Manifested Deception: Unmasking Dominionism’s Sinister Agenda | Kevin & Barbara Sisti | Ep. 369 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John welcomes Kevin and Barbara as they share their experiences and insights about their time with IHOP KC and its connections to broader theological movements. The discussion explores how dominionist ideas were embedded in the teachings they encountered, the challenges of recognizing hidden agendas, and their personal journey from trust to realization. Together, they examine the role of strategic manipulation in shaping belief systems and highlight the importance of returning to foundational spiritual teachings.  As the dialogue deepens, Kevin and Barbara recount significant conversations and confrontations they had with key figures, revealing troubling patterns of rhetoric and strategy. They discuss how movements have historically blended faith and politics, the dangers of misusing spiritual authority, and their concerns about modern efforts to build societal influence under religious banners. Throughout, they emphasize the need for clarity, humility, and adherence to core spiritual truths, urging listeners to discern carefully and focus on genuine faith. ______________________ Kevin and Barbara's Blog: https://www.pellegrinowalk.com ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guests, Kevin and Barbara Sisti,

00:00:47former members of IHOPKC. Kevin, Barbara, it's good to be back and to talk about all things IHOP,

00:00:54and I got a little bit excited. You were talking about manifested sons of God, and

00:00:59mentioned the name Branham and some of the weird connections that I have to all of this mess, and

00:01:04I'm excited to get into that and learn more, peel back the covers deeper on what was being taught

00:01:11at IHOPKC. So I'm very glad to have you back. Thank you so much for coming back.

00:01:15Yeah, thank you. Thank you, John. Yeah, I think what prompted me to actually reach out to you in the

00:01:23first place was the Bethel communion revival, and I believe you had Adam on there, and he was referring

00:01:30to the confrontation that happened at IHOPKC on a Friday night with Dean Briggs, basically

00:01:41saying, confronting them on the fact that they were trying to diminish Mike Bickle's involvement

00:01:49and whatever. So he had mentioned that, and it reminded us of many conversations that we've had

00:01:56with Dean, reminded us of the whole IHOP debacle, and we wanted to kind of bring out some information

00:02:05that maybe people don't know, all for the sake of warning the sheep. As you said, all things IHOP.

00:02:16Really interesting thing about IHOP. I have found out through the last couple years of study

00:02:25and looking at it, that really the heart of the teaching was dominionist in nature,

00:02:33wrapped in kind of a premillennial blanket, so to speak. And I don't think people realize that.

00:02:40So one of the interesting things, and why we wanted to bring up Dean Briggs,

00:02:46is that he was in that environment of a premillennial environment. We thought that that

00:02:55was his view. And so we were praying for him. We were a part of his ministry, so to speak.

00:03:03And yet we didn't realize the dominionist roots of what he really believed and what he really

00:03:10wanted to teach, but felt like he couldn't teach at IHOP.

00:03:14Yeah. It was interesting, too, as we kind of studied more. So I grew up in Missouri Synod Lutheran,

00:03:23so this is very far. And working in ministry world, in the missions world, overseas and nationally

00:03:32for about 22 years, about. I've worked with a lot of different denominations and dominion.

00:03:43Theology has not been something that I actually understood.

00:03:46I had heard Seven Mountain Mandate. I had heard about all that from people praying for canopies

00:03:52of prayer, good friends of mine, that I didn't understand the connection. And I really hadn't,

00:04:01frankly, done due diligence to understand what the dominion theology actually was.

00:04:05And to me, initially, it was like, well, why wouldn't we pray for every sphere of society

00:04:10and that people who are in those spheres would, you know, talk about the gospel, tell people about

00:04:17Jesus, whether you're at the hospital or, you know, you're a CEO or you're a stay-at-home mom,

00:04:22you should be talking about Jesus wherever you are in the gospel. So to me, that made perfect sense.

00:04:30And that was the frame that I had heard. But interestingly, in the last several years,

00:04:38certainly since everything has happened at IHOP, the question that I have been finding,

00:04:43that I've been telling Kevin that we've been asking more, that I never thought I would need

00:04:47to ask people that I've run hard with after the Lord, I thought, in ministry for 20 plus years,

00:04:53is what do you actually believe? What do you actually believe? Who is Jesus to you?

00:05:00And who are you in reference to him? And I think, I think Kevin has been more understanding of the

00:05:09situation than I, I think I was much more naive about blatant deception, intentionally deceiving

00:05:17people. I just thought it was an issue of not being a clear communicator and that I needed to

00:05:23re-engage the conversation and maybe be more specific. And so that's kind of where we found

00:05:32ourselves with Dean. Dean's been a good friend and colleague for several years and

00:05:39mostly in a ministry context. But certainly, I read his Ecclesia Rising book and I really liked it.

00:05:52And we talked about dominion with him and he was assuring everyone, including colleague friends of

00:05:59ours that we recommended the book to, it wasn't about dominion at all. That that wasn't, you know,

00:06:05and even Kevin read it, like looking for the dominion overtones, which, you know, and he's

00:06:09like, you know, it's just, but I think that's when I was first understanding the duality of

00:06:17conversations. You know, Kevin keeps saying, we're having two conversations. And I'd be like,

00:06:22what do you mean? He's like, we're saying this word and they're saying this word. Our definition

00:06:27is completely different than their definition. And I was like, no. And that is, in fact, what

00:06:36has proven to be true. Absolutely. In fact, I've had this conversation a few times on podcasts that

00:06:42have recorded before this. I think they will come out maybe before, maybe after this. People are going

00:06:48to get tired of me hearing me say this, but when I was growing up, I did not know that I was supposed

00:06:54to be this arrogant person. I had no clue I was supposed to be arrogant because it's not in my

00:07:00nature to be that way. And I actually read my Bible. So whenever Jesus said, my kingdom is not

00:07:07of this world, I took that to mean what he said. He said, it's not of this world. And it, for me,

00:07:15it was a defining profound statement because no matter what happens to you, it doesn't matter.

