- 20/05/2025
The Jury Room S01E03
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00:00In the series you're about to see, we review real murder cases in which the convicted killer
00:11refuses to accept the guilty verdict. Days, weeks, even months of courtroom deliberations
00:17may have been held, but generally cases whittle down into a handful of key disputed points
00:23of evidence. Our specifically selected jury will review the original trial evidence alongside
00:30revelatory new evidence or analysis. Will you and the jury find the convicted killer
00:35guilty or perhaps not guilty?
00:43Hello, I'm Will Hanrahan. Welcome to The Jury Room. Today we are hearing the case of Susan May.
00:48Here's how it all began.
00:50An elderly woman is murdered in her own bed as part of what appears to be a burglary.
01:03There are no signs of forced entry. Detectives then suspect that the victim knew her killer.
01:10The woman's niece and primary carer is arrested after incriminating forensic evidence is discovered.
01:16Susan May is found guilty of murder, but did she do it?
01:21The Jury Room will debate the case of Susan May, a niece who killed her aunt,
01:26or an innocent suffering a miscarriage of justice.
01:31The Jury Room
01:45Susan May spent 12 years in jail for the murder of her aunt before being released on parole in 2005.
01:52As she battled breast cancer, Susan May determinedly fought to clear her name.
01:57In 2013, just weeks before a decision was due on whether to grant her a third appeal, she died a convicted killer.
02:05Her supporters believe that botched forensic tests, police inadequacies and poor defence representation
02:12in the initial trial resulted in an innocent woman going to jail.
02:17In the Jury Room, 12 specifically selected citizens will be asked to revisit the case
02:23and consider evidence not heard by the original jury before reaching their own verdict.
02:29Will they find Susan May guilty or not guilty of murder?
02:33First, let's hear from former senior detective Colin Sutton as we consider the prosecution case against Susan May.
02:41The Jury Room
02:46Hilda Marchbank, she was 89 years old. She lived in a house in Manchester.
02:51And in 1992, she was cared for by her niece, Susan May, who was a full-time carer,
02:58and also used to care for her own mother.
03:01And Susan May had access to the house, she had keys, because she would take the food round there.
03:07On the morning of March 12th that year, Susan May called the police to report the death of her Aunt Hilda.
03:13She had been attacked and was dead. In fact, she'd been suffocated.
03:17Detectives find something which becomes vital to the prosecution case.
03:21There's blood in various places, which is still consistent with being strangled or smothered.
03:28You get blood come up from inside the body.
03:33And there is blood around on the pillow and on the bed as well as on the body.
03:37Susan May says that she doesn't touch the body. She didn't touch the body when she went in there.
03:45This becomes important because as the investigation continues and the forensic scientific evidence retrieval starts,
03:53it's noted that there are three hand marks on a wall near where the body was,
03:59which are in a position which is consistent with somebody touching the wall on leaving the bedroom,
04:05and they appear to be in blood.
04:07Only one particular hand mark is established as being made in blood.
04:11That single print changes everything about the investigation of the case.
04:16A fingerprint in blood is always a very convincing piece of evidence.
04:21Whoever's left the marks on the wall is presumably our murderer, or was there at the time of the death.
04:27Susan May makes a conscious effort positively to say, no, I didn't touch her.
04:32She makes this denial on a number of occasions that she denies that she's touched the body at all.
04:38Of course, when the prints on the wall are examined,
04:41it's found that they do indeed match with Susan May's handprints, and they are hers.
04:49So you've got either an outright lie, or you've got to come up with some reason as to why they might be there.
04:55Susan May could not come up with a reason that her handprint was there.
04:59She must have been lying, and police uncover more incriminating evidence.
05:04A motive. You know, Susan May...
05:07It's so callous, isn't it?
05:09It's such a despicable crime to kill somebody that you're entrusted with caring for.
05:15Why would Susan May have done it?
05:17Well, she had debts, significant debts, not huge debts, but debts of around £7,000,
05:23but crucially, she had no real means to pay for it.
05:26She'd had access to Aunt Hilda's bank account and other family accounts,
05:31money to which she was entitled for her caring duties, but they were now exhausted.
05:36She still had this debt, and she would have been a beneficiary of Aunt Hilda's will.
05:41From the start, there was an alternative theory about the murder.
05:45Perhaps it had been a burglary which escalated into violence.
05:48That theory was soon discounted.
05:51The fact that the house had no signs of forced entry is persuasive
05:56in that if there were a burglary, one would expect, wouldn't one,
06:00that there was some way of forcing entry.
06:03Another piece of evidence convinced the police that Susan May was the killer.
06:07Scratches are discovered on the victim's face, and then Susan May asks an odd question.
06:13You know, if you scratch somebody else's face and you have fingernails of some sort,
06:19then DNA material from the face can be dragged under the fingernails.
06:25Now, Susan May asks a detective sergeant that very point and says,
06:31if you scratch somebody, does stuff get under your fingernails?
06:37Is the material there that can link you back to the person you scratched?
06:41Why would she ask that question?
06:43You know, is she asking it out of curiosity because she knows
06:47Aunt Hilda's been scratched and thinks this might help the police?
