- 7/1/2025
John and Charles explore the hidden history and radicalization behind certain religious movements in America, focusing on how fringe ideologies have influenced modern groups. They begin by discussing recent events involving Vance Boelter and the media’s framing of the situation, urging listeners to engage in critical thinking rather than reacting emotionally to politicized language. They trace connections between extremist movements of the 1920s and 1930s, such as Christian Identity and British Israelism, and modern offshoots like the New Apostolic Reformation. The conversation highlights how religious doctrines have been weaponized over time to serve authoritarian structures, brainwashing techniques, and political agendas.
Throughout their discussion, John and Charles emphasize that radicalization stems not from a single doctrine but from a dangerous mixture of fringe beliefs, authoritarian leadership models, and brainwashing tactics like positive confession. They explore historical figures such as Gordon Lindsay and the ways in which institutions like Christ for the Nations evolved, at times denying their connections to problematic roots. The hosts encourage honesty about historical ties and stress the need for accountability within these movements. They conclude by calling for greater public awareness of how these radical elements continue to pose threats to society under the guise of religious movements.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Vance Bolter and Media Narratives
03:05 Radicalization and Political-Religious Themes
10:02 History of Christian Nationalism and Identity Movements
12:55 Latter Rain and the Roots of Modern Movements
16:51 Radicalization Process Explained
23:51 British Israelism, Anti-Semitism, and Doctrinal Shifts
36:05 Dominion Theology and Christian Nationalism Origins
42:03 Political Shifts and Prophetic Influences
50:07 Gordon Lindsay, Christ for the Nations, and Historical Connections
57:03 The Call for Accountability and Closing Thoughts
1:02:03 Outro
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Throughout their discussion, John and Charles emphasize that radicalization stems not from a single doctrine but from a dangerous mixture of fringe beliefs, authoritarian leadership models, and brainwashing tactics like positive confession. They explore historical figures such as Gordon Lindsay and the ways in which institutions like Christ for the Nations evolved, at times denying their connections to problematic roots. The hosts encourage honesty about historical ties and stress the need for accountability within these movements. They conclude by calling for greater public awareness of how these radical elements continue to pose threats to society under the guise of religious movements.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Vance Bolter and Media Narratives
03:05 Radicalization and Political-Religious Themes
10:02 History of Christian Nationalism and Identity Movements
12:55 Latter Rain and the Roots of Modern Movements
16:51 Radicalization Process Explained
23:51 British Israelism, Anti-Semitism, and Doctrinal Shifts
36:05 Dominion Theology and Christian Nationalism Origins
42:03 Political Shifts and Prophetic Influences
50:07 Gordon Lindsay, Christ for the Nations, and Historical Connections
57:03 The Call for Accountability and Closing Thoughts
1:02:03 Outro
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend,
00:00:47Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her, My People.
00:00:54Charles, it's good to be back, and today we're digging into some of the most recent news.
00:01:01It interestingly ties into our research, so I know we've talked about it a few times
00:01:06on the Leaving the Message video channel, and you can see some interviews out there.
00:01:11Jed and I have talked about this.
00:01:13Dr. Stephen Hassan has talked about this.
00:01:16But I really wanted to dive deeper into the history, because in both instances as we're
00:01:21talking about it, I'm looking at the comments and emails coming back in, and I realize that
00:01:27people are just largely unfamiliar with all of this history, because so many of these
00:01:33groups have covered up their history, and I thought it would be good anyway if we dive
00:01:38in deeper.
00:01:39We're talking about Vance Bolter.
00:01:42He is the Minnesota gunman who went in and basically assassinated the top Democrat in the Minnesota
00:01:50House, and news is branding this as a conservative Christian killer, which I take a bit of offense
00:01:58with.
00:01:59You have two groups of people.
00:02:01You have the liberal Christians and the conservative Christians, and if you change that narrative where
00:02:07you're taking out an entire half of the Christian population and saying, this guy's associated
00:02:12with this, it's very denigrating to Christians.
00:02:17And at the same time, this person was, it looks as though he was changed into a radicalized
00:02:28preacher using some of the religious themes.
00:02:31I'm choosing my words carefully.
00:02:32That's why I paused there.
00:02:33With some of the groups that we've been discussing and involved with, and there's some history
00:02:40in those groups, so I want to dive deeper into that history and talk through that.
00:02:44And before we start, I will say that they're also linking him to Christ for the Nations,
00:02:50and Christ for the Nations, as we talk through this history, they likely don't believe some
00:02:56of the things in its own history.
00:02:58They've changed significantly, so we'll talk through the history, but it explains a little
00:03:03bit of where things ended up if we get into it.
00:03:05So let's talk through Vance Bolter.
00:03:09John, I'm looking forward to having a little talk about this today.
00:03:12You know, I'm not super familiar with the situation.
00:03:16You know, I've read the headlines like everybody else and saw a little bit, so I mean, I can comment
00:03:21some.
00:03:22He fortunately, I say fortunately, was taken in alive, right?
00:03:26So the good news is, at some point down the road, obviously, there's going to be a trial,
00:03:31and, you know, I'm sure the police have already interrogated him and everything.
00:03:35I'm sure whatever has happened here will come out in the trial, and whatever the motives
00:03:40were, what have you, will all come out, and everybody will have a firmer understanding
00:03:45of what motivated the whole thing, right?
00:03:47Right now, there's not, I mean, other than some details that have come out in news stories,
00:03:52there's not a whole lot of firm explanations as to what motivated this guy to go on his
00:03:59murder rampage.
00:04:00I heard in one news article, John, that he had a hit list of 70 people that he was going
00:04:06to kill, and they were all Democrats.
00:04:09So, I mean, that kind of gives you, you know, an idea of, you know, who he hated more, anyway.
00:04:15Yeah.
00:04:15And, you know, when you talk about stuff like this, you know, the two most controversial
00:04:20things in the world you can talk about, John, are politics and religion.
00:04:24My God, we're already talking about religion all the time, and you add politics in on that,
00:04:28boy, they might, you know, want to do something bad to us.
00:04:31So, I'm super careful.
00:04:32You know, I generally don't get into the politics side of things too much.
00:04:35I'm a pretty conservative person myself, right?
00:04:37But, you know, when you look at this, yeah, I'm coming at this, this is not a political
00:04:43angle, you know?
00:04:45And I think for people who live in the political space, it's hard to understand maybe what I'm
00:04:52talking about right here.
00:04:53Because for some people, politics is their religion.
00:04:58For other people, their religion is their politics, okay?
00:05:01And if this guy is like the people that you and I know, John, the people in the cult,
00:05:06their politics is not their religion.
00:05:08Their religion is their politics.
00:05:10And they don't look at this thing, like even when we're in the message in these cults, you
00:05:15don't look at this thing like you're typical liberal or conservative, right?
00:05:20I mean, yeah, there's things we care about with energy policy.
00:05:23Yeah, we got opinions on national defense.
00:05:25Yeah, we have preferred tax policies.
00:05:27Yeah, all that's true.
00:05:28But that is not the prism through which you look at the world and choose your candidates
00:05:32and have your political.
00:05:34It is a, it's an entirely based on the prophetic things in scripture.
00:05:39It's all based on demons and angels.
00:05:42Like your entire world political view is that.
00:05:45The prophecy has come forth that this great leader is to do this and that and we will do
00:05:50whatever is necessary in order to advance the kingdom, you know, and that is the, the prism
00:05:56you looking at it.
00:05:57And, and, and, and it don't matter what their tax policy is.
00:06:01It don't matter what their national defense, like that's all secondary to the fact that
00:06:05God has divinely commanded these things to happen.
