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00:00France and Indonesia have signed a preliminary defence pact,
00:04which Emmanuel Macron says could lead to new orders of military equipment from Paris.
00:09The French president met with his Indonesian counterpart,
00:12Prabowo Subianto, in Jakarta on Wednesday, continuing his tour of Southeast Asia.
00:17Macron is seeking to promote France as a balancing power between the United States and China.
00:23Prabowo did not mention the new pact,
00:25but said France was one of Indonesia's main partners in upgrading military hardware.
00:30The leaders also discussed the conflict in the Middle East,
00:33the Indonesian president pledging to recognise Israel if Israel recognised a Palestinian state.
00:39Well, for more on this, we can bring in Zachary Abouza,
00:42who's a professor in national security strategy at the National War College.
00:47Thank you very much for speaking to us on France 24.
00:51I want to start with Indonesia.
00:53I mean, it's France's biggest arms client in Southeast Asia.
00:56So what's at stake in this visit for Paris?
01:00Indonesia is a huge growth market for defence spending.
01:07They have the second largest military spending in Southeast Asia,
01:11but their needs are enormous.
01:14This has traditionally been an army-centric military,
01:18and they've undercapitalised their air force and navy.
01:21And these are just kind of two sectors that France is very adept at and can fill a void that Indonesia needs.
01:32It's still a very tough marketplace to enter.
01:36Indonesia is a notoriously bureaucratic and corrupt country,
01:40and they have a tendency to shop for bargains.
01:47And so they'll often buy systems from one with electronics from another.
01:53They don't always talk well to each other.
01:55But I think that the French are well-equipped to fill a role in this market.
02:03America is looking very unreliable.
02:07And I think the French are willing to give in to some of the Indonesian demands
02:11about technology transfer and licence production.
02:14Well, is Macron also seeking to capitalise on insecurity created by Donald Trump's trade wars?
02:22Absolutely, as any good European leader should right now.
02:27The Americans are leaving a lot of concerns about American commitment to regional security,
02:34about their own treaty obligations to allies and partners.
02:39And countries like Indonesia, which have long sought to hedge,
02:44are using the opportunity accorded by the America First foreign policy of President Trump
02:50to diversify their foreign relations, to diversify their defence supply lines and acquisitions and balance.
03:02And what about human rights issues in Indonesia and the past of the president?
03:07Does France have any qualms about this?
03:11Well, any democracy should.
03:14Prabowo Subianto has just an egregious human rights record from his time as a military commander in East Timor and Papua.
03:25And he has been allegedly tied to some of the Jakarta riots in 1998,
03:31when his former father-in-law, Sukharto, was forced from power.
03:35He had long been banned from entering the United States due to that human rights record.
03:43The Americans obviously changed their position when he became the defence minister under the former president.
03:51And, you know, he is a democratically elected president.
03:55He won a majority in the first round of elections.
03:58And, you know, I think we should always hold the Indonesians to account.
04:05But remember, this is a country that has gone in 25 years from a military dictatorship to a democracy.
04:12And so, you know, there have been problems.
04:16And Prabowo is a problematic figure.
04:19And there has been some democratic reversals already in his tenure.
04:25But he is the president we have to work with.
04:29And earlier, the president of Indonesia did say, reminding our viewers,
04:33that Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim majority country.
04:37He said that Jakarta was willing to recognise and open diplomatic relations with Israel
04:42if an independent Palestinian state was recognised by Israel.
04:46Are these comments a big deal?
04:50It's important.
04:51While Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world,
04:55they do not really get respect or are seen as a leader in the Muslim world.
05:00That is largely dominated by the Arab states.
05:04Indonesia certainly would like a greater leadership role and feels they deserve it.
05:10I think it is an important step, though.
05:14I think it gives cover to some of the other countries in the region.
05:20Indonesia has tried to play a mediating or a diplomatic role in the Middle East,
05:26but no one has really taken them that seriously in the past.
05:29But it doesn't hurt that he has made that offer.
05:35And I think it's imperative that we continue to press for a two-state solution.
05:41All right, Zachary Abouza.
05:42Fortunately, that's all we have time for.
05:44Thank you very much for speaking to us on France 24.
05:46Thanks for having me.