- 6/23/2025
John and Jed explore Lance Boelter’s background, his education at Christ for the Nations Institute, and his involvement in the broader network known as the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Drawing on personal experiences and insider perspectives, they examine how leadership structures, spiritual rhetoric, and ideological frameworks shaped his worldview.
As the conversation unfolds, Jed shares deeply personal insights—including his family’s experience at a mission commune linked to early Kansas City Fellowship leadership. The hosts reflect on how some modern religious movements blur the lines between spiritual and political spheres. Their discussion highlights the challenges of accountability within loosely affiliated networks and raises important questions about the influence of charged language and unchecked authority.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
As the conversation unfolds, Jed shares deeply personal insights—including his family’s experience at a mission commune linked to early Kansas City Fellowship leadership. The hosts reflect on how some modern religious movements blur the lines between spiritual and political spheres. Their discussion highlights the challenges of accountability within loosely affiliated networks and raises important questions about the influence of charged language and unchecked authority.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of
00:00:47a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.
00:00:51Jed, it's good to be back and to talk about all things troubling in today's world of politics
00:00:57and Christianity, and this week I had a conversation with Dr. Stephen Hassan, so it'll come out
00:01:06before this podcast gets published in the lineup of things, and I think we're injecting this
00:01:11podcast in our lineup, so the others will come back later.
00:01:15But Dr. Hassan contacted me, and he wanted to talk about the assassination that happened
00:01:21in Minnesota, where a radicalized person was evidently, as I understand it, he had a hit
00:01:30list of like 50 names.
00:01:32And the media, the news media had branded this as a conservative Christian, which I took great
00:01:38issue with, because in the world of Christianity, you have the liberal Christians and you have
00:01:44the conservative Christians, so literally they branded 50% of Christianity as the problem
00:01:52here, and that's the way they branded it, and they took out all of the important keywords.
00:01:57So today, I wanted to have a podcast to talk about the most important one that they missed,
00:02:02which is radicalization.
00:02:04They did not really discuss the fact that this was a radicalized Christian.
00:02:09He was not – and I'm using the word Christian in air quotes, because if you understand what
00:02:16this is, this is deeply tied to the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:02:20It is tied directly to – I've got multiple news reports where it's tied directly to Christ
00:02:26for the Nations, which is the institute that, as we'll discuss today, it's the institute that
00:02:32exists because of William Branham.
00:02:34And things like IHOPKC would not exist without Christ for the Nations.
00:02:39This was the big deal.
00:02:41This was the organization.
00:02:43And so this guy was radicalized in this, and I'm reading – even right before I connected
00:02:48with you today, I was reading through some additional news reports where his hit list
00:02:53apparently included key Democrat figures.
00:02:58So those who are saying, no, this was a Democrat gone rogue, you can't really say that, because
00:03:02his hit list included several key figures, which we'll get into that some.
00:03:07But he's also making statements in sermons – he was a preacher – that is talking about
00:03:13deliverance ministry, which is something you and I talk about.
00:03:16And his agenda appears to be the very convergence of politics and Christianity that you and I
00:03:25have been discussing.
00:03:26So this is very relevant to what we're talking about.
00:03:28Anyway, I wanted to talk with you further and try to iron out, what is this mess that
00:03:34we're dealing with?
00:03:35Yeah, yeah.
00:03:36Well, the Christ for the Nations International – or the – what is it?
00:03:43Christ for the Nations Institute.
00:03:45That's a big piece of it.
00:03:46That's where he, like, went to school.
00:03:48So when I first heard about Vance Bolter and saw things pop up on my various feeds, I saw
00:04:00a clip of him preaching, and immediately I was like, man, this feels like NAR preaching.
00:04:07This feels like preaching that's very similar to a lot of the world that I grew up in.
00:04:13And so I kind of wanted to do a deep dive because I had this sort of suspicion that he would
00:04:18be connected with the NAR stream just by the way that he preached.
00:04:23And the first thing I did is listen to his sermons.
00:04:26I didn't, like, look up a lot of what everybody else was saying.
00:04:30I just found, you know, every sermon that I could, which he had spoken.
00:04:34I don't know if other people have found other sermons that he's spoken of, but there was
00:04:38three sermons that he, that I was able to find online where he was speaking in the Congo.
00:04:47And he, I believe it was the Congo, but he was, he was in Africa speaking to a French speaking
00:04:55population there so that it was being translated and everything like that.
00:04:59Um, and I listened through his like three different 45 hour long sermons that he had just to kind
00:05:08of pick out, Hey, what is the ideology of this individual?
00:05:11And like, even without looking at his background, he didn't say a bunch in these sermons.
00:05:18There were a lot of fluff, a lot of like, just saying a lot, but saying nothing.
00:05:24Um, but the things that he did say, um, that it was clear he was part of the new apostolic
00:05:33reformation.
00:05:33First of all, he talked about, um, the destruction of the American church and the division in the
00:05:38American church.
00:05:39And that was a huge thing for him that he talked about several different times where the American
00:05:43church was divided.
00:05:44Um, and the things that were dividing the American church that he pointed to were, um, issues of
00:05:53like gender and sexual orientation, people not even knowing what gender they are, um, and
00:06:01churches affirming, you know, uh, transgender ideologies.
00:06:06He didn't use the word transgender, but he, he used the word like they don't even know what
00:06:11gender they are in these churches.
00:06:13So he, he had some of that rhetoric and he said, abortion, he said, there's some churches
00:06:18out here who, who are supporting abortion.
00:06:21If you can believe that, you know, um, and those were sort of the two things that he talked
00:06:26about generally, um, dividing the church, which, you know, those are the two things that,
00:06:33that, and that's conservative Christianity.
00:06:36A lot of people actually agree on those, uh, a lot of conservative Christians would also
00:06:41take issue with, um, sexual orientation and abortion.
00:06:44So that doesn't narrow it down a ton.
00:06:46Of course, that's like Bob Jones.
00:06:48I remember Bob Jones talked about the two demons that would attack America and divide the church
00:06:54in America.
00:06:55And the two demons were homosexuality and abortion.
00:06:59Like I remember hearing that at a very young age.
00:07:01So, you know, it's not that in of itself, doesn't tie Vance to the new apostolic reformation
00:07:09specifically.
00:07:11Um, but it definitely overlaps with it.