00:06:08And that is the mindset of these people, right?
00:06:11And, and when you come at it from a conservative liberal angle, you just, you're not even in
00:06:17the right universe of what motivates, what motivates the minds of these people.
00:06:21Okay.
00:06:21And John, we know because we were these people for God's sake.
00:06:25I mean, come on.
00:06:25We were these people, you know, um, for, for a large part of our lives.
00:06:29We are from a cult that is a branch of this thing.
00:06:33And so anyways, that, that is disclaimer number one for me, John, as we start to talk about
00:06:38this and whether or not necessarily Mr. Vance Volter was one of these people, um, it certainly
00:06:44seems that way based on videos that we've seen.
00:06:46I mean, this guy would have fit in in a message church.
00:06:48Some of these preaching videos I've seen this guy give out, but is this, is he one of those
00:06:53guys?
00:06:54I don't know necessarily.
00:06:55So anyways, we're speculating a little bit here.
00:06:57Well, I guess while we're throwing out disclaimers, I've mentioned this often, but it doesn't seem
00:07:01to resonate when I say it.
00:07:03I have no interest at all in politics.
00:07:06I think both sides are corrupt.
00:07:08If I were to say I voted for one side or the other, people might take that as me having
00:07:14an opinion.
00:07:15And I vote because it's a freedom and I unfortunately regret some of my votes, but all of that aside,
00:07:23there are some very politically charged religious themes.
00:07:30And the problem with it is on both sides, whether you're a Democrat, whether you're a Republican,
00:07:36whenever those key words have been said in the news, the people, just like we were in the
00:07:44cult, Charles, the people have loaded language associated with each of those words.
00:07:49And so what happens is people completely shut off critical thinking.
00:07:53So for the sake of this episode, I'm definitely not voicing my opinion at all.
00:07:58You guys can, you know, guess what my opinion is if you want, but I'm not going to say it.
00:08:04However, I will say it like this.
00:08:06What has happened is the news media has scoured through the internet and they found this guy
00:08:13preaching.
00:08:14And I've listened to some of the preaching.
00:08:16I know Jed has.
00:08:18Jed did deeply because as he was going through his own family's history, he found some deep
00:08:23connections to this guy.
00:08:24And, um, that's, that came out in the podcast I did with Jed.
00:08:29You can, you can go back and listen to it, but what the news media did, they scoured to
00:08:34find anything that they could use that would incite anger from both sides.
00:08:40And what's the biggest way that you can incite anger?
00:08:42If you can find the guy preaching against abortion.
00:08:46So that's where they went with it.
00:08:48They found the guy preaching for abortion.
00:08:50And here's the sad part, Charles, because I mentioned the word abortion, you're going
00:08:56to find in the comments of this podcast, in my email, everywhere that you can look about
00:09:02this podcast, people will shut off all critical thinking and you'll find the people who are
00:09:07Democrat, who are in favor of abortion.
00:09:11They're going to fight as hard as they can in the comments against the people who are on
00:09:15the side where they are against abortion, usually in the Republican side, and they fight without
00:09:22engaging critical thinking.
00:09:24So they shut off all critical thought and they don't really recognize the fact that the news
00:09:30media has just played both sides.
00:09:32The news doesn't care.
00:09:34What they want to do in the news media is they want to incite anger because if you get the
00:09:39people talking, then all of the views go up, the stats go up.
00:09:44From technology standpoint, Charles, I know how this works.
00:09:47You get people talking and you get them angry.
00:09:49And if you can anger both sides, you've won.
00:09:52It doesn't matter what you said.
00:09:54But the history of this is very similar, as I've mentioned a few times, to some of the
00:10:00history that I covered in my latest book, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
00:10:05There are some terms that we need to define, and we'll do this as we go.
00:10:12But in the, I want to say it was the early to mid-1920s, a party rose up very similar to
00:10:22this, but they had different sets of religious issues.
00:10:26So instead of abortion being the big thing back then, there were other things that were
00:10:31the issues.
00:10:32One of them was the theory of evolution was turning into a hot religious political debate.
00:10:39And the Christians who were in the fundamentalist crowd rose up with the Christian Nationalist
00:10:46Party.
00:10:47And this became a theme.
00:10:49You had Christian nationalism.
00:10:50And the direct affiliation to this was the Christian identity, which was the extremist
00:10:58version of Christian nationalism, mixed with a whole bunch of other things, which we'll
00:11:02get into.
00:11:04And just like today, whenever I mention the word abortion and you watch all of the fighting
00:11:09that ensues, well, back then, if you mentioned the word evolution, the same thing was happening,
00:11:15but they did not have social media.
00:11:18So instead, what you had were all of these speeches, and people would talk and accuse
00:11:22one or the other of who knows what all.
00:11:25And just like today, everybody shut off critical thinking.
00:11:29So I'm going to ask, for the sake of this podcast, when I mention the word abortion, don't
00:11:33shut off critical thinking because there are comments that come after this.
00:11:37And the abortion isn't the issue here.
00:11:39It's more about the radicalization.
00:11:42It's very interesting, John, because as we've looked at the history of this movement for
00:11:47I don't know how many episodes, John, now, I mean, we've put, I don't know how many hundreds
00:11:51of hours we've recorded kind of looking into this ideology back to its roots, really in
00:11:57the 1800s, a lot of it.
00:11:58But there is this very radical element always within this idea.
00:12:07There's a particular fringe of it that is crazy, radical, militant, doomsday, you know,
00:12:15they're crazy.
00:12:17And they're embedded within a larger movement that is less crazy.
00:12:23And basically what happens is you've always got this fringe within it that has these certain
00:12:32really crazy beliefs and crazy things happen in it throughout the history of this thing,
00:12:39John.
00:12:39And now as we talk about maybe the connections of this fellow, Mr. Vance Bolter, just a little
00:12:45bit.
00:12:46So, you know, according to the news media, like you said, he, you know, we've got their sermons
00:12:50that he's preached.
00:12:51So, you know, we have a decent idea of what he was preaching.
00:12:55We've got, we know some of the churches and groups that he attended, and we know that
00:13:01he attended also Christ for the Nations Institute in the past for education.
00:13:07And what a lot of that does, John, if we look at the nexus of all of that, this man is from
00:13:13a splinter group of the latter rain.
00:13:15And his entire religious career is from what I would certainly describe as latter rain, latter
00:13:21rain influenced groups.
00:13:22He's from, he's from the religious movement that we're from, just another, just other
00:13:28branches of it, John.
00:13:30And, you know, this is the same movement that produced the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:13:35And if you go back in time and you look at who some of these groups were before they, you
00:13:42know, before they started some of these churches, groups he was involved with, yes, I mean, they
00:13:47have roots in, they have roots in the healing revivals, they have roots in the deliverance
00:13:51movement, they have roots with the message with William Branham on the latter rain.
00:13:55And embedded in all of that was this radical fringe group, which I say it's radical fringe.
00:14:02I mean, they was a sizable percentage of the overall movement embedded in that.
00:14:07And then the rest of them, the people in there are indeed influenced somewhat by those beliefs
00:14:12that are in there.
00:14:15And so, you know, did this guy get influenced by those beliefs?
00:14:19I mean, I would say anybody in these movements are influenced by these beliefs.
00:14:23That'd be my answer, because elements of that ideology, you know, the same ideology that
00:14:29produced Christian identity, the same ideology that produced the serpency teachings, that
00:14:34is the same ideology that produced the pyramidology.
00:14:37That is the same ideology that absorbed up in the positive confession.
