Trump's Gaza reconstruction plan completely 'unworkable, illegal and dangerous for region'

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00:00Our top story. Today a group of negotiators from Hamas have arrived in Cairo for truce

00:17talks even as the ceasefire with Israel appears increasingly precarious. The Palestinian group

00:23said its visit is aimed at ending what it called the current crisis. Yesterday the Israeli

00:29Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu echoed a warning from the US President Donald Trump

00:34saying the war in Gaza would resume if Hamas did not release Israeli hostages by this Saturday.

00:41The Israeli military has also begun calling up reservists in preparation for a possible

00:47return of the fighting. Well let's start by listening to Netanyahu himself speaking last

00:53night. If Hamas does not return our hostages by Saturday at noon, the ceasefire will end

01:00and the Israeli defence forces will return to intense fighting until Hamas is finally

01:05defeated. Well no surprise then that there is a significant fear in Gaza at the prospect

01:12of a resumption of Israeli airstrikes. Fifteen months of war there have killed over 40,000

01:19civilians and some 90% of the population has been displaced. Here's the view from Rafa

01:24earlier on today. From the moment we heard this news our hearts sank. The whole country

01:31was shaken. We'd barely started believing that a truce would happen and that a solution

01:36was on the way, God willing. We're calling on Hamas and we're calling on Israel. We asked

01:41them to reach an agreement and put an end to this situation. The people are suffering.

01:45The people are the victims. Israel must release the prisoners and abide by the agreements

01:51and Hamas must also adhere to the agreements for the sake of the people. The people are

01:55completely exhausted. There is no country in the world that is protecting us. Well there

02:01is concern too in Israel about the possible resumption of the war, particularly among

02:06the families of hostages who remain in Gaza. It's a shock. We're trying to analyse it,

02:14we're trying to think what are the possibilities. We want to believe that both sides and the

02:22mediators can sit down and solve this issue. I hope the ultimatum we heard from Trump will

02:32speed the negotiation and make all stages come quickly. We saw what's going on, hostages

02:42just come back, but what we saw on Saturday says that we can't wait so long for all of

02:51them. Donald Trump has not only demanded the hostages be released by this weekend, he's

02:57also called on Jordan and Egypt to take in Palestinians on a large scale so the United

03:03States can quote, take over Gaza and begin a giant redevelopment of the enclave. Human

03:09rights groups say such forced displacement from Gaza would amount to ethnic cleansing

03:15and both Amman and Cairo have strongly opposed the idea. Well to discuss the challenges then

03:22for Jordan and for Egypt and how they may now try to work with a Donald Trump White

03:28House, I'm pleased to welcome to the programme Neil Quilliam. He's a Senior Middle East Research

03:34Fellow at Chatham House. Hello to you and thanks for joining us. You're welcome, thank

03:39you for having me. Look, I'd like to talk about Jordan first of all. King Abdullah met

03:44with Trump yesterday at the White House. Now, Abdullah did not publicly discuss Trump's

03:50resettlement plan, but he did say he would take in a number of Palestinian children who

03:55need medical treatment. Let's just hear first of all a little of the exchange between the

04:00two leaders. I think one of the things that we can do right away is take 2,000 children

04:09that are either cancer children or in a very ill state to Jordan as quickly as possible

04:15and then wait for, I think, the Egyptians to present their plan on how we can work with

04:19the President to work on the Gaza challenges. I want to tell you, excuse me, just please.

04:29I didn't know that, what you just said, 2,000 children with cancer or other problems. And

04:35that's really a beautiful gesture. And Mr Quilliam, how do you think King Abdullah handled

04:42those remarks to the press alongside Donald Trump? I mean, I think he dealt with them

04:47very adeptly, very diplomatically. I mean, you can see from his language, from his body

04:54language as well, that he's been put in a very uncomfortable position. So he was stretching,

05:00he was doing his utmost to charm the President and also offer a very small piecemeal kind

05:09of solution. And that's taking on 2,000 children suffering from cancer or other illnesses.

05:16I mean, that's probably as far as he can go. So he reached out, he's offered the utmost,

05:22but he was placed in a really difficult position. Well, you say that's probably as far as King

05:27Abdullah is able to go. Just spell out for us why that is. I mean, he can't take Palestinians

05:35from Gaza. I mean, one, he would be complicit in population transfer, he'll be playing a

05:43role in part of that. Two, I mean, how does that actually happen? I mean, there are the

05:49physical and logistical dimensions behind that. And three, demographically, I mean, what is he

05:54going to take 1 million from Gaza or 500,000 Palestinians? I mean, we know that it's illegal.

06:01We know there's a tantamount to ethnic cleansing. So he can't be complicit in that. And

06:06certainly, his own country, I mean, has already 1.4 million Palestinian refugees, has

06:12something in the region of 1.2 million Syrian refugees and hosts of other refugees. So it

06:18would place a tremendous burden on the country. But also, he knows that if they came, they

06:25wouldn't be going back. They're not coming as refugees as such. They would remain there

06:31and have a permanent presence. Neither Egypt nor Jordan is in a position to take that many

06:38Palestinians and certainly wouldn't want to.

06:42I suppose one of the big challenges, though, for Jordan is the amount of money it does get from

06:46the United States, money that Trump has suggested the United States could simply cut. I

06:51mean, in 2023, Jordan was the fourth highest recipient of American aid. Do you think that

06:59money could be cut? And what impact would there be if so?