00:07:21Your kingdom's not of this world. If somebody is misusing you, mistreating you, well, their eyes

00:07:27are focused on this world, this kingdom. My eyes are focused on a different kingdom. That was how

00:07:33my life, that's how I operated my life. And most of my life has been that way. That was how I was

00:07:38defined. What's really interesting is the sermons of William Branham that I grew up on, we listened to

00:07:45him over and over and over and over and over. Up to a certain year, he kind of taught that way.

00:07:54He, you know, is mixed with a lot of cult theology that was horrific. But when he talked about the

00:07:59kingdom, he did put it into a different place. It wasn't dominion here. What's really, really

00:08:04interesting is whenever the civil rights battle got heated and all of the civil rights, the anti-civil

00:08:12rights leaders were rising up in opposition, fighting the governments, et cetera, that's when

00:08:17it seemed to shift. And he started saying things like, we need another Elijah to rise up against

00:08:23Ahab. And he was, what he was doing was he would take biblical figures, the bad guys, and he would

00:08:32label politicians as the bad guy of this big biblical figure. And like you said, two conversations.

00:08:38When I was a kid, I didn't realize he was doing this. And so when he was talking about Ahab and

00:08:43Elijah, I was thinking literally Ahab and Elijah, but he was talking about Kennedy. And when he was

00:08:48talking about Ahab and Jezebel, he was talking about Jacqueline and JFK. So I didn't realize that

00:08:55I was supposed to put those two and two together, because had I did, my logical brain would have

00:09:00thought, well, wait a minute, JFK is dead. What does this even matter to me? Why am I listening to it?

00:09:05Right. And I went back in time, and I wanted to know what is the roots of this? When I was writing

00:09:12my latest book, I wanted to know why has it turned into dominionism? Was it because of William Branham

00:09:18or something else? And what I learned was, before Branham even was a, he was a minister, but before it

00:09:25was a name, before it turned into a big latter rain movement, there was what was called the Supreme

00:09:31Kingdom. And they were, just like today, they were trying to oust everybody who did not believe

00:09:37their political views. They were putting many things into the spiritual realm that were, should

00:09:44have remained into the physical. And they were manipulating heads to believe that if you wanted

00:09:49to stand up to be a Christian, you need to align with these political policies. That was the Supreme

00:09:55Kingdom. And it was created by leaders of the Klan who had been ousted from the Klan, some of them for

00:10:03severely horrific things that they, immoral things that they were doing. So this movement was created.

00:10:12Branham was touring with the leaders of this movement, and it was short-lived. It dissolved.

00:10:17But what happened was, it was carried forward almost underground, and resurrected again in the 60s.

00:10:24And what's really, really scary is that I'm watching it, this history repeat itself now three times,

00:10:30it's resurrecting again in the NAR.

00:10:33Absolutely, John. I think the first time that I reached out to you before we did our first podcast,

00:10:41I had asked some questions about Reconstructionism, because it seems like somewhere along the line,

00:10:51the Reconstructionists, Rush Dooney at North, and those guys kind of combined with the Kingdom

00:10:56message of the 80s, how that actually occurred and all that is another story. But really,

00:11:05the Reconstructionists, I started to go back and look at where that came from. And what you were saying

00:11:10was a good point, but it goes back even further. It goes back into the Reformation. It goes back into

00:11:16Calvin and the system that he was setting up in Geneva and basically built on biblical law.

00:11:23It goes back to Constantine, where the Catholic Church was eventually formed out of and basically

00:11:31marrying the Church to the state. And so, yeah, I think it's been done so many times. And now,

00:11:38as we look at that, if we look back at history and just go, okay, we've tried this before,

00:11:44we've ended up with Inquisition, we've ended up with Crusades, we've been killing each other in the name

00:11:52of Jesus, this is all going to play out again if we're not careful. And so, that's pretty scary.

00:12:00So, once again, getting back to how we started, we're seeing this movement, we're seeing the threads of this

00:12:08movement. And IHOP was kind of an explosion that happened for us. We backed off. Everybody dug in,

00:12:15it seemed, and kept on going with ministry. And we were asking, okay, Lord, how did this happen?

00:12:21And he revealed to us this bigger issue that is across the world right now. And that is the threads

00:12:29of the NAR, the threads of Dominion theology. And it all kind of just showed its tentacles and its

00:12:39true reality in, unfortunately, our friend Dean. As we started talking to him more and more,

00:12:47and more and more had been exposed. We asked more and more questions. And as we were asking the

00:12:55questions, meeting after meeting, maybe about six meetings, we finally got to a last meeting.

00:13:02Well, I think that was the initial, it was questioning of, okay, are we understanding? Because

00:13:09I thought you meant this, and then the fruit looks like this. And I was concerned, I've been concerned

00:13:22for many, many years in different streams. I've had conversations in the disciple making movement

00:13:30streams about multiplication. I've had issues, you know, at Saddleback Church, different places where

00:13:36I'm seeing some things that now, all of a sudden, I feel like, it's like, oh, oh, wait, there's,

00:13:44they're all, they're all tied together. It's called something different. But there's a thread of,

00:13:51it's like a big spider web. And some are way more full of web than others. But even the denominations,

00:13:59the Presbyterian, the specific denominations, because of the language, and because of this need to be

00:14:06relevant, which is not biblical, and emergent, and the new, the postmodern era we find ourselves

00:14:15in, the seeker-friendly, going door-to-door to ask people in the community what they want, and then

00:14:21starting a church based on that. That's a famous thing Rick Warren says all the time from the pulpit

00:14:26of, okay, so why are we asking people who don't know Jesus what they want, and then do it? That's

00:14:35not, that's not the gospel. That's not the gospel. And I think it, it's, it seems very American to me.

00:14:42You know, it's very consumer driven. It's very about PR and strategy. And I think that's the reality

00:14:51that I'm coming to is I've been having conversations for years across different streams. And maybe I'm

00:15:01slow. I think maybe that's part of it. But I just, I took things at face value. And I, I believe that

00:15:07the Bible was true. And I believe it's inerrant. And I believe it's literal. And I, I thought,

00:15:14I thought my colleagues did too. And so I think when we sat down with Dean initially,

00:15:20I just thought it was a giant miscommunication, misunderstanding, which we had multiple meetings.

