Frank Islam speaks with Anumita Roy Chowdhury, Indian environmentalist | Washington Calling - video Dailymotion

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00:00 [Music]

00:15 This is Frank Islam, Chairman and CEO of FFI Investment Group and your host of Washington

00:22 Calling, where we interview leading voices from business and politics that impact you, the viewer.

00:29 Today our guest is Anumita Roy Choudhury and I hope I pronounced it correctly, but if I did not,

00:37 I do apologize. She is the Executive Director for the Center for Science and Environment in Delhi.

00:43 She's in charge of sustainable urbanization that encompasses clean air, sustainability,

00:51 and sustainable habitat. She has been awarded the Hagen Smith Clean Air Award by the California

01:00 Air Resources Board. Let me say this before I interview you. Thank you for all you're doing

01:06 to make a difference. And climate change, I've written a lot of, I'd say a lot of

01:14 articles and columns in the media and several other places about the climate change,

01:24 which is a critical race that we need to win. It should be high priority as I view climate

01:31 change as a major threat to our economy, to who we are, to our health. So thank you for coming to

01:37 show and let's get started. So Anumita, you are known to be a leading advocate in the developing

01:44 world for clean air to breathe. What made you take up this unique campaign in the first place

01:52 and how does the clean air affect our economy and our health? It's all your turn.

01:58 Thank you. So right. And I'm so happy you've asked me that question because often people ask me that

02:05 how did the Right to Clean Air campaign at the Center for Science and Environment start? And I

02:10 always say sheer accident. It did not happen by design. And what happened was imagine about mid

02:18 90s in India when air pollution was already a problem, but there was very little awareness

02:25 around it. And that was the time suddenly one afternoon, I still remember the founder and

02:33 director of the Center for Science and Environment, and I was still a young researcher at that point

02:37 of time, he suddenly asked us to just go and find out that what's this problem of air pollution is

02:43 all about because government is forcing us to take our cars to get the tailpipe emissions tested. So

02:51 is that all that is needed to deal with the problem? So actually the whole work and today

02:57 the big campaign around air pollution started with this one curious question that we investigated,

03:04 and then we found out that what had gone wrong. The fact that our industries were still lagging

03:12 behind in emission control systems, the fact that vehicles were spewing so much of emissions because

03:18 automobile industry and oil industry had not improved their technology and fuel quality.

03:24 Now all that investigation that led to, I still remember the first book that we did called,

03:30 very provocatively called Slow Murder, the deadly story of vehicular pollution in India.

03:36 And that had catalyzed the whole campaign for us. And you should know that at that point of time,

03:42 when we were in quite a vacuum of information, there was so little science, so little information

03:48 in the public domain, that even this little bit of information that we could distill and put out

03:54 had become so powerful that it actually ended up catalyzing several developments around that time.

04:01 It got the Supreme Court to come in and give a slew of decisions. Government came up with

04:08 white paper on air pollution and that set a momentum going. And for us, it was no turning

04:15 back from there. That's very well said. So is there anything in India like EPA in the United

04:21 States? So we do have our own EPA. So that's a Central Pollution Control Board. Yes. As we

04:28 understand, you are an Executive Director of the Center for Science and Environment in Delhi.

04:33 Please tell our global viewer, and we got a lot of viewers, your organization is work,

04:39 and how do you sustain yourself? And what does this center do?

04:43 You know, if I really try and talk about my organization, I would really need to locate it

04:52 within the way environmental movement itself has evolved in India. So imagine when this

04:59 institution was set up in 1980, you know, way back in 1980. And you have been there since 1980?

05:05 Not since 1980. I've been there since the 90s. Okay. And so, but that was a time when the,

05:14 you know, this visionary, Mr. Anil Agarwal, who was a very noted environmentalist in India,

05:20 and he had set it up. And the essential attitude of the organization was that how do you challenge

05:28 the established understanding of environment and development? We really had to challenge the

05:35 old school idea about conservation when it was when environment was understood as just about

05:42 pretty trees and tigers, and that you protect them and protect the forest and get people out

05:47 of the forest. But we challenged that. We said in a developing world, in global south, we have to

05:54 understand the intrinsic link between our natural resource base, the livelihood, and the development

06:01 that needs to be dependent on very well sustained management of resources. And therefore, we cannot

06:07 have this kind of guns and guard approach towards protecting natural resource. So the whole idea was

06:15 to therefore come up with that what does environmentalism really mean in a developing

06:20 country's context. So that was the whole idea. And that's when we also said that imagine that we are

06:26 developing now, and we are developing at a level of technology that is causing huge amount of

06:31 pollution also. And yet, we need to be preventive, we need to be precautionary, our growth should not

06:37 add to the pollution, we need to leapfrog, and we have to find a unique way of progressing.

