00:00We're going to ask about defense and the Indo-Pacific with our guest, David Camrou, of the French Political Science Institute Sciences Po.
00:10Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
00:14My pleasure.
00:15First off, France, again, looking for daylight, though, between China and the United States at this time.
00:24We're speaking on the day after tariffs against the EU were paused by Donald Trump.
00:30They're not paused when it comes to Vietnam, though.
00:34No, I mean, they're the highest after Cambodia, 46 percent being imposed.
00:39I think what one needs to understand is that we have a Donald Trump, we have a United States, which is somehow stuck, at least mentally, in the 19th century.
00:48Donald Trump thinks in terms of spheres of influence and that Europe should worry about Europe, China should be the Asia-Pacific, and after that, the United States, well, that's the Pacific, the Indo-Pacific.
01:04And so the fact that President Macron is there giving this European perspective that, you know, we are the third party, we are reliable, that's the key word, we are reliable.
01:15And that's in contrast with the United States of Donald Trump, which is unreliable as a partner.
01:22And also to insist on multilateralism and on minilateralism and on the rules-based order, that goes down very well, indeed, in Southeast Asia, because what the countries of Southeast Asia want is not to have to choose between China and the United States.
01:40And the U.S. in particular is pushing them to make that choice.
01:43And they do not want to make that choice between their largest trading partner and, for some at least, their security guarantor.
01:50And the French, what kind of view towards them?
01:55Just another trading partner?
01:57Is the past all forgotten?
01:58Because we've been looking at those images at the memorial there for victims of Vietnam's war for independence.
02:08France's colonial past, all that, is it all in the past in the eyes of Vietnamese?
02:14No, it's not all in the past.
02:16It's one of the reasons being the importance of the Vietnamese diaspora in France throughout Europe.
02:22The Czech Republic has the largest Vietnamese diaspora in the world in relation to its population.
02:29And that diaspora in Europe and the United States plays an increase, a very important role, both in trade questions, but also in making sure that Vietnam remains on the radar screen.
02:42And that France continues to be engaged.
02:46And that diaspora, by the way, David Camerou, it's here in France, at least, we found, doing reporting for the 50th anniversary of Saigon becoming the South Vietnamese, quitting Saigon.
03:01We found that diaspora was split.
03:05Some people who still want to call it Saigon, others who don't.
03:08For some, it's Liberation Day.
03:10For some, it's the fall of Saigon.
03:12That diaspora, when you say they keep Vietnam on the radar, how do they do it?
03:16Well, there's an increasing convergence, especially amongst the younger generation, for whom the, you know, the splits of the past.
03:27Remember that in Vietnam itself, 80% of the population has been born, 70% since 1975, since reunification.
03:34And so what I find, for example, with my students of the Vietnamese diaspora, that they're all sort of Vietnamese, or at least they revel in their Vietnamese ancestry, and that's part of their identity.
03:47And so, you know, both in the North and South, people from the North and South, both share the same adversary, which was, which remains historically China.
04:01So, you know, in the situation where Vietnam is seeking support in its constantly conflictual relationship with China, it's also a very positive trade relationship, but it's not an easy relationship.
04:17But France is, and Europe in general, is important.
04:21And there's, on this three-nation trip, Donald Trump, Donald Trump, Emmanuel Macron, forgive me, will be going to Singapore for that defense conference.
04:34Tell us a bit about how France sees itself in relation to this defense question, particularly when he wasn't really talking so much in his speech.
04:47About China, more about China, more about the United States.
04:52Yes, once again, you know, France and Europe in general, is that third party.
04:58France is the only resident European power in the Indo-Pacific, and France in particular plays a very strong role in the South Pacific.
05:06It's above the equator where things become more complicated.
05:09And so, in some ways, the Americans don't want Europe to be there, at least in strategic terms, or even in economic terms, in the Indo-Pacific.
05:19It's very interesting that about a week ago, the Americans criticized the British for sending a fleet with the aircraft carrier, Queen Elizabeth, around the Indo-Pacific.
05:28You can basically say, well, look, worry about Europe, you know, this is our area.
05:32So, it is becoming sort of more difficult for France, in particular, and Europe in general to talk about their Indo-Pacific commitment.
05:41But I think, once again, it's in the provision of military equipment, so you're not dependent on the United States.
05:49It's in supporting, you know, multilateral solutions, midilateral solutions, which respect the international order, the rule of law, that there's a convergence of interest.
06:01And certainly, that's something that he will insist upon, I think, in his keynote speech in the Shangri-La Dialogue, which is the foremost defense forum in Asia.
06:12And you saw that it's a state visit in Vietnam.
06:17There is the first lady who's there, and we saw, we talked earlier about Slapgate, as it's being called, that moment.
06:24Bringing Brigitte Macron for this kind of visit, is it important?
06:28Yes, it is, because, you know, we are in societies who put a great deal of value on family.
06:37And so, you know, that gives an extra dimension that there is that, that Brigitte Macron is present.
06:45It's unfortunate that in the social media, we're only going to talk about that, and we're not going to talk about the substantive things that have occurred in this visit,
06:52and will occur, particularly in Indonesia, and also later in Singapore.
06:56David Camarou, many thanks for being with us here on France 24.