00:15:30Sometimes his wife was with us. Sometimes there's just the three of us, but it was always the two

00:15:34of us. And I think where I finally, you know, we were on the way to a meeting in Colorado Springs and,

00:15:39and this is Kevin and his kindness turned to me and goes, Barb, I just want you to be ready

00:15:44for the fact that you think we just have to explain it better. And he's going to hear it and go,

00:15:51oh my goodness, I understand what the disconnect is here. Here it is. He goes, but what I want to say

00:15:57to you is he's intentionally doing this. And this isn't about you communicating better. This is about,

00:16:04he has a different agenda. And we had had a meeting in, in outside of Kansas city where, uh, Kevin had,

00:16:14was very concerned about, he was starting a new venture and he had really militant images and words,

00:16:19um, on his, uh, PR stuff for this new embassy ecclesia, he called it. And so we met them and him and his

00:16:29wife and, and with the question of why the militant language, like kind of confusing, we don't

00:16:34understand. And this is where I kind of started to get the glimpse of weight. I think this is something

00:16:40else is he, he was very specific about, well, you know, um, there's three big motivators for people

00:16:48who we find that most people are stuck on high center. I said, okay. And he said, and there's three

00:16:53motivators for getting people off. And so I use that language intentionally. And I said, okay. And

00:16:59he said, um, fear, anger, and sadness are the three best motivators of people to get them stuck off of

00:17:08high center. So I'm intentionally using provocative language to move people off of high center.

00:17:15And I said, Dean, that's, that sounds like manipulation to me. That is manipulation. And

00:17:21Jesus doesn't manipulate people. Jesus doesn't manipulate people. People come freely or they

00:17:25don't come. And that's, that's up to between them and God, but it's not, we're not supposed to

00:17:33manipulate people. And, um, so then he kind of went into these things and I finally said in that

00:17:39conversation, um, which I was getting really concerned and elevating for sure. And I said, you know,

00:17:47it sounds like you're talking about Christianizing everything. And that again, isn't Jesus. It's

00:17:53about Jesus being chosen. I said, here's what I'm not okay with. And what I won't, I will not be part

00:18:00of what you're describing, which sounds like Christian jihad to me. I'm not okay with that,

00:18:06that that is not okay. Um, just like any kind of jihad is not okay to me, but especially with Jesus

00:18:13Christ, because we are able to choose him and, and it is him that builds his church. He's the one that

00:18:21saves us. He's the one that chooses like it's him. Anything good in me is Jesus Christ. Um, uh, so

00:18:30from there and unraveled, your quote reminded me of the wise words, fear leads to anger, anger leads to

00:18:36hate, hate leads to suffering, which is the wide wise words of Yoda, which is probably not relevant to

00:18:42this conversation. But there's so much that you said to unpack both of you. Um, so agenda for me,

00:18:50that's really the big thing here, because what I have come to understand and learn through all of

00:18:56this research is that there was always an agenda. It wasn't that there was this agenda that suddenly

00:19:02appeared. For example, people in mainstream Christianity in the news suddenly are shocked

00:19:08that this movement is trying to create a theocracy. They're shocked. But if you trace,

00:19:15trace it back to its roots, John Alexander Dowie, who was the prototype for all of this started the

00:19:21theocratic party and tried to take over Washington DC. That was the initial goal of the movement.

00:19:28And he was deeply involved in many of the core doctrines that evolved into eventually what became

00:19:34IHOP KC, but fundamentally to the latter rain movement. So this notion that we need to rise

00:19:40up as Joel's army, we need to take over the government. All of this was nothing new in this,

00:19:47the theocratic party, I want to say it was 19, what was it 1906, I think somewhere around there.

00:19:53So this has been going on for hundreds of years, right? And so that movement existed. But you also

00:20:01mentioned reconstructionism, which is interesting, because those two things are so similarly,

00:20:06similarly related. And not many people know how deep it ties to the NAR. Whenever C. Peter Wagner,

00:20:14I think it was in 2008, he published his book, Dominion, How Kingdom Action Can Change the World.

00:20:22He traced his intellectual theory of his dominion theology, right straight to Rush Dooney. And he said he had

00:20:29Rush Dooney to thank for this. He was indebted to Rush Dooney. I can't remember his exact words, but

00:20:34Rush Dooney essentially was painting the picture of what dominion would look like. And many of the

00:20:40people who were the backbone to this movement also came from latter rain and latter rain descended from

00:20:46Dowie and Dowie had the theocratic party. So you've got multiple streams of this theocracy notion

00:20:53coming in, all of which are in defiance of Jesus's words, my kingdom is not of this world. So this was

00:21:00an entire movement that their agenda was to create a theocracy. And yet it's defying Jesus. But here's

00:21:07where it gets really problematic. The agenda is never published. So when people come in, like you said,

00:21:15you're talking to a minister or you're listening to a sermon, he's saying one thing, and you're hearing

00:21:20another, it doesn't really click until you understand that underneath every single statement

00:21:25that the man makes is this agenda. And that agenda is not a biblical agenda. That's where it gets

00:21:31problematic. Absolutely. It's so interesting because I've had, after we had our final meeting, and we'll

00:21:40go into the final meeting and what was actually said. But after we had that, I've been having

00:21:46conversations, so to speak, or confrontations with Dean Briggs on his Facebook. Until he blocked you.

00:21:55Yeah, until he blocked me this last time. But at any rate, my concern was in this last meeting,

00:22:03he had mentioned, and again, I think we'll wait to get into that, but he had mentioned that he was,

00:22:11that he believed in manifested sons of God. And we just immediately, you know, we're just appalled

00:22:19by it. But I've been confronting him. And as I've been confronting him on this, he's doing exactly

00:22:26what you're saying. And that is, he pushes back and said, I never said anything about William Branham

00:22:35or manifested sons of God. I've never, but yet he's still teaching everything. He's still throwing

00:22:42it out there for everyone to chew on. But he's denying the fact, maybe because so many people

00:22:47realize that the latter rain and William Branham is an aberrant movement, and he doesn't want to be

00:22:52associated with it. Right. He's a strategist. That's his job.

