'Strange cognitive dissidence among the MAGA who are convinced to vote against their own interests'

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00:00Well, for some insight, I'm joined on set by Ellen Kuntz, a professor at French business

00:04school INSEC and the author of the book Portrait of Veep, the Incredible Story of Kamala Harris.

00:10Thank you so much for coming in this morning.

00:11Happy to be here.

00:13Now, the thing I have struggled to understand with this bill is that so many Republicans

00:17seemed really hesitant to pass it.

00:19A lot of them even mentioned all of the things about it that they thought were a bad idea.

00:22Why did they still vote for it?

00:24I mean, what made those Republicans fall in line?

00:26Well, unfortunately, many of them are up for re-election, so they fear for their own seats.

00:33I also believe that they fear the wrath of Donald Trump, and they don't want to be called out publicly.

00:38Some of them, like Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, were able to obtain things for their own state.

00:45So they were able to get some write-ins to the law to get a little extra something for their own state.

00:51But I have to say, as an American, one thing I've always really regretted about American culture

00:55is this idea that there is kind of a taste for always wanting to punish the poor.

01:01And there's a lot of disdain for people who are in need.

01:05So I think that this bill reflects that unfortunate attitude.

01:09And it also underlines something that's really just leads to a lot of cognitive dissonance,

01:15which is apparently the Republicans were supposed to be the ones interested in fiscal conservatism.

01:22Yeah, I mean, it made them, it's interesting that they, you know,

01:25this bill kind of flies in the face of one of their core principles.

01:28Yes.

01:29Is that kind of a reflection then of Trump's grip on the Republican Party and the way that he's transformed it?

01:34Well, I think the problem is maybe collectively we've lost sight of what taxes are for and why there are taxes.

01:42You know, today's July 4th.

01:43It's supposed to be the celebration of Independence Day.

01:45And I know that President Trump is using that to, you know, he'll be signing in the bill this afternoon.

01:51But it's really a shame.

01:54And the other thing that it reveals also is how his supporters, many of the MAGA,

01:58who are in poorer states or southern states or states that have higher social needs,

02:05were very much in favor of this bill that's going to clash, slash their own benefits.

02:11So a lot of strange cognitive dissonance among the MAGA and who are convinced to vote against their own interests.

02:22I wanted to ask about public opinion because, I mean, is it true that MAGA,

02:25that Trump supporters kind of also supported this bill?

02:28Or, I mean, wasn't, isn't, aren't some of the individual parts of it, though?

02:31I mean, people are against cutting Medicaid, right?

02:33They're against cutting.

02:34Well, MAGA is on Medicaid.

02:36Let's be clear.

02:37MAGA, you know, there are states that are higher contributors,

02:41for example, I'm from, you know, like New York and California.

02:44We contribute to some of the southern states that don't have as strong economies.

02:48So they actually need these things.

02:49I think there was something else at stake here.

02:51You know, back in Trump's first mandate, he was determined to roll back or undo what is called Obamacare,

02:58the Affordable Care Act, because it was President Obama.

03:01And he was unable to achieve it in the House and Senate.

03:04He was unable to achieve it at the level of the Supreme Court.

03:07So I think that this was ultimately a way to kind of put a really strong dent in Obamacare

03:12without being able to roll it back, because there will be about 17 million Americans

03:17who are going to have reduced health care.

03:20And you said, you know, a lot of these Republican senators and congressmen and women

03:24probably voted for this because they are up for re-election in the coming midterms.

03:28Couldn't this backfire, though, in a serious way?

03:30I mean, if people find their benefits cut, couldn't it go the other way,

03:33where voters say, hey, you voted for this bill that took away my welfare.

03:36I want you out.

03:38That could happen if they had the courage to continue to do their town halls,

03:43which, you know, when they receive the general public, they've kind of stopped that.

03:47I think a lot of it is really strong ideology.

03:50It's a lot of fantasy.

03:51It's a lot of, how do you say, you know, party discipline.

03:56Like, it's very important if you are declared as a Republican.

03:58It's just really important to stay on the Republican side, kind of no matter what they decide.

04:04And some of it might just be a little bit of everyday racism,

04:08because they think it's going to hurt minority communities that they may not be a part of.

04:13But ultimately, they're also going to get hurt as well.

04:16Do you think the Democrats, meanwhile, kind of put up enough of a fight?

04:19I mean, we saw Hakeem Jeffries, you know, making that eight-hour stand.

04:22But aside from that, I mean, did they really do enough?

04:24I think that they did what the 20th century would have demanded,

04:28but they haven't quite found the recipe for what they're going to need to really stand up to out-and-out authoritarianism.

04:37You see, it used to be more of a fair fight.

04:39They were bringing a knife to a knife fight.

04:41Now it looks like they're bringing a spoon to a knife fight.

04:43So it's hard on the Democrats right now to find their footing to really capture public opinion in a significant way.

04:50If the U.S. debt augments even more, which it's supposed to under this bill,

04:56I mean, to the tune of several trillion dollars,

04:58is that going to impact the standing of the U.S. on the world stage?

05:01I mean, do you think, coming from France, how are people looking at the U.S. because of this bill?

05:05Well, I think that because of a lot of the attitudes and the intention of the Trump administration,

05:11we've already really lost in the eyes of the world in terms of global standing, in terms of soft power.

05:18By the way, another thing to mention here is that this really militarizes the economy.

05:24It was mentioned in your report.

05:26So a lot more money is going to go to militarizing the police, for example.

05:30So the United States kind of all of a sudden is no longer what it used to be,

05:35and it's going to be difficult for a future administration if ever it gets back in Democrat hands

05:39to undo the damage of what's happening right now.

05:42How quickly do you think we're going to see the changes from this bill start to really impact the country?

05:46Well, there are impacts immediately because one thing that was mentioned is, you know, SNAP.

05:52It's basically food stamps.

05:53There are going to be people who are down and out, you know, poor women who may be alone with children,

05:58and all of a sudden their check is no longer in the mail.

06:01So I think it's cruel and mean-spirited, and there are a lot of people who don't have a voice

06:08who are not going to be captured in the media and are going to have to suffer in silence.

06:12It's a shame.

06:13And this is coming, as we've mentioned, on the 4th of July.

06:16How would you describe the mood in the U.S. as it celebrates its birthday this year?

06:21I think that there's a lot of questioning of what's happened in about 160 or 170 days here.

06:27For myself, I really fear that the federal government will no longer look anything like federal governments have looked in the past,

06:36and I think it's very much intentional.

06:37We saw Mike Johnson, who's head of the House, who is unwilling to exercise the congressional power that he has,

06:47really onboarding to this authoritarian play that Donald Trump is carrying out.

06:54And, you know, in the meantime, Donald Trump is making money on the side.

06:58That would have been front-page news every single minute of every single day in the past.

07:03He's selling watches, phones, sneakers.

07:06I said that on another channel, and I think the person maybe didn't believe me.

07:10They just thought it could possibly be true that I must have been making it up.

07:13It's totally true.

07:14You can find it online.

07:15You know, it's surreal, the amount of swag coming out of the White House.

07:18I think you summed it up quite well with the phrase cognitive dissonance.

07:22Ellen Kuntz, thank you again so much for coming on the program.

07:24Again, that's Ellen Kuntz, a professor at the French Business School INSEC,

07:28author of the book Portrait of Veep, the incredible story of Kamala Harris.

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