General MM Naravane (Retd.), former Indian Army Chief, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on his new book ‘The Cantonment Conspiracy’ | SAM Conversation
00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation, a program of South Asia Monitor.
00:14There is an interesting book, The Contonement Conspiracy, authored by General Manoj Mukund
00:26Narwaneh, a former Indian Army Chief, and Narwaneh was commissioned in the Army in June 1980
00:38in the Seek Light Infantry, 7th Battalion, the Seek Light Infantry, and has seen sufficient,
00:47more than sufficient service against both the Chinese and the Pakistanis.
00:53Chinese on the line of actual control and the Pakistanis on the line of control.
01:07One must commend his flair as a writer.
01:12This is actually his second book.
01:16His first book is Four Stars of Destiny.
01:21It is a memoir which was sent for release in 2024 but has been delayed owing to a review
01:35book by the defence ministry which is generally standard operating procedure for books authored
01:42by former high ranking officers.
01:49The Contonement Conspiracy is a nice racy thriller set in a military environment and its two
02:06main characters are two recently commissioned officers from the National Defence Academy and
02:16then in the Indian Military Academy, one of whom is a lady officer.
02:22And the timing of this book is quite appropriate because this book has been released on about
02:32about barely two months ago and barely a month ago on 30th of May in the National Defence Academy,
02:4717 lady cadets passed out for the first time.
02:54And these in another year's time they will become officers.
02:59So General Narwaneh's book is sent in this time and he has, it's very interesting that, you know,
03:15the lady officers who started coming into the armed forces, Army Navy Air Force as officers in 1992,
03:27initially were only in non-fighting arms and still are in the Army at least in non-fighting arms,
03:36direct fighting arms, but they are in support arms, like the engineers, the, some, you know,
03:48regiments of the artillery and, you know, all others but not the infantry.
03:58Here General Narwaneh as the author has gone ahead and commissioned, shown that one lady officer has been commissioned in the infantry also.
04:12And it's, it's a nice, racy story.
04:17Without going into too much, I'll request General Narwaneh to tell us, bring us, you know, to whatever led him to come so far.
04:31Good evening and thank you Colonel Bhatt for that very fine introduction and pleasure to be speaking to you.
04:41And to the South Asia Monitor.
04:46This talk of ours has been long overdue.
04:51I'm glad that we have finally been able to schedule it in between all my travels here and there.
05:04You have quite rightly said that, you know, I've said this book with the women cadets in mind.
05:12And one of the reasons for doing that was that while I was in service, when I had gone to the NDA for their passing out parade in the month of April, that year it was earlier because they were still catching up with that COVID cycle.
05:30Yes.
05:31It happened to be in end of April, just before I retired.
05:35And during the interaction with the media, with the press, after the parade over a cup of tea, one of the reporters had asked me that, when can we expect the first ex-NDA woman officer to become the chief?
05:54So, I had to stop for a while and do some quick mathematics and I said it will take only about 40 years or so.
06:07That's because I got commissioned in 1980.
06:08That's because I got commissioned in 1980.
06:09I became a chief in 2020.
06:11That's almost 40 years.
06:12Yeah.
06:13But you know, that planted that seed in my mind that why not, when we're writing this story, base it around the first ex-NDA woman to get commissioned.
06:26Women have been there in the army for more than two decades, but the first ex-NDA woman officer would only get commissioned in May, June of 26.
06:38And that is where the story is set, June 2026, when after a year's training in IMA, they will get commissioned and go to their respective regiments and corps.
06:51And therefore, I went to step ahead and said, okay, it's a work of fiction.
06:55Why not, why not put one of them into the infantry and let's see how this story progresses.
07:07There are countries in which women are in the, I think if I'm not mistaken, Israel.
07:17Israel, yes.
07:18Women are very much in the front line.
07:21They don't have the luxury of a large population.
07:24Everyone serves everywhere.
07:26So, it's impossible.
07:28It's not beyond the realms of possibility or practicability either to have women in the combat arms.
07:35It is just a decision and a line that we have to think.
07:45It's a restriction in our minds which we have to cross.
07:50You served in the army at a time when you had the opportunity of, you know, commanding a unit in formations in which there were lady officers serving.
08:05In my case, I've only been able to speak and interview a lot of them, right, since 1992.
08:12Because that's the time I was, I'd got selected into defense ministry public relations and I, I'd finished with my regimental, regimental life so to speak.
08:25But, this much I know that anyone, anyone of these ladies officers one spoke to, they tried, they, they left no, you know, they didn't, you know, leave any doubt in wanting to be as good as, you know.
08:47And, you know, the very fact that one saw that they, they don't, they, they prefer even in civil, when they wear civil clothes, they prefer wearing shirt and trousers.
09:02There is no doubt that our women officers have performed admirably, when we, you know, serve with them and talk to them, we only see an officer.
09:14We don't see the gender.
09:15We don't see the gender.
09:16Yes, yes.
09:17We say, we say, Sharma, come here.
09:19We don't say, you know, for us, Sharma is Sharma.
