- 6/10/2025
Desh Kapoor, Atlanta, US-based geopolitical observer and analyst, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on how India wrought devastation on Pakistani military infrastructure during Op Sindoor | SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor, India's accuracy in targeting
00:17Pakistan. A lot has been commented about this. It's a pleasure to welcome Mr. Desh Kapoor,
00:32who is an MBA and he is a senior person in information technology but has his heart and his heart pulls
00:51his mind also into geopolitics and culture. He has been making some very incisive comments
01:06and analysis on, you know, on recent events as they had during Operation Sindhoor. And
01:20of course, much more before that. But it's a very horrendous act by Pakistani terrorists
01:38who, you know, this is going like an ordinary terrorist attack. They came to Pahelka, you
01:51know, a very, very popular tourist destination in Jammu and Kashmir. And at the right time,
02:01you know, from the point of view of the weather. And it was 26 males. One of them was the pony
02:16owner, one of the pony owners. And another one was from Nepal. The other 24 were Indian males.
02:25Many of them recently married and with their, you know, honeymooning with their wives. When these
02:37absolutely, you know, in a medieval fashion, they asked, they asked these, you know, males to strip
02:50their trousers as certain whether they are Muslim or non-Muslim and then shoot them in the, you know, on the forehead
03:00and in between the eyes. And in some cases asking, what are you, you know, Hindu or Muslim? And when one wife
03:10would just become a widow said, look, kill me also, they just go tell Modi.
03:20To that effect. It created the, it's not just a rude shock, but an overwhelming anger throughout the country.
03:36The Prime Minister with his three ministers, the Home Minister, External Affairs Minister and the Defence Minister,
03:52National Security Adviser, the Chief of Defence Staff, Chiefs of the Army, Navy and Air Force.
04:00They've had a number of meetings over the next 14 days, after which they, it was announced that Operation Sindur
04:16has been launched. Sindur in this case was a very, very significant term. A little pinch of vermilion powder,
04:26which is put on the forehead or in the parting of hair in the case of brides. And if their husband dies,
04:38they, it's wiped off and never, never worn again. And all I can say is that I think in, in launching,
04:52planning Sindur, Operation Sindur, the Prime Minister and, you know, the planners, they made up for a lot of
05:04what was not done for the last decade or more. And, you know, because it's every terrorist attack that is launched,
05:20it's asymmetric warfare. It's asymmetric warfare. Four or five terrorists come and they keep, you know, they engage a company or two companies of troops or, you know, police, which is a couple of hundred people at least, if not more.
05:40And, it is also very, it was also disturbing was that just a few days before this attack, this Asim Munir, the general who got promoted to the rank of field marshal,
06:08the second field marshal, the second field marshal in Pakistan. And that too after, after his army got a walloping and did not even have the, you know, to have, you know, anything in itself to beat the enemy back.
06:29And as, and it's not very, very surprising that from, there was a host of misinformation, disinformation, fake news, purchase news, and what have you.
06:51The, the damage that was done from the night of 7th, pre-down hours of 7th May was nine terrorist hideouts completely pulverized.
07:12Then, and it was, it was conveyed by India that we do not, we are only aiming for terrorist assets, not any other civilian, not any other military.
07:29However, its military. However, its military opened up on Indian civilians. And they followed an exchange there.
07:38But what followed later was 11 military airfields of Pakistan's armed forces, mainly a force and even, even their army, which later on was, was, was acknowledged by Pakistan.
08:05Pakistan, they added seven more. So, suppose, 18 airfields which were targeted quite accurately. And, but the kind of, you know, reports that emanated were, were, were full of, the, the ones which, you know, were meant to create doubts.
08:29Doubts, and, and it's, it's, it's a pity that, we, we haven't, you know, there's no doubt of, the, the political opposition leaders also who, who, who are, who are no less than, no less than, no less than, you know, no less than, you know, no less inimical.
08:50Mr. Desh Kapoor, I request you to make your opening comments on our accuracy and how it
09:07was viewed because I feel it's very interesting to get an expert commentator who is based
09:19in the US as you are. Please. Thank you, sir. Thank you, Colonel, but so much for calling me
09:29to your esteemed platform. I'm really thankful and honored. So actually, you know, I've been
09:37going through a lot of different sources of information. Based on that, I've tried to piece
09:43together, you know, like my thoughts and understanding of how things are, including,
09:50you know, open source intelligence handles on social media, which have been sharing like
09:57different angles and perspectives and things like that. Right. And then control systems and things
10:06like that. So basically, you know, on the night of May 9th, India, the Indian Air Force actually
10:14attacked the Noorkha Air Base. Now, Noorkha Air Base is there. It has a lot of things. It has,
10:22it's, you know, AVAC, ARI. It has a lot of other, you know, aircrafts, but that is, that is important.