00:14:40That's the same ideology that birthed a lot of these deliverance practices in those years.
00:14:45You know, it is part and parcel all of the same ideology, to be quite honest with you.
00:14:50And so they just de-emphasize the racial elements, and they keep some of the other crazier elements
00:14:57that manage to go a little bit more mainstream.
00:15:00That's how I would look at it, John, right?
00:15:01That's exactly how I would look at it, because I don't really see a lot of difference.
00:15:05You know, if you take the Christian identity people, the actual Christian identity movement,
00:15:11and I'm talking, you know, the crazy Aryan nation side of things, and you put that up
00:15:18against one of the more mainstream descendants of the latter rain movement, the only real
00:15:23significant difference in their underlying beliefs is that one side more strongly emphasized
00:15:29the racial elements in the serpency piece, and the other didn't.
00:15:33Otherwise, a lot of the rest of the underlying beliefs are compatible.
00:15:36For example, the, like I said, the positive confession, a lot of them, the obsession with
00:15:40doomsday, and even some of their eschatological beliefs all spring from common roots.
00:15:45Their obsession with pyramidology, a lot of that stuff is all the same in the underlying
00:15:50pieces of the ideology.
00:15:53And as they branched out, it's just like one side of the movement, you know, the, Gordon
00:15:59Lindsay is a great example, Christ for the Nations is a great example.
00:16:01Well, they moderated, they moderated with time, right, whereas the crazier Aryan nations type
00:16:08wing, they stayed radical and violent and dangerous, you know, in an extreme way.
00:16:14But, but you look, you look at some of them like Gordon Lindsay, like it seems like somewhere
00:16:19as you come into the mid and late 1950s, honestly, in the time that they start to fall out with
00:16:23William Branham, they moderate, they seem to moderate.
00:16:27Like I can't find any example, for example, Gordon Lindsay promoting this stuff after the
00:16:32mid-50s, you know, something changed in some of them where they dropped some of the most
00:16:38extreme radical elements, but then they kept some of the, we'll say the less radical elements,
00:16:44but still radical, right?
00:16:45And they just carry that ideology forward just in a, in a sort of a reformed way.
00:16:51So let's talk a bit through that radicalization process, because I think where people get lost,
00:16:57whenever Dr. Hassan and I were talking about it, and I think to some extent, Jed, I think
00:17:03people don't really understand what that is.
00:17:05And I made the joke, which it actually was more in truth than it was joke.
00:17:11I said, the problem, Jed, is because people have been radicalized themselves, they don't
00:17:15understand radicalization.
00:17:17And that's largely true for a lot of people.
00:17:20And I painted with too big of a brush when I said that.
00:17:23I apologize, but it is true.
00:17:26If you look through the comments, you can clearly tell those who are radicalized.
00:17:31But here's the issue, Charles.
00:17:34Take somebody who is in, I don't know, some extremist Islamic group, and you have really
00:17:42good people who can be radicalized.
00:17:45So you have somebody who's a really genuinely good person, but is in this ideology that is
00:17:50really dangerous.
00:17:52Come to the United States.
00:17:54You can ask every one of the neighbors before something bad happens, and they'll say, well,
00:17:59I knew that guy.
00:18:00I can't believe this happened.
00:18:02This was such a nice guy.
00:18:04Well, what has happened is the person has been radicalized.
00:18:07And their thoughts and intents are usually good, but something triggers them.
00:18:12They've got something in their head that triggers them into doing something really destructive.
00:18:17Radicalization doesn't always end in death like it does with Bolter or, as I'm talking
00:18:26through, some of the radical extremists in Islam.
00:18:30Radicalization can also just be somebody who gets violently angry at another person.
00:18:35They've been triggered.
00:18:37Most of the people who have angry comments against us, Charles, many of them I know personally,
00:18:43and they're good, good people, but they're radicalized.
00:18:46So whenever you say one of their trigger words, it sets off all of that programming in their
00:18:51head, and then it comes out their mouth.
00:18:53And I make the joke.
00:18:55I sometimes say it's like constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth.
00:19:00There's something wrong up here, and it just comes out.
00:19:03Well, in this radicalization process, where the news media gets it wrong, because I've had
00:19:10news media representatives contact me and ask me this question.
00:19:15When something really, really bad happens, they want to try to find a doctrine that's
00:19:21said to do the bad thing.
00:19:23So in Bolter's case, I'm sure there are journalists who are trying to find, okay, where did he get
00:19:28the notion that for somebody who believes in abortion that he should kill them?
00:19:33And they'll never find it, because that's not how radicalization works.
00:19:37Instead, what has happened is he's got all this programming up here that is making a spaghetti
00:19:42mess out of his logic.
00:19:44And then something triggers it, and that spaghetti mess, it's like a train going down the tracks,
00:19:49and then suddenly there's no rails.
00:19:51It could go towards death.
00:19:52It could go towards just spouting off at the mouth.
00:19:55You don't know where it's going to go, because it's so scrambled up here, it just comes out.
00:20:00And as I mentioned, Christian identity was the racial offshoot of this.
00:20:06Here's a weird example I can give.
00:20:08So you had all of these groups that were fighting against the liberal Christians back in the
00:20:1320s when we're talking about all of this information.
00:20:17You have one guy, we've mentioned him, Charles, Gerald Burton Winrod, who goes to Germany, takes
00:20:25counsel before Nazi Germany, as it was emerging into what became Nazi Germany, suddenly comes
00:20:33back with a large sum of money.
00:20:36This guy was poor, almost destitute.
00:20:39I mean, he had very little money.
00:20:41I'll just say it like that.
00:20:42Goes to Germany, comes back with a massive amount of money, and starts spreading the protocols
00:20:48of the learned elders of Zion, which was one of the most anti-Semitic pamphlets or books
00:20:54in history, in world history, spreading it all through the United States, and he starts
00:20:59connecting with key figures in the fundamentalist movement, some of which were deeply involved
00:21:06in what became the NAR.
00:21:08Charles Fuller, for example, Fuller Theological Seminary, where C. Peter Wagner was training
00:21:16and teaching.
00:21:17He was part of this movement.
00:21:18Darrell Bock John Wimber was there, too.
00:21:19John Wimber was there, too.
00:21:21And you can't say, well, John Wimber's anti-Semitic, but there's some history here that radicalizes
00:21:27people.
00:21:29You can also link Gordon Lindsay, who was the founder of Christ for the Nations Institute,
00:21:34to Christian identity.
00:21:35He's speaking in Christian identity conferences.
00:21:38He's spreading Christian identity doctrines.
00:21:41Can you say that he was anti-Semitic?
00:21:44I can't find any proof of it.
00:21:45But what I can tell you is that the doctrines that they're teaching, which are complete
00:21:50nonsense, if you know what it is that they're teaching, those doctrines were spread all throughout
00:21:57the Latter Rain movement through Gordon Lindsay, one of which is this idea that the UFOs were
00:22:04angels coming down to prepare the church for whatever was about to happen.
00:22:11And there were themes of what we kind of see today as dominionism.
00:22:16There were themes of rapture.
00:22:18They had different views of what this was.
00:22:20But the UFO doctrine was something that was deeply, deeply embedded to Christian identity.
00:22:25And what they did was they tried to, as they were doctrinalizing the weirdness, they were
00:22:32trying to spiritualize it such that you had a celestial body and you had an earthly body
00:22:38and the UFOs were going to come marry those two together.
00:22:41And you find those weird themes all throughout Gordon Lindsay.
00:22:44Is that anti-Semitic?
00:22:45No.
00:22:46But it is radicalized.