06:50Yeah, that's a possibility.
06:52But when it's looked at, she actually has altered her fingernails.
06:58There's an influence there, isn't there, that she's asking the question
07:01because she wants to know if she's vulnerable, and when she gets the answer,
07:04she thinks, I'd better do something about it so the police can't take that material.
07:09Now, our jury has selected a foreperson who will be tasked with collating the opinions
07:14and delivering the not guilty or guilty verdict, and it's Bryn Jones for this trial.
07:20Why was Bryn chosen, former policeman? Is that something to do with it or what?
07:24He knows how evidence works, and he wanted to do it, more importantly, so...
07:30OK, so Bryn Jones is our foreperson for the case against Susan May.
07:36Let's consider that evidence. I mean, what did we hear, guys?
07:40We heard about the prints on the wall.
07:43Now, on the VT, there are four marks on the wall, which appear to be four fingerprints,
07:51and we also heard that only one of those four marks, which would be four fingers,
07:56had significant evidence linking that to Susan May.
08:03Why would there be another three marks if it's not from her hand?
08:07So, handprint evidence in Hilda's blood suggests there's certainly reason for more.
08:14It obviously is her fingerprint and it is Hilda's blood,
08:17but could she not have touched the bed, not touched the body, not remember touching the body?
08:22She would have said. She denied touching the body.
08:24She said she doesn't remember touching...
08:26I don't remember touching anything.
08:28If you had murdered somebody, it would be very easy to say,
08:31well, actually, yeah, the first thing I did was go in and touch her, wouldn't you?
08:35I mean, wouldn't you say that, if you had murdered somebody?
08:38Yeah, yeah.
08:40How did she know she was dead if she didn't go up to her and touch her?
08:43Well, I think it's quite significant as well, her saying,
08:45I never touched her, and then to have her handprint shown in blood,
08:48because even if it was, like, some of us, I know, we're thinking
08:51it was the night before she maybe injured herself or another time,
08:54but she would mention that, because it's something big.
08:57I think the blood was from where she was smothered and it was coming out of...
09:00So I thought maybe it was an injury,
09:02but I think it was actually from where she was smothered,
09:04because on the VT they said it was...
09:07Yeah.
09:08Could she have touched, like, the pillow?
09:11No, because anything she touched in the vicinity of Hilda,
09:15she would have remembered that.
09:17Yeah.
09:18That's really important.
09:20Would you remember that you touched one part of the bed?
09:23It's just if there was a dead member of my family
09:26that I was in charge of taking care of and I found that person,
09:30I would pretty much remember everything I'd done from them.
09:34I don't think I would.
09:36No, because you know what?
09:38Maybe sometimes during the panic you've done something you don't know,
09:41you could be rushing, oh, my God, what have I done?
09:43You might not remember every specific thing that you've done.
09:46But if that fingerprint's gone from...
09:49That blood doesn't just remove from her hand just by touching that wall.
09:52So then they found it further down, maybe she's washed her hands,
09:55but how does she not know that if she don't remember touching that,
09:58how does she not know that she still had blood on her hands?
10:01What I don't understand is, if you go in,
10:04we've all talked about finding a family member dead,
10:07when the first thing you'd do would be to see if they were breathing,
10:11you would naturally touch that body.
10:13So I find her denial of touching the body
10:16completely unconvincing.
10:18If you're a carer, you've got to feel for a pulse, haven't you?
10:25So we'll have more time for debate,
10:27but I'm just making sure that we're clear
10:29that there was also the motive evidence that was put to the jury,
10:32which was from the police,
10:34and the random question about scratch marks, did we register that?
10:38That's really weird for me.
10:40Like, one, you'd ask that, like, why would you ask that, for starters?
10:44And then, two, after asking it, you make action to alter your hands.
10:48So that's very weird for me.
10:50I know it may not be as much of an importance to other people as it is to me,
10:55but such a tragic situation has happened,
10:58and someone you've cared for,
11:00to then just go out and, you know, you think,
11:02oh, my nails need to be enhanced.
11:04You know, it seems a bit strange.
11:06I get my nails done, they look a bit, you know...
11:10Do we know who the benefactors are,
11:12all the people who would benefit from the death?
11:15There was two.
11:16We said there were two, Susan and another.
11:18One was Susan May and one was another.
11:20Who was the other person?
11:21You know, that's what really gets me,
11:23because, I mean, you know, we all know about human nature,
11:26and I still, at this advanced age,
11:29am amazed by what people will do for money, you know.
11:32It's a huge motivation.
11:34And this woman had death.
11:36She hadn't got anywhere left.
11:38Especially for such a lot, like a bank account,
11:41just to be drained within such a short period of time.
11:44It's the timeline.
11:45She had the debt when the money was drained,
11:49so the only other thing that could happen
11:52is getting the money from the will.
11:54So that's the case for the prosecution that you'll be considering.
11:58If ten or more of our jurors find Susan May guilty,
12:02then a guilty verdict can be returned.
12:04If it's any fewer than ten,
12:06then a not guilty verdict has to be returned.
12:08What about the defence case?
12:10Let's hear about that after the break.
12:26Welcome back to the jury room.
