Maj Gen Prabir Chakravarty (Retd.) Additional Director General, Artillery and Advisor, BrahMos Aerospace speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the drone war in the recent Indo-Pak conflict | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor, to discuss the weaponry
00:19used during the recent India-Pakistan conflict under Operation Sindoor.
00:29It is our pleasure to welcome Major General Prabir Chakravarty, former Additional Director
00:39General Artillery, also been a Defence Attaché at Vietnam and has been involved in an advisory
00:51capacity with BrahMos Aerospace and lastly is one of the authorities on drones.
01:00I think it may not be an exaggeration to say that Operation Sindoor was unprecedented in
01:10many aspects, in its reach and destruction it was quite unprecedented.
01:18In the use of drones, I think there is a conservative estimate that Pakistan used at least 5000
01:33Chinese made drones, not to count what they got from the other countries like, we are
01:47reported to have shot missiles to destroy Chinese drones worth 15,000 each and after
02:01cessation of firing by India, Pakistan fire is again, it may be a conservative figure,
02:09these are reportedly over a 1000 drones and I won't go any more into this but I will request
02:22General Chakravarty to start off by giving us, to start with, what all were the weapons
02:36used by us and their efficacy?
02:43Well, thank you Colonel Anil Bhatt for really giving me this opportunity to speak
02:50on a subject which is so relevant at the present moment. Firstly, before I answer your question,
02:58I must say as far as drones are concerned, two issues are very important. It starts possibly
03:05mass usage starts with the Vietnam War, it's that far back. Having personally commanded a drone
03:13with my brigade about 20 years ago, there's nothing new to the Indian environment. Firstly,
03:20it may be new as far as the media is concerned but let me put it on, to put it on track. Next is
03:275,000 drones is nothing at all. Ukraine today manufactures about 15,000 drones in one month
03:34and it's more than that. So that's the capability of Ukraine which is a new drone producer.
03:42And next thing, China has 1.23 million drones. This is the estimated figure in the open domain
03:48and as far as we, I think more than drones is now, do you have systems to counter drones?
03:54That has become very important. Drones are very easy to make, they are very easy to fly but you
04:01have to counter them. That's important. Now, you want to compare the drones? Well, I would put it
04:06that Pakistan has got mainly the Chinese drone. They've got all types of drones from China. They've
04:14got also from Turkey, the Bakhtiyar drones. These have been used in Ukraine and as far as we are
04:21concerned, I can say in one word, we have a huge number, reasonable number to tackle Pakistan.
04:30That would be a best way. We have also countermeasures and we have luckily,
04:36very luckily, one thing the Indian army doesn't do very easily is to make things,
04:41though they are possibly obsolete or have reached stages of obsolescence, to do away with them. We
04:47have held on to the L-70 and the ZU-23 guns. As a matter of fact, only I think about two to three
04:55days back, I was seeing the T-72 in action in the southern part of the Northern Command. So,
05:02one would agree that the name T-72 itself means it's a 72 version tank and now we are in 2025.
05:10So, if you calculate it straight away, 53 years, but that I would attribute to officers like you,
05:16Colonel Ali Bhatt, who have been able to keep our equipment going and they serve great purposes,
05:23particularly in the present conflict which we had. Now, the other weapons which you see,
05:30drones are basically got a wide variety, but what were used during the war,
05:35I'll sort of keeping naming them, I'll make it into two types. One was the reconnaissance drone
05:40and the second were drones which were meant for combat purposes, which had explosives,
05:47which could be termed as the kamikaze drones, that is which often are described as loitering
05:54ammunitions. You also had unmanned combat aerial vehicles that which go, which fire the weapon in
06:00combat. The loitering munition loiters around the target, having identified the target, it
06:08fires the ammunition. Well, as far as we are concerned, if we go by what are the declared
06:15stages of the battle, the first stage is obviously the killing of 26 civilians. I am taking the
06:24the how things have developed to make it simple. Possibly drones have been used even for
06:31this reconnaissance, I can tell you. Drones are so good that today you go to any marriage,
06:38you'll find drones are flying. The photographs even today in a marriage in Delhi or Mumbai
06:45are not being done by photographers but by drones. So therefore, even all these tourist places,
06:52I can assure you they must have reconnoitered. It's a well-planned operation. Let's not just
07:00call it a terrorist operation which it has been done in a very, very planned way. I think it has
07:06been rehearsed, it has been possibly practiced and even the exit plan has been made. That is phase
07:12one. Phase two is that was 22nd of April. Phase two, we come to the night of 7th May where we
07:19attacked as we are clear nine targets. This is the and in about 24 minutes, we could undertake
07:27attacks and there were automatic reactions also to it. Now, this was a combination of missiles.
