G20 'achieves consensus on diverse points of view amid changing of economic philosophy across world'

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00:00The G20, which, by the way, included a sidebar meeting between France's president and India's

00:05prime minister.

00:06India, which at the time of spiraling superpower tensions is both a member of the Quad, a security

00:12grouping that includes Australia, India, Japan, and the U.S., but also the BRICS, powered

00:17by Russia and China.

00:19Our guest is completing a four-year stint as Delhi's man in Paris, outgoing Indian ambassador

00:25to France, Jawed Ashraf.

00:27Thank you for speaking with us here.

00:28Thank you for having me.

00:29Good evening.

00:31These are changing times.

00:34You're departing in a moment of transition in Washington, and it feels like a moment

00:39of uncertainty globally.

00:42There was a G20 summit last year in India.

00:44A lot has changed since when we just saw wrap up in Rio.

00:48Well, thank you very much.

00:50It is, I think, not just because of the election in the United States that it's a period of

00:55change.

00:56We are witnessing sweeping changes in politics, in geopolitics, economics, technology, shifting

01:03equations between countries, weakening of international order for quite a while.

01:08Also, I think a changing of economic philosophy in the world, across the world.

01:13Those who are the architects, I think, of the international order as we know it are

01:17no longer interested in it.

01:18In some cases, they are actually quite opposed to it, as we see now.

01:23Now, I think what we saw in G20, though, I'd say is something very positive.

01:28I think you must recognize in this time of fractious time, there is a great deal of unity,

01:33at least cohesion, and getting a consensus.

01:36And I think the Delhi G20 summit was instrumental in saving G20 from collapsing because we did

01:42achieve a consensus when no one expected it.

01:45Consensus on what?

01:47Consensus on actually getting a statement that reflected diverse points of view.

01:53And this is important because G20 is perhaps today the only platform globally where leaders

01:58of major countries from diverse geographies, from different circumstances are actually

02:02coming together to debate on a whole set of issues and then set directions for the future.

02:08And you would recall that last year there was a lot of concern whether because of Ukraine

02:11there would even be a consensus and that whether politics will derail the original objective

02:16of G20, which is to shape the direction of the world towards a more prosperous, inclusive

02:21future.

02:22And I think G20 achieved that last year in saving the future of G20 and also making it

02:27more inclusive.

02:28And we had Africa Union join G20, which was quite an anomaly not to have them.

02:34Since then, we've seen Indonesia, India, Brazil, and then next South Africa will leave G20,

02:41which is a great signal that countries are emerging, countries emerging democracies

02:47But a lot is changing.

02:48Concomitant to that G20 is the COP29 climate talks taking place in Azerbaijan.

02:55It's tough going, I'm told, with 48 hours to go.

02:58And the question is, the climate sort of overall goals that they agreed upon in the communique

03:04in Rio, are those ready to be torn up after January the 20th?

03:11Well I think we'll have to wait and see where we actually go on this because, you know,

03:14we'll let the new administration come into office and then we'll see how they approach

03:19this issue.

03:20But then the United States is perhaps not the only arbiter of where we go on the climate

03:27goals.

03:28There are a larger set of issues we need to be honest about in addressing this, including

03:32unfulfilled promises, shifting goalposts, the absence of real collective global effort

03:39in recognition in accordance with the principles of common but differentiated responsibilities.

03:45I think if the world is able to come together without the United States in addressing the

03:51issue in a sincere, fair, equitable, just manner, we will be able to achieve our goals.

03:57Right now here in France, there's anxiety ahead of the return of Donald Trump.

04:03Are you sensing that anxiety?

04:05Is that something you're putting in your diplomatic cables back to Delhi?

04:11And is it justified, that anxiety?

04:13Well I can't speak for whether it's justified or not as far as France or Europe is concerned.

04:20I do of course have conversations here, some of which, obviously what I write back is not

04:26something I'd discuss on France 24.

04:28But look, I think...

04:31When you write home and tell them what the French view is on all of this, what are you

04:35telling them about this?

04:38The feeling here about the future, when they look at the future of NATO, when they look

04:42at things like what you were discussing earlier, perhaps the end of free trade as we've known

04:46it up to now.

04:47Well, I'd say this, that you know, President Donald Trump or President-elect Donald Trump

04:52has made it quite clear that it's not going to be business as usual as far as the United

04:56States is concerned and the U.S. engagement with the rest of the world is concerned, U.S.

05:00engagement with global institutions, global compacts and international order as we understand

05:06it.

05:07That's certainly going to change.

05:08It is already changing but that may perhaps be a disruptive moment, something that accelerates

05:13that change.

05:14So we'll have to wait and see how all of us, the rest of the world respond to it, how we

05:19calibrate it, how they are going to deal with it.

05:22So it's not a one-off situation or a linear way of looking at it.

05:27As far as India is concerned, of course, we've had a very strong relationship with

05:32the United States during President Trump's first presidency, as we've had with other

05:37presidents from President Clinton, President Bush, President Obama, President Biden.

05:42And what we've seen so far suggests that there will be continuity in that relationship.

