- 5/24/2025
Jerry Thornton | Jerry Thornton
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00:00Jefferson Morley, I cannot thank you enough for joining my little rocket ship to the moon here.
00:05You know, anybody who's remotely interested in the JFK assassination, and I suggest that
00:12everybody should be, it's nothing less than the biggest murder mystery in human history and also
00:19changed the course of American life in ways we'll never understand. And anytime I've researched
00:26this, your name comes up on every podcast and every article that's worth reading. So getting
00:32you right now after the congressional hearings, honestly, it's like getting a private audience
00:37with the Pope at Christmas. So thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me, Jerry. Thanks for those
00:42kind words. It's the pleasure's all mine. So if it works for you, what I'd like to do to approach
00:50is to kind of talk about the hearings that were on Tuesday and then kind of work our way backwards.
00:56Like, what did we learn? How does it graft onto the 30 some odd years of research you've done
01:03into this and then where we're at on this? So what were the big revelations from Tuesday?
01:09So what we heard on Tuesday was from five witnesses who had at different times in their
01:17lives over the last 60 years run into the U.S. government's cover up around the assassination
01:25and specifically that they were deceived or coerced or punished, misled by the CIA as a
01:34result of their efforts to just say what they knew about the events leading to the president's
01:41assassination. And so you had Abraham Bolden, a Secret Service agent who was fired, railroaded,
01:47actually spent six years in jail because he tried to call attention to lax security procedures
01:55in Kennedy's detail in 1963. And Dr. Don Curtis was one of the first medical personnel on the scene
02:04when President Kennedy was brought into Parkland Hospital. And he described the scene where they
02:10attempted to save President Kennedy's life. But also he told the story of how when he was
02:16interviewed by the Warren Commission, he was terrorized. That was the word he used,
02:20terrorized by Arlen Specter into changing his testimony. And, you know, that was really
02:27remarkable. Why? And he said, because Arlen Specter just wanted a predetermined conclusion,
02:34you know. So Dan Hardwaite, who was with the House Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978,
02:41told about being deceived by a CIA officer, George Joannides, who it turns out had a big
02:47role in the events of 1963. So this was very compelling firsthand testimony about, you know,
02:56what it's like to try and state the truth and, you know, try and find out more. So that was really
03:02remarkable to hear all in one place. And especially on Capitol Hill, you know,
03:07Abraham Bolden, the injustice that was done to him was finally recognized when President Biden
03:12pardoned him a couple of years ago. But this man at 90 years old, he wanted to testify in Congress
03:18because, you know, he wanted, this was a chance to really clear his name, you know. And on behalf
03:25of a president he had served, Abraham Bolden was the first African American Secret Service agent
03:31who had been appointed into the presidential detail by Kennedy himself. So Bolden felt a
03:39personal obligation to JFK himself to tell this story. And so that was really remarkable.
03:46So what does that tell us? Well, one of the points that Dan Hardwaite made was,
03:51you know, what's going on today is just a continuation of that. And Representative
03:58Luna in the course of the hearing said a couple of times that she has made a request to the CIA
04:04for additional documents that are known to exist. This is not a fishing expedition.
04:09Specific documents known to exist, known to be in the possession of the CIA that are related
04:15in some way to the assassination of President Kennedy. And the CIA told her last week they
04:20would not give her the documents in time for her hearing yesterday. This is, we're going on four
04:26months after President Trump's order for the immediate release of all JFK files. Four months
04:31later, CIA is still stalling. And, you know, that's highly significant. Because what this is,
04:39Jerry, is we're getting down to the very end. You know, people think, oh, they're, you know,
04:45we're always going to debate the Kennedy assassination, this, that, and the other thing.