00:22:56But all that said, I'm agreeing with you. And then I wanted to, as well, go back to the final

00:23:02meeting that we had with Dean Briggs in Colorado Springs. Just happened. We all happen to be there

00:23:09at the same time. I texted him in the morning. I said, we want to talk to you. He said, great,

00:23:15I'm here. Stopped by, I think it was four o'clock in the afternoon. He was staying at the Broadmoor

00:23:20Hotel. He was fasting with Lou Engel together. They were fasting for the Million Women March on

00:23:28Washington, D.C., which was going to happen in about two weeks, which is a whole other story.

00:23:35But with that, I'll let... Misogyny, I'm afraid. I will let Barb speak.

00:23:41Yeah. That's a whole other, probably hour of conversation, at least, if you want me to talk

00:23:48about misogyny in the church. But using women for political gain, that's not new. But yeah,

00:23:58I think one of the things that is critical that didn't matter as a friend, but matters as a peer

00:24:07and a colleague and a sister in Christ is the fact that Dean is a brilliant strategist. And he was in

00:24:13charge of strategy and PR at IHOP KC the whole time he was there. Dean is a brilliant, brilliant

00:24:21person. I was really wanting to work with Dean for years before I got to know him because he is

00:24:28incredibly smart and very intentional, which I didn't see a lot of in a lot of places I was.

00:24:37And so it was really great. And I think that's the reason this is such a hard thing. This isn't

00:24:43just like, oh, we want to call somebody out. And there's so much of that going on that needs to be

00:24:50done. But there's so much, I think, of it being done in ways that are not honoring to the Lord.

00:24:55And I want truth and love. And we love Dean and Jeannie. We do. We have. We've prayed for them for

00:25:02a long time. I've edited some of his books. Like, I know the man well. He gave a commissioning

00:25:09prayer at the end of our wedding. That's how well we know Dean Bricks. And so I hope that it's more

00:25:18of being deceived and deceiving others, as the scripture talks about. That's still horrific,

00:25:25but it's easier to swallow. But the more I look at and pray through things and look at scripture and

00:25:32look at quotes and hold up my Bible and hold up the words being spoken, there's such a disconnect

00:25:39that I can't put my head in the sand. I just was writing about in Ephesians that, you know,

00:25:47do not participate in unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them. And so we did Matthew 18.

00:25:56This was our attempt with dear friends to go and say, hey, hey, is this what you're saying? Because

00:26:03this is what this sounds like. And, and we love you. And this is not biblical. So we want to as a

00:26:09leader and a speaker, and I don't know what he calls himself, but he definitely teaches from the

00:26:15platform. This is this is scary. So when we were in Colorado Springs, there had been some evasion,

00:26:23because after the conversation, when I said, there's no manipulation in Jesus, there was,

00:26:29I wrote a big email to Dean after that. And in his email response, he indicated, and he was right.

00:26:37Hey, I, I'm no different. I've always been the same way. I've always believed I'm not believing

00:26:42anything that I've ever. And he is right. He is right. The problem is, we, we define things

00:26:50differently. If I'm somebody praying for the in the mission world, and I've been to 18 countries and

00:26:55done a lot of work with major leaders around the world. When you tell me that you want to be a member

00:27:00on mission, and you want to bring Jesus wherever you are. I, yeah, that's in my Bible. I believe all

00:27:08of that. I think that's right. But it's the Jesus of the gospel. And it's not an elite chosen group of

00:27:17people who call themselves apostles and prophets, and who are, get the super secret information.

00:27:28And they're not, no one's building Jesus's kingdom here on earth. It's interesting to me,

00:27:35I was, I've been in Ephesians, and I told Kevin that it says when in the passage in Ephesians 5,

00:27:42so he is going to sanctify her, and her having cleansed her by the washing of the water of his

00:27:50word, the he being Jesus, he's talking about his church, that he might present to himself the church

00:27:57in all her glory. So I guess I'm confused why people think that we're going to take over the

00:28:01mountains, these seven mountains, and then we're going to give Jesus the keys to his own kingdom,

00:28:07when his kingdom is one, not of the world, and two, Jesus is going to present to himself the church.

00:28:15It says nothing about society. It says nothing about world. Jesus didn't change the leaders.

00:28:22He called out the religious ones because they were lying and misrepresenting him, but he never,

00:28:28he didn't take on Caesar. He didn't take on Pontius Pilate. And so I look at my Bible,

00:28:34and I, I'm really confused. And so we, we're in Colorado Springs and we're, we're, again,

00:28:42this is right before Kevin's like, Barb, this is going to go differently than you think. He is,

00:28:47he was right. God help you. I was so upset, but, uh, yeah, you can't, cause I was a mess.

00:28:55So, so yeah, Barb was a mess and we're sitting down with Dean as he's, uh, fasting. Um, at any

00:29:03rate, we keep at the Broadmoor, met us outside. We sat at a table and I just said, listen, you know,

00:29:10there's, there's actually the conversation started out with Dean saying, Oh yeah. Saying, listen,

00:29:16guys, I know you have some concerns over some of the stuff that I'm saying or teaching or whatever,

00:29:21but I think we have more things in common than what we, we actually imagined. And we're probably

00:29:26going to come out here on the same page. And I was like, okay. So we just started talking about some

00:29:31of our concerns about militancy and why taking over spheres and why pushing back the blue and prayer

00:29:37strikes and all these things that he's talking about. And so eventually Barb chimes in and just

00:29:43says, you know, Dean, we're kind of, you know, I, I look at myself like an ant compared to God,

00:29:50just as an ant, you know, I mean, he could, he could just step on me if he wants to, but,

00:29:55but I, you know, it's, it's the God of the universe that we're talking about.

00:29:59Well, and that's what there was a little sugar in on the ground. And I said, I look at the

00:30:02ant and if I'm God and the ant is me, what could that ant possibly do to help me? Like what,

00:30:10what could he possibly give to me that I couldn't do? He's an ant.