00:22:47He's teaching a radical, extra-biblical, nonsensical doctrine.
00:22:52And people are radicalized to the extent they believe the nonsense.
00:22:56And if you were back then to say, I don't believe that these lights we see in the sky
00:23:02have anything to do with Christianity, you guys are nuts.
00:23:06Well, it would be the same thing as today if we say abortion.
00:23:10Just the word abortion.
00:23:12If you said that to the UFO crowd back then, you would have people fighting and some of them
00:23:17would take up swords, man.
00:23:18That's how weird this is because they were radicalized with nonsense.
00:23:23So, can you say Gordon Lindsay was anti-Semitic?
00:23:26No.
00:23:26Can you say he was radicalized?
00:23:28Absolutely.
00:23:29I mean, go back to the early origins of this.
00:23:32And yeah, a lot of their ideas are based on pseudoscience, pseudo-archaeology, you know,
00:23:38pseudo-astronomy.
00:23:39Really weird, basically nuttery conspiracy stuff is what a lot of the stuff was based on coming
00:23:45out of the 1800s.
00:23:46And it really helps to know the background of this ideology.
00:23:53Even looking at, is it anti-Semitic or not, that's not even the right angle.
00:23:58Because, you know, when you go back to the early days, all of this was embedded in an
00:24:01ideology under the umbrella of British Israelism.
00:24:05That is where the roots of this stuff lay.
00:24:08And in that original ideology, it was not anti-Semitic.
00:24:12The original ideology of British Israelism was not an anti-Semitic.
00:24:15In fact, it was, you might say it was very supportive of the Jewish people.
00:24:21And in the original versions of British Israelism coming out of the 1800s, they basically believed
00:24:29that the English-speaking peoples were the ten lost tribes of Israel.
00:24:33Okay?
00:24:33And they believed the Jewish people were the other two not lost tribes.
00:24:38Okay?
00:24:38So they were not against the Jews when all this started.
00:24:41They were incredibly supportive of Israel.
00:24:44Incredibly supportive of the Jewish people.
00:24:47Okay?
00:24:47But what happens is, as you come up into the 1920s, the 1930s, you know, right, coming up into
00:24:54World War II, through the influence of literally Adolf Hitler, yeah, Adolf Hitler and Nazis, this
00:25:01ideology evolved into two branches.
00:25:04One of the branches decided, no, wait a minute, the Jews are not really the ten lost tribes.
00:25:09We got these learned protocols, the Zion, they're not, they're imposters, and they turn on the
00:25:15Jews, and they become very simpatico to the Nazis.
00:25:18That's one branch, John, and that's the branch that ends up in Aryan Nations.
00:25:22But there's another branch of this movement that never makes that shift, that never turns,
00:25:26that never, that continues to believe, no, the Jews really are the Jews, and we, but they
00:25:32still believe they're the ten lost tribes, and they're still incredibly pro-Jewish,
00:25:35like the original group.
00:25:37Okay?
00:25:38And, but when they make that split, the key difference is, one part of the movement stops,
00:25:44you know, turns on the Jews, the other part of the movement doesn't.
00:25:47But all of the rest of the back-end ideology is still the same, right?
00:25:52You know, their end-time beliefs about Israel, the restoration of Israel, all of these sorts
00:25:56of beliefs all remain the same in these two movements, and the key distinguisher between
00:26:03them is one becomes rabidly anti-Semitic, and the other continues to be pro-Israel.
00:26:09It's the, and there's a period of time when these two groups are still interacting together.
00:26:14The, the anti, you know, the anti-Semitic branch and the philo-Semitic branch remain friendly
00:26:21with each other, John, for a period of time.
00:26:23And they remain friendly in the 40s.
00:26:25They remain friendly into the 50s.
00:26:28And it's in the 50s, really, that you see the late, the early 50s and mid-50s, when you
00:26:34see the two branches start to diverge.
00:26:36The anti-Semitic branch goes one way, and the philo-Semitic branch goes the other way.
00:26:41Well, the anti-Semitic branch produces Aryan nations, the Christian identity movement,
00:26:47Church of God, Jesus Christ, they produce that group, those groups.
00:26:51Those are the people that, you know, marched the swastika and all of that terrible stuff.
00:26:56Well, the branch that stays philo-Semitic, John, is the group who becomes the latter rain
00:27:00movement.
00:27:01It's the latter rain, is the philo-Semitic branch of that movement, okay?
00:27:06So, we're talking George Houghton, we're talking William Branham, we're talking Gordon Lindsay.
00:27:12They're in the philo-Semitic branch of this movement.
00:27:15Absolutely, they are.
00:27:17I mean, there's not even a question.
00:27:18And the people who say they're not, you have not looked into this.
00:27:21You just have not looked into this.
00:27:24That's exactly what happened.
00:27:26And as you come up into the 50s, and the crazies are getting crazy, that is the same
00:27:30time that the key figures in latter rain start dropping the Ten Lost Tribes idea, right?
00:27:36Like, George Warnock, Holt, Gordon Lindsay, F.F. Bosworth died right in there.
00:27:42You see them, for whatever reason, right in that same time frame, they just stop talking
00:27:46about the, being the Ten Lost Tribes.
00:27:49They just totally stop.
00:27:50Now, not all of them do.
00:27:51I mean, George Houghton continued to, to the end of his life.
00:27:53You'll find elements of key figures in latter rain that continued to promote, you know,
00:27:58the full British Israel stuff right to the end of their life.
00:28:00But the guys who dropped the Ten Lost Tribes stuff, and they dropped the Philo-Semitic
00:28:07stuff, you know, the Ten Lost Tribes, they still remained Philo-Semitic, John.
00:28:11They still remained deeply supportive of Israel.
00:28:13They still kept all the rest of the ideology.
00:28:17The UFO nonsense, they kept that.
00:28:19The pyramidology nonsense, they kept that.
00:28:22The positive confession, manifested sons of God tape ideas that they imported from the
00:28:28South Coastian mysticism, all of that was kept in the, in this branch of the movement
00:28:32that went into the latter rain movement, okay?
00:28:35And this is what that movement looks like in the 50s, in the 60s, as it births the second
00:28:41wave of Pentecostalism.
00:28:43It's the same people.
00:28:44It's the same movement.
00:28:45It's the same ideology.
00:28:47And I think that it's just so important to, to, to, to be aware of, John.
00:28:51And, and you're correct.
00:28:52When you get to the radicalization, okay, when you have a cult, you, you can look into
00:28:57what creates a cult, what brainwashes and controls, but you need, you need certain pillars,
00:29:02right?
00:29:02You need a brainwashing technique, you need an authoritarian leadership model, and you need
00:29:08a carrot for the people to chase, right?
00:29:10Those are the three things you got to have to really produce a destructive cult.
00:29:15This ideology furnishes all three.
00:29:18And it's not the, it's not the philo-Semitic versus anti-Semitic that makes it the cult.
00:29:24No, it's the framework around it that makes the cult.
00:29:27And, and what does this ideology have, John?
00:29:30And, and I'll tell you, it's the same if you go over to the Christian, go over to the crazy
00:29:33side of it.
00:29:34It's the same thing that makes it a cult.
00:29:37John, they have the authoritarian leadership model.
00:29:39What is that?
00:29:40It's called the five-fold ministry, which is also the product of the same ideology.
00:29:45If you believe in five-fold ministry, you believe in the same ideology that the British
00:29:48Israelite forefathers invented back in the 1840s.
00:29:52That is the authoritarian leadership model that puts everyone under the control of either a
00:29:56singular prophet or apostle.
00:29:58And, as far as brainwashing technique, that is what positive confession is.