04:49You know, yeah, I'm sure that's true. But we are, we are now for the first time arriving at
04:56having a reasonably complete version of the historical record of the assassination that
05:02was in the possession of the government. Now, have important records in that body of records
05:08been destroyed? Absolutely. We know that multiple times from multiple agencies. But that doesn't
05:14mean that we don't know what happened to President Kennedy, we have a big picture. And we,
05:19thanks to the recent order by President Trump, we have, we have kind of finished the record,
05:25the last remaining material and a few thousand documents was finally released way over schedule
05:31should have happened eight years ago by law. But it has happened now. And so what we see at the
05:37end of the process is this, what does the CIA want to hide the most? And so we're down to a
05:45handful of records. And the reason that they don't want to release these records, the reason they're
05:50kind of slow walking Trump's order, they're not saying, we're not going to do it, they're just
05:54saying, we'll do it at some point in the some vague point in the future, you know, when the
06:00pressure will be off or whatever, you know, they're just kicking the can down the road.
06:06Because we're now at the point where these records, if they were disclosed, they would be
06:12devastating to the to the CIA. I mean, devastatingly embarrassing to the CIA. And the
06:21story that that's right there, the story that they don't want to give up is that there were actually
06:28CIA officers running an operation involving Lee Harvey Oswald, before the president was killed.
06:35So the story that, you know, he came out of nowhere, no, they, this guy didn't come out of
06:40nowhere, he was, there were CIA officers who were very, very familiar with his actions. And that's
06:47the story they don't want to tell, because they just didn't disclose it to any of the many
06:52investigations. Now, was this operation that is found in these files? Is that a plot to kill the
06:59president? No, it's not. It's a, it's a CIA psychological warfare or counterintelligence
07:05operation. It's not a plot to kill the president. But it's an operation that has never been
07:11disclosed before. So this is why this is the thing that they can't release. They can't. So they can't
07:18defy Trump, they can't say, No, we're not going to release it. But they don't want to release it
07:22because it's so damaging. Okay, so this file, the file of George Joanides, this is really like the
07:29the test of, you know, the government's veracity and the, and the test of the, the legal requirement
07:38of full disclosure, right? One thing everybody can agree on this subject is everything in the
07:43government's possession on this subject should be made public. That's just common sense. So,
07:50you know, is the CIA going to give up these records? You know, I mean, if the CIA is under
07:56control of the government, it will give up these records. If the CIA is not under control of the
08:01government, it won't. So that's the that's the sort of the nub of the matter. And I think this
08:08is going to come to a head in the next couple weeks. This is not people at the highest levels
08:13are aware of, you know, this problem, or whatever it is. So, you know, there's going to have to be
08:19some hard decisions to be made to, you know, force the release of this material. You know,
08:26it's worrisome that it hasn't been released yet. On the other hand, when I talked to
08:30Representative Luna, she's like, you know, I believe they're going to produce it, you know.
08:35So she's giving the system time to work, which is appropriate. But, you know, I don't think
08:41our patience should be infinite. You know, they need to produce these records now.
08:46Well, you know, there's two very big topics that you brought up. And just to take them
08:49into chunks. First is, is the cover up, which by the testimony of the five people who were
08:56there yesterday, it's something we've all suspected all along that the cover up did exist.
09:03The fact that in slow walking is the term they used yesterday, and you used it as well.
09:08By slow walking it, does that just mean that the cover up is continuing that the CIA just
09:14is by no standard actually cooperating the way everyone in America wants them to?
09:21You know, I mean, they're an opaque institution, and I can't speak for their motivations, you know,
09:26they're not being forthcoming, right? They know this is assassination related material.
09:32They know the president wants it. Now, they've told Luna, it's going through declassification,
09:37and we'll provide most of it to you. Most of it, not all of it. So they're still leaving
09:42themselves some wiggle room. So, you know, whatever their motivation is, it's in defiance
09:49of the law and common sense and public opinion. So that's why I'm trying to call attention to it.
09:54That's why I'm trying to call attention to it. It's like, this should be a no brainer. And,
09:58you know, hopefully, CIA Director Ratcliffe can compel his agency to produce stuff that the age,
10:05you know, the agency might find embarrassing today, you know, so what, you know, an embarrassed CIA,
10:11that's not a that's not a problem. If they've if they've engaged in misconduct,
10:16they should be embarrassed, they should, you know, there should be accountability.
10:19But in any case, you know, that's what the law requires. So that's where, you know, you ask about
10:28the cover up, that's, I think that's where we stand.
10:31So that it, it continues, more or less. Yeah, I mean, what it's always been is that
10:37we would rather have everybody just assume that we're sketchy, and we were involved in
10:43assassination of the president, then come clean and remove all doubt.