12:28We've heard a summary of the prosecution case.
12:30Throughout this series, the jury will hear from a barrister,
12:33Professor Matthew Stanbury,
12:35who will analyse the case for the defence of Susan May.
12:41Susan May did not fit the profile of a killer.
12:45Well, Susan May was 48 years old.
12:47She was an upstanding woman.
12:49She had no previous convictions or anything of the sort.
12:52And her case, the defence case,
12:54was simply that she was caring for her aunt.
12:57She'd gone round the next day, she'd found the body,
12:59and she'd been horrified.
13:01The prosecution claimed that Susan May had lavished cash
13:04taken from the account of her aunt on her boyfriend,
13:07but the judge warned the jury in strong terms
13:10not to draw any conclusions about the money.
13:13Her defence was that she was entitled to that money,
13:17that she was entitled, certainly, to access it,
13:20and the judge very fairly at trial
13:22appears to have directed the jury not to get too bogged down in that.
13:25So the case very substantially, in the end,
13:28was based on these marks that were left on the bedroom wall
13:31that were said to be bloodstains.
13:35The defence at trial was sceptical about the conclusion
13:38that the mark with the handprint was in fact made in blood
13:41and that it was placed at the same time as the mark by the light switch.
13:45There'd been an incident a few weeks earlier
13:48when she had cut herself in the home
13:51and that was a possible explanation,
13:53and various other possible explanations were offered
13:56that the marks had got on the wall,
13:59and to say that these marks alone
14:01and this supposed motive of a financial motive
14:04were not anything close to being able to prove
14:07that she had committed this awful crime.
14:10It was reported that May had made incriminating comments
14:13about scratches on her aunt's face,
14:15but Susan May always vehemently denied
14:18having said anything about scratch marks,
14:20and there could be an innocent explanation
14:23as to why there was no forced entry.
14:25Susan May's aunt would frequently leave her door open
14:28or at least unlock, and that was one explanation
14:31as to how a burglar, an intruder,
14:34could have gained entry to the property,
14:37and that a burglary gone wrong
14:40was another entirely plausible explanation for this killing.
14:48We've heard the two sides of the Susan May case,
14:51so let's now consider what we've just heard about the defence case.
14:55I ask you again, let's find out,
14:57are we all clear what the defence case was?
15:00How can you say that she doesn't fit the profile of a killer
15:05and then establish that there is a motive
15:08and then be told to discount that motive?
15:10I just don't get that at all.
15:12Because if the motive of greed, an ancient motive,
15:16is as strong as I believe it to be,
15:19then there is no profile for a killer.
15:21Any of us, any of us could kill if we wanted the money enough.
15:26I think it's a really weak defence.
15:29With the door unlocking, like, my gran does that all the time.
15:33She'll put the key in the door, but she won't actually remember to lock it.
15:36So people go around trying the doors.
15:39Yeah, and people could... It could be known in the area
15:42that the old biddy, she doesn't lock up.
15:45But nothing was taken.
15:47Nothing was taken.
15:49I mean, what do they think, she had money under the bed or something?
15:52It doesn't sound like there's anything to do with burglary at all.
15:55There's no idea that she might have cut herself and might have...
15:58That's so convenient.
16:01And suffocation, isn't that supposed to be
16:03quite an intimate type of murder?
16:06When someone goes to...
16:08I would imagine it's, again, from a female perspective,
16:11I think that's one of the ways that a person actually murders, isn't it?
16:15Through suffocation.
16:17Cos females don't tend to do the more gruesome types of murders.
16:21So suffocation, again, I believe it's from someone...
16:25And she wouldn't have had...
16:27There wouldn't have been a lot of resistance to it.
16:29She could have been asleep.
16:31Not knowing many defensive words, because she would have been quite weak.
16:34And for me, as a carer,
16:37going in on a morning to get the lady up out of bed,
16:41to feed her, to clean her,
16:43and then on a night time, 9 o'clock, I believe it was,
16:47she's gone back to put the lady to bed,
16:50to make sure that she was safe in bed,
16:53it's her duty to lock the door on the way out.
16:56If that was the case...
16:57You're a carer, aren't you, Kerry?
16:59So how big a thing is it that a carer, in this case, will have locked the door?
17:04Absolutely, it's the last thing you do.
17:06First thing you do, you lock all the doors.
17:08That is your job.
17:10A massive part of your job is keeping that person safe.
17:13You're making sure the exits are clear,
17:17you're making sure that there's nothing left fire-wise,
17:22you're making sure there's nothing in view with the curtains closed and things.
17:27I mean, that is everything.
17:29Maybe there's another angle that we may be missing.
17:32Maybe she purposely left them doors open.
17:35Maybe she didn't come back, but maybe she knew somebody was.
17:37Maybe that's why she said, you know, it wasn't my blood,
17:39or, you know, I didn't touch my aunt, yeah.
17:44Why would you, if someone cut themselves previously,
17:48why would you just leave that print on the wall?
17:50Wouldn't you clean it up instantly?
17:52As a carer, as well.
17:53I've got to clean that up.
17:54You would clean that up.
17:56You wouldn't have blood on your wall.