10:31But what is critical is what it has under, like under the air base. So there is like something
10:37called the HDBT. So HDBTs are the hardened, deeply buried targets. So these hardened, deeply buried
10:45targets are actually, you know, military facilities, which are very, very, you know, specific, because
10:55they actually are used to survive kinetic and even nuclear strikes. And they include command and
11:04control bunkers. They include the nuclear weapons storage sites. They have ballistic missile silos,
11:12air defense and radar stations and underground aircraft hangars and tunnels. Right. So, so it's a,
11:18you know, like it has reinforced concrete, it has steel, it has a lot of things. And generally,
11:24they are more than a hundred feet deep and they are like very hardened. And you know, there is a
11:33shielding also there for, you know, for EMP ammunition going off nuclear, biological, or even
11:41chemical. Now, what that also means is that like, it needs to have its air conditioning and things like
11:50that really nice, because otherwise it will be a big problem. So they are very specific, you know,
11:57companies which actually like build these. There's Bechtel in US. There is a China's China State
12:05Construction Engineering Corporation. There is Lassen and Tubro L&D that India has. The Ordnance Factory
12:12Board, the DRDO, is also, also works on the hardened storage and launch facilities that India has.
12:19And then there is General Dynamics, there is, and Raytheon, you know, they work together. And from
12:26Israel, there is Rafel, R-A-F-E-L, not the French Rafel. So there is a difference. So this is Rafel
12:34Advanced Defense Systems from Israel. Now, some of the, you know, commentators have said that even
12:43General Electric may have been involved in the manufacturing of, or the construction of this.
12:48General Electric is generally involved in, you know, things like say power generation, you know,
12:55and things like that. So if they would have been involved, what they would have probably done is
13:00create the power systems, you know, and the turbine and HVAC technology, which takes care of the entire
13:06air conditioning and things like that. And also sensor and grid like integration, which,
13:12you know, involves AI monitoring and, and all that, you know, relay stuff. So, so they would not be
13:23involved in the reinforced concrete superstructures or steel and things like that, that would be
13:27something that say somebody like General Dynamics or, you know, LNT, or, you know, Bechtel would be
13:35doing. So, so in that sense, if you see these HDBTs are the last line of defense. Now, what happens is
13:46that they have, the Pakistanis have been building these HDBTs over the last many years. And by some count,
13:55they are over 20 right now in Pakistan. There's one, there was one in Mureed, Bholari and things
14:04like, and, you know, like even under Karachi and like Noor Khan was obviously there under like other
14:12places, other cities that Pakistan has. So, so these are very important because to breach them,
14:20you either need like bunker busters that, you know, America has, or like hit, you know,
14:28sequential tandem bombing, you know, like to create that burrowing effect so that it can actually go
14:34deeper or earth penetrating nukes that go in. You could also use cyber or EMP attacks, and then,
14:42you know, use some kind of way to get into the HVAC through a thermobaric bombs or gasification so
14:51that you can like gas the people inside, you know, like just cook them. So I think from all the sources
15:00that have talked about, there's a defense news, there is Caps India, there's other like people who have
15:06talked about this. They seem to think and like, even though, you know, the open source, the social
15:14media handles, they are talking about how the Indian Air Force actually, you know, bombed, like in a way
15:23that the bomb actually went through a 45 centimeter, like HVAC went all the way down to the main area.