00:07:15And, um, it definitely, there's definitely some similarities there.
00:07:19Um, but then he talked about what was going to heal the American church.
00:07:23And this is when you're like, okay, this man's definitely been radicalized by the new apostolic
00:07:28reformation where he talked about, um, gifts of the spirit that like healing and prophecy.
00:07:34And so he, he, he advocated for those different, um, supernatural gifts of the spirit, like, um,
00:07:42prophecy, healing tongues, all that.
00:07:44But then specifically he has a couple of lines in there about the prophets and apostles that
00:07:50God is raising up prophets and apostles who are going to heal the American church.
00:07:56And for you and for I, and for everyone who knows about the new apostolic reformation,
00:08:01that's a big light bulb of like, okay, talking about apostles and prophets.
00:08:05That's kind of the, the main first thing that the new apostolic reformation kind of adopted is
00:08:12this idea that God was raising up these mouthpieces, these prophetic individuals who
00:08:18are going to prophesy and apostles to like sort of lead the church where it was going to be
00:08:22disparate, but like still among the sort of same banner of people being led by the Holy Spirit and
00:08:28the whole non-denominational churches joining and like apostolic networks. And, you know, that's
00:08:34literally new apostolic reformation is in the title because this, this, uh, emphasis on this
00:08:41apostolic anointing is obviously very important in the NAR and clearly it was, uh, uh, uh,
00:08:50important to Bolter as well. Um, but then here, John is, is the crazy stuff and nobody's been
00:08:56reporting about this. Uh, so this is, this is, this is new information. Um, because I don't think
00:09:03many people know what he was talking about. The people who have like the journalists who have been
00:09:09listening to, um, his different sermons, this probably didn't perk up their ears, but it certainly
00:09:15did with me. And in two of the sermons that, um, Bolter gave, he spoke about, um, how his,
00:09:24um, mentor that he met a mentor at Christ for the Nations Institute. Um, and we can get back to,
00:09:30I would love to hear more about the history of Christ for the Nations Institute, because I think
00:09:35of that, like Bolter clearly went there and that's where he kind of got radicalized for Christianity.
00:09:40And that's sort of like very important. Um, so we can get back to that, but at, uh,
00:09:47Christ for the Nations Institute, he met this guy, which he doesn't name in one in his first sermon
00:09:54I listened to, but he talked about him and he talked about how he was deeply influential, uh, on Bolter
00:10:00and how he was a part of a missions commune in Zimbabwe where 16 people, he says 17, but it's 16,
00:10:1216 people were killed, um, with a machete, um, on this farm. And it was extremely like he, he references
00:10:21how it was like this very, um, defining moment for his life and, um, how it was an incredible, um,
00:10:31like horror, horrific incident that happened where he had his mentor die, uh, out in Zimbabwe on this
00:10:38commune. Um, and when he said it, my ears perked up because John, my parents were on that commune.
00:10:45I made a promise to God when I was a young Christian in school, I went to college and I met a believer
00:10:51who discipled me and taught me much about Jesus. His name was David Emerson. About a year later after
00:11:00I had met him, he told me he was so excited. He said, I'm going to Africa. I'm going with the
00:11:06ministry and we're going to dig wells for people because they need good water and then we'll share
00:11:12the gospel. And I remember the summer he left for Africa. He stopped by to see me in my hometown
00:11:18to see me one more time before he left. And I felt I should get him to pray for me and bless me.
00:11:25He went to Africa. It was in Zimbabwe. He sent me letters. He was engaged. He was so excited about
00:11:34God and the gospel. A short time later, people didn't want them in the area. So they lied about
00:11:41them and they said they were communists. And my friend didn't believe in guards or security
00:11:46because he said, if somebody comes and they don't know God and they get killed by security,
00:11:51they're lost. People came to their farm site where they were living and they didn't want to use guns
00:11:58because guns were too loud. So they came with machetes and they killed everybody. My friend,
00:12:05his fiance and about 16 other people, only two children survived that hit. They called it the
00:12:12new Adams farm massacre. I didn't know for sure. I had, I was like, man, are there, was it a different
00:12:17one? But then I looked it up and then in his second sermon, he talked about this. He, he talked
00:12:23about it way more specifically. He named the man named David Emerson, um, who was on this farm,
00:12:29who was in fact, someone who was, was macheted to death, um, as a part of, um, this massacre that
00:12:37happened. Um, and, uh, the new Adams farm was it was sure enough. It was that one, which the new Adams
00:12:46farm was a commune. It's super weird. There's a lot of like question marks that I have, it's been on my
00:12:53sort of investigation list for a really long time because it's really confusing all what was going
00:13:01on there in the Ernie Gruen report. So for people who don't know what the Ernie Gruen report is, there
00:13:06was, uh, in the early nineties, there was a man, a pastor named Ernie Gruen who criticized, um,
00:13:13Mike Bickle and Bob Jones and Paul Kane and some of the early Kansas city prophets for teaching
00:13:20heretical practices, having abusive, um, practices and all this sort of stuff. And he got this entire
00:13:27book together that went over the offenses of what, um, this Casey can't, because it was before what
00:13:36IHOP was, but this Kansas city fellowship, um, it criticized Kansas city fellowship for all of these
00:13:42different things that it was doing. And one of the things that it criticized Kansas city fellowship
00:13:46for was funding the new Adams farm. And there was a letter by some, uh, by a pastor in Zimbabwe who
00:13:55was like, really, he, he, um, talked about how KCF was, was funding, um, like bought the, the land that
00:14:05the new Adams farm was on, um, and that he was, uh, this pastor was really worried because he
00:14:12originally was like trying, he had someone who was living on that farm. Um, and he was trying to
00:14:18contact them and family were trying to contact them. And, and, um, the new Adams farm was like,
00:14:24um, which was basically just a commune where people were working and interceding for the nations.