07:36You had what you call the what you call loitering munitions and you had the artillery. I would call
07:42them also to be drones if you call the Excalibur round which was used by the Indian forces to
07:48attack the terrorist camps. As per satellite reports and as per foreign defence experts who
07:56have monitored these satellite reports, the attacks were highly successful. Then comes
08:03Pakistan's reaction and the reaction was they attacked your military airbases and they started
08:11extensive reckoning and this possibly on the night of 9th, they attacked four airbases as per
08:18our own statement. The four airbases which are being widely described, I can name one or two
08:24of them. Udhampur is one of them, Patankot is second and I would not get involved further.
08:31Now, this caused the Indian air force also to carry out a great action which was an offensive
08:39action, I'll put it, using both BrahMos missiles as well as the loitering munitions and they
08:48attacked 11 airfields and as per satellite indications which are again available from foreign
08:55sources, I think a lot of the airfields particularly the Noor Khan airfield which is close to the GHQ
09:03Rawalpindi as well as other airfields like Sargodha which housed many of the critical
09:11fighters, if I may say the F-16s and so many others right up to Karachi, the cantonment were
09:18attacked and this was a very very successful attack and the BrahMos missile really proved to
09:26be, again it's a drone if you ask me, it all works on artificial intelligence, it has a very
09:33small circular error of probability and you are able to hit targets well indeed.
09:41You may call it a providence because in the army one gets into jobs not because one was thinking
09:48about it but while I was posted as a major in the school of artillery after coming back from Sweden
09:56I was tasked by the commandant who used to often come to the regions who are the left in general
10:02to write on depth fires. Now this I must say is the year 1990. Now depth fires and today we are
10:11talking Colonel Anil of 2025 which is 35 years and I started work on it. The first paper was
10:18obviously not accepted, presented to a huge audience and then I had a great commander of
10:24tackling in general NC Marjan and I, we both sat down. I was a major who had just become or becoming
10:32a lieutenant colonel and I was doing the, shall I put it, the spade work and he was giving the ideas
10:39and we came to it that how important depth fires were. Well depth fires requires a lot and the
10:46drones, we had similarly a presentation of drones by the aeronautical development establishment in
10:52Bangalore in that year itself and we had a presentation on the global positioning system
10:58also by an American because the Gulf War was fought in 1990. I am taking you 35 years back
11:04that to say that these are not something which have just appeared over the horizon.
11:09About 35 years of thinking, planning in the Indian environment, not purely American or
11:14Israeli environment. So as far as the Indian mindset is concerned, maybe we didn't have
11:22all these technologies coming in, in the numbers the armed forces would have liked
11:26but definitely the thinking process was done in 1990, was very much used in 2001 during Op Parakram
11:36and also it started in Kargil where we started you know 1999 and now we have come to the present
11:42state where we are able to undertake the depth battle from own side of the border. Of course,
11:50I won't say as far as the second retaliatory offensive by the Indian Air Force and by the
11:56artillery. There were, they had to move into enemy territory and then possibly fire the brambles
12:02or maybe moved in a little bit. We don't know exactly what happened but nothing is out in the
12:07open. But this much I would say that the era has come, sir, where the depth has become very
12:14important and it has become very, very important that if you can today cause consternation in the
12:22depth areas and that's what we have been able to achieve with various elements of which have
12:30artificial intelligence as our source, you can definitely win a contest and I will leave it at
12:42that, sir. I would request you for further probing on this subject. Thank you. No, one cannot but
12:50help mentioning what you brought out that we have been, Indian Army has used a lot of equipment
13:03well beyond its, you know, the age that even the manufacturer had laid down for it.