00:30:13And then what did he say?

00:30:15And Dean's response, which Kevin picked up on, I didn't understand it. He goes, well,

00:30:22I really love this analogy and I might use it because, you know, sometimes an ant is more

00:30:27than an ant.

00:30:29And so Kevin went,

00:30:30wait a minute, wait a minute. What, what does that mean? Because this is, this is what we're

00:30:38having to do nowadays with any of our conversations is words don't mean the same to us as they mean

00:30:44to other people. We actually have to define those words as we're going along. So I, I said to Dean,

00:30:49I was like, what does that mean? He's like, boy, you know, that it's like sons. It's, it's like

00:30:55sonship. Yeah. He started describing the ants. And then I said, manifested. And he did, he fell

00:31:04back in his chair and goes, yeah, the whole thing, the whole William Branham manifested sons of God

00:31:09soup to nuts, soup to nuts. And, and he was really like, every, this whole countenance changed. And it

00:31:17was just this silent moment of like, oh my gosh, wait. And so, so though we're, we're saying

00:31:25this in a humorous way right now, we're, we're just, we were appalled by this. So by the end of

00:31:31the conversation to, to kind of wrap it up, we, I just said, listen, Dean, when we, you had talked

00:31:38in the beginning about having more in common, um, by the time we were done, I just want to say

00:31:44clearly to you right now, we do not, we do not. It was at that point that he said, I think we need

00:31:51an exit strategy. And he, he said, I, I don't want any more emails from you guys. I don't want

00:31:59you praying for me or my ministry. Please don't, please don't pray for my ministry. Um, and we,

00:32:08we basically parted ways at that point, except for the, the ongoing Facebook discussions that

00:32:13I've had. And as your wife, I'm going to, I'm going to take, I'm going to take a little offense

00:32:18right now because I, he continued, um, to, to post and continues to this day, these alarming,

00:32:29um, pictorials that are straw man arguments. And basically he's got this idea that we're in this

00:32:35new era and the old era was the church and the new era is Ecclesia and he's taking this to this place.

00:32:41But one of the ones that, that Kevin saw that he found particularly appalling and unbiblical,

00:32:47um, and heretical, we'll go there. Um, was he, it was, uh, this Christ spirit in Jesus.

00:32:58No, it was a, it was a, a picture of, it just said it had a door or a window in the middle

00:33:04of picture, a computer screen on the left-hand side, it said Christ in Jesus. And then the

00:33:11doorway to the new era, Christ in us. And I kept pushing back on him saying, what does Christ in,

00:33:21in Jesus mean? Are you saying basically what I've been saying that you've been saying that this is

00:33:27manifested sons of God and so on and so forth. And that's what he was pushing back on. But little

00:33:33by little increment by increment, he keeps throwing things out and he does it in this way. He says,

00:33:39some think this, some people think that this may be true. What do you think? And then a few posts down

00:33:48the line, it becomes actually truth. And anybody that studies psychology for five minutes knows if

00:33:54you say a lie three times, people buy it, even if they know it's a lie when it starts. And I think

00:34:00the, the conversation, the thing that makes me very angry is the intentional deception.

00:34:07If, if, if Satan is the father of lies, anytime we're lying, we are aligning ourselves, not with

00:34:13Jesus. And the Bible is very clear. And, and what concerned me about, he wrote a blurb that was just

00:34:20as appalling as the picture. And then Kevin called him out on it as a brother in kindness and love.

00:34:28And, um, Dean's response was to call Kevin a liar about what happened with the William Branham

00:34:34suits and that's comment. And then, you know, doing that, well, I thought we were friends. This

00:34:40might be why, you know, it was just so gamey and so duplicitous and to, to lie about what he said

00:34:48and then to call Kevin a liar. And then he eventually blocked him and took everything

00:34:53down to deleted it all. Mostly because I was asking him to simply come out, come out and say

00:34:58it, what you've told us, tell everybody and he won't do it. Well, and that's what we said at the

00:35:03end is if he's, if he, if this is biblical and what he's saying is, you know, cause he says he's a

00:35:11voracious reader of scripture and he loves the Bible. If this is true, then why is he just not telling

00:35:17people? Why is he not calling it dominion? Why is, if it's right and it's biblical, okay,

00:35:23then say it, tell people what you believe, call it what you call it. That's, I don't understand

00:35:31why if it's, if it's of the Lord, I don't get it. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal

00:35:38movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the

00:35:43latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:35:49You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:35:54william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of

00:36:00John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper,

00:36:07audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation

00:36:12on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the

00:36:18cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top. And as always,

00:36:24be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:36:30On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:36:34So I think for the sake of people who are listening who aren't familiar with manifested sons of God,

00:36:40we've used this term a few times, we need to probably explain what this weird mess is.

00:36:46And then on the flip side, for people who are indoctrinated with this and does not realize

00:36:50that it's anti-biblical, we should probably explain that a bit too. But there was this notion that it

00:36:57was a direct relation to the Christian identity doctrine. This spawned off of the mixture of

00:37:02fundamentalist religion and Christian identity. They would birth Joel's army,

00:37:07they were taking on the identity of the, they believe that the British Isles and the United

00:37:14States were the descendants of the lost 10 tribes of Israel. Therefore, we are the Christians,

00:37:21this is our identity, and we are the manifested sons of God. And what does this mean? They were

00:37:27taking any passage that talks about what Jesus will do when he returns, they would apply this to the

00:37:35people. So they were making gods out of the people. And any time that a minister says Christ in you,

00:37:43if you are a non-programmed Christian who attended a normal church and understood the gospel and has

00:37:50read the Bible, this just simply means what Jesus said, I will be with you, even in you I will send

00:37:55the Holy Spirit. He will lead you and guide you to all truth. It's more of a leading and you are a

00:38:01follower type relationship. But under manifested sons of God, it wasn't that way. They taught that

00:38:07this entity came down and embodied Jesus and it was divine. And that entity would come again. And