00:14:30Um, which is obviously very typical IHOP stuff. Um, they were starting to get isolated. The community
00:14:40was getting isolated, like information that was being sent in letters that were being sent in were
00:14:44being like read and, and, um, being sort of filtered by the leadership on the new Adams farm. And this was
00:14:53before everyone, before the massacre happened. Um, and this pastor was concerned about, and then
00:15:00fortunately this pastor's friend who was on the new Adams farm was able to leave and they were able to
00:15:06leave safely before the massacre happened. But, um, just a bunch of big questions about what was going
00:15:13on on that farm. And I know of this farm because my, like I said, my parents went to this farm before,
00:15:21this was before I was born, but, um, just before the massacre happened, I mean, literally six months
00:15:26before the massacre happened, they went out there and they planned to be out there for several years,
00:15:32but their visas were denied and they had to return, uh, to the States. They actually went to Israel first
00:15:39and then they returned to the United States. Um, and their idea was maybe to go back, but my dad was,
00:15:46my dad specifically was wanting to go out there because, um, at the early stages of KCF, um,
00:15:56when IHOP was like proto IHOP days, when it was all being formed, there was a big infant emphasis on
00:16:04communal living and it was going to look more typical to like what people think cults look like where
00:16:10isolated communal living, where everybody sort of, um, um, feeds all of their money back into the one
00:16:18individual and jobs are distributed amongst the people and they kind of are self-sustaining and
00:16:24all that sort of stuff. So my dad went out there with my mom wanting to learn about communal living
00:16:30to then bring that back and, and set up a farm in the United States, um, with this sort of like
00:16:39similar sort of independent ecosystem that was going to be under the banner of like Kansas City
00:16:45fellowship. Um, and that was the idea of why he got sent out there and why they were going to be out
00:16:51there. Um, and, and then their visas were denied and they had to return back to the United States. And
00:16:57then basically what happened was there were local dissidents and it's unclear the political
00:17:02reasons, but basically local dissidents came in and, uh, killed, um, those who were on there
00:17:11because they were worried, you know, South Africa apartheid was going on or had just apartheid, I think
00:17:18was at its height during this time. It might've just been towards the tail end of it, but they were
00:17:23worried that like these white farmers were going to like come in and take over Zimbabwe. At least that's
00:17:29the political motivations that, um, I had been explained. Um, so anyway, this is the new Adams
00:17:37farm. This is what this man is talking about. And David Emerson was one of the only, you know, 16
00:17:43members of the farm there. Um, and like, I was talking with my mom just recently about like, this is
00:17:51it, you know, the, this is the same place. And she was like, yeah, this is the same place that I was at.
00:17:56And so this was like a deeply embedded, uh, uh, commune that was like deeply associated with the
00:18:04NAR and, uh, Paul Kane and, uh, Bob Jones. And obviously Mike Bickle, like it was literally funded
00:18:11by KCF, uh, Kansas city fellowship. And the fact that Vance Bolter is now, he never went to that farm,
00:18:21of course, but he, his spiritual mentor was one of the members of the farm and that he was like
00:18:28continually referencing this event. Like you have to be deeply tied with this sort of movement to know
00:18:35that phrase. And that's why people aren't talking about it. Like if you looked up the new Adams farm
00:18:43right now in Google, I doubt that you're going to have any, uh, articles, um, linking to Vance
00:18:50Bolter because not many people are going to make that connection. And the only reason I make that
00:18:56connection is because I also grew up deeply embedded into the new apostolic reformation. And it's wild to
00:19:03me that this assassin is like one step removed from my parents is like talking about someone who was on
00:19:14the same farm that my parents were on that, like, this wasn't a big commune. This wasn't hundreds,
00:19:18uh, or thousands of people. This was like 10, 20 people who were on this farm. And, um, the fact
00:19:26that like Bolter, um, was referencing that was just like, yeah, no, this person was embedded
00:19:33into the NAR movement. And, um, you know, I think that we can talk about all of the implications of
00:19:42that, but I've been talking for a bit, so I want to see if you want to jump in here and say anything.
00:19:48I have so much to say, man. So before I do, I want to clear the political air. I've mentioned several
00:19:54times, I will reiterate, I am not a fan of politics in America. I, I'm not a fan of what this mess is.
00:20:02I'm not for the left. I'm not for the right. I could care less about both parties. I think they
00:20:06should get rid of all of them and get some good people in there in Washington. So that's my
00:20:12political opinion and everything else that I say, remember that statement. So whenever Dr. Hassan and
00:20:19I, uh, did the, the little brief summary of our combination of thoughts that I put out,
00:20:25I scanned through the comments and you could really clearly tell those who were arguing just
00:20:33for the sake of being on the left and those were arguing who are just for the sake of being on the
00:20:38right. Yeah. Because it's, it's weird when I read it because they argue without having any substance
00:20:45behind the argument. One of the arguments made was that the, the person, whether he did it or not,
00:20:53you know, the government will decide this, but whether Bolter actually committed the crime,
00:20:58they said that he could not have been a Trump supporter because he was appointed to, what was
00:21:04it called? The Minnesota governor's workforce development, um, by Tim Waltz basically. So
00:21:11that's, that's a Democrat, right? Right. But they failed to mention or they failed to read and
00:21:17gather all the information. Waltz was also on his hit list. So it appears if you follow that out to
00:21:27its logical conclusion, he had planted himself into the democratic party for the sole purpose of
00:21:32getting to these people and understanding more about how it works. The inner workings there,
00:21:38there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye. And with that, from what I understood too,
00:21:43is that, that he was appointed to a bipartisan board. I believe the board that he was a part of
00:21:50was a bipartisan board where like, you know, especially in, in, if you are a democratic Senator
00:21:56of, um, Minnesota, Minnesota is like a purple state, you know, it's not a blue or red, like it goes back
00:22:06and forth and like growing up in Missouri and Kansas. And, you know, if, if you are a democratic
00:22:12governor or, or Senator or something like that, you have a lot of constituents who are Republicans.
00:22:19So you like establish a lot of boards that have a mix of Democrats and Republican, you just don't
00:22:24put in everybody who thinks and acts exactly like you. So it, I mean, had it been flipped and vice
00:22:31versa and had it been a Republican Senator, I would also be like that, that doesn't, that doesn't
00:22:38mean anything either. Like people are getting so, it, they need it to be one ideology or the other.
00:22:46But here's the complicated thing about people is that like, but you know, I grew up in the NAR and
00:22:53like the NAR clearly aligns with like a lot of Republican, especially like Trump sort of rhetoric.
00:23:00And we, we, you know, we have the Lance Wallnaus and individuals who are like super pro Trump.
