you know, keep blowing a, tom-tomming and blowing a trumpet

15:55but I think if you could throw some light, in launching Operation

16:06Sindoor, we took about 14 days and that may have amounted to about 40 odd meetings

16:13but I think we made up a lot for what should have been done, you know, for 10, 20 years.

16:26We did a fantastic, you know, exercise of surgical strikes in 2016, nine locations over 250

16:35kilometres, a stretch of 250 kilometres and 2019, we did Balakot where it was a classic

16:44use of spice ammunition but then one kept lamenting that it was, you know,

16:53a sort of a technology display and that's it. Here, we seem to have actually, you know, planned

17:03and it amounts to, I think, about 22 Balakots, nine of those terrorist camps and 11 then corrected

17:17to 13 by the Defence Minister. I mean, this is just, you know, declared. Also, we reminded them

17:30by sending the Indian Navy into the western waters. What 1971, you know, just a gentle reminder,

17:38not more than that. So, any light you would like to throw on that, please?

17:44Yeah, thank you so much, Colonel Anil, for you really brought out a few issues which I'll quickly

17:49just say which are very, very important. Though you brought out, one is you brought out the

17:54Centurion versus the Patton. I think this is cannot be and you should also say the Nat versus

18:00the Starfighters. You know, if I were to take the 65 war into perspective and you also look at the

18:07artillery guns, they almost had medium guns. We didn't have but the point you must understand

18:15which you brought out that we soldiers in the army are very passionate about our training.

18:22Yes. Since I've been operated with all of, I've commanded a unit in the armoured

18:28division and the same unit was in high altitude. You can imagine the difference in an armoured

18:34division and then after that in a strike corps, which was again an armoured division and then went

18:39to Northern Command, which is again the same. I can tell you, I have found every soldier very

18:45passionate in his work and his equipment and he treats it like his own child, if I may say.

18:53A tank man, he treats his gun and tank, you know, he will do anything for it. A gunner will do

18:59anything for the gun and the same goes to our rifle and therefore, maybe that is the reason

19:05why the original equipment manufacturers would be surprised as to how the equipment is continuing

19:11and continuing with its enthusiasm. It's like a car which you say, of course,

19:17that due to pollution control, you have got to do it by a particular period. But here we are going

19:23on with equipment and we are proving them to be right in operations. Now, this means that we are

19:30training sensibly, we are training logically and we are giving respect to the enemy. We are always

19:38keeping in mind that he is not an adversary to be taken lightly. Another issue, sir, which I would

19:43like to take from you before I can get down to the technology. I feel the start point was a little

19:50before the surgical strikes, you know, before the Orish surgical strikes. We entered Myanmar.

19:59If you take, we entered into Myanmar. According to me, I'm only going historically. I like to

20:05go always into the past and see how an army possibly been in direct raids, which have been

20:10planning in perspective. And I like to go into it, went into Myanmar. That was the first action

20:17where we went in. And thereafter, as you said, you brought out beautifully, I will not repeat them.

20:23And you'll see at each point we have extended. And maybe as the Prime Minister, as I say, the new

20:29doctrine evolves, we have to buy now more things to possibly enlarge the scope of this conflict.

20:38No doubt. There are no wars nowadays. There are only conflicts. And the scope now,

20:44it's right now the scope is from, right from the, shall we say the FCNA, I'm talking of Pakistan

20:53terms, and it extends right up to almost south of Karachi. Look at the entire, now we may have

21:01to activate more areas. You are well aware. Another thing we have learned is in 2001, we mobilized.

21:11After that, we didn't mobilize. We kept mobilizing while the operations were on,

21:16whether it was the surgical strikes posturing, whether it was Balakot, whether it's now,

21:23because in 2001, I recollect, I was in offensive code. We took a long time for the holding elements

21:31to mobilize. Now it's a simultaneous action that you do it. And as you said, the action was from

21:4022nd April to 7th, which is about roughly a fortnight, shall I say, in which you are very

21:47right. Many meetings must have taken place at various levels because you can make out that

21:55the amount you have even brought the Indian Navy, what it has done. You brought out what the tanks

22:00have done. You brought out what the air defense has done. You brought out what the artillery has

22:04done. You brought out what the people on the line of control have done. And let's also look at it,

22:09what people would have done who are occupying the line of actual control and people in the

22:14East and North. I'm sure they also would have taken a few steps forward. What I would like

22:21to suggest is possibly we need greater budgets now. Going for greater weaponry now. You know,

22:31because if we are going to enlarge the scope of the conflict, see right now...

22:36There are at least 20 more training camps of the terrorists. There are 1000 terrorists

22:44still now. See, there will be no dearth of terrorists, which you have rightly brought out.

22:49There are no dearth of terrorists. And therefore, now India also has to now prepare for

22:55a greater response. And we cannot, and don't forget while this response is going on,

23:03I was very happy today to see that people from Mumbai, your city,

23:07they have visited Pelgam. I saw a couple with a two-year-old son. This was on NDTV. I would

23:15declare on your channel, if you have your permission, that a couple from Mumbai and

23:20they said, we are not scared. I must admire that you are sitting in Mumbai. I must say a city of

23:26guns. We must understand, again, they have seen Qasab and all these people attack.

23:33They have seen many of these, what you call, blasts. And we have gone ahead from these,

23:39if I may say. We have gone ahead from this and therefore now the response, which I'm very happy

23:46that our Prime Minister has already declared it, it now needs a lot of budgeting. It needs a lot

23:52of weaponry. It needs a lot of ammunition. It needs greater, greater quantum of countermeasures

24:01in a few areas, which I would list, sir, for you on this thing. Firstly, counter drones.