00:38:13that entity would embody itself in the humans at the end of the world. And there would be this great

00:38:19race war. That was literally the doctrine. And even the people who teach this doctrine, they take away,

00:38:26like you'll never hear one of these guys say race war. Never. They will take it out. But that's what

00:38:32it was. That's what they were teaching. And so if you are a normal Christian, you hear us say manifested

00:38:37sons of God, keep in mind that we're literally talking about a belief from a person who's claiming

00:38:44to be Christian minister saying that you will become gods, you will become Jesus's and you will rise up and

00:38:51you will fight. That's the doctrine. On the flip side, if you're indoctrinated in this, you have to

00:38:57understand that there is nothing in the Bible that describes what I just said. You can only do this if

00:39:03you take single passages and take them entirely out of their context and try to build your own context

00:39:09by scattering a few random verses that are literally talking about the deity of God. But they have taken

00:39:17them out of context and they're saying that if you read this, and don't read the rest of the Bible,

00:39:22mind you, but just read this one passage, you too can become a god. Well, and that's where it gets

00:39:27dangerous for the ones that have the super knowledge and they're the apostles and prophets. They misuse any

00:39:33authority that they have. And I think that's what's so dangerous and scary to me, this duplicitous

00:39:43nature. And watching, you know, in the town I grew up in, Andrew Womack is doing this and they're

00:39:51amassing things and they're openly talking about this civil war that's coming. And it's the simultaneous

00:39:58stoking this fire about, you know, hating certain politicians or loving others and making it about

00:40:07this we're being persecuted as Christians. And the reality is, anybody who's been to any of the

00:40:14countries where Christians are actually being persecuted for their faith in Jesus, not because

00:40:19they are obnoxious, unkind, mean-spirited people, it's a whole different ballgame. And it's appalling to

00:40:28me when I have seen the suffering in other countries where Christians are being mutilated and killed

00:40:34for their faith in Jesus. To say that anything like that is happening here in that context on that

00:40:44level is just, it's just profoundly wrong and untrue. And to stoke the hatred and the anger in people's

00:40:55hearts that are supposedly, supposedly lovers of Christ, when we're called to love God and love

00:41:03others, that there's nothing about Jesus. Jesus who came to serve, he came to die and he was made

00:41:11perfect through suffering. I don't understand why I need a Learjet if Jesus had no place to lay his head.

00:41:18There's so many things that are just not okay and not biblical.

00:41:25I think one of the things that concerns me, especially about the situation with Dean, and this is one of,

00:41:33I think, my main points. As we are, as Barb and I go out into mission circles, and we've, like Barb has said,

00:41:42we've been involved with these, with DMM and finishing the task and GACX and some of the other ones.

00:41:49As we go out, we are sitting there and we're saying we want to unify as a body, as a group to bring the

00:41:59Great Commission to the world. What is the Great Commission? What is it? When you have one person

00:42:06sitting there that might think that the Great Commission is the New Testament interpretation of

00:42:13the cultural mandate or the dominion mandate, another person is saying, let's just bring Jesus.

00:42:20But we're holding hands together and it seems like a big mix and a big mess if we have people

00:42:26believing in manifest sons of God or dominion or perfection or any of these things, and yet we're

00:42:34trying to unify as a church for the Great Commission to be fulfilled by a certain day.

00:42:43Where's the gospel and what is the gospel?

00:42:45And that's not John 17 unity anyway, which is what people are promoting, because it's about the truth

00:42:52and sanctifying people in truth. It's being unified around the truth of the gospel, the truth of the Bible

00:42:58in its entirety, from Genesis to Revelation, not just chosen passages. I think that's been the confusing

00:43:06conversations that I'm no longer confused by, thank God. But the decrees and the declarations and the

00:43:13strategic warfare prayer, I'm like, I don't see these things in my Bible. I don't understand why,

00:43:20you know, prayer is, is talking to Jesus about my friends and about the state of the world. And

00:43:26it's, it's a conversation built on intimacy and, and it's, it's, yeah, I'm not supposed to be standing

00:43:34on a street corner, letting you hear my prayer, um, and seeing how great I am and how many words I can

00:43:40say. It's, it's, but so I'm watching that there's these super special prayer people. Um, and it's,

00:43:48it's just, it's not a thing. And it's, it's scary when I, you know, we asked Dean, we're like,

00:43:54we're, I don't understand this declarative prayer declarations, strategic targeted warfare prayer.

00:44:00And he's like, oh, it's in the Bible. I'm like, well, where? Oh, well, Daniel did it. And I'm like,

00:44:05here's, here's the deal. Daniel was praying to his God. He was a captive. And by the way,

00:44:13for those that are confused, Esther, Daniel, and Joseph did not intentionally put themselves

00:44:19in government positions so that from the inside out, they could undermine the, the, the truth and

00:44:26be a super covert operative for Jesus. That's not biblical either. The bait and switch thing is

00:44:32not Jesus. That's people. And so when I hear that, that's what Daniel was doing. He wasn't

00:44:39declaring anything. He was praying to the God that he loved. He was asking him to help and asking for

00:44:46forgiveness when he was presuming things that he was not to be presuming. And I think we would all

00:44:54do well if we got on our faces and asked for forgiveness, not because America needs to rise

00:44:58up and take her place, but because Jesus is the King and we are not.

00:45:03Absolutely. There, there was a statement that you made in there. I want to expand on just a little

00:45:08bit because not many people realize this connection and it is profound. You're talking about the Great

00:45:15Commission and from your perspective, when you hear Great Commission, you're thinking the biblical

00:45:20version. And whenever they're talking, it's two conversations like you guys have been saying.