00:23:07I also went to YWAM and at YWAM, there was a lot of people who were not on the typical red,
00:23:14blue, democratic Republican spectrum because they were international. And like Bolter was an
00:23:20individual who was going internationally a lot. And like this simple narrative of red versus
00:23:28blue is so stupid is so I I'm, I'm so upset by this, John, because it's just like, it's,
00:23:37it's making conversations about very real and very important things. Like what is happening right now
00:23:44become absolutely asinine because it isn't, it isn't as clear cut as this. And if it is clear cut,
00:23:51like in this particular situation, like he clearly was part of the NAR. Did he have some democratic
00:23:59leanings? He could have, he could have also not, he could have been like a card carrying Trump
00:24:04supporter. And it seems like he probably was in some regards, but like, even that it doesn't,
00:24:10people within your group and your organization can do really bad things. And if you are like,
00:24:19I, you know, I, I lean definitely as people have probably already told, like I, I definitely lean
00:24:24left and like, I'm, you know, I'm a huge supporter of unions and stuff like that. And so like,
00:24:31but I know for a fact, there's a lot of people who are in the same political boat as me who do
00:24:36horrible, terrible things. And like when they do, it's not, oh, let's find a way of repainting this
00:24:43figure and putting him in this other category or talk about, oh, well, it must've been a Republican
00:24:51operative who is appearing to be democratic for this thing or not. Like, it's to analyze,
00:25:00you have to be sort of like, you have to be willing to understand the flaws and faults of people within
00:25:06your community. And especially if you want to better your community. So we're talking about
00:25:11the new apostolic reformation and we're talking about, um, you know, right-wing politics and some
00:25:18of these, um, you know, Christian nationalists. And like, we're speaking to a lot of Christians,
00:25:23like a lot of our audience are Christian. A lot of our audience is probably Republican.
00:25:28And what this is, is to like identify what are the beliefs and what are the systems of beliefs
00:25:36and what are the networks that are causing these sort of violent, um, upbringings, whether it's
00:25:43sexual violence, which is obviously what we've been talking about at the international house of prayer
00:25:47for a really long time, or whether it's talking about political violence, which now we're talking
00:25:52about with Vance Bolter. Like we have to identify what were the beliefs, what were the, um, missteps
00:26:01that this man made and the community made that helped incite this sort of political violence.
00:26:07Um, and you have to be able to put on your, put on your big boy pants and recognize that like,
00:26:13okay, this, this, it might have to do with some beliefs that you also hold. You might have to look
00:26:18at it and be like, okay, he might share some political beliefs with, and you have to like look
00:26:24in the mirror and be like, okay, well, where did it go wrong? Are there, do I need to challenge
00:26:28some of my own beliefs or do I need to challenge my own community to be better about these sort of
00:26:33things? So yeah, the, the absolute insane propaganda that has been going on to disrupt and paint this
00:26:42guy this way. And then if it, you know, or pretend like he's a patsy for this and like, obviously we
00:26:49don't know totally what was going on. Maybe there's some grand conspiracy behind it, but of this
00:26:54information that we have, like we have to deal with what it appears to be reality. And people just
00:27:02frankly are, are trying their best to warp reality, to fit their agendas. And it's, it's really deeply
00:27:08troubling to me.
00:27:10Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
00:27:15Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new
00:27:21apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's website,
00:27:28william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of
00:27:34John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,
00:27:41audio and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various
00:27:48people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can
00:27:54support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like
00:28:00and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of
00:28:05William Branham historical research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:28:08So I lean neither left nor right. I lean backwards because I want to know the history. So I lean
00:28:18backwards. I want to know if something is going to affect me in the future. I want to know its
00:28:25history, its past. Does it have a good track record? And that's what scares the heck out of me whenever I
00:28:32see what is happening today. So another point that was made in the comments, and I found it
00:28:38kind of funny because a lot of people who are commenting, I think, don't really know how the
00:28:43government works. And the sad truth is, if you read some of the press releases or statements made
00:28:49on Twitter by the current sitting president, even the current sitting president does not know how the
00:28:54government works. So we're in this weird place in America where all of the structure that has been built
00:29:02for all of these centuries, they're just completely abandoning all of that because they don't understand
00:29:10how democracy should work. It's a government by the people, for the people, etc. So ignoring all of that,
00:29:18and just looking at the history, the history is what scares me. Because, you know, while you could say
00:29:24that even using the NAR, while you could say this man was connected to the NAR and he did this
00:29:32horrific thing, that's not even really the true essence of what has happened here. What we're
00:29:38witnessing is actually a result of the history. We're witnessing radicalization because of this
00:29:45merging of Christianity and politics. So let me give a – I tried to do this in the little segment that I did
00:29:53with Dr. Hassan, but let me go a bit deeper with the convergence of politics and religion,
00:30:01Christianity, that developed into what became Christ for the Nations. Because I think a lot of
00:30:07people just don't really understand how powerful this is and how connected that is to the New Apostolic
00:30:12Reformation. In fact, one commenter said, I was at CFNI. Is it connected to the NAR? And, like,
00:30:19I want to respond to that, but that little tiny comment thread doesn't let me adequately describe.
00:30:27It's not just that it's connected. It is the very foundation that the NAR was built upon. It's that
00:30:35big. So let me take a step back. Let's talk through the history here. William Branham was mentored by – we've
00:30:43talked about this before – the second in command of the Klan, who the Klan was under complete scrutiny by
00:30:51the government, by the media. The original Klan – the second to tip at the Klan, I should say – the 1915
00:31:00Klan was disbanded because of all of the scrutiny, and many of the leaders were cast out, overthrown.
00:31:06The Indiana Klan became the head organization, and Branham's mentor came to Indiana, and he was
00:31:15actually trying to invade that sect. Indiana also was well known for its Pentecostal base. You had
00:31:24respected Pentecostal leaders in Indianapolis. So you had all of this mixture of weird religion and
00:31:30politics. And they were trying to invade Pentecostalism at the point in time in which the UPC was
00:31:37beginning to form and shape itself. And that's why you see Branham is touring with all of these big
00:31:42leaders that were the – what became leaders of the original United Pentecostal Church. In fact,
00:31:49Branham edited a newsletter by – I think it's called the PCI, the Pentecostal Corporation, whatever that is.