17:58So the only way you wouldn't clean it up is if that happened in the heat of the moment.
18:01And she may not, she may be the murderer,
18:04may not remember actually touching that blood.
18:06That may be correct.
18:07That's just because, you know, because it's the heat of the moment.
18:10Absolutely, yeah, it happens so quick.
18:11If you were to murder someone and you put blood on the wall,
18:13why don't you go out and clean it anyway?
18:15Yeah, it's like 12 hours between when the next person,
18:18which is you anyway, comes back.
18:20She probably just didn't realise that she had blood on her hands.
18:22And probably touched it, yeah, that's true.
18:24That's the best you can have, blood left on your hands.
18:26You want to, like, make sure that there's no way it can come back around.
18:30The thing is, though, your scene is, this was premeditated and planned.
18:33She might have just felt extremely desperate at that time.
18:36You don't know what had gone on in that night.
18:39It might have kicked off and she did what she did.
18:43Can I ask what it's like to be you right now
18:45and to be told to disregard the evidence about money?
18:49How can you do that?
18:50God, that's a huge motive.
18:52I think it would always be just turning around in the back of your head.
18:55Yeah, I'll let you count it.
18:57I have been a carer as well.
19:00And if your client's suffering from dementia or Alzheimer's,
19:03they can get pretty nasty towards you.
19:05Yes.
19:06In a physical way as well as a verbal way.
19:08I mean, it could even have been that something happened that night
19:11and it just...it just happened, you know.
19:15She's really... At the end of the day,
19:17cos it's such a stressful job as well,
19:19and it could be that she'd had so much over the time that she's looking.
19:22But she wouldn't be in her bed?
19:24No, she could still be in her bed.
19:26She can take you from your bed.
19:27I think we're missing a massive point still.
19:29Could you spend £200,000 in a year?
19:32Well, if you... I spend it on a boyfriend.
19:34Yeah, but could you spend... Do you need to spend £200,000 in a year?
19:37There are other people I haven't asked yet.
19:39Hang on. Did Hilda own a house?
19:41Was there any inheritance left?
19:43That's what I was thinking.
19:44Cos the cash has gone.
19:45So what's the motive?
19:46If there's no cash to spend and we are not clear if Hilda owned a house...
19:51So, as Nicole's trying to figure out what could the motive be,
19:55having been told to disregard the money evidence,
19:57that's something for our jury to discuss.
19:59I can tell you that the original trial jury were unconvinced of the defence case
20:03and they found her guilty.
20:05Now, Susan May's campaigners, and there were a lot of them,
20:08and they were quick to action, maintained that she was innocent.
20:12Join us in part three because we're going to hear new evidence,
20:16new evidence which led to an appeal.
20:18See you after the break.
20:26Welcome back.
20:27Susan May was convicted of murder by a jury.
20:30They heard both sides of the case, they weighed up the evidence and found her guilty.
20:34Convicted prisoners must apply to a body called the Criminal Cases Review Commission
20:38and they must offer new evidence, which has emerged since the trial.
20:41That's then considered by three judges who have the power to quash the conviction
20:45or order a retrial.
20:47In the case of Susan May, the jury found her guilty.
20:50That's then considered by three judges who have the power to quash the conviction
20:53or order a retrial.
20:55Two appeals followed Susan May's conviction.
20:58The first suggested she simply had a memory loss
21:01and so had forgotten that she may have touched her aunt's body.
21:04Maybe that was why Susan's bloody handmark was on the wall.
21:08Judges dismissed her appeal.
21:10At the second appeal, the quality of the evidence given by the original forensic officer
21:15was brought into question.
21:20There was an issue about the possible contamination of the crime scene.
21:24It appears that a number of errors had been made
21:27to the point where in the second appeal the prosecution made a concession,
21:32agreed that the forensic expert who'd attended the scene
21:36was not somebody upon whom they could rely.
21:39He wasn't a reliable witness because he had made certain mistakes
21:43and a lot of that went towards the possibility
21:46that the marks on the wall had got there by some other means.
21:50In other words, they hadn't been caused by the assailant,
21:53by the murderer, the killer,
21:55that they had been caused by contamination of the crime scene
21:59by somebody at the scene having transferred blood
22:02either on their hands or when they were moving the body.
22:09That appeal was dismissed, but in 2013 new evidence emerged
22:14which the original jury trial did not hear.
22:22At the heart of the case against Susan May
22:24is the handprint and two smears present at the scene.
22:27However, new analysis relating to those marks could prove her innocence.
22:31Forensic reports by the former head of the National Fingerprint Service of the Netherlands,
22:35who re-examined the evidence using high-resolution images,
22:38suggested a fundamental weakness in the case against Susan May.
22:44He's cast doubt upon whether, in fact, these marks were blood at all
22:48and that the marks, in fact, may have been or were sweat marks on the wall
22:53and, indeed, that they may have been there for some time prior to the offence.
22:58And, of course, it's difficult at this stage to say where that evidence might lead,
23:03but on the face of it, clearly that is evidence
23:06which would significantly undermine the prosecution case,
23:11which so heavily depended on this having been Aunt Hilda's blood
23:15and it having been Susan May's handprint in that fresh blood.