06:43 Because we have to be different from the global north, because in US or Europe, you actually had

06:49 40 to 50 years to clean up everything, right? And you do your work incrementally. But we have to do

06:55 it as if the deadline is yesterday. That's a good way to put it. You're

06:59 working with Indian and African cities to help shape the roadmap for clean air action plans.

07:04 How do you think are accepted the government officials for promoting policies to curtail air

07:11 pollution in their countries and cities? Do you think African countries has close to 880,000

07:17 deaths, as you know, from the pollutions and as well as from the health officials? That's

07:28 where I got the data. And what can be done in Africa to reduce air pollution?

07:35 We'll talk about Africa, not India first. We'll talk about India next.

07:40 Okay, so first about Africa, right? So, yes, the challenge of Africa, and this is also part of the,

07:46 again, the global south. Now, so India is also a global south, Africa is also global south. And yet,

07:53 Africa's challenge is very different. You know, when you are, so this is the time when Africa is

07:58 also growing, its economy is growing. But we know that they're also in the grip of pollution. And

08:04 when they have very little capacity... And the death of the premature death.

08:09 Absolutely. And from a lot of disease they have.

08:13 Exactly. So, therefore, the disease burden related to air pollution is increasing. But it's

08:22 interesting to see, like when we go to Africa, yes, the capability is still there. They really

08:27 need a lot more resources, they need their capability. But the receptivity in Africa today

08:33 is, I would say, is much better than what we have seen many years ago in our part of the world.

08:38 So, you're talking about North Africa, the South Africa, the Middle Africa, or the West Africa?

08:44 You do see changes, you do see, I mean, there are differences still, but we have seen more

08:49 improvement and changes, say, for instance, in the eastern African countries, even South Africa.

08:58 So, there is a variation. But what you see, now just imagine, you know, I mean, it's interesting

09:03 to see that today the African countries are talking about rapid electrification of their

09:10 vehicle fleet, right? They are talking about decentralized renewable energy, and they are

09:15 moving ahead on that. Now, but understand the nuanced version of that. So, today Africa is

09:22 motorizing based on the dumped old vehicles from the other parts of the world. So, it is the used

09:28 secondhand vehicles that are invading the roads of Africa. And it is so tough for them, therefore,

09:35 to work with internal combustion engine to meet the emission standards that we meet today.

09:40 That is true, that is true. But they're poor.

09:42 They're poor, but then they're looking at the opportunity that how you can, therefore, leverage

09:49 the electrification agenda. And therefore, you can sidestep the internal combustion engine paradigm

09:57 and leapfrog to a much cleaner future. That's a good way to put it. As you know,

10:03 the Indian capital has been covered the worst, most polluted city. And I've been there, I went

10:08 with Obama to Delhi on the Republic Day. That was a pretty polluted day. And we stayed for about two

10:16 days or one day. And then after that, he has to go to Saudi Arabia. So, I flew back with him on Air

10:21 Force One. So, the question is that, so this is the most polluted city in the world. And people

10:27 are often, you know, scared of visiting Delhi in the wintertime. Do you believe the local and

10:34 national government in Delhi and India are subject to experts like you and action needed to fight air

10:40 pollution for the sake of better health of its 20 million citizens? I did not realize that Delhi

10:46 has a 20 million citizens. It's like another country. Do you, that's a good way to put it.

10:52 Well, Sudan has only about 4 million people. Do you know what really ails Delhi? And do you know

11:00 what the main causes of pollution is and the concerns of pollution in India is? Do you think

11:07 that it comes from the industry? It comes from the, it comes from the rural areas.

11:13 Tell us a little bit about what are the concerns that affect the health of the people in India

11:19 because of the pollution? Absolutely, Frank. And I would say that, yes, Delhi is facing a very

11:27 complex pollution challenge. And yet, what I would say that this is a much more nuanced story for

11:34 people to understand. It's not such a black and white to say that Delhi is polluted and Delhi is

11:39 not doing anything about it because that's the kind of story that gets spawned all the time.

11:43 So it's not industrial pollution in Delhi. It's the biomass. It also comes from the

11:49 rural area as well because they have to keep themselves warm in the winter. And also,

11:54 there's something about biomass burning for the cooking.

11:59 No, but let's put it this way first. Yes, pollution levels are high in Delhi. But let's

12:05 first look at then what Delhi has done to deal with the problem. So Delhi is also the only city

12:12 in the country to have got rid of all diesel vehicles for public transport and local commercial

12:18 transport. And it's gone completely to natural gas and now already achieved 10% electrification.

12:24 It has aligned with the Euro 6 emission standards. There are taxes on diesel so that there's an

12:30 active policy to discourage use of diesel in Delhi. For the industrial use, they have banned

12:36 coal, they have banned petrol, furnace oil, and therefore natural gas has been scaled up.