15:30And that's where it may have acted as a thermobaric bomb. Now, like whether it was a thermobaric or not,
15:39or whether it was a variation of the Spice 2000 that, you know, India use in Balakot,
15:45the impact of that bomb was pretty huge, like in a way that it, you know, like even like pushed the
15:55ceiling up. And like, that is very interesting in the sense that it is such a hardened steel,
16:03hardened concrete to, to break that ceiling takes a lot. To push it up would take quite a bit of power
16:13for that kind of power to have been generated within that area. It would have been a pretty strong bomb
16:21that would have totally obliterated everything like within that, like entire facility. So,
16:30so that kind of, you know, attack takes a lot, a lot of, you know, skill, a lot of knowledge,
16:41a lot of information, a lot of AI work, and, you know, human intelligence, and like,
16:49somebody would have, somebody would have gone through and taken the, you know, gotten the
16:57architectural plans of that area, known where the shaft is, how it, you know, goes, which shaft
17:06actually goes to the main hall. And the, the pinpointing of that vent would have been so precise
17:15from that airplane, like which actually went, and would have been sent, you know, the bomb would
17:23have been sent at the right time in the right way to pinpoint it. That would have taken a lot of
17:29work, both intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance. You know, all those assets would
17:36have been used to actually like create that kind of, you know, attack, which, which would have been
17:43almost flawless, right, with zero error, because there was not much, you know, like room for error
17:53there. Like if you like, remember the Balakot attack, like that was just a few inches wide.
17:59You know, that hole through which the bomb actually went down and like just baked everyone in there.
18:04So, so this, these kinds of attacks is something that India is becoming more and more, you know,
18:11adept at, especially the Indian Air Force. So, so if you see, you know, that is where,
18:20like, like one marvels at how the Indian Air Force coordinated everything, because this was not just
18:27the pilot who was doing it. This was not just the systems on board the aircraft, which was doing it,
18:33but also things which were going on, on the ground, on how they actually pieced together all the
18:40intelligence, human intelligence, you know, AI intelligence, you know, signal intelligence,
18:47everything together, like in a way that they could actually create and form this whole,
18:54you know, attack to be so precise and so powerful that it created the,
19:01the impact that it did. And, and also, you know, many sources have talked about this and this is
19:06very, this seems very plausible because like it was, you know, at that time, Pakistan Air Force and
19:15Pakistan's entire command and control. See, Noor Khan is actually a C4I, you know, command and control
19:23computers and infrastructure, you know, and, and, and intelligence. So a command control communications,
19:31computers and intelligence facility, it, it actually, it's a centralized control, right?
19:37It actually controls everything. There's, you know, real time communication across, they do,
19:43you know, like computational algorithms to make sure like whatever is going on anywhere in,
19:49in the Indian subcontinent, whatever they are, you know, privy to, they actually bring it together
19:55and like make sense out of that through the computers. So, so it was C4I facility, that C4I
20:03facility to have been obligated the way it was done, it almost would have made them completely blind
20:11after that. Because like, imagine if their chief of staff after that, and he was probably hiding in
20:18a bunker anyways. If from that bunker, he wanted to actually give command, that command will go nowhere
20:27because the C4I was gone, right? So, so, so the entire work that was done was so, you know,
20:39like, it is like, like everything, like it's a hub and spoke, you know, C4I is the hub,
20:43everything else is a spoke. They actually took out the hub. So the spokes were rendered useless.
20:49So in that sense, you know, in terms of how the battle management was done was fascinating,
20:57like really fascinating for a person, like for a lay person like me, who has not been in the forces,
21:05but has tried to observe and try to understand things that go on like with, you know, these, you know,
21:12battle plans and geopolitics, because my area of interest is geopolitics, how different forces and
21:20different countries and different armies and different people, even politicians, like work together
21:27or work against each other and how they take the decisions that they take.
21:31There are things which like may not seem very, you know, apparent, but if you put together four or
21:39five different variables and start game playing them, you'll find that things start making sense.
21:45So, so my, my interest is always to actually bring in as many variables as I can pertaining to that
21:55situation and then start thinking on that. So in this case, you know, like what I've, you know,
22:03what I've been thinking is that if their main C4I has been taken out so, so fully or so completely,
22:13then how are they planning for the next, like for the next round of this whole thing,
22:20because there will be a next round, you know, it is not done. Our prime minister, you know,
22:26India's prime minister has said, you know, very clearly, this was just pause. This was not finished.
22:31If this was just a pause and not the end, then there is going to be a subsequent sequel.
22:37Whenever that sequel happens, the question is, how are they actually preparing for that?
22:42Uh, and, uh, how, um, how the Indian air force, the C like basically in the coming days, uh, you know,
22:54the, uh, the impact of the, the infantry or the artillery, like may not be as much as like that is like
23:04as much as say the air force or the Navy. And like, even in the, the army, uh, uh, you know,
23:11divisions, their entire way of working would be changing. So how are they actually working
23:16together? That is something that one needs to actually think through. And, uh, you know,
23:21it is not something that, uh, like most of the commentators on social media or even mainstream
23:27media are really discussing in detail. And then, and that is a sad thing.
