00:00In other news that we're following for you, with Donald Trump's attacks on academia,
00:05Europe seeing an opportunity.
00:08The president of the European Commission attending a forum at Paris' Sorbonne University,
00:13where she pledged 500 million euros for a fund to lure researchers to this side of the Atlantic.
00:23France's president in attendance, Emmanuel Macron, chipping in another 100 million.
00:28Charlie James has more.
00:30Europe wants you.
00:33That was the message to U.S.-based scientists at the Choose Europe for Science event in Paris.
00:40The continent's goal is to attract researchers who are disgruntled over U.S. science policy under President Donald Trump.
00:47And the European Commission is putting its money where its mouth is.
00:51Science is an investment, and we need to offer the right incentives.
00:56This is why I can announce that we will put forward a new 500 million euro package for 2025 to 2027 to make Europe a magnet for researchers.
01:11Von der Leyen also called it a miscalculation to question the role of science in today's world, a thinly veiled reference to the political and financial pressure Donald Trump is putting on American universities and research facilities.
01:26Trump's proposed budget for fiscal year 2026 calls for unprecedented scientific funding reductions, a 56 percent cut for the National Science Foundation and slashing the National Institutes of Health budget by about 40 percent.
01:42At the event, French President Emmanuel Macron called Trump's targeting in error.
01:48Let's cherish free and open science and reject a diktat that would mean a government can say it's forbidden to research this or that.
02:03Macron promising an additional 100 million euros from France to attract foreign researchers.
02:10While EU countries can offer competitive research infrastructure and high quality of life, salaries lag behind U.S. levels.
02:19This investment aims to close that gap during a rare opportunity to lure top science talent to European shores.
02:29And for more, let's cross to Brussels.
02:31Maria Leptin is president of the European Research Council.
02:35Thank you for being with us here on France 24.
02:37Hi. Yes, good to be here.
02:42So this conference at the Salban which you attended, this pledge of money, what's it about?
02:49Is it how many researchers do you think you're going to lure?
02:53Is it Americans you're seeking?
02:55Is it to get Europeans who go to America because it's more lucrative over there to come back?
03:00What is the plan?
03:02Well, let me first explain that the ERC, which was founded in 2007 to fund individual researchers' best ideas, researcher-driven ideas based only on excellence,
03:19that the ERC was founded with the idea of being very attractive to top talent, both at home and abroad.
03:27So it's always been the idea of the ERC to be very attractive to researchers.
03:33Now, of course, that comes into its own once again when we need to help our colleagues in the U.S.
03:39who are affected by these terrible cuts.
03:41So, yes, the U.S. colleagues who are losing their jobs are probably contenders for our grants.
03:50They would have been anyway.
03:51We've already offered top-up.
03:52But like everything, like everyone who applies at the ERC, winning is based on competition, and the competition will be open to all.
04:04And just to be clear, where would these researchers work?
04:09They would work at EU research institutions, universities, or research labs.
04:15So that is a condition.
04:18The money is administered via European institutions.
04:25It is sufficient, however, to spend at least 50 percent of one's time in Europe.
04:31So double affiliations are possible.
04:35And that, of course, may make it particularly attractive for colleagues in the U.S. to consider this now,
04:40because relocating completely a research lab or a family is, of course, not easily done from one day to the next.
04:50So, but the research, the funding will go, will be administered through a European research institution.
04:58Now, there were some eyebrows raised here in France when they heard,
05:02and we heard a clip of the French president Emmanuel Macron earlier,
05:05because there is a feeling, if you speak to people who are in research in academia in France,
05:11that there's been an erosion of the budgets over the last two decades.
05:15It's not just under this president, but all of his predecessors as well.
05:19And that, compared to the United States, it's still drastically underfunded academia in France.
05:28Does Emmanuel Macron signal that there's going to be a 180-degree turn when it comes to funding universities?
05:38I think he has heard the critique from people who are, who's trying to attract, also with regard to salary.
05:47So he made some positive noises.
05:49Now, at the EU level, which is, of course, what I represent,
05:54I'm very glad to say there's not been an erosion.
05:58There has been an increase.
06:00And, of course, we are extremely happy that President von der Leyen has said multiple times
06:07that she is putting research at the heart of European competitiveness.
06:14And I think this will be heard.
06:16I'm hoping this will be heard generally.
06:19And, you know, that's a good message I'm taking home today.
06:22And we're extremely happy about that.
