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Tenzin Lekshay, Spokesperson & Additional Secretary (International Relations), Central Tibetan Administration, speaks with Col Anil Bhat (Retd.) on the Dalai Lama's assertion on reincarnation and its implications| SAM Conversation
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00:00Welcome to SAM Conversation program of South Asia Monitor. Today our topic is His Holiness
00:20Dalai Lama's Assertion on Reincarnation. To discuss this, it is our pleasure to welcome
00:33Mr. Tenzin Lakshay, the spokesperson and additional secretary, International Relations, Central
00:44Tibet Administration. In 1950, the Chinese captured Tibet and nine years later, in 1959, the situation
01:02became a little, it became quite precarious for His Holiness, the Dalai Lama and he was
01:11convinced that he should get away. And he did. It was a perilous journey. And in my book,
01:24China, Bloodies, Bulletless Borders, I have a few photographs of his entry into India. This
01:39is the book. It was released in 2022. And these are the photographs of His Holiness, the Dalai
01:54Lama entering India and being escorted by the 5th Battalion of the Assam Rifles. In this book,
02:03the very first sentence, I make it clear that it is China-occupied Tibet. It's not China. It's not the India-China
02:15border. It is the India-Tibet border, a Tibet which was captured illegally by China and has remained so
02:25since then. His Holiness, the Dalai Lama has just turned 90 on the 6th of this month. And it is heartening to
02:38hear that he has been very gently, but very firmly, quite assertive in stating and clarifying that his successor
02:53successor will be a reincarnation recognized by the Tibetans and not by the Chinese. There is too long a list of
03:08all the kind of exploitation and horrible treatment that has been meted out by the Chinese to the
03:21Tibetans who are there. Mr. Lakshay, I'll request you to give us, I think it's a very, very important, you know,
03:35phase in the Dalai Lama's life and for all of you. Could you please explain to us?
03:47Thank you, Donald, Anil and thank you for South Asia Monitor for giving me this opportunity to talk about the
03:54solidness and the Tibetan cause. So his solidness, the Dalai Lama, is a savior of Tibetan people. His solidness, the
04:04Dalai Lama, is the manifestation of Lord of Compassion. That is our Ogedashwara, who is a guardian of Tibetan
04:12people. His solidness is our leader since then, right? And even now. So our laws, as you rightly said,
04:24his solidness made a perilous journey to India, coming to exile, because China occupied Tibet. And his solidness,
04:33over the so many years, tried to negotiate with solidness, with Chinese communist regime. But because of the
04:40Chinese, they have the different design to occupy Tibet. But not just for Tibet, but to control all over, all over the
04:50world, especially Asia. Tibet was a palm for them to expand towards all the South Asian countries,
04:59Central Asia. So therefore, his solidness was forced to come into India. His solidness escaped in India. And he was
05:08followed by 80,000 Tibetans. And over the last so many years, his solidness has been consistently working
05:17on to negotiate on the Tibetan cause, Sino-Tibetan conflict, which has been long pending. But China was the one who
05:27who do not have any political will to resolve this conflict. Right? So not only that, China has been
05:36saying over the years that this is the stature of His Holiness, not of 6 million Tibetan people. Right?
05:46All through the time, they were only talking about the stature of His Holiness, Dalai Lama.
05:51But His Holiness says that, no, it is not just about me, but the cause is about the 6 million Tibetan
05:57people. Now, over the years, what they've been claiming, because that they know that His Holiness,
06:06if His Holiness lives longer, then China will have a difficult time, right, in ruling Tibet.
06:13Tibet. They might have physically ruled Tibet, but the Tibetan people's heart, mind and souls
06:21are all with His Holiness in India. Right?
06:26They might have physically ruled Tibet, but they could not win the hearts of the Tibetan
06:32people for the last 70 years. So what they have been doing is, over the last so many years,
06:39his Holiness has been called by different, demeaning names, like monks in Wolfsrow. Sometimes he's a
06:49splitist. Sometimes he's a separatist. Sometimes he was called as a demon by the Chinese. They were the one. Now they are all passionate about, but getting the
06:59authority of incarnation of Dalai Lama.
07:09They should know that they were the one once time that they were ready to kill his Holiness. They were ready to tell them that he is the, he is just not a religious person, but a political person.
07:19Over the years, over the years, even now they have been saying that his Holiness Dalai Lama is not a religious figure, but a political person. Right?
