'Evidence couldn't be clearer': Hamas, allies committed 'hundreds' of war crimes in attack on Israel

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00:00Thank you very much for being with us.

00:06Hamas led other Palestinian armed groups in committing hundreds of war crimes in the October

00:117th cross-border attack on southern Israel that set off the current war in Gaza.

00:17A Human Rights Watch report released this Wednesday cites Hamas on these war crimes.

00:21Here at France 24, Catherine Kedder-Clifford with this.

00:26On the 7th of October 2023, Palestinian armed groups crossed the border from Gaza into Israel,

00:33carrying out the worst attack on Israeli civilians in history.

00:37Nine months later, the NGO Human Rights Watch has published a report on the incursion.

00:42It found that hundreds of war crimes were committed that day.

00:46Based on an in-depth investigation, it focuses on violations of international humanitarian

00:51law, giving a grim inventory of the crimes committed by Palestinian armed groups that

00:56day, including deliberate and indiscriminate attacks against civilians and civilian objects,

01:02willful killing of persons in custody, cruel and other inhumane treatment, sexual and gender-based

01:08violence, hostage-taking, mutilation and despoiling or robbing of bodies, the use of human shields

01:15and pillage and looting.

01:17Human Rights Watch also lists crimes against humanity, saying the intentional killing and

01:22hostage-taking of civilians was planned and highly coordinated.

01:27The report identifies the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas as the orchestrator of the attack,

01:32but names several other armed groups that committed war crimes on October 7th, including

01:36Islamic Jihad.

01:39The reality is that it really wasn't civilians from Gaza who perpetrated the worst abuses.

01:44That was a claim made very early on by Hamas to distance itself from the events, and by

01:49Israel to justify its retaliation operation.

01:52In its report, Human Rights Watch says that over 815 civilians were killed in the incursion,

01:58while according to Israeli data, 1,195 people lost their lives.

02:05Of the 251 people abducted that day, 116 are still being held in Gaza, 42 of whom have

02:11been declared dead by the Israeli army.

02:14Israel's reprisal, airstrikes and grand invasion in Gaza has so far killed more than 38,700

02:20people.

02:21Most were civilians, including some 14,000 children.

02:25Hamas has reacted angrily to the report, demanding that the NGO withdraw it and apologize.

02:33Catherine Cater-Clifford with that report.

02:34Well, we saw her quoted in Catherine's report.

02:37Let's bring in Belka Zwiller, who's a senior crisis and conflict researcher at Human Rights

02:41Watch, joining us live from Kiev in Ukraine.

02:44Belka, thanks for joining us.

02:46Disturbing revelations, and clearly from what you were just quoted as saying, it seems that

02:51in some way, both sides are trying to make their own agenda out of this in terms of trying

02:57to mask what was really happening.

02:59Absolutely.

03:01This desire really within hours of the attacks taking place and within hours of the world

03:07starting to see that atrocities were taking place, including atrocities against civilians,

03:13there was this desire both by Hamas and by Israel to blame civilians from Gaza.

03:19That kind of rhetoric blurring the line between combatants and civilians is really so incredibly

03:24harmful in the context of this conflict.

03:26It was essential in our research to make very clear that what we were seeing was that it

03:32was armed fighters in uniforms who committed the worst atrocities and who came in in a

03:37highly organized fashion.

03:39It really wasn't civilians from Gaza who should be blamed for what happened on October 7th.

03:43So can I just ask, are you actually saying that it is Hamas that has kind of brought

03:48this on basically innocent Palestinian civilians?

03:54Listen, I think the claim that civilians were to blame is again one that suits Hamas because

04:03it allows Hamas to distance its armed wing, the Qassam Brigades, from the serious atrocities.

04:11Things like numerous war crimes, the indiscriminate and deliberate targeting of civilians and

04:17civilian objects, the killing of people in custody, hostage-taking, looting, pillage

04:23and crimes of sexual and gender-based violence.

04:26Of course, Hamas wants to distance its forces from having participated in those acts.

04:31But again, the evidence couldn't be clearer.

04:33These atrocities were committed by fighters who were well-trained and planned.

04:37And it's not just the Qassam Brigades of Hamas.

04:40We identified four other armed groups that were intimately involved in carrying out these

04:45abuses as well.

04:46And Belkis, the nature of what happened, there has been claim, counter-claim, there's been

04:50claims of fake news, claims that it's been exaggerated in order to gain a certain effect

04:55and a certain means and aim.

04:59In what you've found, was it exaggerated or were the atrocities as bad as people fear

05:05and as people have reported?

05:09You know, in the first days after October 7th, there was a lot of chaos.

05:14There was a lack of clear information coming out.

05:17Certain allegations were made that proved false, ultimately.

05:20Some of the groups that made those allegations have retracted them themselves and have acknowledged

05:24that at the time they presumed that they were seeing things that didn't actually happen.

05:29That being said, I do think, you know, instantly within the wake of October 7th, you had people

05:35also diminishing what happened, arguing that clearly what happened that day wasn't so bad,

05:42that civilians weren't targeted to the extent that they really were.

05:46And it was really in this space of miss and disinformation that Human Rights Watch felt

05:52it was so important that we produce a fact-based report from us, an independent and objective

05:59human rights organization, and an organization that really operates within the confines of

06:03a clear mandate, documenting violations of human rights and humanitarian law.

06:08We don't look at politics.

06:09We don't look at justifications for ongoing armed conflict.

06:13What we look at is how conflict is being fought, and how warring parties are or are not abiding

06:19by their obligations vis-a-vis civilians.

06:22Indeed, Belkis, and it is very clear from what has been found that there were appalling

06:26atrocities committed, which is horrific.

06:29And clearly getting to the truth of the matter is all important.

06:33Truth and reconciliation tend to go together.

06:35No sign of reconciliation on the horizon at all, sadly.

06:38And I'm wondering whether there'll be a similar kind of investigation by Human Rights Watch

06:42over Israel's behavior since October the 7th, 38,000 Palestinians dead and still continuing.

06:49Absolutely.

06:50You know, if you look at our website, we've published over 120 pieces of research, shorter

06:57and longer, about the ongoing situation in Gaza over the last nine months.

07:01We are dedicated to continuing that research.

07:04Of course, one difficulty is that we do not have access to Gaza.

07:07We have asked the Israeli authorities and the Egyptian authorities to let us enter Gaza

07:11to do our documentation in an objective manner, but we haven't been given that access.

07:17Instead, we've traveled to North Sinai to interview people from Gaza who were evacuated

07:22for medical reasons.

07:23And just two weeks ago, a colleague and I, we traveled to Doha in Qatar again, amongst

07:28other things, to interview people who had just come out of Gaza and were getting medical

07:32treatment there.

07:34And all of those initiatives are really aimed at the same thing that this report was, documenting

07:40the truth, documenting the plight of civilians in this ongoing conflict.

07:44Belka Sawilla, it's a pleasure speaking to you.

07:46Your work is essential.

07:47I wish you every strength in continuing your search for the truth about matters as they

07:51are unfolding in front of our very eyes.

07:53Belka Sawilla of Human Rights Watch, thank you very much indeed for joining us.

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