00:30:03Positive confession is a brainwashing technique.
00:30:07You have to say something is true and that you believe something regardless of all the evidence
00:30:12you encounter.
00:30:13You, you may be sick.
00:30:15You may have your cough.
00:30:16You may be bleeding, bleeding out.
00:30:18But, you're saying, praise Jesus, I am healed.
00:30:21I am healed.
00:30:22I am healed.
00:30:22While you're bleeding out on the floor, I'm healed.
00:30:25I'm healed.
00:30:25It tells you, you have to believe and say something no matter what.
00:30:29I am prosperous because I say I am prosperous.
00:30:32Forget it that I'm about to go bankrupt next week.
00:30:34I am prosperous.
00:30:35I am prosperous.
00:30:36I am prosperous.
00:30:37Positive confession is a brainwashing technique.
00:30:40And, you can apply it to anything.
00:30:42It's mind over matter brainwashing technique.
00:30:45Okay, so now, five-fold ministry, authoritarian model, positive confession, brainwashing technique.
00:30:50Now, you need your carrot on the stick.
00:30:52And, the carrot on the stick comes out of the manifested sons of God teachings, John.
00:30:55All of these people are chasing the promise of manifested sons of God.
00:31:00Some people call it the dominionism.
00:31:02Some people call it perfecting of the saints.
00:31:05A lot of people tie the rapture to the end of it.
00:31:07Some, you know, they tie a perfect world at the end of it.
00:31:10There's a carrot they're chasing.
00:31:12I've got my authoritarian leadership model.
00:31:13I've got my mind over matter thought control.
00:31:16Okay?
00:31:17And, I've got the carrot that I'm chasing with all of this.
00:31:20That is in the ideology.
00:31:21And, all of the bells and whistles around it are not entirely relevant.
00:31:25Right?
00:31:26Because, whatever the leader, whoever decides to make the, here's the steps you must chase in order to get to this carrot.
00:31:33This is where the demons and the angels and all of that come into.
00:31:36I need leader X in X political position, carrying out X agenda, in order for me to have the manifested sons of God.
00:31:45And, by God, I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to get there.
00:31:48Let's get out the vote.
00:31:49Let's do what we've got to do.
00:31:50Because, we need leader X in position Y in order to have our, you know, manifestation to come.
00:31:56It's the last day revival, ladies and gentlemen.
00:31:58You've got to get out there and do your part.
00:32:00That is what this ideology does.
00:32:02And, the last day revival is in the whole thing.
00:32:04John, I mean, I can talk about this thing for hours.
00:32:07I mean, but this is what, this is what this ideology is.
00:32:10Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started?
00:32:13Or, how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:32:23You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:32:30On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:32:45You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:32:51If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:32:58And, as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:33:04On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:33:09Charles, whenever you were saying Leader X, my mind goes all kinds of weird directions.
00:33:14And I was thinking of one of my favorite movies was the Batman from the 90s.
00:33:18And the Joker stood up there in the television commercial, and he says, she's been using brand X.
00:33:25And as my mind was going there, I started thinking of all the similarities.
00:33:30And it suddenly struck me.
00:33:32Here's a good way to break it down, that we can use the Joker and Batman.
00:33:37And to go ahead and clear the air right now, I've been accused of a lot of things.
00:33:42And I'll just say it like this.
00:33:45You never see Batman where I am.
00:33:47So you can take that as you want or leave it.
00:33:49I've been accused.
00:33:50But anyway, as we break it down using the Batman movie, what Joker did is very similar to what we're describing here.
00:33:59They were trying to – it was one of the greatest detective mysteries for the Batman.
00:34:03People were turning into having Joker face, and they would go insane and crazy.
00:34:09And why are the people in the city going crazy?
00:34:12Government couldn't figure it out.
00:34:14Police couldn't figure it out.
00:34:15And Joker's got these advertisements where he's selling makeup, of all things.
00:34:21And Batman went into the Batcave and started to understand that, wait a minute.
00:34:25If you use the lipstick, nothing happens.
00:34:27If you use the face powder, nothing happens.
00:34:30If you use the hairspray, nothing happens.
00:34:31But whenever you combine all of those, the chemicals that are put into the body cause people to have Joker face.
00:34:39And they went crazy.
00:34:41Bat crazy.
00:34:42Well, if you look at this theology, dominionism.
00:34:48If people were to preach true Christianity and then this nonsensical version of dominionism that's in the NR today,
00:34:56does that radicalize?
00:34:57Not really.
00:34:58It's quite incorrect, and they're incompatible, and you start to understand, well, wait a minute.
00:35:04We're preaching this dominion thing, and we're preaching true Christianity.
00:35:08One of these doesn't look like the other.
00:35:11And then they'll throw out dominionism.
00:35:13But take the positive confession, where you've got the brainwashing element, and preach dominionism.
00:35:18You can combine these things in different variations or orders, and you can radicalize somebody and make them crazy.
00:35:25So now, Charles, let's take this radicalization to a much broader scale.
00:35:31Whenever Jesus was talking about the coming kingdom, and I mean, even one of the greatest, I've mentioned this a few times,
00:35:39one of the greatest scenes in the New Testament is where Satan comes and shows them all of the kingdoms of the world and says,
00:35:45all of this can be yours, Jesus, and Jesus says, my kingdom's not of this world.
00:35:51So if you're preaching true Christianity and you mix it with dominionism, you start to say, well, wait a minute.
00:35:57That doesn't fit.
00:35:58That's not what Jesus said.
00:36:01Now take it back into the history that we've walked through.
00:36:04So, Charles, I'm going to try to sum up as quickly as I can.
00:36:08And I know this podcast can't hold all of the podcasts we've done, but let's talk through this a bit.
00:36:13So I mentioned the evolution theory, the Scopes trial, some of that history a few times with you and with Jed and Dr. Stephen Hassan.
00:36:23So back in the early 20s, mid-20s, I guess it was, the Klan was in disarray.
00:36:31William Branham's mentor, Roy Davis, was deeply embedded into the theological aspects of the Klan
00:36:39as it was starting to merge with Christian identity, which was the anti-Semitic racist version of British Israelism, as you just said.
00:36:49Evolution was the key word.
00:36:51Today, again, we have today, you mentioned abortion, you mentioned homosexuality.
00:36:57We have different keywords today that were the triggers.
00:37:00Well, back then, it was evolution.
00:37:03And the threat, according to Christian identity, was that our nation is being invaded by, and this is an offensive word, I'm going to use it because that's what they did.
00:37:12They would say they're mongrels.
00:37:14And what this is essentially is like a cult mindset.
00:37:18There's us versus them.
00:37:19So they were trying to say that everybody who isn't of our ideology, they're mongrels, and they come from the bad side.
00:37:26Under Christian identity, this would be the people who aren't of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel, usually Jews or somebody who has some weird connection to any of the people that they were denigrating.
00:37:40I'll just say it like that.
00:37:41So what they wanted to do is they wanted to create a kingdom in the United States that was more supreme than the one that was currently established.
00:37:53And so they created this organization called the Supreme Kingdom.
00:37:57William Branham's mentor was touring with Caleb Ridley, who is deeply embedded in this thing.
00:38:02And this was more, even though it was a business organization and a pyramid scheme, it was more of an ideology than anything.
00:38:10The people who we don't agree with have now taken over our government.
00:38:15And interestingly, it has flipped.
00:38:17The Democratic Party and the Republican Party flipped because of all of this history.
00:38:22So if you go back far enough, you'll find the people of your party that you're fighting against one direction or the other, you'll find it in the opposite direction.