23:34What do you mean by discussing in detail? And that's a sad thing.
23:38Like what I mean is that like, if you really, uh, you know, look at what is going on, uh, you know,
23:44the discussions that are going on in the mainstream media, they are pretty, uh, shallow. They don't ask
23:50like the difficult questions. Uh, they don't ask like deeper questions on like, like what will be the
23:57next thing? Because, uh, you're dying. At least do you think it, um, do you think then the point went
24:07through the, the, for this kind of, um, for this kind of a horrendous, uh, attack, this is the kind
24:16of punishment you will get. And that India has the right to defend itself.
24:24Right. So.
24:25We've used offensive, we've used offensive defense, but this is, this is, it was defending ourselves.
24:32Right.
24:33And after so many hundreds of terrorist attacks, this is a long overdue kind, a very long overdue
24:41response that came.
24:44And, uh, see the, like, I totally agree with you. And, uh, the thing is that, uh, like India
24:52still had a very measured way of escalation. Like, you know, after the Pelgram, their attacks
24:58was not on the military targets, their attack was not on the civil targets, their attack were on the
25:03terrorists. And that was made very clear to the Pakistani establishment. And yet they, uh, they
25:10wanted to avenge the attacks on the terrorist targets by actually involving and engaging their
25:17own military assets, which was the sad thing because once they went into the military, you know,
25:24engagement, uh, you know, arena or realm, after that things just go their own way then. And in that
25:31sense, uh, targeting the air bases, which are the hubs of all the information and all the, um, the
25:40conversions of, uh, uh, uh, you know, actions or the kinetic actions that Pakistan would be taking was
25:47actually the logical way out. So, uh, so in that sense, I think that India did a smart thing by going
25:54there. Now, one of the things, uh, you know, that I've been studying for the last few days is, uh, between,
26:02uh, June 1st and, uh, you know, 5th, you know, a little before like June 1st and like June 5th and 6th,
26:14there have been over 30 shallow and small earthquakes near Karachi itself. And also in near, uh,
26:23Kwaidabad and, uh, uh, Malir and other, uh, you know, areas now, like they are saying that the, uh,
26:33Lundi, if I may please, uh, just a very brief interruption. What, there's some few tremors
26:40on the 10th morning, 9th, between 9th and 10th also.
26:49So, uh, so that, uh, so now like, let's understand how these kind of, uh, tremors actually like,
26:57like what they signify. So, uh, between June 1st and June 6th, like those, uh, you know, five,
27:04six days, like I've said, they were, uh, there were 13 tremors in just 36 hours itself.
27:11The magnitude was around 1.5 to 3.6. It's very low intensity, but what was interesting is that the
27:19clustering of so many in such a short time, over 30 of them, uh, happening in the same, uh,
27:28localized zone like Karachi is very, very interesting because that can only happen
27:33if there's a volcano around and there's no volcano around Karachi. So what was going on?
27:39So, and there have been, you know, like, like similarly around, uh, some only near Quetta,
27:46you know, air base, Masroor and Malir condonement in Karachi, and also the, uh, the nuclear power
27:52plant. So, and, and then, you know, very interestingly in Malir, which is a condonement
27:58area, there was a 3.6 magnitude, uh, quake there, a jail, actually, uh, the structure broke 216 inmates
28:08actually ran out, including some terror, uh, uh, you know, suspects now, like, like, was this, uh,
28:16uh, uh, you know, really something that happened that, uh, you know, it fell down and that is why,
28:21or was it all staged? Because like, once the inmates like run out, the entire media is focused
28:28on that. Like there's, you know, it's a great way of diverting the attention and it's a great way of
28:33creating chaos also to mask the military movements that are going on. And also to kind of test, uh,
28:41the psychological readiness of the masses, right. How are they thinking now?
