Aparna Rawal, Mumbai-based terrorism researcher and analyst speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) | SAM Conversation - video Dailymotion

South Asia Monitor

Aparna Rawal, Mumbai-based terrorism researcher and analyst speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) | SAM Conversation

Transcript

00:00 Welcome to SAM Conversation, an online program of South Asia Monitor. Our subject today is

00:20 Pakistan's utter hypocrisy of observing as Kashmir Solidarity Day. To discuss this we

00:35 have Ms. Aparna Rawal, who has researched a lot on this subject. Now, for the last 30

00:53 years, Pakistan has instituted 5th of February as Kashmir Solidarity Day. Now, this is such

01:15 a mockery because on 22nd of October 1947, it is the newly formed Pakistan and newly

01:26 formed Pakistan's army which began its attack on Kashmir, on the Kashmiri people, not just

01:36 an attack, it was loot, rape and pillage. Literally, the plan was made by Major General

01:50 Akbar Khan of the Pakistan army. His instructions to, there were a few thousand of Pakistan

02:02 army personnel who were mixed with about 12,000 tribal people. And the motivation for the

02:15 tribals was loot as much as you can, rape and capture as many women as you can, for

02:24 which purpose, for both the loot and the women, they were provided with over 500 trucks. Aparna,

02:42 start. For starters, on February 5th, as Pakistan

02:51 celebrates the solidarity with Kashmiris, itself is a fine masterpiece of Pakistan's

02:58 propaganda to portray itself as some sort of a savior. What it fails to talk about is

03:05 how it actually invaded Kashmir and how there were atrocities which followed. Plus the eye

03:11 wash it was showing towards the world about how it was in solidarity with Kashmiris. Now,

03:18 if we go back to August of 1947, when there was a standstill agreement still with Hari

03:25 Singh, that time the erstwhile Maharaja of Kashmir, the idea was to maintain a standstill

03:33 without any violent conflicts or disputes, any of that sort. However, Pakistan already

03:39 started its plan much in advance during that time to invade Kashmir. The motivation behind

03:47 the attacks, what Pakistan wanted, had nothing to do with any religious beliefs of being

03:55 liberators or saviors. They were perpetually the raiders into the valley. And second of

04:01 all, it was from a small of a military strategic perspective. It had nothing to do with the

04:07 people doing any kind of a jihad. This is a myth that Pakistan has been narrating for

04:13 a long time, that the main reason for going into Kashmir was to liberate the people of

04:19 Kashmir. It was to save Islam. It was for the people to do this holy jihad, which is

04:27 definitely not the case. So, Major General Akbar Khan, as you had mentioned, he had written

04:34 a book called Raiders of Kashmir, in which he had clearly outlined how the plans to invade

04:41 Kashmir came to fruition and how Pakistanis created the atrocities in the valley. So,

04:50 keeping this in mind, the plan was already put into place since August. By October 20th,

04:56 we see a bunch of tribals, the Pashtuns. According to a lot of analysts, there were more than

05:03 22 tribes of the Pashtuns utilized to carry this attack. Once they came into Kashmir,

05:10 there was a lot of massacre that happened. The whole idea was to annex Kashmir. It was

05:16 not to liberate, but to annex from one master to another, as they were calling it. During

05:23 this time, after the tribals, they pulled into the area, there was actually more than

05:31 11,000 people killed in Baramulla alone, which Pakistan never talks about. And then, once

05:39 the job was done to infiltrate the area, the looting, the plundering, the raping, abductions,

05:45 displacement of people continued without a stop. What they did not know was that by now,

05:51 Haris Singh had already signed the instrument of accession with India. This is when the

05:57 Indian troops were flown in to stop this invasion. So, Pakistan's strategic plan that day had

06:04 ended. They had failed. With this kind of attitude, the proxy wars have continued in

06:11 this country, while Pakistan reiterates to the world that it's trying to be a savior

06:16 to the Kashmiris. But how can you be a savior when you were the ones who raided? The hypocrisy

06:22 in the nature of Pakistan stems from the very same time it had first invaded. Now, when

06:29 we talk about what is going down in terms of hypocrisy also, Pakistan will celebrate

06:35 Feb 5th in solidarity with Kashmir. But at the same time, what it fails to do is talk

06:43 about its own human rights violations in its own country. The Pakistan-occupied Jammu and

06:50 Kashmir, POJK, still suffers from several human rights violations. And this was also

06:57 mentioned in the UN periodical report for Pakistan. Several recommendations were done.