00:31:57You can go look it up. He was involved in that newsletter. That was one of the organizations
00:32:02that was coming together with this. Well, at the time that – and it wasn't just Pentecostalism. I'm
00:32:09not targeting that by no means. That's just the vehicle that was moving this forward. So in this
00:32:15vehicle of religion, which was very fundamentalist religion, they're mixing white supremacy notions
00:32:23and Pentecostalism, fundamentalist Christianity. They're trying to brand it as not Pentecostal,
00:32:30but a broader base. Everybody's welcome as long as you believe our fundamentalist version of
00:32:35Christianity. Well, at the same time that is being developed, you also have in the United States
00:32:42Christian identity, which was the notion that the United States should be treated as its own Christian
00:32:52domain. We need to take control of this because we are the descendants of the Lost Ten Tribes of
00:32:58Israel. That was actually a doctrine back then. As that mixed with racism, they started to say our
00:33:05kingdom has been overthrown by the ones who aren't of the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel. We need to take it
00:33:12back. We need to take control back. Much like you see in today's politics where they want to claim
00:33:17dominion over the United States, they were doing it back then. And this exploded in the early 40s,
00:33:25because Franklin Delano Roosevelt, they felt, was leading America into a way in which they would lose
00:33:33control completely and was bringing in liberal Christianity, etc. So they fought all the harder
00:33:40to invade politics. So what we're seeing today with the merging of Christianity and politics,
00:33:45it's almost to the same level, but not yet quite as what it was in the 40s.
00:33:52Gordon Lindsay, the founder of Christ for the Nations, was deeply embedded into this Christian
00:33:57identity doctrine. And this, make no mistake, was a very, very racist doctrine. They believed that
00:34:04Eve had mated with the serpent in the Garden of Eden, and that produced Cain, which was, they believed,
00:34:11the evil bloodline. And that lineage could be traced through Ham, which back then, many of the scholars
00:34:19believed to be people with black skin in Africa. So that has now entered into Christianity. Gordon Lindsay
00:34:27is speaking at key conferences for big, big organizations in Christian identity. Right after
00:34:36all of this is happening, you have this explosion of latter rain where William Branham suddenly gets
00:34:42lifted into popularity. He gets connected to Gordon Lindsay. Gordon Lindsay and Branham formed this union
00:34:49where, wherein Lindsay becomes Branham's campaign manager. And Branham took the name of the column
00:34:57that he was writing in the Pentecostal organization, which was called, I think, America's Voice for
00:35:03Healing, or The Voice for Healing, something like this. They created an entire newsletter called The
00:35:08Voice of Healing to promote Branham campaigns. Lindsay was a mastermind in how to make this grow
00:35:15exponentially. So he turned this into a pyramid scheme where he and Branham were at the top. Branham was
00:35:22the editor, or the publisher, I think, and he was assistant editor, something like this.
00:35:28This went on until Branham got so busy and popular in the latter rain movement, he did not have time to
00:35:34edit, publish. Gordon Lindsay took that over. And Lindsay created a pyramid scheme, wherein
00:35:41many, numerous, I've lost count, it's probably in the thousands of apostles, prophets, evangelists,
00:35:47all of that structure. Now you have an organization where you can come together under this.
00:35:54And it's called interdenominational. So what we have is a network wherein you can be any
00:36:01denomination of faith except Catholic, basically. And if you're not a Catholic and you join us,
00:36:07and you, I don't know what happened under, if they were passing money under the table or what,
00:36:12but there was clearly a structure where some were preferred over others. And once you got in that
00:36:19structure, man, your ministry, you were guaranteed a ministry, basically. And it created what was,
00:36:26what later developed into what is called the Apostolic Networks of the New Apostolic Reformation.
00:36:31It caused this reformation that gave it that, that C. Peter Wagner gave it that name, right?
00:36:38Well, that entity, that organization, after a period of time, and especially after Branham died, this,
00:36:46this turned into something different. But at over time, as this thing is growing,
00:36:52it transitions into the Christ for the Nations Institute. Branham and Lindsay were holding deliverance
00:36:58conferences, where they were teaching how to cast out demons, or whatever is the nonsense that they
00:37:04claimed. And you could come to this and be trained. And that became the Christ for the Nations Institute
00:37:10school. So, whenever it said, whenever the news media says that this assassin had went to Christ for
00:37:17the Nations school, he was going to the thing that Branham and Lindsay had created.
00:37:21Darrell Bock Yeah. I think that, man, I love, I love talking to you about this,
00:37:26because you obviously are so knowledgeable about it. And I've had conversations with people who,
00:37:33like, deny the NAR's existence, and are like, no, it's not a thing. And we, you know,
00:37:39obviously, it's always hard, because I'm like, I literally grew up in it. So it's hard to say
00:37:45it doesn't exist. And like all of the major leaders, here's my test to know whether or not
00:37:53something is a part of the NAR is, did I go and stay at that person's house while traveling with
00:37:59my dad? Like, that's a good, that's a good indication for me. Obviously, that's not the
00:38:05best category for it. But like Heidi Baker, Bill Johnson, you know, Lou Engel, Paul Kane. Well,
00:38:15I didn't stay at Paul Kane's house, but Paul Kane was at my house. So that, you know, Bob Jones,
00:38:20all of these individuals, like, it's so funny when people are like, oh, it's not real. And it's like,
00:38:24I literally saw us all interact. And my dad would talk about prophetic round tables where all of
00:38:32these dudes were meeting. And it's like, literally all the usual suspects. But one thing that I think
00:38:38that people stumble on is that, like, Wagner obviously was very important in naming the New
00:38:44Apostolic Reformation. But like, people look at Wagner as the father of the movement, which he was not the
00:38:52father of the movement. No, but he was, he named it and helps like under, you know, gave us the New
00:38:59Apostolic Reformation name. And he wrote about it in more like academic senses. But this movement really
00:39:07was started by Branham and Lindsay, and they paved the way for the whole NAR movement. And so when you
00:39:17look at the Christ for the Nations Institute, I mean, it's really like, I liked what you said where
00:39:23like, this was not just a part of the New Apostolic Reformation. This was really the heartbeat,
00:39:31the epicenter of where it began. And so like the fact that, you know, it's not a coincidence that
00:39:37Bolter was connected with like, the roots of some of the most like, frankly, violent