07:35So therefore, but there was so much engrossed in getting the authority of the incarnation of Dalai Lama.
07:57Since 1969, his Holiness has stated, since 1969, when his Holiness was young, his Holiness has stated that whether the Dalai Lama institution should remain or not has to be dependent on the wishes of the Tibetan people.
08:14So if the Tibetan people wishes that Dalai Lama's institution remain, right, then it is obvious that his Holiness will come. Right? And his Holiness also made a lengthy statement in 2011, in September 24th, that he will consult with all the high Lama of the Tibetan Buddhist traditions, Tibetan public, and all the offices or people who follow Tibetan Buddhism, whether the institution Dalai Lama should remain or not.
08:42Now, now after 14 years, his Holiness has confirmed and affirmed with clarity, graciously, his Holiness said that now this, with 14 years, all the Tibetan people, inside and outside, but all these Himalayan people, all these people from Mongolia, Russian Federation, even from Chinese people from China, mainland China, had appealed over so many years.
09:12For the institution, for the institution, therefore, his Holiness, this time, had made it very clear that the institution of Dalai Lama will continue. That's a very good news for us.
09:23Right? But we have to understand that his Holiness over years has stated many times that if the Tibetan situation remain unchanged, he'll be born in a free world.
09:40Right? Right? If the Tibetan, his Holiness also stated many times that if the Tibetan people wishes him to come, he'll come.
09:49So, now there is a confirmation, there is a confirmation from his Holiness that his Holiness, the Dalai Lama's institution, will continue.
09:57Right? So, for that, the sole authority on the Incarnation, Dalai Lama, remains with his Holiness alone. Nobody else. Not even the Chinese regime.
10:13Right? Why? Because Chinese Communist regime, one time, in early 1954, when his Holiness visited China, Mao Zedong told his Holiness that religion is poison.
10:27Right? Right? They don't believe in religion. Since that moment, till date, they've been the destroyer of faiths. They were the ones who destroyed the faiths.
10:40We used to say that more than 6,000 monasteries were destroyed. We are saying that all through the time, the Tibetan monks and nuns and all these practitioners were being incarcerated, tortured, killed.
10:58They have exploited the Tibetan religion. They have destroyed the Tibetan religion. Now, how come the destroyer of the faith be the one who has the authority on this unique Tibetan Buddhist tradition?
11:16They are not at all of the Buddhist tradition, first thing. They do not belong to the Buddhist tradition. So, how can a one who is outside of the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, do have the authority on their Buddhist tradition?
11:31So, there is nowhere. This is a logical reason. Now, the second part is historical reason.
11:38The Dalai Lama institution has been there over 600 years. This is the 14th Dalai Lama. So, all through the 6,600 years, China has been saying that they have a legitimate role to play.
11:57Why? Because they have been claiming that in 1792, as per the ordinance, the 29th ordinance, they have the authority by using the golden urn.
12:09That was only in 1792, in 18th century. But we are talking about 600-year-old tradition of this institution.
12:20So, therefore, they do not have even the historical legacy and authority on the reincarnation of Dalai Lama.
12:31In fact, if you can check, now in 1792, when they are talking about this golden urn by Qianlong, the Chinese emperor,
12:40where are the records in the emperor's record, which claim that they have the authority?
12:45No. No. The Chinese communist regime, they are remaking the histories by simply getting their own ownership and the authority on this reincarnation.
12:57Because they want this to be on the political side.
13:02They are not in comfort with the religious faith or the tradition.
13:07But rather, they want to use this institution, use this reincarnation as a tool for their political interests.
13:15So, therefore, there is no way that China has any legitimate role to play on the reincarnation issue of His Holiness.
13:24What was the full story about the last Panchan Lama?
13:39So, now, over the last... I would say that last month, when I met with one foreign journalist from China,
13:49he told me that they met with a Chinese leader.
13:53And they claimed that China will have a Dalai Lama, a next Dalai Lama.
13:59And they said that they have 6 to 7 million Tibetans with them.
14:06They claimed that...
14:076 to 7 million Tibetans with them. I see.
14:11With them. I see.
14:12By claiming that they have the legitimate right for the reincarnation of the next Dalai Lama.
14:19Now, see.
14:21Now, the question is,
14:23do these 6 to 7 million Tibetans have the faith on the Chinese leaders?
14:27Right.