24:09You cannot say that 5000, they can get 1 million for you. Today with the drones,

24:16with the technology, the counter technology must arrive.

24:19No doubt. No doubt. So then cyber has to come in in a big way. AI is already in, but cyber. And

24:25lastly, a field where we need to work, where even America is experimenting. China is possibly ahead

24:33and that's what scares me. Because when people say that the radio sets of the terrorists,

24:41we could not jam. We could not find. One is to say they didn't communicate, which cannot happen.

24:49I've been in those areas. It cannot be that you don't communicate. I've seen how they operate.

24:56So China is great at quantum. Today, two cities, Shanghai and Beijing,

25:03are connected by satellite, by quantum and quantum now cannot be, you cannot interfere with it.

25:10So we have to get into quantum. Somehow we have to, now, therefore, we have a lot of scientific

25:15tasks and defence propels the scientists to go ahead. So therefore, you have to go into this

25:23and maybe you may have to use all your weaponry, your tanks and others. Now they have to have

25:31drones with the tanks. The days are gone when the tanks, after all, each tank today, I'm just seeing

25:38that is occupied. I think you brought it up, every crew member. 4000 meters is the capability.

25:46So you give the drone to a tank troop and that gives you where it is and it engages that.

25:52Before even contact, he has to engage. Gone are the days when we could hear that no,

26:00600 to 800 meters is the normal range for tank engagements. I think they are gone.

26:06Even the Israelis have, they are not able to, without any opposition, neither the Hezbollah

26:15had tanks, nor the Hamas have tanks. But they are finding that even, let us say, minor infantry

26:22opposition has hampered the tanks in many ways. So therefore, the tanks have to have drones to get

26:30drones to get intelligence. They have to take action. And we are very fortunate that our

26:37infantry combat vehicle also has an ATGM, which has a range of about 4000 meters.

26:44So therefore, gone of 4000 meters, you'd agree nobody has the visible range. It's only drones.

26:51I'm sure I expect all the training institutions of the Indian Army, which must be,

26:59all of them must have drones and every officer, every NCO must understand.

27:03Should be, absolutely, all ranks should be capable of handling drones.

27:12Sir, if civilians, if today marriages in Delhi can be handled with drones,

27:17if today I went for a, I'm being frank with you sir.

27:20Yes, yes, yes, of course.

27:22I've seen in Mumbai, also drones are flying around, particularly the area of what that

27:28Bandra-Kotla complex is, where a lot of showcased events take place.

27:32I mean, Geo auditorium and all that is. I've seen drones flying over there, though,

27:39because Santa Cruz airport, I would say, is quite close by. So the DGCA doesn't allow the

27:46drones to go very high, but no photographs are being taken. There are low runs being made.

27:53So we have to get into drones. We have to get into AI and I think we have to move to quantum.

27:59We have great tasks ahead of us. I think, as you correctly have brought out of Sindhu,

28:06there's not a ceasefire, but a cessation of hostilities.

28:10We have to, like the terrorist plans the next action, we have to keep moving ahead of him.

28:19So we have to move ahead of not only, we have to move ahead of terrorism.

28:26We have to move ahead of Pakistan and we have to do something to catch up with China

28:32in technology. Since you asked me what we have to do, I think it's a Herculean task.

28:38It's a Herculean task, a question which you asked. It's not easy. I think we have got a lot of

28:44hard work to do. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible and it must be done for a country

28:52like ours, with the kind of threats it faces. It must be done and we have the capability.

29:01I fully agree with you, sir. We have the capability.

29:06We have the manpower. Our private industries are proved to be excellent.

29:11Our private industries are proved to be excellent. I remember being sent from the,

29:18shall I put it, from the no war, no peace zone or whatever you can call it, grey zone,

29:23to Bangalore to tell people to manufacture drones by a very, very senior appointment.

29:30And this was in the year exactly 2002 and today is 23 years and I'm happy the city of Bangalore,

29:40the way it has helped in, you know, startups making drones. Hyderabad has also started.

29:46Chennai has started. I've been to Big Bang Technologies, which produces counter drones.

29:52Now the effects has to be counter drones, but to be more on cyber and quantum has to come in.

29:59Because communications, we have to get into communications. What Field Marshal

30:06Asim Munir is talking must be known to us. If you don't get into it, you have lost the battle.

30:14Self-promoted Field Marshal.

30:17Yes. We have to get into it.

30:21Yes, yes, yes, yes.

30:23See, these are things for which you, I mean to say, require technology. You do not require

30:30somebody to be infiltrated or something. You require the right technology, you can come to

30:34know what's happening. So that is the era we are in. It's what you call a complex era.

30:44But this is the only way you will find that you will be able to continue with your

30:50development and realizing your great goals, which have been set by our esteemed government.

30:57I'd say they're very noble goals. We are seeing the development take place.

31:02I was very happy to see that the Chief Minister of Maharashtra sitting into one of the

31:08trains, which I think opened between Dahisar and some other place, a metro has just opened.

31:15It's a great thing because I found one thing that the metro in Bombay is at an elevated level

31:22and it doesn't get flooded. And even if floods take place, people will move. So the whole success

31:29lies. And when these developments take place, the military people automatically benefit.

31:37So that's what I say. So we got great tasks of technology and we have,

31:41our time is not much, but we have to keep on going at it.

31:48Thank you very much, Major Prabir Chakravarty. It was a very, very concentrated and a very important

31:59dose that you've given. Thank you very much and Jai Hind.

32:03Jai Hind, sir. Thank you.

Maj Gen Prabir Chakravarty (Retd.) Additional Director General, Artillery and Advisor, BrahMos Aerospace speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the drone war in the recent Indo-Pak conflict | SAM Conversation

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