13:11In the 1965 India-Pakistan war, the main tank of the armoured regiments which were fighting
13:20including mine was the Centurion and Pakistan army was flush with the very recently, then very
13:30recently manufactured Patton tank and they were feeling very heady and you had Ayub Khan who was
13:40saying one Pakistani soldier is equivalent to 10 of these Indian soldiers or at times even Hindu
13:51soldiers as is popularly the term used by them. Anyway, he had to eat his words because his
14:02father's regiment that is four horse, the regiment I was commissioned, that I served in,
14:12his father, Reshalda Major Mir Dag Khan served in that regiment and that regiment punished
14:19Pakistani armoured corps to the maximum. 87 tanks, 17 RCLs, recoilless guns.
14:26I mean, it made him, there are Pakistani generals who have wept and I think he was,
14:37his was not well, you know, so well known but in 1971, late General A.K. Niyazi,
14:47his weeping was quite visible. Anyway, we won't go into that. But,
14:52we, there are, in India, you know, Deaf Expos that one covered, one has come across at least
15:07six to seven arms, foreign arms manufacturers including the Soviet and Russian equipment
15:17makers who one could, you know, tell them that you owe some kind of acknowledgement
15:26to Indian aviators, to Indian gunners, to Indian, they said yes, yes, you know,
15:33before one could finish, they said yes, we know that you have utilised our equipment very
15:40effectively in all kinds of terrain and weather conditions well beyond our expectations.
15:46So, the idea here is not to, you know, keep blowing a, tom-tomming and blowing a trumpet
15:55but I think if you could throw some light, in launching Operation
16:06Sindoor, we took about 14 days and that may have amounted to about 40 odd meetings
16:13but I think we made up a lot for what should have been done, you know, for 10, 20 years.
16:26We did a fantastic, you know, exercise of surgical strikes in 2016, nine locations over 250
16:35kilometres, a stretch of 250 kilometres and 2019, we did Balakot where it was a classic
16:44use of spice ammunition but then one kept lamenting that it was, you know,
16:53a sort of a technology display and that's it. Here, we seem to have actually, you know, planned
17:03and it amounts to, I think, about 22 Balakots, nine of those terrorist camps and 11 then corrected
17:17to 13 by the Defence Minister. I mean, this is just, you know, declared. Also, we reminded them
17:30by sending the Indian Navy into the western waters. What 1971, you know, just a gentle reminder,
17:38not more than that. So, any light you would like to throw on that, please?
17:44Yeah, thank you so much, Colonel Anil, for you really brought out a few issues which I'll quickly
17:49just say which are very, very important. Though you brought out, one is you brought out the
17:54Centurion versus the Patton. I think this is cannot be and you should also say the Nat versus
18:00the Starfighters. You know, if I were to take the 65 war into perspective and you also look at the
18:07artillery guns, they almost had medium guns. We didn't have but the point you must understand
18:15which you brought out that we soldiers in the army are very passionate about our training.
18:22Yes. Since I've been operated with all of, I've commanded a unit in the armoured
18:28division and the same unit was in high altitude. You can imagine the difference in an armoured
18:34division and then after that in a strike corps, which was again an armoured division and then went
18:39to Northern Command, which is again the same. I can tell you, I have found every soldier very
18:45passionate in his work and his equipment and he treats it like his own child, if I may say.
18:53A tank man, he treats his gun and tank, you know, he will do anything for it. A gunner will do
18:59anything for the gun and the same goes to our rifle and therefore, maybe that is the reason
19:05why the original equipment manufacturers would be surprised as to how the equipment is continuing
19:11and continuing with its enthusiasm. It's like a car which you say, of course,
19:17that due to pollution control, you have got to do it by a particular period. But here we are going
19:23on with equipment and we are proving them to be right in operations. Now, this means that we are
19:30training sensibly, we are training logically and we are giving respect to the enemy. We are always
19:38keeping in mind that he is not an adversary to be taken lightly. Another issue, sir, which I would
19:43like to take from you before I can get down to the technology. I feel the start point was a little
19:50before the surgical strikes, you know, before the Orish surgical strikes. We entered Myanmar.
19:59If you take, we entered into Myanmar. According to me, I'm only going historically. I like to
20:05go always into the past and see how an army possibly been in direct raids, which have been
20:10planning in perspective. And I like to go into it, went into Myanmar. That was the first action
20:17where we went in. And thereafter, as you said, you brought out beautifully, I will not repeat them.