00:39:45form of Christian nationalism that we've had in American history, that helped birth the New
00:39:55Apostolic Reformation movement. Like, it's not just the coincidence that he was involved in it. I
00:39:59think it's crazy, John, that like, and people can see this. Well, you and I were talking about
00:40:05militarism and militaristic language. I think it was like two podcast episodes ago, maybe,
00:40:13maybe three, um, where we were literally talking because, because we were talking about, um,
00:40:19Lance Wall now and, and, and dominionism and, and why we am into Christian dominionism and how I was
00:40:25like, this is a dangerous thing. And if you don't want it to be dangerous, stop using violent political
00:40:33language. Like, and we, we literally were talking about this a week before, or, you know, a month before,
00:40:40um, someone who's deeply connected with the same movement we're talking about literally goes and
00:40:48assassinates a political figure in American, uh, politics or two political figures and their
00:40:54spouses. Um, I mean, four people were killed because of this man. And he had a list, like he said, of
00:40:5920 something, or I can't, I, I can't remember if it was 20 or 50 or, uh, but you know, had obviously a
00:41:06list of like, he thought that he was going to go and purge, you know, these Jezebel spirit
00:41:14individuals. So, you know, like, it's so funny because I don't, I don't want to put words in his
00:41:19mouth. Like, I don't, I don't know what his manifesto or whatever was. Um, they've like clearly not
00:41:25released that. Um, but I, it's not hard for me to imagine what rhetoric he could be using because
00:41:34it's literally the rhetoric that I grew up with. And I know people were pushing back, even in like
00:41:40our comments, people were pushing, pushing back. Uh, maybe it wasn't our comments, but maybe it was
00:41:45something else that I posted on my Twitter or something. But I remember people pushing back
00:41:49about militaristic language and being like, Oh, just everyone does it. That's just like, that's how
00:41:55the new Testament talks this way. And it's like, you know, it doesn't, that's not what like, this is
00:42:03very, a very specific brand of Christianity. And like, we, yes, it's been normalized. And especially
00:42:09if you grew up in the new apostolic reformation or sort of auxiliary, um, Pentecostal communities,
00:42:17um, you have heard the terms of spiritual warfare and become so inundated in the terms of spiritual
00:42:26warfare that you forget that it is warfare. Like it's talk, you know, it talked about like it's
00:42:33warfare. I'm like, um, I know that people talk about abortion. Like, um, it is, you know, a genocide
00:42:39that is happening in the, uh, in the United States. And, um, there's, you know, people who are
00:42:47talking about, um, the fighting against the Babylon spirit, um, or fighting against the, the, um,
00:42:55Jezebel spirit that has taken over. I mean, Lou Engel talks super extremely, um, uh, militaristically
00:43:03about this. And, and it's always couched in very political and now explicitly political terms with,
00:43:11with, um, Trump and whatnot, where it's like, there's a good, a good team and there's a bad team.
00:43:17And this bad team is trying to divide the American church and is trying to corrupt and destroy and,
00:43:24uh, rip out the moral epicenter of, of the United States. And we need to fight against it. We need to
00:43:32take back what is ours. We need to, um, contend with the heavens and, and bring it down to earth.
00:43:38And we need to invade every sphere of society. And like, maybe if someone's preaching that,
00:43:44maybe you have an audience of 5,000 people who, you know, let's say 99% are just thinking spiritual,
00:43:52um, terms that it's just purely spiritual, purely spiritual warfare. They're not thinking
00:43:59literal warfare. Well, even if you have 1% of that group, who's like, okay, but let's just
00:44:07translate, like, let's take this literally. Let's take the things that they're saying that we need
00:44:10to fight back. We need to invade, right? We need to, um, have warfare. I mean, 1% of, uh, of 5,000
00:44:20people, a congregation of 5,000 people, that's 50 people who are in their heads thinking about the
00:44:25violent sort of, let's take it back. I, and I know people are going to push back on this.
00:44:32Maybe not in our audience, because I think that people who have been listening to you and, and I
00:44:37understand, uh, because like, if you've been paying attention to the sexual violence, that's been
00:44:43excused in the new apostolic reformation community. Um, it's not as crazy to think that it would spur
00:44:50political violence. And that's, that's exactly what happened. John is like, when I grew up hearing
00:44:57all of this language that felt very spiritual and metaphorical, only to find out that the leaders of
00:45:04the community were using that language literally to sexually abuse individuals in their community.
00:45:12Like they were, they weren't talking about it metaphorically. They were, they were using it.
00:45:16Like Mike Bickle use literal prophecies about the death of his wife to like manipulate and groom
00:45:21young teenagers to be in a relationship with him or coerced, you know, to, to abuse them.
00:45:27So like, we've seen that transition of like radical language, that's radical spiritual language
00:45:33become radical abusive language and radical violent language. And so it is not at all surprising to me
00:45:43that there's people who are taking that radical language and, and using it to condone the sort of
00:45:51radical violent tendencies and desires that they have. Um, and again, I don't know the psychology of
00:46:01Bolter, but I know the language that he was using. And I know that he, at least to some extent felt
00:46:08this permission to pursue these sort of violent tendencies based off of the violent rhetoric of
00:46:15the community that he, um, was, was radicalized in. We literally that he became a radical Christian in
00:46:23was this new weapon. He even said that himself in one of his messages, he talks about how he was a
00:46:30Christian before he sort of met this community and, or he, he talks about how he was like culturally
00:46:38Christian and that he went to church and he kind of read his Bible, but he didn't become on fire for
00:46:44the Lord. He didn't become radicalized until his sort of new apostolic reformation meeting where he went
00:46:53to Christ for the nations Institute. And he talked with David Emerson, the, the, the individual who was on
00:46:59the, um, new Adams farm in Zimbabwe. That was the instance in which he started to become radicalized.
00:47:07The problem that we have today is that, and you can see it clearly in the comments when people have
00:47:13become radicalized, they cannot process and understand what is radicalization because they've
00:47:20become radicalized and the similarities again, back to what created Christ for the nations. It's
00:47:27unbelievable if you think about it. So back in the forties, as this was developing into a climax,
00:47:34which happened in around 1944, 1945, people were becoming radicalized just like they were today.