10:49Yeah, I mean, that's what, you know, that's what it seems like. And, you know, there's a continuity
10:54in what we saw today, right? We heard from men who were around in 1963. Dr. Curtis, you know,
11:01in the hospital, a bold and secret service in the White House. And then we heard from Dan Hardway.
11:07Well, you know, Dan Hardway talked about his deal face to face with Joe Anides and how
11:15the CIA man deceived him. Well, now, you know, 40 years after that investigation,
11:21we're asking for the file of that officer, Joe Anides, and they're not providing it. So, you
11:26know, so the same behavior seems to be replicating itself on the exact same topic, you know,
11:32the CIA dealings around Oswald. So there's a movie trope where the good guy comes up over the hill,
11:39and looks at the impenetrable fortress, you know, the bond villain layer, or, you know,
11:45Mordor or whatever. And the CIA is perfectly okay. On this issue, anyway, with having that be it,
11:54like we're in a penetrable fortress, you're not getting in here unless we damn well want you to,
11:59in spite of a new administration, the old administration, and now Rep Lewin, as you
12:04mentioned, like, insisting, like, they have a legal obligation to give this stuff. But she can't
12:10go in there and break into office. You know, I think, you know, Luna's shown a lot of leadership
12:16on this, especially for somebody who's only been in Congress for two terms. And she's been, you
12:21know, very good to work with on this issue. But, you know, people at the higher levels of government
12:28need to get involved. And, you know, Trump needs to understand that they're slow walking his order,
12:33like, you know, basically, they're not complying with his order, deliberately. That's intentional
12:39now. And, you know, these records are probably in a CIA warehouse, they've probably even been
12:53digitized by this point. Not hard to retrieve them. So it's just time to make them available.
13:00Yeah, the next to the Ark of the Covenant in that with all those wooden boxes and the
13:05warehouse. So the other part you mentioned about the operation that they have nice,
13:10if I'm correct, this is the this George Giannidis. And it involves Oswald and Mexico City. Is this
13:21the operation that you're talking about? So please explain.
13:24Yeah, so this complicated story, but let me unpack a little bit for you. Because,
13:29because we I in the hearing, I Luna talked about another Dan Hardway talked about the
13:35Giannidis file. So what are we talking about? George Giannidis, this is a story that has come
13:40out of the new JFK files in the last 20 years, completely unknown to the Warren Commission or
13:47the House Select Committee on assassinations. So never investigated. Okay, it only it only
13:53came out in the late 90s. George Giannidis was the chief of covert action operations
14:01at the CIA station in Miami. The CIA state in Miami in 1963 was the largest CIA station in the
14:10world because they were waging a secret war on Fidel Castro's communist government in Cuba,
14:18in nearby Cuba. So the CIA had this enormous operation aimed at overthrowing Castro's
14:23government, mainly by spreading money around the Cuban exiles in South Florida who wanted to go
14:28back and retake their country from the communists. So the CIA in the early 1960s was spending huge
14:35amounts of money to do this. And they had this big operation. And in that operation, George
14:41Giannidis was a rising middle level officer, I would say, and he was in charge of the covert
14:48action branch. One of his assignments as a case officer was to handle a group of Cuban students
14:56called the Cuban Student Directorate, which was students who were opposed to Castro's government.
15:01And they were a large, effective organization. There was a lot of young people passionately
15:05opposed to Castro. And so the CIA funded them to support their efforts. That group was called the
15:14Cuban Student Directorate, which Giannidis was in charge of in the summer of 1963.
15:20In that summer, in August 1963, at that time, members of the Cuban Student Directorate
15:27in New Orleans had a series of confrontations with a totally unknown character named Lee Harvey
15:34Oswald. Oswald presented himself as a supporter of Castro, which was quite unusual in a conservative
15:40southern city like New Orleans. And he immediately attracted the attention of these
15:46human students who were supported by the CIA. And so over the course of several weeks,
15:54there was a series of confrontations where Oswald handed out pamphlets on the street,
16:01and the Cuban students got into a fight with him. How dare he hand out pamphlets?