20:23And you'll see at each point we have extended. And maybe as the Prime Minister, as I say, the new
20:29doctrine evolves, we have to buy now more things to possibly enlarge the scope of this conflict.
20:38No doubt. There are no wars nowadays. There are only conflicts. And the scope now,
20:44it's right now the scope is from, right from the, shall we say the FCNA, I'm talking of Pakistan
20:53terms, and it extends right up to almost south of Karachi. Look at the entire, now we may have
21:01to activate more areas. You are well aware. Another thing we have learned is in 2001, we mobilized.
21:11After that, we didn't mobilize. We kept mobilizing while the operations were on,
21:16whether it was the surgical strikes posturing, whether it was Balakot, whether it's now,
21:23because in 2001, I recollect, I was in offensive code. We took a long time for the holding elements
21:31to mobilize. Now it's a simultaneous action that you do it. And as you said, the action was from
21:4022nd April to 7th, which is about roughly a fortnight, shall I say, in which you are very
21:47right. Many meetings must have taken place at various levels because you can make out that
21:55the amount you have even brought the Indian Navy, what it has done. You brought out what the tanks
22:00have done. You brought out what the air defense has done. You brought out what the artillery has
22:04done. You brought out what the people on the line of control have done. And let's also look at it,
22:09what people would have done who are occupying the line of actual control and people in the
22:14East and North. I'm sure they also would have taken a few steps forward. What I would like
22:21to suggest is possibly we need greater budgets now. Going for greater weaponry now. You know,
22:31because if we are going to enlarge the scope of the conflict, see right now...
22:36There are at least 20 more training camps of the terrorists. There are 1000 terrorists
22:44still now. See, there will be no dearth of terrorists, which you have rightly brought out.
22:49There are no dearth of terrorists. And therefore, now India also has to now prepare for
22:55a greater response. And we cannot, and don't forget while this response is going on,
23:03I was very happy today to see that people from Mumbai, your city,
23:07they have visited Pelgam. I saw a couple with a two-year-old son. This was on NDTV. I would
23:15declare on your channel, if you have your permission, that a couple from Mumbai and
23:20they said, we are not scared. I must admire that you are sitting in Mumbai. I must say a city of
23:26guns. We must understand, again, they have seen Qasab and all these people attack.
23:33They have seen many of these, what you call, blasts. And we have gone ahead from these,
23:39if I may say. We have gone ahead from this and therefore now the response, which I'm very happy
23:46that our Prime Minister has already declared it, it now needs a lot of budgeting. It needs a lot
23:52of weaponry. It needs a lot of ammunition. It needs greater, greater quantum of countermeasures
24:01in a few areas, which I would list, sir, for you on this thing. Firstly, counter drones.
24:09You cannot say that 5000, they can get 1 million for you. Today with the drones,
24:16with the technology, the counter technology must arrive.
24:19No doubt. No doubt. So then cyber has to come in in a big way. AI is already in, but cyber. And
24:25lastly, a field where we need to work, where even America is experimenting. China is possibly ahead
24:33and that's what scares me. Because when people say that the radio sets of the terrorists,
24:41we could not jam. We could not find. One is to say they didn't communicate, which cannot happen.
24:49I've been in those areas. It cannot be that you don't communicate. I've seen how they operate.
24:56So China is great at quantum. Today, two cities, Shanghai and Beijing,
25:03are connected by satellite, by quantum and quantum now cannot be, you cannot interfere with it.
25:10So we have to get into quantum. Somehow we have to, now, therefore, we have a lot of scientific
25:15tasks and defence propels the scientists to go ahead. So therefore, you have to go into this
25:23and maybe you may have to use all your weaponry, your tanks and others. Now they have to have
25:31drones with the tanks. The days are gone when the tanks, after all, each tank today, I'm just seeing
25:38that is occupied. I think you brought it up, every crew member. 4000 meters is the capability.
25:46So you give the drone to a tank troop and that gives you where it is and it engages that.
25:52Before even contact, he has to engage. Gone are the days when we could hear that no,
26:00600 to 800 meters is the normal range for tank engagements. I think they are gone.