00:47:41Yeah. The Christian identity leaders were talking about how the United States had become overrun by
00:47:47these. This is an offensive word, but that's what they believe. They believe that these were mongrels,
00:47:52that these mongrels had come in basically whoever was not of our Christian identity mindset in the
00:47:59cult's mind. It's us versus them in Christian identity. That's exactly what this was. You had
00:48:04anybody who is in government who did not believe with your religious ideology, which happened to be
00:48:10Christian identity. And back then the big things were basically, uh, so evolution was one of the
00:48:18things like today. The homosexual issue is the number one political issue. Back then it was more
00:48:24about evolution. The scopes trial. All of this is linked to the same history. Well, what happened is
00:48:31because the churches and many political organizations were inciting violence against the government,
00:48:40they wanted to claim dominion against the government. They wanted to take back control. They were doing the
00:48:46same exact thing they're doing today. That's actually a, in, in law, that's a felony. You cannot incite
00:48:53violence or you cannot, you cannot incite people to rebel against the authority of the state leadership.
00:49:00Right. But the problem was it became so widespread. What do you do about this? Right. You basically
00:49:07have this wide swath where a majority of the nation has ministers who are preaching against the
00:49:13government. And this turned into a huge problem. Well, in 19, I think it was 1944, this developed
00:49:21into what became called the great sedition trial of 1944. Key figures who are tied to Branimism were
00:49:27involved in this thing and they were Christian identity leaders. They were trying to, the Fuller
00:49:33Institute where C. Peter Wagner came out of, Charles Fuller was working directly with one of the guys tied to
00:49:40this great sedition trial. One of the key figures who's promoting the most violence against the
00:49:46government. One of the most outspoken ones. So this is no different than what we see today. And oddly,
00:49:54we're in the same exact scenario. You have so many ministers who are speaking of sedition. They are
00:50:02literally wanting to overthrow the authority of the government, which is a felony. And there's so many
00:50:08of them that the government can't stop them. Where do you stop? How do you stop this? You stop one,
00:50:13you have this big outcry, right? So we're in the same exact scenario that we had back in the 1940s.
00:50:20The issues are all different, but the setup for the issues is the same. The irony is that the
00:50:27organizations and institutes that are causing what we see today came from the same, they descended from
00:50:35that same tree. So that's where this gets really weird because it's as though this threat against
00:50:41the United States, it preexisted back in the 40s. Well, now it is coming back again like a snake to
00:50:48bite the government's head. It's coming back again, just in a completely different form.
00:50:54Because it's so, like you said, because it's so widespread, it's like, what do we do about it? And
00:50:59because it's not a denomination, right? You know, you can't, you can't be like, hey, this is
00:51:08this particular swath and denomination is like preaching this thing. We can kind of like target
00:51:18that and try to have reformation, whether it be through even like you and I talking,
00:51:25like we, we can't call out like, um, what's the big assemblies of God? Like if, if assemblies of God,
00:51:33that's a denomination. And if like all of this was stemming from assemblies of God community,
00:51:39and so, you know, there was just a shooter who is an assemblies of God shooter or whatever,
00:51:44we could kind of go to the denomination and we could kind of call out the structure and leadership
00:51:49there to have sort of this accountability to, um, change their language and to be accountable for
00:52:00the sort of violent rhetoric and that they're sharing. And there, there would be systems of
00:52:05accountability, whether or not that would happen. I don't, you know, it's not like it's
00:52:09straightforward and easy to sort of solve these problems. But I mean, this is what happened when,
00:52:15when, when I was, I saw this happen with my dad, when my dad was, you know,
00:52:22a appointed minister by all of these different, uh, ministries, um, Bethel and the International
00:52:32House of Prayer and, and, um, Morningstar in particular, um, and Bill Johnson, uh, Mike Bickle and,
00:52:39and, um, um, um, Rick Joyner respectively. Um, when my dad was, was kind of falling off,
00:52:50really going crazy and, and starting to abuse people and, and sexually abuse individuals,
00:52:55which I've talked about that story before on here. Um, and I was calling these leaders and,
00:53:01and being like, Hey, don't let this individual come to your campus. Don't let them, you know,
00:53:07speak out against them. And, and, and my dad was a prophetic fraud. And like, you need to
00:53:13tell people and warn people because like, my dad is still coasting off of the, the, um,
00:53:18sort of authority that you gave him. The answer was incredibly similar across the board. And it was
00:53:24like, we don't have anything to do with him. We don't have any authority over him. Like, sure.
00:53:28He shared our plot platform, but a lot of people shared our platform, like, you know,
00:53:33almost like Bob Hartley, who, who's Bob Hartley as if I hadn't just met with them, you know,
00:53:39weeks previously or months previously with, with my dad and seen them, my dad minister to them. Um,
00:53:47but it was this sort of like, your dad is accountable to himself and to himself alone
00:53:52because the new apostolic reformation is this sort of interdenominational or non-denominational
00:53:58collection of all of these Kings and their various castles and all of the, the, these
00:54:04leaders of their mini cult franchises. Um, there isn't a way to keep it accountable. So like,
00:54:13do you think Bill Johnson is going to see what Vance Bolter did and see that Vance Bolter was
00:54:20connected to, um, Christ for the nations Institute? And do you think Bill Johnson is going to be like,
00:54:27Hey, when I talked about invading, um, earth and invading, you know, the seven mountains of
00:54:34society, um, this is not what I meant. Um, this, I, I want to be very clear that it shouldn't be
00:54:41political and like, we need to be careful. Do you think Bill Johnson's going to say that?
00:54:47Absolutely not. Zero is like literally zero chance that he takes any sense of accountability,
00:54:52even though he is on, uh, Christ for the nations Institute's webpage, like he is there.
00:55:00He's a speaker there and they give material there. And Heidi Baker is this, you know,
00:55:05you scroll to the bottom and it's like, Oh, look, who's the here, the usual special suspects of,
00:55:10of Bill Johnson and the Heidi Baker and all of these. And do you think that they're going to,
00:55:15they're going to pretend like it's disconnected. They're going to pretend like, Oh, this individual,
00:55:20uh, we don't have any idea who he is. Vance Bolter, like, Oh, maybe he was a part of it,
00:55:26but he, this has nothing to do with us. And I doubt they'll even acknowledge it. I doubt that
00:55:31anyone will even say anything. I doubt see, um, CFNI will the Christ for the nations Institute.