14:30Simple example.
14:32The classic example is Chinese Panchan.
14:35His Holiness in 1995 appointed a 6-year-old white child as the reincarnation of Panchan Lama.
14:48Three days after, he was just 6 years old.
14:52Three days after the appointment, China kidnapped that boy.
14:57His parents and the selector.
15:01A person who is responsible for the selection of the Panchan Lama.
15:06It's been almost 30 years now.
15:10Nobody knows about the well-being of...
15:13Nobody knows about the whereabouts of that child and his parents and then the well-being of that child for the last 30 years.
15:26China claimed that he was happy.
15:28He did not want to be disturbed.
15:30But how can China have the competence to show when they have selected their own Panchan Lama?
15:38Right.
15:38So, when their chosen Panchan Lama do not stay in the Seed Monastery in Tashillambu.
15:50Their Panchan Lama remains in Beijing all the time.
15:54And when and if they needed him to show to the world that good things are happening in Tibet, he will only be traveled to Tibet.
16:04And during that time, all the Tibetan people throughout wherever he is visiting were compelled to go and go down.
16:16Otherwise, they will be penalized.
16:18Just as, Colonel, you might have heard about Hungar Doji, who had mysteriously passed away quite recently in March, this year in Vietnam.
16:34He escaped from Tibet to Vietnam with the fear of being tortured, being imprisoned.
16:41Because when China's pension visits his monastery, China had told, the Chinese authority told him that all the protocols have to be done.
16:53But he was reluctant to do that because he did not believe in that Chinese pension.
17:02So, all through the time, the Tibetan people do not believe in the Chinese pension.
17:08Otherwise, simple reason is, in Tibet, we will not even see his photo in public domain.
17:16He has no market at all.
17:19He has no faith from the people.
17:21No reference.
17:23Only he became a puppet and a tool for the Chinese to show to the world that something is good happening in Tibet.
17:30But the real one is still kidnapped and unknown to all the people.
17:39So, therefore, for China, this is the reality, how they treat the Buddhist leaders.
17:47And we have many number of Buddhist leaders who have been killed and tortured over the years, over the decades.
17:57Oh, we have, over the past decades, one has heard so often.
18:03One has heard so often.
18:05I don't know.
18:06Is there any kind of figure that you have of how many monks have been killed?
18:14Because we have been hearing over the decades from, you know, from a number of quarters that, you know, and China is an iron curtain as far as information is concerned.
18:30And so, it's not, and they're all, on top of that, they're liars, outright liars.
18:38The Communist Party of China, it's very, it's very basic philosophy is lying, you know.
18:48That's true.
18:50That's true, Kanun.
18:51So, over the years now, if you look at Tibet issue, they claim that Tibet was part of China.
18:57Now, over the years, what they've been justifying, they claim, is that at one point of time, they said that Tibet was part of China since 7th century, during the 33rd king of Tibet.
19:11And it didn't work out well in their favor.
19:14Then, they come down to 13th century during the Mongols' time.
19:19But, again, it didn't go well as per their narratives.
19:24So, what we are saying is, whenever China put their fingers in the recorded history of Tibet, they will always burn their fingers.
19:35So, now, Xi Jinping has been telling the world that Tibet was part of China since time immemorial.
19:44Unknown history.
19:45Even China do not know.
19:49Even China do not know.
19:51That Tibet was part of China since then.
19:54Right.
19:55Because we have a very unique culture, tradition, history.
20:01And we'll be neighbor for all the millennials.
20:05China know that.
20:06But they keep on lying and remaking history for the sake of their present political convenience.
20:17And it will not go well with them in the future.
20:20No, it's a bottomless greed that they have, you know, of, which, Tibet is, they've made claims on so many parts of India.
20:39Arunachal.
20:40And they've tried all kinds of means to grab territory here and there, whenever possible.
20:51And with us, the last time that, you know, they were very smart.
20:59But, in 1967, there were some skirmishes in Nathula, Chola, and Sikkim.
21:14Our commanders thought that if they made a barbed wire fencing, it would at least, you know,
21:25a lot of daily arguing about this is, this is not your land, this, that would be avoided.
21:38But they just couldn't, couldn't stand it.
21:41Every time the Indian soldiers picked up a, you know, picket and do any digging, they'd start firing at us.
21:51They, in fact, started firing even artillery.
21:55And we responded back with artillery.