00:38:33And they're saying, we need to get those people out of office.
00:38:35We need to take over America.
00:38:37We need to restore it.
00:38:39We need to claim dominion over this thing that exists.
00:38:43And their ideology is so far vastly different than ours, we must push them out.
00:38:49And that was the way things progressed.
00:38:51So they're teaching the kingdom theology, the dominion theology, the very foundation for what we see today was being taught back then, but for a completely different set of political religious values.
00:39:05And this escalated, as we went through in our podcast, this escalated into many, many different things, especially in the 60s.
00:39:13But the premise for all of it really was this idea that we should take dominion back because our ideology says that we have lost that dominion.
00:39:25So we're going to take it back.
00:39:26This is our kingdom.
00:39:27This is our nation.
00:39:28We want it back.
00:39:30We want to be, we're nationalists.
00:39:32We want to support the United States, but we're Christian nationalists while they are not.
00:39:37And so you start to see the Christian nationalist movement being birthed because of all of this.
00:39:42So as all of these threads of history that we're talking about are starting to emerge, you have the birth of what became the foundation, the very foundation for the radicalization that we see today.
00:39:56Christian nationalist is such a loaded term, John.
00:39:58And I, myself, you know, I try to avoid it.
00:40:01It's just to be careful.
00:40:02But, you know, there are people who, there are people who, when you say Christian nationalist, that just means the majority of the people in the United States are Christian.
00:40:11We got a Christian culture.
00:40:12Well, I mean, that's, yes, it's always been that way.
00:40:15Yes.
00:40:15And that way it is a Christian nation.
00:40:17For other people, when you say Christian nationalists, it means I'm taking over the government, setting up a theocratic state.
00:40:24And that is, no, that's not good.
00:40:28And we haven't had that.
00:40:29And we don't need that.
00:40:30So I just throw out those two caveats.
00:40:33And you're talking about the latter.
00:40:34You're talking about the people who want to set up a, basically, a theocracy in the United States, which is, yeah, what, I mean, come on.
00:40:44We fought the revolution over that stuff, right?
00:40:46I mean, we had a theocratic state.
00:40:50I mean, the Church of England is the official church of the United Kingdom.
00:40:54The king of England is the head of the Church of England, right?
00:40:56We used to have a church and state merged before the revolution, right?
00:41:01So they would – anyways, the people who want to do that want to undo the revolution.
00:41:04They want to re-merge church and state back together and have a theocratic state.
00:41:08That didn't work out so well the last time.
00:41:10I mean, you look pretty well most every country in history that did that.
00:41:12It didn't work out very well.
00:41:14I mean, come on.
00:41:14We're going to end up with the pope if we do a thing like that.
00:41:17Because what happens when it's the Christian denomination that don't like you that gets power?
00:41:21Uh-oh.
00:41:22Then you're in trouble, right?
00:41:24I mean, if we do a Christian nationalist thing, I mean, who's going to rule us?
00:41:27I mean, do you want to be ruled by the Baptists?
00:41:29Or do you want to be ruled by the Presbyterians?
00:41:31Or do you want to be ruled by the Catholics?
00:41:32Like, it sounds good in theory, maybe, to the Christians of some sort.
00:41:38But when you realize that, you know, your sliver of the pie is going to be apostates who all, you know, get thrown into prison, it doesn't sound so good anymore, does it?
00:41:46I mean, come on.
00:41:47It's not a good idea.
00:41:49But going back to this, John, the way you mentioned how they flip-flop political parties, again, I think really demonstrates how this thing is not political in their traditional sense of conservative or liberal.
00:42:02You're right.
00:42:03I mean, you go back to the 1800s, these guys were all Democrats.
00:42:06They were all Democrats.
00:42:07William Brian Jennings, these were, was their guy.
00:42:11They loved William Brian Jennings.
00:42:12He was the hero to these guys, okay?
00:42:15And they're not representative of the entire Democratic Party back then, not by a long shot, any more than today they're representative of the entire Republican Party.
00:42:23They are a radical fringe minority of the larger movement.
00:42:28But they loved William Brian Jennings, and they were all Democrats back then.
00:42:32Absolutely.
00:42:33They were Democrats up to the close of the 1800s.
00:42:36And then you come into the early, the early 1910s and 1920s is when a shift starts to happen.
00:42:42You know, as William Jennings Brian dies, and they, they, there's something that happens.
00:42:49I mean, I don't, I'll be honest, I don't entirely understand why necessarily the shift happened.
00:42:54And a lot of it has to do with Roosevelt and the fact that they thought Roosevelt was a communist, okay?
00:43:01And their prophecies told them that Roosevelt was the gonna bring on the end of days and stuff.
00:43:06So this is why, they didn't stop being Democrats because they were opposed to the Democrats' tax policies.
00:43:13They stopped being Democrats because their leaders prophesied that Roosevelt's gonna bring on the end of days.
00:43:18Like, it's not, this is not typical conservative liberal stuff.
00:43:23And they shift over, and they, gradually, they are all become Republicans.
00:43:27You know, by the time you get into the 1940s and 1950s.
00:43:29By the time you're into the 60s, they're all Republicans, okay?
00:43:32I mean, that's just how this ideology evolved.
00:43:37But the truth is, John, it shifts, it kept shifting.
00:43:41I mean, they flip-flopped multiple times through these years as to what they are.
00:43:45It's just whoever the leaders are prophesying against and for that really affect which side of the aisle
00:43:51or who they're supporting in what, what given situation.
00:43:56I think that's just so important to, to pay attention to and to notice that that's happening.
00:44:01And it's not typical conservative versus liberal thinking that makes these changes.
00:44:07It is something entirely religious, entirely within the realms of this religious ideology that makes them shift back and forth.
00:44:15You know, honestly, I think that's why everybody has so much trouble trying to pinpoint exactly what is this mass.
00:44:23Because you can't really say it's one religious party or the other.
00:44:26You can't really say that it's one political party or the other.
00:44:28Like Joker said, it's the combination of all of these things.
00:44:33It's not brand decks.
00:44:34You can't really point it to one single brand and say that's what happened here.
00:44:39If the politics were the foundation for what's happening here, if the political parties were the foundation,
00:44:46it would remain that way forever.
00:44:49But because religion has been mixed with politics to try to shift political votes,
00:44:57then it becomes a situation where the ideology itself is the party.
00:45:03You're either affiliated with this ideology or you're not.
00:45:06You're either with us or against us.
00:45:08You're either in the cult of whatever is the ideology or you're not in the cult.
00:45:12And that cult mindset, I think, is the problem.
00:45:15And you hit the nail on the head when I was thinking through that as you were talking.
00:45:20I've never really formulated that into words.
00:45:23But it is true.
00:45:24Positive confession brainwashes you.
00:45:27And it's just one of many doctrines that these guys, I think they have to know that if you can give somebody a doctrine that by definition,
00:45:36the doctrine means you must completely shut off critical thinking.
00:45:40By definition, if positive confession, I have this ailment, I have this cancer.
00:45:46I go to the doctor.
00:45:47The doctor shows me clearly the cancer is growing inside of me.
00:45:51But positive confession, I'm going to tell that doctor, well, you're wrong.
00:45:55Your machine is wrong.
00:45:57God said that this cancer is not in me.
00:45:59So therefore, it's not in me.
00:46:01And the doctor can argue till he's blue in the face.
00:46:04You've shut off all your critical thinking.
00:46:05You are essentially brainwashed.
00:46:08That's positive confession.
00:46:10Same thing with the – I was going through, as you were talking, I was going through all of the different brainwashing doctrines.