00:55:39I doubt they will ever say anything about it because it's just like, there's zero sense of
00:55:44accountability. And frankly, the media doesn't know how to address it because they don't understand
00:55:52the nuances of these political or these, uh, religious groups because Christian denominationalism
00:55:59is like so complicated. Like when I talk about what the difference between the neo charismatic
00:56:05movement versus the Pentecostal movement versus the evangelical movement. And I talk to someone who's
00:56:12not, maybe they're like, you know, Orthodox Christianity or they're non-Christian or they're
00:56:18Catholic or something like that. Their eyes gloss over because they're just like, uh, I don't
00:56:24give a shit about all of these different denominations and I don't care. And this is all kind of the same
00:56:30thing and it's all these nutty Christians. And it's like, so they, so Bolter will be branded as a conservative
00:56:41Christian rather than branding him for what he is, which is a new apostolic reformation Christian.
00:56:49Uh, and so it kind of leads into the whole new apostolic reformation movement.
00:56:55It, they kind of get off scot-free because they don't, there's not going to be specific
00:57:00accountability. No one's going to look up the new Adams farm and make the connection. Nobody at CNN
00:57:06is going to be like, huh, what was this? And what group was he affiliated with? I mean,
00:57:10maybe some people will or won't, but also there's so much violence going on now, you know, two months
00:57:17from now, maybe this won't even be a political issue. But for me, man, this is just, I mean,
00:57:24we literally were talking about all of these things, John. We, Christ for the Nations Institute,
00:57:29guess what it also is. I'm sorry. I'm, I'm being a terrible podcast, um, dialogue individual,
00:57:36because I'm just monologuing here, but final point before, but, um, Christ for the Nations Institute
00:57:43is literally a diploma mill. Like it isn't accredited. And we were just talking about this.
00:57:49Now it's a little bit different. It's in the sort of same vein as like, um, Bethel, Bethel
00:57:55supernatural school and ministry and IHOPs, you former, and like YWAM, all of these where they're
00:58:01not necessarily pretending to be like a conventional institution as much, um, where it's like, we don't
00:58:09even want to claim we're accredited. Fortunately, they don't say that they're accredited. And then
00:58:13it's Lance Wallnau who accredits them, you know, um, or maybe they do. I don't know. But like,
00:58:18I was looking at it and I was reading about Christ for the Nations Institute and they specifically are
00:58:23like, we're not accredited. We're not pursuing accreditation. Um, and we have like crossover.
00:58:29And they were like, if you go to YWAM, you can transfer your credits. And they have different
00:58:35like partnerships with Oral Roberts University and stuff like that. But, uh, I mean, we were
00:58:41literally talking about all of these things. We were talking about Christian nationalism. We were
00:58:45talking about, you know, the violent rhetoric of Christian nationalism and how, especially, um,
00:58:52that's been used. Like we were talking about, um, Uganda and, and the, the Paul, the, um,
00:59:00how people who they were going to establish laws in Uganda, that was going to criminalize homosexuality.
00:59:07And there was going to be violence perpetuated very much using the rhetoric of Christian and like
00:59:13Christian missionaries from the international house of prayer who went to Uganda were like,
00:59:18had a definitive impact on sort of this, uh, movement to criminalize homosexuality in Uganda.
00:59:26And like how that can become very quickly and very easily violent. And then you have all these people
00:59:31push, push up their hands and be like, oh, that's not what we were talking about. This isn't,
00:59:37this isn't what we were saying, but you have people like me and you who are like, well, then don't use violent language.
00:59:42Don't talk militaristically. Don't talk about invading. Don't talk about warfare. Don't talk about,
00:59:50you know, the, the Jezebel, casting out the Jezebel spirit and, and using very like violent imagery to do
00:59:57that. Um, if you don't, if you aren't ready to be accountable for the violence that then is perpetuated
01:00:04in the name of all of the, that movement and all of that rhetoric.
01:00:07Absolutely. And more to the point, you, you were involved with this type of thing. I was involved.
01:00:12So I understand how this works. The news media will have trouble connecting all of these dots,
01:00:18because if you go look at the literature, it's going to be completely whitewashed of anything
01:00:22that might incite violence for the same exact reasons that I mentioned earlier. You can't do
01:00:28this because it is a felony in the United States to do this. So they won't do this. But as we have
01:00:34mentioned in the podcast that you're talking about, what these people do and the reason why the news
01:00:40media misses it, they will have their published documentation where here, here's what we believe.
01:00:45Here's how we stand for it. We're peaceful, all of this stuff. Well, what they do is then they charge
01:00:52the sermons. They politically charge the sermons by taking passages from the Bible that talk about
01:01:00very violent things that happened, especially in the Old Testament. And then they will, in the same
01:01:06sermon, transition to talking about, and we need to pray for the things that are happening today.
01:01:12And they make references where people connect the two in their minds. So just as in the Bible days,
01:01:19they carried shields and swords and went and attacked the enemy, and God helped them trample over the
01:01:26enemy and their bodies lay in the fields. Well, they have made the same associations to the political
01:01:33leaders of today. And because it's separate, they're talking in one part of the sermon, they're
01:01:40talking about the Old Testament, and then another part they're talking about, and please pray for those
01:01:44today. Even though that's separate, it is inciting the same levels of violence. And they're very,
01:01:51very tactful in how they do that, because it is a felony. I think that the whole system needs to be
01:01:58re-evaluated as to what you can legally do behind the pulpit and what you can't legally do. But I'm in
01:02:05the minority on that. However, that would make a great podcast. We should probably add that to our
01:02:12list and talk about that in the future. Yeah. What do we do about this? And because I agree with you,
01:02:17I, but, you know, like a lot of, a lot of, in the past, we've seen things be illegal, and, and this
01:02:27community almost uses any sort of political or legal repercussions to their advantage, like Jack
01:02:35Coe being put in prison, and him being, using it as like the, the state is, is persecuting me for
01:02:42healing all of these people. And, but that's a whole can of worms that we should probably unpack.
01:02:47And give it its own time. So yeah, that sounds great.
01:02:51It's a can of worms we will open later. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more
01:02:57information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-brannum.org. For more
01:03:02about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, including almost everything that we've talked
01:03:07about today, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon,
01:03:14Kindle, and Audible.
01:03:19Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR!
01:03:23Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, and
01:03:35the Worldwide platform to various different ...
01:03:37Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon,
01:03:40and the