21:59And for us, then the permission to use artillery for Indian Army came from the Prime Minister,
22:07who at that time was, you know, looking after the defense portfolio also.
22:16And we lost 67, they lost about 400.
22:19After that, they pressed very hard that, let's not fire at each other.
22:26And they've, they've taken great advantage of that agreement.
22:32Even in 2020, when they, you know, when they attacked in Galwan,
22:37they attacked with the ancient medieval, you know, rods and rods with the wires tied to all kinds of, you know, crude medieval weapons.
22:53And of course, they, they killed 20 of us and they, in, in, in the, in, in the, in, in the reaction by Indian soldiers.
23:06Officially, they, they lost 43, but the, the actual figure is, is, you know, according to certain satellite reports also, may have gone up to about 100.
23:17Anyway, they, but it's, there is, there is, there is absolutely no, no, no end to the agreed and all this was done after they contaminated the whole world with COVID-19.
23:32Now, it's, it's, it's, it's very, it's very heartening that the, the, His Holiness of Dalai Lama has expressed that this reincarnation will be of, you know, decided by the Tibetan people here.
23:56Now, does that mean that the, that, you know, the next Dalai Lama will, will be kept here, in India, in Dharamsala?
24:09So now, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, Colonel, now, first thing first, right?
24:17Now, first thing first, His Holiness said that, uh, the institution will continue.
24:21There is an affirmation that, uh, the institution of Dalai Lama will continue.
24:27Now, second thing is that, all the responsibilities will, are, shouldered, or entrusted upon the Garde Moran Trust.
24:38But, that's the Office of His Holiness, since, it's been existing since, from the first Dalai Lama time, right?
24:44One thing.
24:44And, now, third thing is that, it will be, the process will be in consultation with the High Lama's, and the Ought-bound protectors, who were linked with Dalai Lama Institutes for centuries.
25:01But, so, therefore, this is the ultimate thing right now.
25:05Now, now, the second thing, now, the matter which we have to look into now, is, quite, two days back, when we had a long-life puja of His Holiness, when we celebrate His Holiness' birthday, His Holiness told everyone, then he will live up to 135 years.
25:27Right, and His Holiness, when He is, when He is 90, at an advanced age, but His Holiness' health is more than ever, He is healthier, His radiance, right, shower all through the world.
25:45We have seen the birthday celebration.
25:48We have a very small palace or the residence and the, uh, and the temple in Dharamsala.
25:54It's overcrowded, not just by the Japan people, but Kamalian people, people from all over the world, comes and celebrates the highest moment of the 90th birthday of His Holiness.
26:08This is a historic moment for us.
26:11So, for us, right now, what we've been saying, because His Holiness also has concluded during His birthday celebration.
26:18celebration, he said that throughout his life, he has practiced compassion, even to China, right?
26:29So, all his followers should also practice compassion to all the humanities.
26:36That's a very good, I would say, that's a very nice advice, and the wisdom which His Holiness has shared even now.
26:47Let's not hate each other.
26:50Let's all embrace compassion, right, even to Chinese people.
26:56So, I would say that right now, right, because China, as Governor, you have rightly said, stated, right, because we don't know China.
27:08China has always been suspicious all the time to all the people, to all the nation, not just about India, even to Tibetans.
27:20We lost our country, but still, China remains suspicious to us, right?
27:28So, now, now the problem, now the problem is, now the problem is, but why China remains suspicious all the time?
27:40Whether it's a peacetime or wartime, you know, no matter when, every time China remains suspicious.
27:46So, to my knowledge, little knowledge, I said that, why?
27:51Because China, all through the centuries, they try to master on these Sun Tzu's art of war.
28:01All through the generations, even now, under Xi Jinping, they are reading these Sun Tzu's art of war.
28:06How to win over others, by deceiving, by killing, by torturing, by maneuvering, all the things which always remain suspicious.
28:16But, you know, then, there, there, there, all this cruelty is only against people who are defenseless.
28:28Yes.
28:29With those who can fire back at them, they, they can't face them.
28:33That is why, they, in 1967, you know, they, they pressed up for that agreement of peace and tranquility and not firing at each other.
28:43So, they learned this must, they learned this arwa, how to deceive others, right?
28:53Now, the question is, will it, will China be able to continue with this, the mentality of suspicious, of, of deceiving others, with this belligerent?