05:47There will, of course, be challenges in a complex, large relationship as we have with

05:51the United States.

05:52But I think we too...

05:53Because you remember in 2019, you had in Dallas, I think it was, this Howdy Modi rally

06:00where Narendra Modi and Donald Trump were there together.

06:03Yes.

06:04Will that be possible next time around if Donald Trump doubles down on tariffs for imports?

06:11I think these are all going to be subject of bilateral negotiations.

06:15I think first of all, we have to recognize what is the fundamental premise of the relationship.

06:20It is a great deal of comfort, strategic convergence, an excellent relationship between

06:26Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President-elect Trump.

06:31And so far, we also understand how we can deal with each other.

06:34So there are larger, broader, global, geopolitical, economic issues to deal with.

06:39Within that, as I said, there will be issues relating bilateral issues.

06:44But it's also going to be important for all of us, not just for Europe or for anyone else,

06:48but also for us to see how he deals with other countries, how the new U.S. administration

06:54deals with global issues, global challenges, and global institutions.

06:59And that would obviously include trade, climate change, finance.

07:02It would also include how you deal with all these institutions that we are familiar with,

07:08which have been at the center of global governance, global security, trade and finance, climate

07:13change, et cetera.

07:14So there's a need for those common rules.

07:16And here's the question, then.

07:18At the same time, there's a sort of, I don't know if it is a Trump effect, but certainly

07:23concomitant to what's going on, the change in U.S. politics.

07:26On your watch here in France, you've seen the rise of the French far right.

07:31You've seen how politics, there's much more anti-immigration talk than before.

07:38What's changed here in France in the four years that you've been here?

07:41Well, that's a very interesting question.

07:43Of course, I'm not going to get into classification of political parties into different vocabularies.

07:51But I would say that, yes, I've seen some of the same anxieties being expressed over

07:56here.

07:57Look, we are at a moment in the evolution of our societies where, due to a vast area

08:06of changes that you see, economic, political, social, technological, people are seeing

08:14a great deal of uncertainty, dislocation about the future, and uncertainty, maybe perhaps

08:20even pessimism.

08:22And because of all these changes are affecting people in diverse ways, there's, of course,

08:28accelerated by a war in Europe.

08:30We have seen people search for answers.

08:33There are questions, somehow the present system people feel, the political systems,

08:38the political institutions, political parties are not able to address their concerns, not

08:44able to answer their questions.

08:47And therefore, they're looking for alternative politics, alternative ways of dealing with

08:54their problems.

08:55And it is something which is happening across the world.

08:59And you have to recognize that there are some common links in this.

09:03The common links is the rise of social media.

09:04The common links is the great dislocations that the globalization has produced in some

09:11quarters, benefits in the others.

09:14People who have lost out don't understand what their future holds for them.

09:19So we are witnessing, perhaps, when you're walking through a forest, you don't really

09:24see the trees.

09:25Well, let me ask you this final question, then.

09:27You arrive in Paris.

09:29It's COVID lockdown.

09:32Is that a distant memory, or is that related to everything you've just said, and it's still

09:37very much present in your mind as you get ready to leave?

09:39You know, human beings have a way of putting painful experiences behind them.

09:44And somehow in these four years, it is easy to forget about it when you go around on the

09:48streets and when you see the magnificent Olympics that Paris hosted.

09:53And I would say that at the two bookends of my stay over here.

09:57But I think the consequences of COVID is still present on a daily basis in everyone's life.

10:04The changes it brought about, the disruptions it created, the losses that it generated at

10:11psychological, emotional, and even in material terms, continues to have an impact on lives

10:18of the people, but also, I would say, therefore, on politics, on economic choices, on the way

10:24people look, as the way they are organized socially and politically.

10:29And this has been exacerbated, of course, here in Europe by the war.

10:32But as I said, there are deeper underlying structural shifts that are taking place, geopolitical,

10:38economic, technological, which is in a sense in dissonance with the way we are organized

10:45today to our political thoughts, our economic philosophy, our economic organizations.

10:51And it is all coming to a clash where people are looking, therefore, for different kinds

10:56of answers.

10:57And this is exactly why you see politics in Europe, in the United States, in many other

11:02parts of the world are getting disrupted in different ways.

11:06We are leaving behind what was familiar to us.

11:09We don't know what we are heading into.

11:11And therefore, the unfamiliar future, the uncertain transition is creating all kinds

11:16of social anxieties.

11:17Jawed Ashraf, we wish you best of luck.

11:20Thank you very much.

11:21Thanks so much for being with us here on France 24.

11:22It was a pleasure.

11:23And I'd say this, that it was a bit of really educational and enriching experience to have

11:27lived in France and Europe at this very pivotal moment of time, besides what we've been able

11:33to achieve in our bilateral relations between India and France.

11:36Thank you very much.

11:37Come back soon.

11:38Many thanks.

11:39Stay with us.

11:40There's much more to come here on France 24.

11:41More news plus a day's business and sports.

11:47See you soon.

11:48Bye.

11:49Bye.

11:50Bye.

11:51Bye.

11:52Bye.

11:53Bye.

11:54Bye.

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