23:19To understand why detectives could confuse a bloody handprint with a sweaty mark
23:24is also explainable by the process used at the scene.
23:28One of the issues that arises about the handprints
23:31is that they were treated with iodine at the scene,
23:34which, of course, has a tendency to darken the colouration of the prints.
23:38And the concern is that that might have led the jury
23:41to think that these marks had more of an appearance of blood,
23:45whereas, in fact, prior to being stained,
23:48they might have been more consistent with sweat or some other fluid.
23:52So that is an important issue that will obviously need to be considered.
23:57There's also another potential suspect in the case of Hilda Marchbanks,
24:01a known burglar who'd struck in the neighbourhood.
24:08It was suggested that not only was he a house burglar
24:11but that also he would target elderly victims,
24:14and that wasn't something that was known about at the time of the trial.
24:17And there is now some evidence that he was active in the area,
24:21operating in the area, may have been seen in the area.
24:24The burglar had been described in police files as a good suspect,
24:28and it's easy, say the defence, to see why.
24:31Also it's suggested that not only was he an active burglar
24:34but also that he could on occasions be violent
24:37and that there had been a violent robbery in the locality
24:41in which somebody had been badly beaten in the course of a burglary.
24:45And, of course, all of that would have been very much relevant,
24:48the defence would say,
24:50in terms of exploring possible alternative explanations for this killing.
24:57There were two witness reports of a red Ford Fiesta outside
25:00around the time of the murder.
25:02That added to the alternative theory of a burglar killer.
25:07We understand that there's some evidence that his sister's vehicle
25:11may have been seen in the vicinity,
25:13that the engine, the vicinity of the deceased's home,
25:17that the engine of that vehicle was running at the time,
25:20and also that that vehicle was sold sometime,
25:24a short time after the alleged offence.
25:27The police also received an anonymous phone call
25:30naming him as the killer.
25:32Of course the courts will always be careful about that evidence
25:36as to where that came from,
25:38but in the end it's still important evidence
25:41in terms of advancing a possible alternative explanation
25:45and an additional means of being able to say to a jury,
25:49look, you can't be sure that Susan May was guilty of this offence.
25:53She wasn't the only person with a possible motive.
25:57This was, as was suggested at the trial, a burglary gone wrong.
26:03The door was open, there was possible easy access
26:07for a known burglar to come into the house
26:10and to have been responsible for this killing.
26:17Colin Sutton, a senior investigator, dismissed those points.
26:21On the blood potentially being sweat, he said no,
26:24something called a Castle Meyer or KM test
26:27will have been carried out during the investigation.
26:34There are presumptive tests that were done in this case for blood
26:39and they can be, yes, they can be,
26:42there are certain substances that can fool that test,
26:47but sweat isn't one of them.
26:49And as I understand it, of course,
26:51by the time the Dutch expert gets to look at it,
26:54he's looking at images of the handprint and saying it isn't blood.
26:58If the KM test that was used at the time
27:01the presumptive test for blood said it was blood,
27:03I'd be inclined to go with that.
27:05The judge at the original trial told jurors to discount the evidence
27:09which suggested a money motive on the part of Susan May to kill her aunt.
27:13But investigators still believe that is relevant evidence
27:16and should not be discounted.
27:18I accept the fact that the judge told the jury not to worry
27:21about the money that Susan May had taken from the accounts,
27:25but that still doesn't get away from the fact that that money was exhausted.
27:30Although it was hers, there was no more,
27:33and she was £7,000 in debt with no means of paying it.
27:36So I would maintain that notwithstanding that we shouldn't look back,
27:41but it's still the case that she owed £7,000
27:44and had no means to meet those debts
27:46and stood to benefit from Aunt Hilda dying.
27:49After the defence has spent decades of searching to prove
27:52that Hilda Marchbanks had been killed by a burglar,
27:55the prosecution remains unconvinced.
27:57It's a sad fact of life, isn't it?
27:59In urban areas that people do burglaries.
28:02You know, I don't think anyone's suggesting
28:05that this area was a burglary-free zone.
28:09Burglaries do go on. Where is the evidence?
28:13We have one handprint there that is definitely Susan May.
28:17Susan May had the opportunity, she had the keys,
28:20she had the means to access the house.
28:30So that's it.
28:31We've heard the evidence which was put before the original trial jury,
28:35we've heard the prosecution and the defence, we've heard the appeal,
28:38we've summed it up, we've had a rebuttal of the evidence put there.
28:41Where do we stand?
28:43I'm still not convinced it was a burglary.
28:46And even the person that was known in the area,
28:50he brutally beats them.
28:53This wasn't the case in this one either.
28:55She was suffocated with a pillow.
28:57So I don't think that's one and the same.
28:59And I'm still not convinced that there's actually been a burglary.
29:02There's still the issue of the door, which you made.
29:05If Susan had locked the door, then the door's not open, is it?
29:12I think it's easy to establish as well that this was blood.
29:16It was Susan May's prints that was connected with that blood.
29:20She did deny ever touching Hilda Marksbank and she was her carer.
29:25She would have known that door was unlocked as well.