07:04 However, nothing was complied with. Somewhat of a satisfactory answer was given based on

07:09 whatever evidence Pakistan could submit to the UNRP report. What it doesn't talk about

07:16 is the strict blasphemy laws that it has introduced in the country since January. And it is second

07:23 to Iran's blasphemy laws, which is the strictest in the world. There have been so many cases

07:29 where these blasphemy laws are targeting people from the minorities, the Shia community. But

07:37 Pakistan still talks about standing in solidarity with the Kashmiris. So the question of hypocrisy

07:44 comes from the very fact that it talks more—I mean, you know its intention, the intention

07:49 to annex, the intention to make Kashmir a part of Pakistan. But whose agenda or interest

07:59 does Pakistan serve? There was a famous case of Asia Bibi, a minority lady. She was placed

08:07 under the blasphemy law without proper investigation. Death sentence was handed out to her. People

08:14 who stood with this lady were killed off, including some politicians. Not only that,

08:20 if I have to talk about Pakistan's hypocrisy, we can even discuss the protests in Muzaffarabad,

08:27 which happened seven days ago. The people of Muzaffarabad have openly been talking about

08:33 being treated as second-class citizens in their own country, a country which cannot

08:39 actually give the rights or respect the human rights of their own citizens. How can they

08:45 advocate for any kind of solidarity or justice for another country which is thriving and

08:51 that too is doing well in terms of employment, economy, when Pakistan is completely ruptured

08:57 in chaos because of its political instability, economic instability as well.

09:04 So keeping this in mind, even like their own famous activists, this person called Tokir

09:12 Gilani, he was talking about how the treatment has been meted out to the people of POJK as

09:18 well. There have been basic human rights violations where people cannot speak up against the government.

09:26 If you speak up against the government, you'll be detained, displaced, and there is no sign

09:32 for a basic freedom of speech. Pakistan criticizes India when it talks about internet being shut

09:39 down during certain operations, but it restricts its own people from the basic freedom to speak.

09:47 So the hypocrisy can be traced in so many different aspects with Pakistan that it is

09:52 a wonder how anyone would believe them. Now, Feb 5th, they will show solidarity with Kashmir,

09:59 but it forgets to talk about the massacres that happened in Mirpur, the massacres that

10:04 happened in Poonch, places where even Hindus were killed. And the invasion of 1947 was

10:11 not limited just to the Hindus. Even the Muslims were killed. The Pakistani side failed to

10:18 recognize anybody in terms of religion. Its idea was to rape, annex, plunder. So with

10:25 this in mind, this wasn't a matter of religion. It was a matter of a strategic interest that

10:30 Pakistan had. Plus it wanted to gain some kind of traction more towards the northern

10:35 part to have some links with countries like China. So while keeping this in mind, even

10:42 like the human rights director, Brad Adams, made a statement saying that the area of POJK,

10:50 also called as Azad Kashmir, is not entirely free, as the word Azad means, but is very

10:58 much still in control of the Pakistani troops. While this is going on, there are other issues

11:06 erupting in the state of Pakistan. For example, the case of the Baloch, Balochistan province.

11:14 Baharang Baloch is this activist who has been fighting for more than 50 days for the missing

11:20 people, displaced people of Balochistan. There have been kill and dump policy of Pakistan

11:27 that's been going on for a very long time in order to please the Chinese colonials who

11:34 are trying to marginalize the Baloch in their own province. Pakistan had also had one of

11:41 their generals, Ayman Bilal, under the orders of China, carry out the kill and dump policy

11:48 of the Baloch. Since years and years, there have been protests about the basic human rights

11:57 being misplaced, abductions, missings of a lot of people, which is not limited just to

12:03 POJK, their own Kashmir as they call it. When they cannot provide basic human rights to

12:09 their own Kashmiris, how do they plan on talking about human rights of the Kashmiris in Indian

12:17 region who actually do have a much better life? We don't see these people protesting

12:24 and saying, yes, sir.

12:26 You have very well brought out, Parnam, but I'm glad you switched on to the Baloch. We

12:38 must also keep in mind that in Pakistan, the Sunnis have been killing the Shias, outrightly

12:50 killing the Shias, Ahmadiyas. As far as the Hindus are concerned, there is absolutely

13:00 no holds barred on killing, on forced marriage with women, making them convert. That carries

13:19 on. The people of POJK and Balochistan are already, you touched on it, and if you have

13:29 more details, do come out with them, that in both there is a major Chinese presence.

13:36 Yes.

13:38 Now, this is particularly a time for Pakistan to be a little careful because politically

13:49 they're in a state of absolute turmoil. That cricketer turned Prime Minister Imran Khan

13:59 has been awarded a 14 year jail term. We don't know what his future will be. With all that

14:11 is going on, they still have enough time, the army still has enough time to continue

14:18 its anti-India activities in the valley. Now, not only in the valley, but now in areas north

14:28 of Jammu also. And all this continues with that crocodile tears or hypocrisy saying that

14:45 Kashmiris are being suppressed, etc. Whereas Kashmiris or Muslims in any part of India

15:01 enjoy full-fledged rights on any aspect.