09:24The gender is irrelevant and we give the task based on the needs of the day.
09:29So, whether it is a man in front of you or a woman in front of you is totally immaterial.
09:34No, no.
09:35And that is the way, way we function and we have, and they have done quite well for themselves.
09:41They are now commanding regiments and battalions.
09:46And very soon in the, you know, due course of time, they will come up for selection to Brigadier and further.
09:54So, we will have women in the senior ranks very soon.
10:00Very, very recently, there are two women naval officers who sailed around the world.
10:09Yes.
10:10In a, you know, sailing ship.
10:13Sailing ship.
10:14And the conditions there that I would say even more difficult than serving in a field area.
10:20Of course.
10:21Of course.
10:22You will still have a degree of privacy.
10:24Yes.
10:25You will still have, you know, the essential hygiene and sanitation requirements.
10:29So, it's very much possible.
10:30It is just a mental block that we need to get over.
10:36It has been enjoyable to read The Condonement Conspiracy because it, you know, it reminds one of one's own, takes you back to when you just started service.
10:57You know, we have all kinds of preconceived notions while we are cadets of what it means to be and, you know, what life will be once you become an officer.
11:12And then, you know, you start learning or you start relearning what the army is all about.
11:22And joining the battalion is one, you know, that's one very major aspect.
11:30The other aspect is when all of you get together for the young officers course.
11:35Or in this case, this was also something similar when they, when they all landed, landing up in the, say the regimental center.
11:49In the case of the infantry, all officers go to their respective regimental centers.
11:55Regimental centers.
11:56Because not everyone goes to the center, unlike, you know, other arms and services, where the regimental center and school are co-located.
12:04So, you do end up going to Abhman Nagar or Devlali.
12:08Yes.
12:09Yes.
12:10But in the case of the infantry, unless you get posted back to the center as a instructor, it's quite possible that you will do your entire service without having seen the center.
12:22And so that is why for infantry officers, everybody goes to the regimental center for an attachment period of two to three weeks and learn the ropes and then go to the respective battalions.
12:35And that is why this story is set in the regimental center where they have gone and their first taste of army life actually is the center, not the unit.
12:48Of course. Of course.
12:49It's here that they learn all the concepts about or come face to face with the concepts that they have been taught in the academy of duty, honor, courage, moral courage, physical courage.
13:04That is all woven into the story.
13:08No, and I'll say that the greatest, one of the greatest experiences in life is to serve in the Indian Army.
13:19Because I feel it's a great privilege to be commanding the troops that we have commanded no matter where they are from, right from the top of the country down south and from east to west.
13:40I myself was commissioned in the Madras regiment and after that I changed over to four horse and there was never a dull moment with the Thambis and as much there was never a dull moment with the Khalsas or the Dogras.
13:58You, you, you, you, you from, you from the Siglight infantry and well, I, one, one now tries to, you know, figure out all the kind of humorous situations that accrue when women officers land up, you know, commanding Indian Army troops.
14:20Where the very first, where the very first, very first thing in the soldier's mind is, we have to call madam or sir?
14:29Or, I mean, you know, all those things are definitely there, but I think with the passage of time, we have overcome those initial teething troubles.
14:41And now, whether it is the male officers or the Jawans, nobody has any forms about being commanded or serving an oxide women officers.
14:54And that is what is exactly portrayed in the book, that the Jawans follow her.
14:58And even the other officers also, you know, sometimes defer to her, her suggestions because they're all, all equal.
15:07Nobody is more, nobody is more or less.
15:10And it is in this, you know, you can write a book on leadership and management.
15:16Yes.
15:17But the same aspects of leadership and management, you can weave it into a story form.
15:22It doesn't always have to be a non-fiction book.
15:25And that is how I put these qualities out into the book through the various characters, not only Rohit and Renuka who are the main protagonists.
15:34But also Rohit, Renuka and Rehmat.
15:38But also the other officers, the commandant, the deputy commandant, each is showing a particular military trait, characteristic, leadership quality, which we value so much.
15:51So I've got that out, but in the form of a story of, you know, a fiction, a murder mystery, which will be more appealing, which will have a wider readership than only
16:03people with only academic background, who would otherwise, you know, not pick up a book.
16:08No, no.
16:09This is a book which can be enjoyed by a civilian also.
16:12Civilian also, but who reads it, who can understand the qualities which are required of an officer, whichever field in the field.
16:23You know, as one cannot but help, admiring again the traits of our soldiers.
16:30You know, when you go back into military history and see what things were like for them, say in the First World War.
16:41There were 1.5 million who were the winning factor for the allies.
16:56So when the first time they went into, you know, totally different social environment, weather conditions, it was and I think the first compliment they got very soon after their deployment there was from the French.
17:19They said, our soldiers come from a very hardy stock in the background and they were able to withstand physical, you know, discomforts and stress and strain much more than the counterparts in the Western armies or anywhere.
17:38No doubt.
17:39No doubt.
17:40I have seen that in so many joint exercises which we have done.