16:06They challenged him to a debate on the radio. And they had a debate. And they wrote a press
16:12release about him. And when they got into a fight with him, they went to court. And there was a
16:19courtroom appearance that was covered by the local court. So there's a flurry of press coverage
16:23that's generated by the confrontation between the Cuban Student Directorate and this guy named
16:30Oswald. Well, what we only learned in the last 20 years was that that group was run by the CIA and
16:37was run by this man named George Joannidis. And that he was a high place spy. He was a branch
16:45chief in the CIA station in Miami. And he's not a rogue actor in any way, shape, or form.
16:51We know a lot about him. And he was a very diligent officer who was responding to the
16:56orders of his superiors in Washington at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. So
17:04this group generates a lot of propaganda about Oswald. When the president is killed,
17:09and Oswald is arrested on November 22, 1963, this CIA funded group goes to the press
17:16and says, we know all about the guy who killed the president. He's a supporter of Castro.
17:21And so the next day, there's headlines all over the country, Kennedy killed by pro Castro gunman.
17:28That story originated with a CIA propaganda group run by George Joannidis. So that was one new part
17:36of the story that was interesting and striking that we learned. But there's a second part of it
17:41that makes it even more interesting, which is 15 years later, late 1970s, 15 years after the
17:49assassination, Congress reopens the investigation. A lot has been learned about the CIA and assassination
17:55plots. A lot's been learned about the CIA and Watergate, whole different attitude towards the
18:01CIA from 15 years earlier. And so they reinvestigate. And so they, the Congress creates what
18:06was called the House Select Committee on assassinations. And they hire a staff and they go
18:11to investigate. And so they start sending their investigators to the CIA, we want to interview
18:18these people about the events of 1963. We want to find these documents and all that. The CIA calls
18:25this man George Joannidis out of retirement, the guy who had been handling the Cuban students who
18:30knew Oswald in 1963. And they bring him back, and he serves as the intermediary between the CIA
18:38and the investigators. Well, one of the questions they ask him is, so who was working with these
18:44Cuban students back in 1963? Because we know they got CIA support, who was the officer who was
18:50handling them? George Joannidis, he himself was the answer to the question. You know, and so he
18:58lies to them. And he says, I don't know, I'll get back to you. And he never tells. So and so as Dan
19:06Hardaway related yesterday, he told the story of having the meeting with Joannidis face to face
19:11where he fooled him. And he said, you know, he obstructed our investigation. And so it was pretty
19:17much, you know, irrefutable truth of the, you know, the centrality of this man in the cover up.
19:23And now, that was 1978. We're still waiting for a personnel file that documents what he, you know,
19:31it's not, that doesn't document everything he was doing. But it has a lot of information about
19:37the intelligence methods and the cover, and the activities that he was doing in this period.
19:43Okay, now, we don't know what's in that file. And you know, I'm not saying it's like,
19:47it's not, you know, a plot to kill the president. But it's a very tightly held CIA operation
19:54involving Lee Harvey Oswald. That's what they're saying. That's what they can't release. And so
19:59this is the test of the Trump's order of Trump's order is, you know, can he force them to release
20:06it? Or, you know, and, you know, I, I don't know the answer to the question, you know, it's, but
20:15we have reached this kind of culminating moment in the story of the JFK files disclosure. You
20:20know, is there more JFK files to come? As far as we know, no, I mean, there's this small body that
20:28like Luna is asking for. And there's a few other records, but we really are at the very end of the
20:34known universe of JFK records in the government's possession. And so what they're holding back
20:41is what they want to hide the most, almost by definition, right? It's the thing that's
20:45going to surrender last. So this is where it's crunch time. It's the end game on JFK files,
20:52because this file, if it's made public, it will have a big impact on how people think about the
20:59CIA and the JFK assassination. I'll just put it that way. Well, this is this kind of information
21:05is a thing that makes your hair hurt because it's 2025 and we can't get full disclosure on a guy
21:12who under CIA orders working for them was, you know, committing these, these acts or, you know,
21:19setting up these groups, whatever, and then lied to Congress and is long since dead and buried,
21:26but we can't know the truth. And I want to talk a little bit about that. How he had
21:33Oswald down in New Orleans working for him. I heard a very excellent podcast,
21:39Soledad O'Brien and Rob Reiner, Princess Bride of Wolf of Wall Street, you know,
21:45played DiCaprio's dad and Wolf of Wall Street that they had a term for it. I believe it was
21:50honey dipping. She's just like sheep dipping. Thank you. A little more honey dipping is a
21:57little more pleasant. But it's a term for you take a guy who you're going to have do some work for
22:05him for you and you create this persona around him. That's the opposite of what he really is.