12:40 They have spaced out 10-year-old diesel vehicles and 15-year-old petrol, the gasoline vehicles.

12:47 Now, these are not small measures. And Delhi is also the only city that had shut down all its

12:51 coal power plants. Now, none of these are small measures. And what is interesting,

12:57 that because of this now we are seeing that on year-on-year basis, the overall pollution levels

13:03 in Delhi are coming down and we have already seen a reduction of over 25%. Now, that is the

13:09 good story. But, and that's where the challenge is, that even after that reduction, Delhi still

13:16 needs to reduce its pollution by yet another 60% to be able to do that. And here what we are finding

13:25 the major polluters today in Delhi are, in fact, 50% of the problem are actually vehicles. The

13:30 sheer explosive number of vehicles in Delhi. And yes, you're right, that the solid fuel that the

13:37 poor people burn for their needs, but that is an equity issue. You know, so that will require a

13:44 different kind of a strategy to deal with them versus dealing with the vehicular pollution.

13:50 So now the next generation action will have to be much harder. And for that to build the political

13:56 and public support is really going to be the next big challenge.

14:01 Well, I think a part of the problem in Delhi, as I understand, is the pollution from the industry,

14:08 from the rural area, but also the health of the people. It's affecting the health. The people

14:13 have a lot more lung cancers, people have a lot more heart problems and heart disease and so on

14:18 and so forth. And this has to be reduced because one person's life is more precious than anybody

14:26 else's life is, right? We have to be concerned about it. Do you see a brighter horizon for Delhi's

14:32 pollution? I certainly do. Because it's such a struggle, because I'm a diehard optimist.

14:38 So you should be an optimist. Yeah. And I have seen the change. Okay. So everything that I've

14:45 just talked about, you know, getting rid of the dirty fuel, getting the CNG, electric, I mean,

14:50 all of these have been big battles. And we have won that battle. So a lot of things have happened

14:56 on ground. And if those have happened, there is no reason why more cannot happen.

15:00 Yeah, I agree with you. So how do you tell the people in the rural area to curtail it,

15:06 to make sure they do the right thing? And what incentive do you provide them to be more effective?

15:12 So in the rural areas, the big problem here, absolutely right, is the use of solid fuel for

15:18 cooking, right, which increases exposure enormously. And that's a huge risk. Now, the only way you can

15:26 deal with it is with a clean energy transition, that the rural people, everyone should have access

15:32 to either gas or electricity for cooking and heating. Now access and to reliable access

15:41 and affordable access, those are the unique imperatives of the developing economy. And

15:48 affordability is a big issue. Now, government India does have a big program to give access to

15:54 subsidized LPG to the rural people. But we have to understand that in India, poverty is of different

16:02 levels. There are people who cannot also afford the subsidized LPG. That's a good way to put it.

16:08 So we have... There are people who are rich also, very, very rich.

16:11 Yes. So we really have to transfer, which is happening already, the subsidy from the rich

16:17 to the poor and that need to be done more effectively. And therefore, that's where we now,

16:22 therefore, the polluter pay principle will really have to be applied more effectively now.

16:27 So they are in process of reducing greenhouse and gas emissions as well in India.

16:34 So that's... We do have our own targets for 2030 now. So as you know, that India has set

16:42 its own target about reducing the energy intensity of its economy by 45% by 2030.

16:48 It is talking about reducing one billion ton of carbon. It has set a target of 50% of its energy

16:56 from renewable sources. So we just have to be now on track and achieve that.

17:01 Well, I hope they do achieve it. So you see a brighter horizon for them.

17:05 I certainly do, because try and understand the advantage that countries like India have. So,

17:12 you know, because most of our development is in the future and therefore we have a choice to make.

17:19 And if we make the right choices now, then we can prevent huge amount of pollution in the future.

17:24 That's a good way to put it. Is there anything that Indian cities can learn from American cities?

17:30 Yes, absolutely. So, you know, in fact...

17:33 We had the same problem back in the 60s in our country as well.

17:35 No, but you know, where the good lesson is from the US approach of dealing with the issue

17:43 is the power of regulation. That's what you've seen in the US.

17:49 And law and order.

17:50 And the whole way the regulations have been crafted for pollution control with very strong

17:56 compliance framework, monitoring and measurable methods, right? And setting clear targets,

18:03 making your funding performance linked. So in fact, from time to time, we have looked at

18:10 several pieces of regulations in the US, in California. In fact, the diesel battle that

18:15 we fought in Delhi, for that we actually had to draw upon what California did about declaring

18:21 diesel as a toxic air contaminant and then taking action on it and looking at the EPA,

18:27 for instance, about how they do their air quality monitoring, air quality regulations,

18:31 the Clean Air Act of the US, how they have made that more target oriented, performance linked.