17:43And again, this is an aspect which has come out in the book.
17:47Yes, yes.
17:48That's why I am…
17:49The soldiers in the training centre are also toughened and also have those qualities.
17:56And no matter whether it was 100 years ago or today, the Indian army remains the same.
18:03It is from there that the Indian army acquired the reputation of being the best in the world almost.
18:12So that is, you know, the continuity part is also brought out.
18:15The traditions and how the team officers understand that they have to be now part of this tradition.
18:23Now they are writing the next pages of history.
18:25Rohit is a third generation.
18:27He has to write the next generation's history.
18:32So he can't let down the previous generations.
18:36So now they are part of history now.
18:38So you know that all they feel when they see the mess and the trophies for the first time and realize that, you know, now we are in the system, not outside.
18:48So that is also, you know, so all these factors were there in my mind when I wrote about them and the plot that through the pages of the book, people should understand about the Indian army also.
19:01No, one having written extensively about both First World War and the Second World War, in the Second World War, we were 2.5 million.
19:14Again, the very solid boar winning factor for the allies, yet again.
19:21And after independence came partition and just see the part of the, from undivided Indian army, the part that went to Pakistan, how different it became.
19:40Yes.
19:41Because of Islamization or whatever, you know.
19:46That is, you know, how life takes strange turns.
19:53So those who opted to join the Pakistani army then may not have realized what the future holds for them.
20:01But that's how, that's how it is.
20:03That's, that's again, that's history.
20:05The history is the, you know, and all these historical things lay the foundation of our, you know, army ethos, the culture and traditions that we value so much.
20:19And we, which we try to uphold, but sometimes the line between duty and honor gets blurred.
20:28And that is also one of the aspects that I'm trying to bring out that.
20:33Which you have tried to bring out in the, in this book.
20:35You have to go, yes, you have to see what is the harder right.
20:39Yes.
20:40Yes.
20:41The easier, easier wrong or try to brush things aside.
20:45So you have to have it very clear in your mind.
20:48And you, and also in a certain place duty has to override.
20:53And in some cases you've had this, this young lady officer trying to bring out what is correct.
21:02Correct.
21:03So because she is not from a army background, she is able to, you know, bring out those things in a more frank manner.
21:14She is not tied down by the old history or traditions, seen as a boy and probably takes for granted.
21:25So Renuka challenges those established norms, but for the better of the organization.
21:33Not as a Panga taker, but for the better of the arrangement, the unit.
21:47So that was the thing.
21:49So I enjoyed writing the book.
21:51And so far the reviews that I've got are quite encouraging.
21:56And many people have said that I should write a sequel to this also.
22:01To this?
22:02Okay.
22:03Of course, the murder is already solved as far as this book is concerned.
22:09The sequel will probably have the same two characters, Reduka and Rohit.
22:14And with a different setting, a different mystery altogether.
22:20So that is what is their plan for the future.
22:24And I hope that maybe by the same time next year, one more.
22:31One more.
22:32Tenuka and Rohit mystery series would be out.
22:37Meanwhile, one is also looking forward to your first book coming out.
22:45Four Stars of Destiny.
22:47So that will come out in due course of time.
22:50So I wait for that.
22:52So I said, while that is still a few, let's move on and carry on.
23:00Exactly.
23:01Carry on.
23:02Try something different, something new.
23:04I am reminded of this battalion that I first got commissioned in 19 Madras.
23:10There is an officer called Brigadier Gotra.
23:17He has written, you know, some books, but there are at least two.
23:24One is a serial, which is, you know, fiction.
23:30Based on, based very much on facts, life in the army or characters from the army.
23:37And one is on fiction, but very close to what is it.
23:43I am already mulling ideas in my mind, but definitely a sequel is on the way.
23:53Very good.
23:54Very good.
23:55So, we look forward to that and I think we wish you happy writing.
24:06And I hope you enjoy the ending as much as you have.
24:10Yes.
24:11So far, I will not give away anything.
24:14I have had to control myself to not to, you know, step into any further into the story.
24:21One should try to maintain the suspense.
24:26So, I hope everybody likes it and enjoys it, enjoys reading it as much as I enjoyed writing it.
24:34It was good fun.
24:36And I also like the way you and Mrs. Narvanegis very nicely sat in your living room and, you know, announced.
24:49Yes.
24:50So, in fact, my wife had not read the book till I gave it to her, till I finished it.
24:58She, of course, knew snippets here and there.
25:01We used to talk about the entire plot or, you know, how it is unfolding, what are the various twists and turns in the story.
25:09She had no idea whatsoever.
25:10And we, if I may, if I may add, is a little bit of lightness, no matter how high we are in life.
25:22So, with Meem sahab, you know, it's always…
25:23Of course.
25:24You need the, you know, green signal from home minister, finance minister.
25:37Without that, you can't go ahead.
25:38You are nowhere.
25:39You are nowhere, no one.
25:40So, thank you.
25:41I really enjoyed talking to you.
25:42Nice.
25:43Enjoyed reading your book and wish you all the best for your next venture.