29:06Will it work for China in the, you know, when you, when you, you know, when you hold on to something by means of lies and deception, there, there's, I think, a limit to how long you can do so.
29:21That's true. That's why, that's why, Colonel, we always say that no matter how hardship the Tibetan force we are facing, right, but truth must prevail and truth shall prevail one day.
29:38So, we always remain hopeful that even though we are small, even though we've been martialized all through the time, but we always remain hopeful that the truth will prevail.
29:52No matter how big China is, but over the last 70 years, they always remain fearful.
30:00Well, they, you know, at any stage, if they, if you mention, tip it to them, then they, they get into, you know, paroxysm of anger, anger.
30:15Yes, that's true.
30:16Into paroxysm of anger. That, that, that's their reaction, you know, it's like a red, a red rag to a bull.
30:25To, you know, to, and, uh, uh, India has, India has been, you know, very, uh, restrained in, uh, uh, in, in, in, at least saying it, we, what matters is that we have held our ground as far as the, our, our, our, um, you know, support to the Tibetan people,
30:53to His Holiness, to His Holiness, the Dalai Lama is concerned, it is there, you know, un, un, unquestioningly, and will remain so.
31:03There's, I have no doubt about that.
31:06And I, I, I feel that if, if you, for the next reincarnation, um, it may be, may be safer and, uh, you know, to, to let, let him be in India.
31:21Yeah. Because they cannot dare to lift, you, lift, you know, uh, they, they cannot dare to enter India and to try anything like, uh, picking anyone up.
31:34So, uh, Colonel, see, over the last 60 years, right, His Holiness has stated many times that he enjoys the freedom in India.
31:50Though His Holiness is steadfast, His Holiness has been given a prestige of being honored by the guest of India for so long.
32:00His Holiness said, I'm the longest guest of India, right.
32:05And not only being a guest, His Holiness has been saying that he's a son of India.
32:12No, no, he's a, he's a very, very honored guest.
32:14He's a very, he's a loved, very loved guest.
32:18There's all over India, he's been loved and revered, right, by all, right, all.
32:25And, uh, he, he, he's really been an apostle of peace.
32:29Um, he, he's a, he's a living example, you know, of, uh, peaceful, uh, of being peaceful and, uh, one, one wishes him a long life.
32:40And, uh, it, uh, it, it, it is, uh, I'm, one, one, one hopes and, uh, prays that, you know, the, this reincarnation process
32:52is, uh, is, uh, is, uh, you know, carried out smoothly to the satisfaction of the dividend people.
33:05And I would also like to conclude by saying that, right, with the help and support from the government of India
33:12and the people of India, right, our cause is still strong enough, right, to, to challenge the Chinese male violence, right,
33:27the torturous one, even though we are living at a very critical time, right, of, of, of the fear of this, what, extension,
33:38existential threat imposed upon us by the Chinese to various means, but we have a support, we have a support
33:48and solidarities from all of the world, especially India.
33:52So I would like to thank all my Indian brothers and sisters on behalf of all the Japan people
33:59for all the things that India had done for us.
34:04And one thing you need to also understand is if Tibet suffers, India suffers, right?
34:15So therefore, as we rightly said, that the Tibet cause is not just for the cause of the Tibetan people,
34:24but is a pro-justice and for the humanity.
34:28So therefore, we are seeing more than ever as far as all the Tibetans who are in India,
34:37I am very sure that they will remain safe.
34:44And by God's grace, may a day come when things change in China.
34:51And I don't know.
34:55It will.
34:56One day it will.
34:58The change is the only constant thing.
35:02One wishes for is a positive change.
35:04And as a matter of fact, Donald,
35:07because in China, as his owners, if you have seen this statement, recent statement,
35:13even the Chinese people from China have requested his owners that the institution of the Lai Lama should remain.
35:22That means there were hundreds and thousands and millions of followers of Tibetan Buddhism in China.
35:31So therefore, and as a matter of fact,
35:35if they follow the Tibetan Buddhism,
35:38as we said,
35:40that the Tibetan Buddhism is rooted in ancient Indian Nalanda tradition.
35:46And India is our guru.
35:49And India has more role to play.
35:53Even on China's day.
35:54Thank you, Mr. Lakshay.
35:57Thank you very much for all your inputs.
36:01And all the best to His Highness and to all the Tibetan people.
36:07Thank you so much, Donald.
36:09It was a pleasure meeting you again.
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