29:28And all that money, £200,000, is a lot of money to spend in a year.
29:32I know maybe, as a family,
29:35advantage was taken maybe of her deteriorating health,
29:38but it's a lot of money to spend.
29:40And maybe some tracks needed to be covered.
29:42And there's a lot of inheritance still at stake.
29:44I still want to get into her records, into her financial records,
29:48of what she's paid for and how.
29:50I'm talking about Susan.
29:53Because that would establish as well
29:55whether she's been using the money personally.
29:57Like you say, it's a lot of money to spend.
29:59It's not gone on a sandwich here and there.
30:01It's gone on mortgages or something, hasn't it?
30:03There's a boyfriend, isn't there?
30:05You could be putting pressure on her to spend money on him.
30:08You don't know. They might have had trips.
30:10It would be interesting to know who the other beneficiary was
30:13and whether or not they had any debts,
30:16whether they had access to the house as well.
30:20It would be good to know, but that's something that you'd assume
30:23would have been...that would have been investigated.
30:26We've not heard any evidence for or against them.
30:29We know they had keys, but we don't know about debts, do we?
30:32Also the way she acted when she got there.
30:34She didn't touch her body. She didn't try to help when she got there.
30:38So she says, although she may be mistaken.
30:41It is her blood... Sorry, it is her fingerprint,
30:43it is her handprint probably on the wall.
30:46It just doesn't really ring true that she would not try to help.
30:49Not try to help the body.
30:51She also denied the fact that she'd asked about the fingernails
30:54and the DNA under the fingernails.
30:56Why would she deny that? It seems a bit odd.
30:58You see somebody, not just a relative, but somebody that you're caring for,
31:01you see blood, you see them, they look like they're in distress,
31:03you're going to help them. Absolutely.
31:05You're going to try and move them.
31:07What do you make of this Dutch fingerprint expert, though,
31:09who said it's not blood?
31:11He was relying on photographs. He wasn't relying on the real evidence.
31:13That's the thing.
31:15The policeman said that it would have been done, didn't he?
31:17The policeman said that that particular type of test
31:20would have been done at the time.
31:22But the forensic examiner was...
31:24That's why they got the appeal the first time, wasn't it?
31:26Because the forensic examiner was dodgy.
31:28They found a flaw in part of his...
31:31The way he's carried out the...
31:33Which could be something as simple as a tick in a box.
31:36He could have skipped the test,
31:38but this guy is working on a photograph of some fingerprints on the wall.
31:44You can't say that's iodine on there,
31:47because that looks like iodine.
31:49So you've got the points, you've got the issues,
31:52you've got the two sides to weigh up.
31:55It'll be time for you in a few minutes to come to your verdict.
31:58For now, and we won't discuss this during the break,
32:02we'll simply be considering all of the evidence
32:05when you join us in a few minutes' time.
32:14Welcome back to the Jury Room.
32:16It is time for the verdict from our jury.
32:18But before we hear from them, a summary of the case of Susan May
32:22from both the perspectives of the prosecution and defence.
32:29Hilda Marchbank was murdered in her bed one spring evening.
32:32Theories that a burglar had carried out the murder were dismissed
32:35when there were no signs of the murder.
32:37The jury's verdict was that it was a murder.
32:40Theories that a burglar had carried out the murder were dismissed
32:43when there were no signs of forced entry.
32:45Three marks on the walls leading from Hilda's bed were discovered,
32:48and one of them was Susan May's handprint.
32:51She denied all along touching the bloodied body of her aunt.
32:55It was alleged that she was a liar,
32:57had motive as a beneficiary of Hilda's estate,
33:00and led a secret, expensive lifestyle with a lover.
33:03Till her dying day, she protested her innocence,
33:06having been found guilty and lost to appeals.
33:09Although an alternative theory based on forensic examination
33:12of the marks on the wall has been put forward,
33:15the handprint was not caused by blood but by sweat.
33:18If that's true, the case against Susan May is considerably weakened.
33:22And there are suggestions the killing could have taken place
33:25as a result of a burglary gone wrong.
33:32And so, Bryn Jones, who's our foreperson, a 30-year policeman,
33:36is going to lead us now as you consider your verdict.
33:39What we've heard, we've heard that there's a motive.
33:44We've got evidence involving fingerprints.
33:48We have...
33:50The lady is a carer who would, first thing in the morning,
33:55go around, open the door with her key to get the lady out of bed,
34:00and on her night-time, she would go back and put the lady to bed
34:04and lock the door on the way out.
34:07So, we have a secure property, but we also have a motive
34:13and we also have a presumption that there may have been a burglary gone wrong,
34:17but there's no forced entry to the property at all.
34:20So, weigh up that evidence for us, jury.
34:25I can make up stories in my head, and I can see a scenario.
34:31I mean, two of us have...
34:33You're a carer and you've been a carer.
34:35You say you can suddenly snap.
34:37Elderly people can be very, very difficult, very fractious.
34:41And I'm imagining a scenario where the night before,
34:44there was a little row, a little struggle.
34:47Maybe she didn't mean to kill her, but she just snapped.
34:50And then panicked, you know, and blood on the wall.
