Macron in Indonesia: French president presses ahead on his South Asia tour amid increasingly unstable global landscape

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00:00France and Indonesia have signed a preliminary defence pact,

00:04which Emmanuel Macron says could lead to new orders of military equipment from Paris.

00:09The French president met with his Indonesian counterpart,

00:12Prabowo Subianto, in Jakarta on Wednesday, continuing his tour of Southeast Asia.

00:17Macron is seeking to promote France as a balancing power between the United States and China.

00:23Prabowo did not mention the new pact,

00:25but said France was one of Indonesia's main partners in upgrading military hardware.

00:30The leaders also discussed the conflict in the Middle East,

00:33the Indonesian president pledging to recognise Israel if Israel recognised a Palestinian state.

00:39Well, for more on this, we can bring in Zachary Abouza,

00:42who's a professor in national security strategy at the National War College.

00:47Thank you very much for speaking to us on France 24.

00:51I want to start with Indonesia.

00:53I mean, it's France's biggest arms client in Southeast Asia.

00:56So what's at stake in this visit for Paris?

01:00Indonesia is a huge growth market for defence spending.

01:07They have the second largest military spending in Southeast Asia,

01:11but their needs are enormous.

01:14This has traditionally been an army-centric military,

01:18and they've undercapitalised their air force and navy.

01:21And these are just kind of two sectors that France is very adept at and can fill a void that Indonesia needs.

01:32It's still a very tough marketplace to enter.

01:36Indonesia is a notoriously bureaucratic and corrupt country,

01:40and they have a tendency to shop for bargains.

01:47And so they'll often buy systems from one with electronics from another.

01:53They don't always talk well to each other.

01:55But I think that the French are well-equipped to fill a role in this market.

02:03America is looking very unreliable.

02:07And I think the French are willing to give in to some of the Indonesian demands

02:11about technology transfer and licence production.

02:14Well, is Macron also seeking to capitalise on insecurity created by Donald Trump's trade wars?

02:22Absolutely, as any good European leader should right now.

02:27The Americans are leaving a lot of concerns about American commitment to regional security,

02:34about their own treaty obligations to allies and partners.

02:39And countries like Indonesia, which have long sought to hedge,

02:44are using the opportunity accorded by the America First foreign policy of President Trump

02:50to diversify their foreign relations, to diversify their defence supply lines and acquisitions and balance.

03:02And what about human rights issues in Indonesia and the past of the president?

03:07Does France have any qualms about this?

03:11Well, any democracy should.

03:14Prabowo Subianto has just an egregious human rights record from his time as a military commander in East Timor and Papua.

03:25And he has been allegedly tied to some of the Jakarta riots in 1998,

03:31when his former father-in-law, Sukharto, was forced from power.

03:35He had long been banned from entering the United States due to that human rights record.

03:43The Americans obviously changed their position when he became the defence minister under the former president.

03:51And, you know, he is a democratically elected president.

03:55He won a majority in the first round of elections.

03:58And, you know, I think we should always hold the Indonesians to account.

04:05But remember, this is a country that has gone in 25 years from a military dictatorship to a democracy.

04:12And so, you know, there have been problems.

04:16And Prabowo is a problematic figure.

04:19And there has been some democratic reversals already in his tenure.

04:25But he is the president we have to work with.

04:29And earlier, the president of Indonesia did say, reminding our viewers,

04:33that Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim majority country.

04:37He said that Jakarta was willing to recognise and open diplomatic relations with Israel

04:42if an independent Palestinian state was recognised by Israel.

04:46Are these comments a big deal?

04:50It's important.

04:51While Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world,

04:55they do not really get respect or are seen as a leader in the Muslim world.

05:00That is largely dominated by the Arab states.

05:04Indonesia certainly would like a greater leadership role and feels they deserve it.

05:10I think it is an important step, though.

05:14I think it gives cover to some of the other countries in the region.

05:20Indonesia has tried to play a mediating or a diplomatic role in the Middle East,

05:26but no one has really taken them that seriously in the past.

05:29But it doesn't hurt that he has made that offer.

05:35And I think it's imperative that we continue to press for a two-state solution.

05:41All right, Zachary Abouza.

05:42Fortunately, that's all we have time for.

05:44Thank you very much for speaking to us on France 24.

05:46Thanks for having me.

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