06:24And I think it shows great foresight and insight.
06:29The National Institute for Health of the United States,
06:32we think that research in the U.S. is somehow always privately funded.
06:36But the National Institute for Health, which is a public organization,
06:40its budget, $47 billion.
06:43It's huge.
06:45If there are 40% cuts, that's not good news for anybody.
06:49Oh, it's, I mean, it's actually inconceivable.
06:56It's hard to believe that this is happening.
06:59And I can only hope that with the strong statements that the European,
07:05sorry, that the U.S. universities are now putting out,
07:08and it goes really across the board,
07:10that rationality will eventually prevail again.
07:14I mean, it is really a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
07:20It damages the leading position of the U.S. in research on all fronts.
07:27And I cannot believe that they will stick with this.
07:31So, the huge budget, you say, yes, it's a huge budget.
07:36It is indeed.
07:38But remember, if we're comparing this to national budgets,
07:42we have all the national budgets put together in Europe.
07:46So, we are competitive.
07:49We could be more competitive, of course.
07:51Does it match that sum that I mentioned, 47 billion?
07:58Well, it's the NIH.
08:00It's very hard to compare these numbers,
08:03because the NIH is only, as the name says, the life sciences.
08:07But it's all of the U.S.
08:09Whereas here, you know, we don't have anything comparable.
08:14Most European, we have a few granting agencies that fund life sciences,
08:20but most European agencies fund across the board.
08:23So, these numbers are very difficult to compare.
08:26You can, of course, compare the total budget that the U.S. spends
08:30compared to the total budget that the total spending in Europe
08:34on research and innovation, and there we're lagging behind.
08:38But it's good to hear that governments are considering
08:42to do some catching up there.
08:45It's really urgent and necessary.
08:46You're trained as a molecular biologist and worked on immunology.
08:51You said a minute ago something about a return to rationality.
08:57How do you explain the irrationality that pervades the fact
09:00that there is a bit of an attack on science,
09:02that the Secretary of Health in the U.S.
09:05is skeptical when it comes to vaccines?
09:08How do you explain?
09:09It's not about one person or one government,
09:13that there's this whiff of anti-science.
09:17I have to say, I cannot begin to explain it,
09:21and I have not heard any good explanations.
09:25It would be speculation,
09:29and I really cannot begin to understand
09:32how anybody can be so short-sighted and narrow-minded.
09:37I mean, research serves us all, and we know it.
09:41So there's no sense in it.
09:45There's no sense in it, you're saying.
09:47At this point in time, again,
09:49there's going to be real-world consequences
09:51if suddenly there's a halt to funding in key areas,
09:57in particular areas in what you work on,
09:59and things like immunology.
10:02Yes.
10:03Yes, of course there is.
10:04But, you know, research doesn't stop.
10:06It's a terrible hiatus,
10:09but research elsewhere in the world goes on.
10:12Even research in the U.S. will go on.
10:15It's damaging,
10:16and one must hope that there are no real lasting damaging actions
10:21like losing massive datas, you know.
10:23There are, this was also touched upon today.
10:29The collection of data takes time,
10:32is expensive,
10:33and they have to be kept in databases.
10:36And if they are endangered,
10:38for example,
10:39longitudinal studies on the causes of obesity
10:42and cures for obesity,
10:45if those are stopped and the data are lost,
10:48it's decades of work that is lost
10:51and potential for cures.
10:55And that is short-sighted,
10:57and that could be long-lasting.
11:00I think slowing down is bad.
11:03You know, we need every bit of research that is being done.
11:08But it's not lethal.
11:11It's not fatal.
11:12Losing data that have been collected,
11:14losing databases,
11:16not sharing these data,
11:17that is fatal,
11:19and we must hope that must not happen.
11:20One final question.
11:21You became president of the European Research Council,
11:24Mary Leptin,
11:25in 2021.
11:26It was still during the COVID era.
11:29What's changed?
11:30Again, this attitude towards science.
11:32In your experience,
11:34what's changed since then?
11:38Well, people have gone back into their labs,
11:40for one thing,
11:41which they couldn't during the peak COVID area.
11:44The other thing that's changed is,
11:46of course,
11:46that COVID has given us
11:48one of the very best examples
11:49for the value of blue-sky science,
11:53for which you don't see an immediate need.
11:57So the reason why Europe
11:59was able to develop two COVID vaccines,
12:03one, the Pfizer one that was developed by BioNTech,