00:45:25Yes. Well, take that to a much, much deeper level, because I don't think many people realize what

00:45:31actually has happened here. Many of these leaders, they call these guys God's generals, and they're

00:45:38pointing to this movement that existed in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. And they're naming precursors to that

00:45:45movement as the line of God's generals that lead to this. So John G. Lake, for example, one of the biggest

00:45:51con artists and scam, he was a, he was a scam artist. He was a, just scoundrel. I'll just use

00:45:58that word. This guy was not a good guy, but he spread what they called the gospel overseas. And he

00:46:05was one of the precursors to the latter rain movement. He laid the fertile ground so this thing would grow

00:46:11over there. And then the latter rain movement and all of the worldwide revival movement, all of this

00:46:16spread around the globe. People who were in that mindset that this is the manifestation

00:46:21of the sons of God, this is the end of days, all of that theology that's wrapped into that,

00:46:27they believed that it was the fulfillment of the Great Commission. Go make disciples of all lands.

00:46:33So this happened. And so every single person who's in today's apostle NAR role looks back to this event

00:46:41as the fulfillment of the Great Commission so the manifestation of the sons of God can take place.

00:46:46And now we're past that. Now we need to go take authority and dominion. And so when they say

00:46:53Great Commission, it has this loaded language that means nothing like you expect it to mean.

00:46:58That's right.

00:46:59Right. Well, and that's the kingdom now thing too, that we've been hearing where it, and all these,

00:47:06all these different missions organizations and denominations are coming together.

00:47:10So, you know, my dear friend of mine always talks about, and she asks this question, it's kind of

00:47:16crass, but she always asks, so if there's poop, just a little bit of poop in the brownies, would

00:47:22you still eat those brownies? And so that's the question. I told Kevin, I said, there's more poop

00:47:26than brownie right now. And people don't even realize that they've just gotten used to eating poop and

00:47:30they forgot what brownie tastes like.

00:47:32And well, and unfortunately people are, people are not in the word and they are not.

00:47:37And we hear that all the time, right? We've got to get back to the word, but we really,

00:47:40you have to study the word. You have to understand it to know what's happening out there. And it's,

00:47:47and it's like you were just saying, the whole idea of the Great Commission now, we see all the

00:47:52movement out there. You see groups like Empowered 21 or FTT that want to get the Great Commission

00:47:59fulfilled by a certain year. And there's a, there's an urgency of that. But what is the Great

00:48:04Commission to them? A lot of them believe that it's just a reinterpretation of the, of the cultural

00:48:10mandate from, from Genesis, the so-called cultural mandate, which is Christianize the world and bring

00:48:17seven mountains. And, but who, we, we need to preach Jesus. We need to preach the gospel. That's what

00:48:24needs to go out. It's inner transformation of the heart. That's going to change somebody,

00:48:28not community transformation. I'm sorry. That's the first for everything else from there.

00:48:34It happened because the heart's been changed. Right. And community transformation,

00:48:39it is, you know, it's that C.S. Lewis quote you say all the time that if you put the first things

00:48:47first. Yeah. If you, if you, if you put first things first, you get second things thrown in.

00:48:54If you put second things first, you lose both first and second things. And that's what I think we're

00:48:59doing. I think we're losing the baby with the bathwater. We're losing it all because we're,

00:49:04we're choosing seven mountains. We're choosing dominion. We're, we're not of this world. We're

00:49:10citizens of heaven. We're choosing all these secondary issues to concentrate on when Jesus is

00:49:16saying, I came, I died for people, for individuals to come and, and to, and to have forgiveness and to

00:49:26have a changed heart and a changed life. That's what we want to see. So with all this mess,

00:49:31that's, that's, that's the one thing that we want to elevate today in, in all of this is to say,

00:49:38Jesus, the one, look at Jesus, look at the word, read the Bible. It's in there, read the Bible. And,

00:49:44and, you know, it's, it's everywhere and read it in context backwards and forward, like know it.

00:49:52And, you know, Jesus is, is imploring his disciples who know him and who've walked with him. Hey,

00:50:00you know, it's like, I think it's 12 times in Matthew 24, stay alert, pay attention, keep,

00:50:06be ready, watch, stay. And it's like, we're here. Like we, we are in a place where deception is

00:50:13happening and, and things are shifting rapidly and whatever, whenever Jesus comes, that's not mine,

00:50:21but there's a, there's a readiness, uh, being a student of his word and sitting at his feet

00:50:28and not from a, I'm going to take over and, you know, run things. And it doesn't really matter if I

00:50:34know Jesus or not. I mean, that's the thing that I've been horrified about. Even the dominion thing

00:50:39is like, it's like, no, it's a person that's at the top of the mountain. We don't really like

00:50:43see Peter Wagner's books are kind of appalling because it's like, not kind of, they're appalling,

00:50:48but it's because this idea of, you know, it doesn't really matter if they love, love Jesus or if they

00:50:54have good character or anything. It's just about their, the, the head of the medium mountain and the

00:50:59head of the, you know, and we need to just stop this, this idea of, of, you know, making, I, I used to,

00:51:08this used to drive me nuts that I helped Casey. This is just a personal, but when people are like,

00:51:12we need to be Esther's or we need to be David's or, and I'm like, no, I need to be Barb. God made me

00:51:18and I need to, whatever that means. And I'm glad for David and I'm really excited about Esther,

00:51:23but I'm not supposed to be an Anna. I'm supposed to be a Barbara. And so that's this, this thing of

00:51:31just like, we have to be that or, or, or making people like you talked about earlier with, with,

00:51:37uh, you know, JFK and Jack, like that, that idea of recasting people, you know, when we saw Dean last,

00:51:47he, he said, you know, I said, Oh, well, what are you doing here? Uh, cause I grew up outside of

00:51:53Colorado Springs, so I'm pretty familiar with the area. And I, he said, Oh, well, we're, he was,

00:51:57you probably aren't going to like why I'm here. And I said, Oh, that sounds interesting. And he

00:52:02said, well, we're getting ready to do the, uh, you know, million women March in Washington, DC.

00:52:09And it was like three weeks before the election. And I said, well, that's,

00:52:12that seems really timely. I said, so it's like a pre-election rally. And he goes, no, no, no.