26:06Even the Israelis have, they are not able to, without any opposition, neither the Hezbollah
26:15had tanks, nor the Hamas have tanks. But they are finding that even, let us say, minor infantry
26:22opposition has hampered the tanks in many ways. So therefore, the tanks have to have drones to get
26:30drones to get intelligence. They have to take action. And we are very fortunate that our
26:37infantry combat vehicle also has an ATGM, which has a range of about 4000 meters.
26:44So therefore, gone of 4000 meters, you'd agree nobody has the visible range. It's only drones.
26:51I'm sure I expect all the training institutions of the Indian Army, which must be,
26:59all of them must have drones and every officer, every NCO must understand.
27:03Should be, absolutely, all ranks should be capable of handling drones.
27:12Sir, if civilians, if today marriages in Delhi can be handled with drones,
27:17if today I went for a, I'm being frank with you sir.
27:20Yes, yes, yes, of course.
27:22I've seen in Mumbai, also drones are flying around, particularly the area of what that
27:28Bandra-Kotla complex is, where a lot of showcased events take place.
27:32I mean, Geo auditorium and all that is. I've seen drones flying over there, though,
27:39because Santa Cruz airport, I would say, is quite close by. So the DGCA doesn't allow the
27:46drones to go very high, but no photographs are being taken. There are low runs being made.
27:53So we have to get into drones. We have to get into AI and I think we have to move to quantum.
27:59We have great tasks ahead of us. I think, as you correctly have brought out of Sindhu,
28:06there's not a ceasefire, but a cessation of hostilities.
28:10We have to, like the terrorist plans the next action, we have to keep moving ahead of him.
28:19So we have to move ahead of not only, we have to move ahead of terrorism.
28:26We have to move ahead of Pakistan and we have to do something to catch up with China
28:32in technology. Since you asked me what we have to do, I think it's a Herculean task.
28:38It's a Herculean task, a question which you asked. It's not easy. I think we have got a lot of
28:44hard work to do. It's not easy, but it's certainly possible and it must be done for a country
28:52like ours, with the kind of threats it faces. It must be done and we have the capability.
29:01I fully agree with you, sir. We have the capability.
29:06We have the manpower. Our private industries are proved to be excellent.
29:11Our private industries are proved to be excellent. I remember being sent from the,
29:18shall I put it, from the no war, no peace zone or whatever you can call it, grey zone,
29:23to Bangalore to tell people to manufacture drones by a very, very senior appointment.
29:30And this was in the year exactly 2002 and today is 23 years and I'm happy the city of Bangalore,
29:40the way it has helped in, you know, startups making drones. Hyderabad has also started.
29:46Chennai has started. I've been to Big Bang Technologies, which produces counter drones.
29:52Now the effects has to be counter drones, but to be more on cyber and quantum has to come in.
29:59Because communications, we have to get into communications. What Field Marshal
30:06Asim Munir is talking must be known to us. If you don't get into it, you have lost the battle.
30:14Self-promoted Field Marshal.
30:17Yes. We have to get into it.
30:21Yes, yes, yes, yes.
30:23See, these are things for which you, I mean to say, require technology. You do not require
30:30somebody to be infiltrated or something. You require the right technology, you can come to
30:34know what's happening. So that is the era we are in. It's what you call a complex era.
30:44But this is the only way you will find that you will be able to continue with your
30:50development and realizing your great goals, which have been set by our esteemed government.
30:57I'd say they're very noble goals. We are seeing the development take place.
31:02I was very happy to see that the Chief Minister of Maharashtra sitting into one of the
31:08trains, which I think opened between Dahisar and some other place, a metro has just opened.
31:15It's a great thing because I found one thing that the metro in Bombay is at an elevated level
31:22and it doesn't get flooded. And even if floods take place, people will move. So the whole success
31:29lies. And when these developments take place, the military people automatically benefit.
31:37So that's what I say. So we got great tasks of technology and we have,
31:41our time is not much, but we have to keep on going at it.
31:48Thank you very much, Major Prabir Chakravarty. It was a very, very concentrated and a very important
31:59dose that you've given. Thank you very much and Jai Hind.
32:03Jai Hind, sir. Thank you.