28:46Now the people have talked about how the Lundi fault line, you know, there's a Lundi fault line
28:51there in, uh, you know, near Karachi. Right. So that could be like one of the, uh, uh, you know,
28:59that could have been like suddenly active after decades, but the point is like, that seems very,
29:05like that may seem plausible, but it, uh, like, does not make sense because the statistical, uh, you know,
29:13like, uh, like, like variety of having 30 plus tremors in just one, uh, metro zone that, that seems
29:24totally off. So, so what could have been happening it, you know, such shallow, such, uh, uh, you know,
29:34continuous, uh, you know, quakes or tremors are, uh, like almost never because of the tectonic
29:40shifts. They are probably because either like some testing is going on or there is some tunneling going
29:48on. So, so my thought is that both of these combination of both of these could be going on
29:54in the sense that they could be actually creating some more HDPTs, uh, there through, uh, you know,
30:02tunneling and, uh, blasting some of the rocks and trying to like work that out. And the other thing
30:08is that they may also be testing that tactical, uh, you know, nuclear deployment, like as well,
30:15you know, also trying to see how, uh, like they can try and do, uh, uh, you know, nuclear simulation
30:24tests, which can go all the way, except the final stage, right. So that they can test and make sure
30:29that their nuclear, uh, you know, stuff is working. So the full detonation may not be happening, but the
30:36rest of this, you know, like sequence will be like tested out just to make sure that, uh, they are ready
30:43for it. And also they, it could also be possible that they are actually deploying some of their missile
30:49systems, uh, like, you know, and they are trying to create tunnels so that, uh, like they can, uh,
30:56be used in a very short, uh, you know, deployment, uh, sequence. Uh, so those are two things,
31:04you know, uh, or two or three things that make sense to me, you know, one trying to create, um,
31:10the HDPTs and also tunneling for creating, uh, you know, more underground, uh, transportation
31:16system as well. And then, uh, you know, uh, testing out doing the simulation test for the nuclear,
31:22uh, uh, you know, bombs and also like trying to deploy their missiles. But what is the most
31:30interesting thing is that these are happening right under some of the most densely populated cities of
31:37Pakistan, Kwaitabad, Karachi, you know, uh, Quetta, Sargoda and like, uh, you know, Islamabad. So,
31:47so ninth and 10th that we were, uh, uh, that you brought up, sir, uh, like that may also have
31:53been like, probably they were, they were thinking of testing out or maybe that, uh, those kinds of
31:59tactical nukes may have been hit. So both of these, like two things could have been there,
32:04but right now, you know, uh, the reason of having so many quakes in such a short period of time at
32:14such shallow, uh, you know, uh, depths. It's something of Pakistan's armed forces doing.
32:22Absolutely. And I think like what is most disturbing to me is that they are probably following the Hamas
32:28model that if they are doing all this under Karachi, and if that is where the deployment
32:34of missiles would be, that if they actually send out missiles, you know, that is where they go out
32:39from, then India will be forced to actually attack those areas, which are right under Karachi itself,
32:45or right under Quetta or right under Sargoda or right under Kwaitabad. That is a very, very,
32:52very serious thing because if in Gaza, they, you know, Hamas actually uses, uh, you know,
32:59very often uses, uh, the normal civilian areas to build their, uh, you know, tunnels and facilities
33:06right under them. So it's very difficult to hit. These guys are using almost the same strategy
33:12and it is going to be very tough unless and until India hits with bunker busters in Karachi itself.
33:18So, so you understand the kind of, uh, uh, you know, uh, the absolute horrible mindset
33:29like these guys are using is like, like beyond imagination, because I think the Karachi and the
33:35other folks, people living there, their populations should start pushing back. They should say that
33:42keep these things out of our areas because they are the ones who are going to be obliterated.
33:48And they are going to be used as cannon fodder. I don't know whether they are on. See,
33:53ultimately at the end of the day, Pakistan is not a Muslim country. Pakistan is actually a Sunni,
34:03Sunni Punjabi state. The Punjabi is there. They are the ones who actually, uh, rule and, uh, you know,
34:11uh, lead everything. They are the, uh, they are there in like cricket. They, they rule cricket. They
34:17rule, you know, armed forces. They, uh, rule the establishment. Karachi anyways, they don't care.
34:23Even in cricket, they don't care. Uh, so they don't give a, uh, uh, you know, damn about that.
34:29Yes, I'm sorry. No, Desh, um, it's, it's, um, it's a great, it's great to be hearing all this from you
34:41because, um, um, you, whatever you're giving is, you know, it's coming from, um, um, it's coming from
34:50open sources, uh, sources which, uh, you know, um, um, in the Indian government, the Indian armed forces,
34:59there are only, we could only come out with measured, uh, statements, uh, but now particularly
35:06what you've told us about what has happened between the, uh, you know, 1st and 6th of, uh, June is
35:13indeed very disturbing. And I trust that all concerned are, you know, they, they are surprised
35:22of it and, uh, are, are affecting all that. Meanwhile, um, thank you very much. Thank you
35:30very much and all the best to you. Jai Hind. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Jai Hind.