22:12In this case, Oswald was pro Castro. So now, you know, he can then, I don't know, spy infiltrate.
22:22I don't know what the when he kills Kennedy. Now it's oh, OK, look at look who Kennedy was killed
22:28by this guy that we know was, you know, working on behalf of Castro, the fair play for Cuba
22:35committee. Right. Which he was the only member, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. So and and one of the
22:41things that's come out in the new files, you know, the kind of fine, granular detail that
22:47doesn't get a lot of attention but really tells you a lot is, you know, this is what they were.
22:53They had the CIA had targeted this pro Castro group, the fair play for Cuba committee, which
22:59was actually quite popular on college campuses in the early 1960s. And that's why the CIA and the
23:06FBI were worried about it was because it was having a big impact on on public opinion on Cuba.
23:12So they set out to destroy it. Well, one of the things that we've learned is, you know,
23:16at this very same time that Joe and these agents are exposing Oswald in New Orleans,
23:22the CIA is trying to penetrate the fair play for Cuba committee. So it's like their their attention
23:31is going right in on this organization, fair play for Cuba committee. And this guy, this totally
23:37unknown ex-marine named Lee Harvey Oswald, is coming to the attention of people at the highest
23:44levels of the CIA. And that story of their interest is still off limits to the American
23:50people. It's remarkable. And little details about that, too, before we move on. One, that when he
23:59ran afoul of that anti Castro group that you mentioned, that that got news coverage, like
24:05there were reporters there with taking photos. It ended up in the paper. Look, why? Here's just this
24:13kook in this like half a dozen guys who would, you know, John at each other on a street corner.
24:19How did that become newsworthy? How did the local papers know this unless it was all part
24:24of the setup? And then the other part of this is after JFK is killed and the police are doing a
24:30press conference and they they misname the Castro group that Oswald belongs to. And a voice comes
24:38from the back of the room, goes, no, it's the fair play for Cuba committee. And that voice
24:44belonged to Jack Ruby. And this has all been happening in front of everyone's eyes.
24:50And you still have people who buy the theory. Oh, he was just a kook who worked at the book
24:54warehouse. No. And that story about Ruby, which is true, which one of the police officers,
25:02spokesman misnamed that. And he says, no, it's fair play. So think about that.
25:09Jack Ruby. I mean, he's a pimp. He's a brawler. He owns a strip club. He loves organized crime dudes.
25:14You know, like, how does he know about this popular leftist group on campus? You know,
25:20like, it's not something Jack Ruby would pay attention to, but he knew it. So he knew about
25:27Oswald in kind of granular detail within 24 hours of the crime. Now, yes, there were already
25:34news reports by that point. But how did he know that points to specifically to correct it? That
25:41shows some knowledge, you know. Yeah. So a couple of figures that you mentioned,
25:49so we know about Joe Enitis. You mentioned Arlen Specter, who, you know, people would
25:55probably know that he was the the author of The Magic Bullet Theory and then goes from just this
26:02member of the Warren Commission to a long term senator from Pennsylvania. And right now is a
26:10senator from from hell, if you ask me. Is there a connection there like to.
26:17Well, I mean, it was it was obvious to anybody on the Warren Commission
26:23that Arlen Specter was extremely ambitious. And that was even before he was. That's why he wanted
26:30to be on the Warren Commission. So, you know, I did his, you know, creating a narrative that the
26:41Warren Commission could settle on the so-called magic bullet, the single bullet theory,
26:47which kind of held together the very rickety forensic conclusions of the Warren Commission
26:54and is not, you know, it's not credible. It's not what happened. We can be sure of that based on
27:00the totality of the evidence that we have now and that it was constructed.