00:46:16Prosperity gospel.
00:46:18I'm as poor as dirt.
00:46:20I work at a fast food restaurant.
00:46:23I'm trying to support a family of ten people.
00:46:26Not me.
00:46:26I'm using this as an example.
00:46:28Trying to support all of my ten kids.
00:46:31There's very little opportunity for me to make money in this situation.
00:46:34Right now, I don't even know how somebody in the fast food industry can survive.
00:46:40And then there are people – I know some of these people, Charles.
00:46:43They watch the television.
00:46:44They listen to these prosperity gospel teachers.
00:46:47They have no means to make money.
00:46:49But they will send the guy money.
00:46:51Because if they send him their money, they're being told that they'll get rich.
00:46:56Brainwashing.
00:46:56I mean, how clear of an example of brainwashing is this?
00:47:00You go through all the – word of faith movement.
00:47:02If you start to use the rhema, if you start to use – we called it the spoken word, the voice of God.
00:47:08I remember trying to speak things, Charles.
00:47:11I don't know if you did this.
00:47:12I was brainwashed.
00:47:14I was trying to make something exist that did not exist.
00:47:18Pure definition of insanity.
00:47:20But that's what you've been programmed and manipulated to do.
00:47:24And I can already see the comment feedback.
00:47:26You'll say, well, Jesus said, speak into the mountain and let it be removed.
00:47:30And I responded to one person in the comment feeds.
00:47:34I said, well, the moment in which you are able to actually do this, the moment in which you can move a mountain,
00:47:42it will answer your question as to whether Jesus was speaking in metaphors or speaking literally.
00:47:49Because I have yet to find a single Christian who can speak a mountain to move.
00:47:54But they've been brainwashed to think that that passage means that they can literally move a mountain.
00:47:59They've been brainwashed.
00:48:00Every single one of these doctrines that are the foundation for the New Apostolic Reformation today,
00:48:07almost every one of them are a brainwashing doctrine or a political doctrine.
00:48:12And that's the problem.
00:48:14Like the Joker, like the different makeups and hairsprays, etc., you have a combination.
00:48:20You have this cafeteria-style religion where I'm going to be not the Word of Faith crowd.
00:48:25I'm going to be instead the prosperity gospel.
00:48:28I'm going to send money that I don't have to these people.
00:48:30I'm going to be brainwashed.
00:48:32And I'm going to believe maybe they're teaching dominionism.
00:48:35Maybe they're teaching one of the other ones.
00:48:37It's a cafeteria-style means to brainwash people.
00:48:41And that's really scary because what they have done along with this, like you mentioned the five-fold ministry doctrines,
00:48:48they've actually hypercharged the doctrines that were used in latter reign to create the authoritarian cult structures.
00:48:56They've actually made them worse today while using the same indoctrination techniques
00:49:02and all of the same variations of ways in which you can brainwash people.
00:49:07And today, it seems to be, and this is my opinion, it seems to be even more leaning towards the political side than it did back in the 20s and 30s.
00:49:17So we have a bigger mess today with a bigger means to brainwash the people and try to program them to sway political votes one way or another.
00:49:26And what's the purpose of all of this?
00:49:28I just take a step back and I say, well, what does it matter?
00:49:32Because if you look at the parties, the past few presidents, in my opinion, this is my opinion, they were buffoons.
00:49:40It really didn't matter which party you pick.
00:49:43You literally got the choice of buffoon A or buffoon B.
00:49:47But you find people so radicalized and so brainwashed that they think buffoon A is an intelligent person.
00:49:55Buffoon B is an intelligent person.
00:49:57In my opinion, you have to be brainwashed to like either candidate.
00:50:03When you talk about, you know, this ideology, you go back to the late 1800s, the early 1900s.
00:50:10The preeminent figure in this ideology is John Alexander Dowie.
00:50:16He is the kingpin, the top of this ideology, okay?
00:50:20He started a cult commune in Illinois, just north of Chicago.
00:50:26And born in his cult commune in Zion was Gordon Lindsay, okay?
00:50:33His parents had been in the ideology before he was born.
00:50:35He was born into this ideology.
00:50:37He was born into this movement.
00:50:38His family went through multiple schisms.
00:50:41They next followed Charles Parham, who was also a British Israelite, who also adhered to elements of this ideology.
00:50:48He was baptized under Charles Parham.
00:50:51From there, they went following John Lake, who was also one of John Alexander Dowie's lieutenants out of Zion.
00:50:57John Lake ordained Gordon Lindsay as a minister, right?
00:51:01John Lake was a British Israelite who taught large elements of this ideology.
00:51:07Gordon Lindsay then becomes a church planner working in Foursquare.
00:51:11Foursquare was the last significant denomination within Pentecostalism that still embraced this ideology as you come into the 1930s and 1940s.
00:51:21Gerald Winrod, the Kansas Hitler, was preaching at their churches.
00:51:25Angelus Temple, their headquarters, they were publishing all this in their literatures.
00:51:28Gordon Lindsay is right there planting churches for them.
00:51:31In the adjacent district to him, Foursquare planted Sharon Orphanage, where the Ladder Rain movement started.
00:51:37Also adherents of this ideology.
00:51:40William Branham partners with Gordon Lindsay.
00:51:43Gordon Lindsay is more responsible than any other person in the world for popularizing William Branham, John.
00:51:50And, you know, as people who've escaped the message cult, you and I are lifelong members of the message cult of William Branham.
00:51:55We are from the first and second oldest churches of the movement.
00:51:59We were both from levels of, very highly connected to the levels of senior leadership in the movement.
00:52:07Our families were in this from the early days as well.
00:52:11Gordon Lindsay bears responsibility for helping launch the message cult.
00:52:15The message is just as much one of Gordon Lindsay's legacies as Christ for the Nations Institute, okay?
00:52:23There is no message cult without Gordon Lindsay, okay?
00:52:26And it's just so absolutely dishonest the way people twist history.
00:52:31Gordon Lindsay came to my church, John.
00:52:33Gordon Lindsay came to your church.
00:52:35Don't you tell me he didn't have nothing to do with us, you bunch of silly people.
00:52:40Gordon Lindsay came to our churches, okay?
00:52:42And after his breakup with William Branham in, you know, as that happened, Gordon Lindsay produced Christ for the Nations.
00:52:50But what was Christ for the Nations, John, before it became Christ for the Nations?
00:52:54It was a deliverance seminary that he co-opted and worked with William Branham in.
00:52:59And, John, who went to the miniature seminary that turned into Christ for the Nations?
00:53:04Did you know Ewald Frank went to that seminary, John?
00:53:06Oh, wow.
00:53:06Ewald Frank, the guy working with Paul Schaeffer in Colonia Dignidad, he went to that seminary, yeah, in 1958.
00:53:12He did.
00:53:12Who else went to that seminary?
00:53:14Holbert Freeman, who killed like 200 of the people in his congregation back in the 80s.
00:53:18Do you know how many people were in that seminary and did really horrendous stuff?
00:53:23A whole lot of people.
00:53:24And you know who else was in that seminary?
00:53:26Most of the early leading preachers in the message were in that seminary, too.
00:53:31After the breakup with William Branham, Gordon Lindsay transitioned that into Christ for the Nations.
00:53:37It was the same seminary, right?
00:53:39And I am so glad that Gordon Lindsay moderated.
00:53:42I am so glad that Gordon Lindsay changed his mind on some of this ideology and turned his back on it and moderated.
00:53:49But it is an absolute outrageous deception to pretend that none of those things ever happened.
00:53:55And I am personally offended that people from Christ for the Nations want to say they have no connection and nothing to do with this.