18:37 So there are a lot of lessons for us to kind of strengthen our own regulatory framework

18:43 for air quality management. And more we see this kind of learning. And if we can tap that learning

18:49 curve and integrate some of those principles, you know, that can certainly drive the change.

18:54 Well, that's a good way to put it. How far did COP28, which is the conference with parties that

19:01 concluded in Dubai, that has something to do with the conference of the climate change conference

19:08 in UAE, correct? Which you attended, as I understand. And that's the reason we had a

19:16 little bit of conflict in our scheduling of interviews. And I'm a pretty busy,

19:21 a little bit busy, not that much busy as you are. So do you think that this will address the goals

19:30 of sustainable organization? And tell me how the agreement will be translated into implementation?

19:36 You know, it was very exciting to see that this time in COP, there was such a strong...

19:44 Where? Where was this place?

19:45 So this was in Dubai.

19:47 Dubai, that's what I thought. What a beautiful city is Dubai. It makes Manhattan look like a,

19:53 you know, it makes Manhattan look like what I consider, you know, pretty bad.

20:01 Right. It looks so different. But yes, it was very interesting to be there. And a lot of,

20:11 there was quite a new energy this time in the conference of parties. And what I really liked

20:18 is this very special spotlight on urban agenda around climate change. Because, you know,

20:24 just keep in mind that the urban emissions are supposed to be about 70% of the global

20:30 greenhouse gas emissions. Have to deal with our cities. So it was very interesting to see that

20:38 how the mayors, the sub-national governments, they all came together. Different countries

20:43 came together. They signed on to the whole new urbanization agenda.

20:48 And the most of the countries were Asian, the Americans, the Europeans also.

20:52 I mean, it's all across.

20:53 It's all across, okay.

20:54 And they have also been able to get committed, some of the countries have also committed funds

21:00 for it. And what is exciting is that now a lot of the countries during the course of 2024 and 2025,

21:07 they will be revising their nationally determined commitment on climate change.

21:12 And with this new urban agenda, if that gets integrated, especially the mitigation plan,

21:18 which will now be debated in the next COP. And if you look at the next COP.

21:22 And when the next COP will occur, where and when?

21:26 So is it the Azerbaijan? I think that's where they are.

21:30 Azerbaijan. I know where it is.

21:34 So therefore, what they are saying is, but the point is this already, the whole urban agenda

21:41 issues have got integrated with the text of mitigation.

21:45 So if we can bring that in our national planning process, it can really drive the change.

21:53 And it is talking about how we need sustainable urbanization, sustainable mobility,

21:58 how people travel and commute in the cities, how we do thermal comfort in our buildings to

22:04 reduce air conditioning, how do we have heat action plans for cities.

22:09 So that will really help to reduce and mitigate the urban emissions, keeping in mind that cities

22:15 are both victims of climate change, all the extreme weather events, and they're also

22:21 contributed to climate change. Yes, they do. They do. You're absolutely right.

22:25 Is there anything else that you want to talk about before I close the conversation?

22:31 I just want to say that, you know, it doesn't help to just talk about the doomsday.

22:36 You know, we have to look at the opportunities for change.

22:40 That's a good way to do that. That's the very wrong way.

22:43 In a developing country like India, the opportunities, just look at it, even when we are

22:48 saying that the vehicle numbers are exploding, motorization is taking over, but yet the majority

22:54 of Indians are still walking, cycling and using public transport.

22:58 That is a true statement.

23:00 So if we invest in them, just imagine that, you know, we build on our own strength and

23:09 that is what we really want to showcase the world.

23:12 Technology solution exists, policy solution exists, but I think the time has also now

23:17 come for the mindset change, for people to bring change in their behavior, in their

23:22 consumption and reduce the overall intensity, the emission and the energy intensity of the

23:29 choices that we make and the roadmap that we really want to take forward.

23:34 So opportunity exists.

23:36 Now, how we leverage that, how do we give a direction to that and have the leapfrog

23:41 principle, we cannot be incremental about the change anymore.

23:44 So that needs to be enabled.

23:47 Do you have a lot of faith in the government that they can make it happen?

23:52 I'm sure it's never about us and them.

23:57 I believe that if you're able to change the practice and the public opinion, the politics

24:03 responds.

24:03 Okay.

24:05 Well, thank you very much, Anumita, for coming to our show.

24:10 And this is Frank Islam wishing you a great week and thank you for watching.

24:13 [Music]

24:28 [BLANK_AUDIO]

Frank Islam speaks with Anumita Roy Chowdhury, Indian environmentalist | Washington Calling

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