27:05The Specter's theory was constructed to rationalize a conclusion that had already been
27:10reached. Did that ensure his future political success? You know, it didn't harm it. He showed
27:17his reliability for, you know, establishment intelligence community. Which I think brings
27:25us beautifully to how I'd like to conclude this with a discussion for as long as you can with how
27:33you know what your theory of the case is. And by way of background, when I spoke with Rep Luna,
27:40I quoted the first day that she announced this committee, she said more than one gun was fired
27:47at Daly Plaza at JFK. And I asked her, and I'll ask you, do we know how many and were
27:55any of those triggers pulled by a guy named Lee Harvey Oswald or not?
28:04I mean, the president was hit by gunfire from two different directions.
28:07That's pretty clear. Dr. Curtis testified yesterday about seeing a blowout wound in
28:11the back of the president's head caused by a gunshot from the front. So the evidence of
28:18that the president was hit by gunfire from two different directions, very strong.
28:24Dr. Robert McClellan, one of the doctors who tried to save Kennedy's life has an excellent
28:31interview on YouTube, Allen Public Library in Texas, if people want to look it up.
28:37And they could also find it on my website, jfkfacts.substack.com. So my theory of the
28:44case is since the evidence of gunfire from two different directions is very strong,
28:50you know, the idea of a lone gunman is not valid. Was Lee Harvey Oswald firing a gun? I mean,
28:56if people insist that he was up on the sixth floor window firing a gun, you know, where he was
29:02exactly to be totally determined is, I don't think he was there. I don't think the evidence
29:08supports that he was up there in that window at that time. But it's, it's not absolutely clear
29:14where he was at the moment the gunfire erupted. But since there's more than one gunman, that's,
29:19you know, that's a little bit of a moot point. To me, you know, what the people around Kennedy
29:26thought, like Lyndon Johnson and Robert Kennedy and Jackie Kennedy, they thought the president
29:31had been killed by his enemies within his own government. And, and that's, you know, I think
29:35that's a very defensible story now who they were. It's a very well designed crime. It's a very well
29:43clever ambush. And Oswald, I think Oswald is what he said he was a patsy, you know, the fall guy for
29:50other people who committed the crime, who they were high ranking people, certainly in the US
29:56intelligence and national security community, you know, but who specifically organized it,
30:01how many people knew about it. You know, I learned a lot from this case from a former CIA officer.
30:08And he said, and this guy was very senior, and recently, top positions in the, in the CIA. And
30:18he said that some of our best operations, most significant, most important, most productive
30:25operations were only known to three or four or five people. And outside of that, literally nobody
30:32knew how it worked. And he said, talking about the Kennedy assassination, he was not talking about any
30:38personal knowledge that he learned while inside the agency, because he said he had none. But as
30:43an intelligence officer looking at what happened, he sees a covert operation, you know, which is
30:50designed to be plausibly deniable. And so, so for a long time, you know, the government can
30:56plausibly deny any involvement in the crime, because that's how it was designed. But after
31:0160 years, those denials are not very plausible anymore. So all the government has is implausible
31:06deniability. And we can see kind of the outlines of what happened, the President was ambushed by
31:11his enemies, and there was this effort to blame the crime on Cuba, create pressure for an invasion,
31:17something like that seems to be what happened. And, and then Oswald is captured alive, he has to
31:25be eliminated, because Oswald on trial is very dangerous to the CIA, because of all the places
31:30he's been and how closely they've been watching it. Oswald is eliminated, and the government goes
31:35to the easiest solution. So we don't have a civil war. So people don't think this is a coup.
31:41We're just going to say this crazy guy did it. And that crazy guy killed that crazy guy. And
31:45let's move along, folks. And so that was kind of, you know, the politically convenient cover story
31:51in November 1963. And, you know, people could justify it in a way in their own minds. Well,
31:59you know, if we, if Castro was behind this, and we have to go to war with him, then we'll have a
32:04nuclear war, you know, the Russians, so let's just not go there so that we don't, you know, go to war,
32:10you know, like, that was a very common feeling, when we just have to put this behind us right
32:15away. We don't want to know, we can't know. Let's just forget about it. And so, but this effort to
32:24bury it was not successful. This, the story the government put forward of a lone gunman started
32:29to fall apart right away. Like I say, Jackie Kennedy, Robert Kennedy never believed it.