00:54:02You're dishonest.
00:54:04That is absolutely an outrageous lie.
00:54:06And you need to stop doing that.
00:54:08And I'm glad that they moderated and they're not the crazy people that they used to be.
00:54:13Praise the Lord for that.
00:54:14But don't deny the reality of the history of this thing that happened.
00:54:18Gordon Lindsay is just as responsible for producing the message cult as anybody else in this world.
00:54:26That is the truth.
00:54:28Absolutely the truth.
00:54:30And I have in my email, there was a person who was radicalized at Christ for the Nations.
00:54:34And Gordon Lindsay, if you're in that cult, there are people, not all of them, but there are people who are radicalized to the extent that Gordon Lindsay is their central figure.
00:54:44He's their Mike Bickle.
00:54:45He's their Bill Johnson.
00:54:47He's their William Branham.
00:54:48And when we published the, we did Gordon Lindsay, a documentary, I think we called it, where we walked through the history of Gordon Lindsay.
00:54:57This guy was irate sending me email because we just attacked his central figure, he thought.
00:55:03And all we did essentially was just share the history of Gordon Lindsay, the history as it was written, not the history as he had been told.
00:55:11So he started fighting with me and I don't engage in the fighting.
00:55:15I just said, look, man, you can believe what you want.
00:55:17Well, he kept sending email, kept sending email.
00:55:20And he took the greatest defense that he took was that Gordon Lindsay was involved with the Christian identity in the British Israel doctrines.
00:55:30So he's saying, no, this isn't true.
00:55:32You guys mentioned he published books.
00:55:34He did not.
00:55:34So he wrote into Christ for the Nations and the correspondent who responded to him, their PR expert, I guess, responded back.
00:55:43You're absolutely correct.
00:55:44Gordon Lindsay was never involved with this.
00:55:46He never believed this.
00:55:47He never wrote a single book on it.
00:55:50And Charles, you own some of those books.
00:55:52You have the books, right?
00:55:54I've got digital copies of the books.
00:55:56The way in which they cover it up isn't that they try to skirt the issue or they try to just simply avoid it altogether.
00:56:05Many of the organizations that we mentioned will outright lie to the people to cover it up.
00:56:11And that's why the history has been written so incorrectly.
00:56:15And it's very strategic.
00:56:17I want to mention this.
00:56:18And I know we're running out of time.
00:56:20I could ramble on about this for hours.
00:56:22But I want to mention this.
00:56:24It's very strategic that they lie about the history.
00:56:26Because if people come in contact with the history, there's so much power in learning the truth that people will deny the faults.
00:56:35So you can't let the people come in contact with the truth about your organization.
00:56:40There are, I am in contact with some of the organizations that we mentioned.
00:56:47I'm not going to mention their names.
00:56:49But some of the organizations that help start all the mess actually own their history.
00:56:54And they'll openly tell you, yes, these guys were nuts.
00:56:58They believe some very nutty things.
00:57:00But we've moved on past that.
00:57:02It's our history.
00:57:03I'm not going to deny our history.
00:57:04But we no longer believe like this.
00:57:07Christ for the Nations could do that.
00:57:09They could say, yeah, Gordon Lindsay was nuts.
00:57:11Yeah, he helped start a global movement that was a cult.
00:57:15The entire movement was a cult.
00:57:17We're not going to deny this.
00:57:19But we've changed.
00:57:20They could do this.
00:57:21Any of the people that we mentioned, the organizations that we mentioned, they all could be honest about it and just say, yeah, we've changed.
00:57:29And I would be very respectful of that change.
00:57:32I changed, too.
00:57:34I was not a good person when I was in the cult.
00:57:36I changed.
00:57:37So I'm just going to put it out there as a blanket offer to anybody who is in any of the organizations or ministries that we talk about.
00:57:45You're welcome to change, but own your past, because the past is clearly written, and people will discover it.
00:57:52When they do, they will leave your cult.
00:57:54I think that is very, very well said, John.
00:57:57Because, you know, me and you, we're from this movement, too.
00:58:00Hey, guess what, John?
00:58:01We were in a cult, and we helped spread cult ideas.
00:58:03And, you know, according to the Bible, we should be very merciful to people in our situation.
00:58:11You know, those who show mercy obtain mercy.
00:58:13We need a lot of mercy, John.
00:58:14Okay?
00:58:14So I'm very merciful, you know.
00:58:16And Gordon Lindsay is like this figure, to me, who is this enigma, honestly.
00:58:22I truly believe that Gordon Lindsay woke up somewhere in the later years of his life and started to distance himself from it.
00:58:29I really do.
00:58:30But he never, you know, you've still got to be honest about it.
00:58:35Gordon Lindsay just kind of hoped people would forget, I think, is what he tried to do.
00:58:41And, yeah, I mean, that's, you just can't do that.
00:58:44You just can't do that.
00:58:45I mean, I'm glad Gordon Lindsay moderated at the end of his life.
00:58:48I'm glad Christ for the Nations.
00:58:50I mean, you've interviewed people from Christ for the Nations on the podcast before.
00:58:53They seem like normal people, you know.
00:58:55I mean, I don't, I'm sure that they're not a crazy nut factory anymore, hopefully.
00:58:59But I'm telling you what, Christ for the Nations, what it was as it transitioned in the late 50s and 60s,
00:59:06was a nut factory for cult leaders.
00:59:09It absolutely was.
00:59:11And some of the people who went through that seminary were mass murderers.
00:59:15And they killed and killed and killed and killed.
00:59:18Let's talk about Hobart Freeman.
00:59:19Let's talk about Ewald Frank and the stuff that happened in Colonial Dignidad.
00:59:23I mean, you go down that list.
00:59:25Yeah, a whole lot of really problematic people attended that seminary in its very early days.
00:59:33But, again, very glad that Gordon Lindsay moderated and changed his mind on some of these things in the later years of his life.
00:59:39All right?
00:59:39So I guess that's where we ended today, John.
00:59:42Yeah, there's so much more we could say.
00:59:44You and I could talk for hours and hours about this, and it's one of my fascinations.
00:59:48I love the history, and I love talking through it, which is why I wanted to do a follow-up to the conversations that we've had.
00:59:55But there's so much more that we could say, but hopefully it gives the people at least some of the background to understand why we see bad things happen in connection to some of the Christian movements.
01:00:09And it isn't the political theme.
01:00:11Like this guy, Vance Bolter, they try to target the abortion issue, and they want to incite anger on both sides.
01:00:20If both sides could just take a step back, and even the news media, just take a step back and realize this person did a very bad thing.
01:00:28He was radicalized.
01:00:29You can't control what his radicalization is going to do when it happens, and then realize that every single person who's in the movement has the potential to also be radicalized in either the same way or maybe far worse, maybe not to the same extent.
01:00:45Every person who takes this mixture, this concoction of bad doctrine mixed with brainwashing doctrine mixed with all of the other things, each person is a potential threat.
01:00:57And I think people would take a step back and reevaluate some of these religious movements and just say, you know, we're done with this.
01:01:06You guys can go somewhere else.
01:01:09We do not want these religious nonsense movements in our country.
01:01:13Get those out.
01:01:14Don't get the Democrats or Republicans out.
01:01:17Get the religious nutjob movements out.
01:01:20I think that's the takeaway, if there is a takeaway.
01:01:23So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
01:01:27You can find us at william-branham.org and christiangospelchurch.org.
01:01:32For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals, you can read Come Out of Her, My People.
01:01:37And for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
01:01:45Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:01:57For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.
01:02:09For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.