34:53And then she comes back in the morning,
34:55because she's not a very sophisticated person.
34:57The question about material under fingernails is,
35:00most people know the answer to that.
35:02She comes back in the morning and rings the police
35:05and thinks that, you know, she's going to have discovered a crime.
35:08I can just see this happening.
35:10I hate the picture of it in my head, but do you know what I mean?
35:13Because you said that.
35:15That's exactly what I saw.
35:17But these are presumptions. We have to work on the facts.
35:20I think it's a presumption brought on by...
35:22It's such a weak defence, in my opinion.
35:24There is not a part of the defence...
35:26I can't really think they're clutching at straws a little bit.
35:29That is supposition, and I apologise.
35:31But I'm not a convinced person.
35:33Yeah.
35:35When you ask somebody a question about the trace of, like,
35:39a finger, yeah, underneath your nails and stuff,
35:42OK, asking that question is a bit weird anyway.
35:47But then going to, like, do something about it and, like...
35:50And then denying you said it.
35:52And then denying that you've actually touched this person as well.
35:56Like Ben said, I mean, that's such a callous thing to go and do.
35:59You've just... It's your auntie.
36:01Yeah, it's family. It's your family.
36:03It's the person you care for on a daily basis.
36:05You can't help but become quite involved with these people,
36:08even if you weren't related.
36:10But this is a relative, and you go out and get your hands manicured.
36:13That's a weird...
36:14There's also such a massive amount of money that's gone missing.
36:17It's the last bit of Hilda Marchbank's money.
36:19This must have been there for a number of years.
36:21And you think... It's the way that...
36:23Sooner or later, she's going to start asking questions,
36:25where is that money? I know she wasn't...
36:27And the old, old people. At what point was it exhausted?
36:30How long before the murder was it exhausted?
36:32Had she just got to the end of the money?
36:34Maybe she'd asked her aunt for more money.
36:36Maybe that was the reason. That was the reason, yeah.
36:39There was a good amount of money in the will.
36:41Because old people don't spend their money.
36:43In our series so far, I think I've detected that Carrie
36:47is empathetic enough to listen to both sides.
36:50But in this case, you a carer, you seem...
36:53I don't know, maybe it's because you understand being a carer
36:57more than the rest of us, and Kim has been a carer.
37:00Is that why you, I sense, are finding it difficult
37:03to believe Susan May's story?
37:05Yeah, I think so.
37:06I mean, like I say, whether it's relative or not relative,
37:09you can't help but... Unless you're...
37:11I mean, people that go into the care profession
37:15generally have got a nice personality,
37:18they have a caring personality.
37:20And so if you're going into it because,
37:22just purely based on the fact that you are actually a family member,
37:26you may have an actual resentment towards the person
37:29because you're having to look after them.
37:31But if you're being a paid carer and you're going into that profession
37:34because that's what you want to do,
37:36you do make and form a relationship.
37:38You can't not form a relationship.
37:40And if she's been with that person for so long...
37:43I mean, my first initial thought would be...
37:45I mean, I'd be in bits, I'd be in absolute bits.
37:47The first phone call I'd want to hear, I'd want to hear the 999 call.
37:50The whole picture and the money that's been drained from the account,
37:53the inheritance that she's, you know, to gain.
37:57You know, caring for her, being a family member,
38:00and everything you think together, like she's got...
38:02I mean, little things like getting your nails done just soon after.
38:05That may be nothing, that may be comfort to some people.
38:07Some people could be thinking, you know, I would do the same.
38:09But I don't personally feel that, and that's for you to decide,
38:12but it's just a question she's asked.
38:14It don't seem like... You know, did she suffer?
38:16May be the first question.
38:18Do you find yourself still influenced by the money?
38:22We know that there was a will.
38:24We know that Susan was on that will.
38:26That is still motive in my eyes.
38:28There was still money and there was still a house to be gained.
38:33She still had debt.
38:35Desperate times.
38:37We can try to be the detectives as much as we like,
38:40but the facts are the facts,
38:42and there's a bloody handprint.
38:44I mean, the prosecution said tests would have been done.
38:47I feel like the defence are clutching at straws,
38:50and the defence are doing what the defence would normally do.
38:53It's a distraction.
38:54That's what they said about the burglar,
38:56to kind of, like, throw us off, to say...
38:58Cos he's a well-known burglar, we're going to think...
39:01But it's weak at the end of the day,
39:03and this car, the red car that was outside,
39:05how do we know the burglar didn't just drive off and dump it
39:08because he thought, I don't want to be associated with this crime?
39:11It was for someone that was actually the opposite side of the road.
39:14They just dashed in to pick something up and dashed back out of it
39:17because they left the motor running.
39:19Yeah, exactly, so you just can't pinpoint that.
39:21So it happened in the 90s.
39:23That's the thing, a lot of money is subjective.
39:25If she was a carer and she didn't have any money left
39:28and she had a boyfriend that she was spending money on,
39:31£7,000 is a lot of money.
39:33To us, it might not feel like a lot of money.
39:35I personally think it's a huge amount of money
39:37and I would be freaked out having that kind of debt.