15:12 I think the biggest problem between, I mean, if I have to compare the situation in India

15:19 versus Pakistan, the biggest important thing to touch on is that our country treats our

15:25 citizens as its own, without any isolation or differentiation. In Pakistan, you have

15:34 to be a Sunni Punjabi or from one of those elite classes to have the basic rights. There

15:41 is even an issue with electricity in areas of POJK. There was a protest carried out by

15:48 the teachers in POJK in 2021, and it was a peaceful protest asking for a pay hike. These

15:58 people, the teachers, the educators of the country, were met with a baton charge. 68

16:06 of them arrested and treated miserably. They didn't have a basic right or the basic free

16:11 speech. They are definitely the educators. At least in a country like India, we focus

16:17 on the education of our children, of people. We have the right to education that is given

16:22 to children till the age of 14, then vocational training and other options. But what lies

16:30 for the future of the kids of POJK area? Pakistan recently has been going and crying at the

16:37 UNGA for the Kashmir matter. It keeps raking up Kashmir matter. It makes its trade alliance

16:43 allies speak on its own narrative that Kashmiris in India are not being treated well, that

16:51 there is issues there. With its trade allies, it's able to push forward the narrative. But

16:57 the fact remains, you have people like Mohammad Fair, who are known felons, who have served

17:02 time even in an American prison running like Kashmir American Council in America. These

17:09 people are actual proofed felons. Would one listen to the words of a proofed felon, a

17:15 terrorist? Or would one listen to a sovereign nation that puts up its fights in front of

17:20 the UN, has been keeping and sticking to the facts? While Pakistan's facts about history

17:25 or whether about its treatment to its own people seems to go unnoticed by a lot of people.

17:33 So when you have people joining hands, Pakistan has been manufacturing terror activities.

17:42 It's been funding people like Hafiz Saeed, Maulana Azhar, so many of them. And yet, somehow,

17:53 Pakistan seems to think it has a stand on speaking about solidarity and human rights,

17:59 when it has been in clear violation of human rights, as reported also by the UN periodical

18:06 report. Recently, with the opening of the Ram Mandir, we could see Pakistan running

18:14 to the UNGA, again putting up a complaint. It's more concerned as it places about the

18:22 Muslims of our nation. But however, it doesn't treat the Muslims of its own country in the

18:28 same manner. You have to be a Sunni or you have to be one of the elite classes to have

18:35 the basic rights, while the Shias don't have a stand. There have been random assassinations

18:42 of candidates, political candidates. In fact, a few days ago, one of the political candidates

18:48 from Balochistan, who was from Imran Khan's party, was found assassinated. ISIS claimed

18:56 the attack. However, it's also important to mention, recently with things going sour between

19:02 TTP and Pakistan, the TTP core commanders have also made a statement stating that Pakistan

19:11 has been using ISIS scatters to actually infiltrate into Afghanistan. While taking the military

19:19 cover, they have been trying to push these scatter groups into Afghanistan. And not only

19:26 that, one of the famous TTP core commanders, Ehsanullah Ehsan, he even stated that Pakistan

19:34 has been using ISIS scatters to infiltrate into Afghanistan.

19:41 Please elaborate TTP.

19:43 Yes. So, Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan. Prior to Taliban coming to power, Pakistan had its

19:50 own strategic interest in Afghanistan and it hoped that when Taliban comes to power,

19:55 it will have more influence in the region. However, things went sour with Taliban. And

20:02 because of this, what it has done is Pakistan has made a certain deal with the ISIS leaders.

20:10 Not only that, ISI has also started providing safe havens to some of these ISIS leaders.

20:18 They are being welcomed into the guest houses of the Pakistani government, kept in a decent

20:23 fashion, and they are being controlled to carry out jihad up north. Because ISIS is

20:30 looking for a monopoly in Afghanistan, since Taliban is out of the war theater. And at

20:36 the same time, Pakistan also gets to push its agenda in Afghanistan. While this is going

20:43 on, one of the core commanders of TTP himself stated that what is happening with Afghanistan

20:51 is similar to what happened in Kashmir. Pakistan employing terrorists to go into Kashmir, do

20:58 proxy wars under the military cover and creating distractions. This is coming straight from

21:05 one of the TTP leaders. So a country which is actually exporting terror cannot be doing

21:11 anything worthwhile for the human rights of people anywhere, let alone its own country.