32:34Lyndon Johnson, the man who appointed the Warren Commission said, at least three times,
32:40to people that are known, that he didn't think that the Warren Commission was right, and that
32:45Kennedy had been killed by his enemies, possibly in the CIA. Lyndon Johnson himself said that. So
32:51that's not a crazy idea. That's like, people close to the situation. That's what they thought,
32:57you know. Yeah, Nixon said the same thing. They got him on tape. Oh, they got Jack.
33:01Oh, they could get me. And, you know, listen, I am a reformed lone gunman theorist. I happily
33:11bought what I was sold back in the 90s. There was some books, it was a frontline documentary,
33:16whatever. And I revisited it. And yeah, now, just what you said about when you add a second gunman,
33:24which we know by any measurement, any, you know, objective search of the facts,
33:31there was a second gunman. When you've got more than one, that is by definition, a conspiracy.
33:37And conspiracy theory, that term was came out of this era, right? That's what they did.
33:45In 1967, CIA Director Richard Helms sent a memo to all CIA stations in the world about this was
33:53the time when people were saying this Warren Commission, you know, it was like, all over the
33:59press, the mainstream press, Life and Look magazine, some of the most popular publications
34:04in the country at the time, were saying, we need to reopen this, the Warren Commission is not
34:08credible. And so Dick Helms sends out this memo, it's a very long memo, about 10 pages. How do we
34:14counter criticism of the Warren Commission? And in there, they developed this idea, well, you know,
34:20these people, they're conspiracy theorists, and this is how you talk about them, you just say,
34:25nobody would believe them, because they're conspiracy theorists, or they're, or they're
34:29anti American, that was another one, or they're under the influence of communists, was another
34:35one, or they're crazy. And so they developed these media strategies for how, you know, how the CIA
34:42should talk to its media assets. One thing that's interesting about this memo is right, at that
34:48point, nobody was accusing the CIA of anything, you know, at that point, you know, there was a
34:56lot of criticism of the Warren Commission, but there weren't people saying, oh, the CIA did it,
35:00there was a little bit of that in the European press, but that wasn't a common theme in America
35:05at all. More of the, you know, suspicion was around organized crime, or FBI, or segregationists.
35:14And so that's what, you know, that's what happened.
35:21Oh, listen, we could go on forever about this, you know, even the autopsy, we could do two hours
35:27on that, but we're going to not subject you or our viewers and listeners to that.
35:32Well, I mean, if people want to, if people want to know more about this, they can follow the story
35:37at my website, jfkfacts.substack.com. You can subscribe for free and get most of the content,
35:44and then kind of we save our best reporting behind a firewall, but very cheap, five bucks a month.
35:51And, you know, we'll, we are keeping up with the story, and we are, you know, we feel we're driving
35:56the story to its conclusion. We're getting all the evidence in one place, we're not spending a lot of
36:02time debating conspiracy theories, trying to put it all in one place, figure out what does this
36:07mean? What does this tell us? And why can't we get the whole story? And it's important, you know,
36:13it's important for today for a lot of reasons. I think, you know, the main thing is, can we really
36:19hold the government accountable? You know, of course, the CIA doesn't want to be embarrassed,
36:23but this is bigger than them, you know, I guess that's the point I would make.
36:28So we're making a lot of progress. And we're learning a lot. And, you know, it's really
36:35interesting and important. So I think people should pay attention. And thank you, Jerry,
36:38for having me. So we can talk about this in the, you know, kind of detail it deserves.
36:43I appreciate it. We could go on. But I will say thank you for for plugging your, your,
36:48your substack. And we can find you on what socials?
36:52On Twitter at Jefferson Morley, Twitter X, and on YouTube.
37:00Great.
37:00It's Jefferson Morley on YouTube.
37:03So please keep up the good work and with the work you're doing with Rep. Luna as well. It's the
37:09first time we've gotten to do this. I hope it won't be the last because I think there'll be
37:12more revelations coming forward. So thanks very much for joining us. And we will talk to you soon.
37:21Bye.
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