39:40You know, it's subjective, a lot of money is subjective.
39:43I just think it's important to consider the motive of what was going on.
39:48I think, yeah, maybe disregard the money factor of it,
39:52but the motive behind what she was doing is still important for me.
39:56I don't know if you'd carry on, even after you've served your sentence,
40:00you've been released from prison, would you carry on if you were guilty?
40:04Would you carry on saying, I didn't do it, I didn't do it?
40:07I'm not going to carry on protesting her innocence.
40:10Why? She's done her time.
40:12If she did commit this murder, once she's confirmed as being innocent,
40:15she's named back into that world again.
40:17But she died protesting her innocence.
40:20And she had cancer and she knew there wasn't...
40:25Could be family members that stood to inherit that
40:28if it was found that she wasn't guilty.
40:30Again, you're looking further and further.
40:32I noticed that and that's interesting to watch.
40:34I'm intrigued why she continued to deny any involvement in it as she was dying.
40:41I'm not saying that should cloud our judgement,
40:44but I'm interested in that fact.
40:46Does that strike any of you?
40:48Yeah, it is. It's been bothering me,
40:50because I'm leaning very much in a certain direction,
40:53but this is what bothers me.
40:55Why do you go on protesting your innocence?
40:57And you're going to meet your maker, if you like,
41:00and you don't want to die a convicted criminal
41:02for having done something.
41:04That unsettles me.
41:06Or you just don't want to die in jail.
41:08Yeah, well, she's out. No, she's out.
41:10She's on parole.
41:12But she may have wanted to die without a stain on her name.
41:14Yeah, that's what I mean.
41:15And some people just don't want to admit to what they've done.
41:17They will defend themselves to the end.
41:19Could be the fact she was innocent, could be the fact she didn't want to admit to it
41:22before she died, she wanted to remain denying.
41:24Or it could be the fact that maybe she believed her family
41:27could inherit what she feels she should have inherited.
41:30I've actually been thrown across the room myself by an old lady.
41:34And generally they're up and about
41:36and they're actually really difficult to keep in bed
41:39when they're starting to lose it a little bit.
41:41So I find it weird the person being in bed could actually have attacked someone.
41:46I don't feel that that rings true either.
41:48So we're seconds away from you being asked to give your verdict.
41:52Anybody with any burning thing that they have to make
41:55before we reach that verdict to convince other people of your position?
41:58Just on the note that carries me,
42:00the snapping could have been the realisation
42:04that there was no money left in the pot.
42:07Where am I going to get that? Why am I going to look after you?
42:10I'm not going to get paid anymore.
42:12Could be looking after desperation.
42:14You know, and it's, well, I've got no money.
42:17Well, you're no use to me anymore.
42:19We don't know what's going on between her and her boyfriend.
42:21He could be saying he's going to leave her.
42:23So it is that time.
42:26Bryn will know, but at least ten of you have to return a guilty verdict
42:30for a verdict of guilty to be delivered by you as our jury.
42:35Let's get your verdicts now.
42:37I'll start at this end with you, Janet.
42:41A nurse, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
42:48I think she's guilty.
42:50Let's move along to Gurpreet.
42:52Gurpreet, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
42:57I find her guilty.
42:59Let's swap over to the other side of our jury now.
43:01Let's go to Cara, Kerry.
43:03Kerry, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:07Guilty.
43:08And, Tracy, next to you,
43:10do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:13Guilty.
43:15Let's go to Belle. Belle, there's one thing puzzling you.
43:18I'd like to know how you resolved that as I ask you,
43:22did you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:25Guilty.
43:27Kim, also a former carer,
43:30do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:32Guilty.
43:34And next to you, Jess, psychology graduate,
43:37do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:40Guilty.
43:42Let's cross back now to Nicole and Ben.
43:44First to you, Nicole.
43:46Nicole, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:49Guilty.
43:50Ben, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:53Guilty.
43:54Let's go up four-person next.
43:56Bryn, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
43:59I find her guilty.
44:01Which leaves me with Adrian and Trevor.
44:03Adrian, first you.
44:04Do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
44:06Guilty.
44:08Trevor, finally, do you find Susan May guilty or not guilty?
44:11Guilty.
44:13Bryn, I'm going to ask you, you've been collating for us,
44:15to return the jury's verdict.
44:17Do stand.
44:19In the case of Susan May, what is your verdict?
44:21Guilty unanimously.
44:26Thank you, Bryn, and thank you to our jury.
44:29This has been a full television trial
44:31based on the facts and the evidence
44:33established in the case against Susan May.
44:35The jurors are members of the public,
44:37they've made their own decisions.
44:39What's your verdict?
44:40We'll see you next time in the jury room.
44:45This has been a full television trial
44:47based on the facts and the evidence
44:49established in the case against Susan May.
44:51The jurors are members of the public,
44:53they've made their own decisions.
44:55What's your verdict?
44:57We'll see you next time in the jury room.
44:59This has been a full television trial
45:01based on the facts and the evidence
45:03established in the case against Susan May.
45:05The jurors are members of the public,
45:07they've made their own decisions.
45:09What's your verdict?
45:11We'll see you next time in the jury room.
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