07:04I mean, it's difficult to know whether it would be could be cut. I mean, Trump also said

07:09yesterday that they can rise above cutting that aid. And that aid is released

07:16in five-year cycles. So they're mid-cycle at the moment. But that doesn't mean that Trump

07:21couldn't put it on, I guess, on a kind of a permanent hold or a strong pause. I mean, that

07:29$1.4 billion a year cut would be tremendously difficult for Jordan. I mean, they are largely

07:37dependent on external support and external aid. So it would really compromise the Jordanian

07:45economy and the security. So it would put the country at considerable risk. But Jordan's

07:54stability, I think, not to overplay it, but Jordan's stability would be at risk. But that in

08:01itself is a security risk for Israel. So it doesn't make sense to cut that aid, even if it's

08:10concerned for the security of Israel or the security of the region. But we can see from

08:17Trump, his policies don't always make absolute sense. But the question is, does he really have

08:24the will to push ahead with this? Or is there enough kind of heft in the system to mitigate

08:30and to push against it and to advise otherwise?

08:33Well, let's turn our attention then to Egypt, because there are reports today,

08:39unconfirmed reports, I should say, but there is reporting that the Egyptian leader, Sisi,

08:46won't actually meet Trump at all if Trump keeps this demand on the table that Egypt, like Jordan,

08:52take in hundreds of thousands, if not over a million Palestinians. What do you think

08:58Egypt's strategy now is? Because like Jordan, it's very dependent on financial support

09:03from the United States.

09:05I think the ball almost sits in Egypt's court. And words are coming out of Egypt that they do

09:14want to work towards a reconstruction plan. And you heard King Abdullah yesterday say that the

09:22Egyptians, the Jordanians, are going to be meeting with Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of

09:26Saudi Arabia, soon to sort of hammer out an alternative. And I think that that is the only

09:32option. And in a way, you know, one hopes in a benevolent sense that Trump's rhetoric, that his

09:39very strong position is intended to sort of throw down the gauntlet and get the Arab states to come

09:45together and come up with a plan that has a political and economic and a reconstruction

09:50dimension to it. I think that's the only thing they can really do to sort of push back or at

09:57least persuade Trump that his plan is just completely unworkable. It's dangerous for the

10:02region. And, you know, it's completely illegal, too. I suppose the question is for Donald Trump,

10:07does he care, actually, whether a plan is illegal? And does he care if he puts more people

10:13in the Middle East in danger? The answer to that might be no. But then how do you operationalise

10:20that? I mean, what does it actually mean to move 2 million people? I mean, who's going to do the

10:25moving? How is that going to happen? I mean, that in itself, is the US going to put boots on the

10:31ground to make that happen? Or are they just going to sort of say to Israel, do whatever you want,

10:35but I can't see how that can possibly happen, whether he likes it or not, or whether he wishes

10:42it or not. How do you actually operationalise such an ill-thought-out plan? That's going to be

10:50like a fly in the ointment for him, or at least something that's going to make this idea hopefully

10:55just disappear. And look, if we zoom out a little bit here, what role do you think other big Middle

11:03East powers, other allies of the United States, like Saudi Arabia, may play in the weeks ahead,

11:09as we try to think about how these Arab countries navigate this relationship with Donald Trump?

11:15I mean, I think it's about the Arab states coming together, working together. You know,

11:20there is a clear common cause. And I think you can see the leaders cooperating and coordinating

11:27on this piece. And I think that is going to be what they're going to have to do. And this is

11:31why and how they're going to have to come up with an alternative plan. But at the moment,

11:36what you have are Arab leaders coming together and really pulling together, and clearly Arab

11:40populations behind that. So in a way, there are divisions, but there is a kind of a clear sense

11:49of unity on this one issue that pulls everybody together. It's really kind of galvanising leaders

11:56and obviously highly sensitising the region. Neil Quilliam, good to talk to you. Thanks very much

12:03indeed. Now staying with this story, halfway around the world in Bangkok, five Thai farmers

12:14who were freed last week in the latest swap between Israel and Hamas are adjusting to their

12:22new lives back home in Thailand. Now among them is Wachara Sioun. France24's Oliver Farry has his story.

12:32Days after returning home, Wachara Sioun joins his community in prayer in northern Thailand.

12:39He spent almost 500 days in captivity in Gaza after being abducted on October 7, 2023

12:46from the kibbutz in southern Israel, where he worked tending avocados and potatoes.

12:50Wachara says he was aware of the risks before heading to Israel, but felt he had little choice

12:56but to go. When I first went, it was exciting, but there was also fear because I knew the country was

13:03at war. Still, I had to go. I wanted my family to have a better life, and I wanted my daughter to

13:08get an education. On the morning of October 7, he awoke to text alerts on his phone. When he left

13:16his room, he was surrounded by Hamas gunmen. While in captivity, he survived on cheese, tomatoes and

13:22cucumbers, though supplies of food and water were not always available. Finally, in late January,

13:28he and two fellow Thai captives got the good news they'd be free. They told us there would be a

13:34ceasefire. That time, I believed it. I even saw them firing guns in the air in celebration.

13:44Now he wants to make up for lost time and spend it with his family, whom he hadn't seen in nearly

13:50five years. I want to help my father and take my daughter to visit different places because I

13:58haven't been with her for so long. My parents are getting older and can't do much anymore.

14:04I want to be the one to take care of them, to make their lives easier because they've

14:09struggled for so long. A total of 41 Thai labourers were killed in the October 7 attacks

14:17and 30 kidnapped. Thailand's foreign ministry believes one Thai national is still in captivity

14:23in Gaza.

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