21:19 So in that sense, it's safe to say that Pakistan's hypocrisy to push its narrative is definitely

21:26 going to expand some more. But it's also very strange that Pakistan refuses to introspect

21:34 about its own current conditions, with a caretaker government in place, elections being kept

21:42 for February 8th. And already prior to the elections, there have been massive bombings

21:47 and violence protests in the country. And it's quite unstable. So with this kind of

21:57 situation, one can clearly see the hypocrisy. And when their own general who participated

22:02 in the invasion of Kashmir writes a book and talks about how Pakistan created that plan

22:11 to invade Kashmir much in advance, two months prior to the actual invasion, we know it's

22:17 a well thought of plan and it's coming straight from the source. So in such a case, the hypocrisy

22:23 is written all over Pakistan's narrative.

22:26 Thank you, Pranam. Very often in Pakistan, they've had to score self-goals by some of

22:42 these, like you mentioned, generals who feel like writing their memoirs. One major self-goal

22:51 which was scored by late Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was, you know, one to admit that we will eat

23:09 channa but we will make bombs. You know, the nuclear, and that's a different story, how

23:19 they went about it. The lies and all that go into their nuclear program, the development

23:26 of the nuclear program. And well, we can thank some of these generals for only validating

23:37 what otherwise they've been lying about.

23:47 And this, as far as their, you know, pushing into, continuing the pumping in of terrorists

24:04 trained by them, supported by them into Kashmir Valley and other parts of Jammu Kashmir, I

24:11 think New Delhi needs to realign its policy where it's not just carry out one, you know,

24:25 very, very well conducted surgical strikes just once. If you really want to get rid of

24:35 terrorism or make a very, very major, have a very major effect on it, the such strike

24:44 should be repeated, let's say once in a quarter. And then maybe after four or five, we may

24:50 not need to do anymore. And the leaders, the Nazim leaders, they need to be targeted. They

25:05 need to be, you know, made to feel scared that they can be targeted anywhere.

25:15 That's true. In fact, like army has already announced Operation Sarvanash, which will

25:21 be carried around the Pir Panjal range to flush out the terrorists. I mean, this is

25:27 on basis of Operation Sarvanash. They're using a lot of battle. So it would be interesting

25:35 to see how it would affect the area. But from a basic analysis, what has happened is since

25:46 the PFI, Popular Front of India, was banned, why do I bring this up? Because Popular Front

25:52 of India, initially called CIMI, was initially banned. It erupted under a new name, Popular

25:59 Front of India. Now it's banned for five years. And most of its gather are like either unemployed

26:07 or unattached in some ways. Now ISIS Khora San had already given these people an invitation

26:16 to come and join the jihad that ISIS is carrying. But it's also important to mention that ISIS

26:22 Khora San has already aligned with Pakistani ISI, since they are getting safe havens in

26:29 Pakistan. Pakistan wants its Gaza Ayahin, ISIS will also do. So a lot of these modules

26:36 of ISIS are being now captured since last June, July. We are seeing in many states,

26:43 it's not just Kashmir anymore. We're looking in states like Maharashtra, where one of the

26:48 biggest modules of ISK, ISIS Khora San was caught in Pune. Modules caught in Gujarat.

26:57 There were modules caught in so many different parts of the country. I mean, who's there

27:01 to say that it wasn't a Popular Front gather, which now emerged as ISK. And unlike the previous

27:09 trends, we can also see that now they're recruiting women. With every module being caught, we're

27:15 seeing women recruits, we're even seeing children. Most people who are sleeper cells are suddenly

27:21 activating as ISIS gather or some kind of a link with JN or LED. The thing is, since

27:31 the abrogation of Article 370, the sleeper cells have become very active. Their overground

27:38 workers have become more active. And these modules are being caught almost every other

27:44 month. So we know that ISI is already involved in this whole mess. There's a lot of funding

27:52 coming in and modules are erupting. So the thing is, again, going back to our original

27:58 thing, for a country that seeks to wage war against another nation by destabilizing, killing

28:05 people, walking hand in hand with the terrorists, should not be speaking about counterterrorism

28:10 operations or let alone talk about human rights when it's actually going ahead and mass producing

28:17 terrorists against humanity. Like Jai Shankar put it, our minister, foreign minister, as

28:26 he puts it, the victims of terrorism cannot be sitting and talking with the ones producing

28:34 the terrorists or who are behaving like terrorists. So the hypocrisy of such a nation is vital

28:42 to note.

28:43 Thank you, Aparna. Thank you for a nice roundup of the basic subject and all which is related.

28:58 And let's only hope that New Delhi comes up with some very, very firm steps to put an

29:14 end to this terror and all kinds of suppression of Hindus in Pakistan, etc. Thank you very

29:32 much, Aparna.

29:33 Thank you, sir.

29:34 [BLANK_AUDIO]

Aparna Rawal, Mumbai-based terrorism researcher and analyst speaks with Col Anil Bhat (retd.) | SAM Conversation

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