00:52:19It's, and, but the tagline was so appalling. And I, I said, okay, so how many women are actually

00:52:24going to be at this, like on the platform? Well, Lou Engel and Cheyenne. And I said,

00:52:30so it is a rally. And he goes, well, we can't, I go, Cheyenne is clearly stumping for Trump. Like,

00:52:36again, I don't, it's not about politics, but if we're supposed to be people of the kingdom,

00:52:40it's, it's not about left or right or Democrat or it's not about that. It's, it's, we're not of

00:52:47this world. We're just not, but, but you're going to gather women and make them feel like they're

00:52:52not good mothers and sisters and daughters. If they're not in Washington, fervently praying

00:52:57and there's a spirit of Ishtar. And I get confused. I get confused when that's a, that's a whole

00:53:06other podcast. I think people have done those already, but I just think that instead of focusing

00:53:17on Jesus and the Bible and learning the Bible and knowing what Jesus says and what God the Father

00:53:23is like and, and how we can see the fruit of the spirit and how we know what the fruit of the spirit

00:53:27is, we're focusing on, you know, building altars to Ishtar so we can beat, you know, hit them with

00:53:35sledgehammers. I don't, I don't understand what that has to do with the Bible at all. And it's at best,

00:53:41it's a distraction. Well, I think it was summed up best by the ants analogy, because if you go back

00:53:48and you study just ancient cultures and ancient histories from the dawn of time, men have tried

00:53:54to be more than they are. And that leads them into false religions when they want to be more than they

00:54:00are. And you have clear examples of this, like in the Tower of Babel example in the Bible, they want

00:54:06to become more than they are and destruction happens because of this. And like you said, it's

00:54:12very similar to being me and an ant. What does the, how can the ant empower me and embody me and become

00:54:20more than me? I'm so much bigger than the ant. And if you read the Bible, that's how it's supposed to

00:54:25be between man and God. But people have tried to become more than they are. And they don't realize

00:54:31it because they're so indoctrinated that they, they lose sight of that and try to entice people,

00:54:40entice the itching ears with doctrines that are the framework for developing other doctrines

00:54:46where people are more than human. I got into a conversation with this guy when I started doing,

00:54:53investigating John Wember. I was actually investigating the Kingdom Now theology and how it evolved from

00:54:59latter rain into this. And John Wember is a stepping stone as you go into this. And the focus,

00:55:06the guy who was arguing with me, his point was, well, John Wember didn't teach Kingdom Now theology.

00:55:11And for me, they're both one and the same. If you don't teach the biblical version and you have this

00:55:15intermediate version that leads you to the Kingdom Now theology, it's the same thing. You've just

00:55:22taken the steering wheel and the steering wheel is turning further as you go. Well, that's the way I see it.

00:55:27Because if you're trying to be more than an ant in God's eyes, you're trying to be something that

00:55:34you aren't and you're actually out of your place. So for me, if people could just focus on the simple

00:55:40things and ignore all of this doctrine that leads you to believe that you too can be a manifestation

00:55:46of the Son of God and be empowered with God and rise up to fight this race war that they're not

00:55:52telling you that it is a race war that you're going to fight. If you can just focus on the biblical

00:55:57things, you don't have to worry about all of this other mess. That's my takeaway from everything that

00:56:03you guys have said. Well, I would agree with that. So yeah, I just think that there's a lot of hype

00:56:11out there. I think they're targeting the younger generation for sure with Great Commission mandates and you can

00:56:20do this for Jesus and that. And it's a big man-made movement. And I just think that if we're really

00:56:32talking about the Great Commission and fulfilling that, we could do that in our own workplace and in our own

00:56:37neighborhoods. Yeah, and I just, it's an interesting, it's an interesting dilemma, especially in the Western

00:56:49culture, particularly United States, because we are, we're so individualistic and we're being all we can be and

00:56:55we're trying. And so it's so anti that to allow God to be God and to, to simply not try and

00:57:07build my own name or my own legacy or, you know, this quest to have a great, grand adventure and to

00:57:15leave a legacy. And, you know, I think one of the things that was really appalling in the conversation

00:57:22about the ant was when Dean continued and said, you know, that, you know, sometimes God ties his hands

00:57:31on purpose and he leaves it up to the ants and he, because he's done that, he can't intervene even if

00:57:39he wanted to. And if we don't do our job as ants, the jobs that he's given us, because some ants are,

00:57:45you know, doing the border and he went into this, I was like, whoa. And I would say, where, where is that

00:57:50in the Bible? That's what you said. That is actually what you said. Where is that? Fill me the page.

00:57:55Uh, but it's in there. It's in there. It's, it's a sweeping, you know, it's like, well,

00:58:01uh, but I think that's it is, is God is enough and he's big enough and, and we don't, we don't need

00:58:11to be here. I don't, I don't need to be God. I, I, I, I'm a mess. I can't do that. I don't want to do

00:58:18that. And I, I'm scared of anybody who says they are and want to. It's, it's, it's heretical, but

00:58:25it's also really scary because people are just so broken. Absolutely. There, there's a problem with

00:58:32arrogance and it starts with thinking that you can become a God. How can you not be arrogant if you

00:58:37think that you are a God? And something you said, I was just laughing. I was picturing, you said

00:58:43something to the effect of all you have to do is look at the minister and say, where's that in the

00:58:46Bible? Think of what would happen if every single person in every one of the branches of this

00:58:52movement were to suddenly rise up to the pastor and say, where's that in the Bible? They would

00:58:57realize that half the sermons they preach aren't from the Bible. It's from their own. I don't even

00:59:02know what you call it. It's, it's a, I hate to use the word Christianity. It's their own version of

00:59:07Christianity, but it's not even Christianity they're bringing because that's my Christ said, my kingdom is

00:59:13not of this world and that's not what they're teaching. So if everybody were to rise up and say,

00:59:18that's not in the Bible, show me where that's in the Bible. I think change would happen and I think

00:59:23things would be much different. So thank you so much for doing this. Well, thank you for having us.

00:59:28Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check

00:59:33us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the new

00:59:39Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on

00:59:45Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:09So thank you so much for joining us.

Manifested Deception: Unmasking Dominionism’s Sinister Agenda | Kevin & Barbara Sisti | Ep. 369

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