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Justice on Trial Season 1 Episode 1
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Short filmTranscript
00:00You
00:25My god Terrix are you okay?
00:30Terrix oh my god
00:45Terence was it a fight cuz you're pretty swollen here. It's okay. You're safe here
01:00Who did this to you?
01:10My father
01:14Not again
01:16We need to get Child Protective Services in here right away
01:21I'm Judy Scheindler before I was a judge on TV
01:29I was a judge in New York City for 15 years and a lawyer for 17 years before that while serving on both sides of the bench
01:37I learned that justice doesn't always end up feeling just
01:42Sometimes the impact of one decision by a police officer a lawyer or even a judge can change the way justice is delivered
01:49We're going to demonstrate this by taking landmark cases from actual crimes committed by real people
01:56And we'll recreate them without trial lawyers and yours truly is the trial judge
02:01While we're not going to recreate the trials verbatim all the court's ultimate decisions are accurate
02:07It will be up to you to decide whether the case was fair and the outcome
02:12Just real cases actual lawyers surprising verdicts
02:20Justice on trial
02:24This case is personal to me
02:27That's because I actually touched on it as a family court judge in 1988
02:33When I thought about cases we should profile in this series this one was first on my list
02:38The legal issue here is diplomatic immunity
02:42You see the little boy in this case Terence Karumba
02:45Was the son of a member of the diplomatic mission from the country of Zimbabwe
02:50According to international law high-level diplomats are not subject to the laws of the foreign country where they serve
02:57So they cannot be prosecuted for the crimes they commit
03:01But what about the rights of a child from Zimbabwe living in America and being abused by his father?
03:08After Terence Karumba was placed into protective custody and removed from his parents' home
03:14The first hearing on the state's demand that Terence be released from protective custody
03:20Was heard by a family court judge in Queens where the Karumbas lived
03:24That judge agreed with the state and ordered the child immediately returned to his father
03:30The child's lawyer asked me to reconsider that ruling in New York County where I worked
03:37Strongly suggesting that the child might be harmed or even killed if returned
03:43I reluctantly agreed
03:46Even though New York County technically, technically had no jurisdiction
03:53But I thought the optics of the risk to the child were worth rattling the cage
04:00Let's watch and see how the forces of justice and the rule of law collide
04:06Counsel note your appearance please
04:10For the petitioner Terence Karumba and the Child Protective Services, I'm Dan Mentzer
04:15Good morning, Your Honor, Larry Backman on behalf of the government
04:18Specifically, the State Department and by virtue of diplomatic immunity
04:23The father in this case, Floyd Karumba
04:26Thank you
04:27This is a child protective proceeding under the Family Court Act of the state of New York
04:32Terence Karumba is a nine-year-old boy who has allegedly been abused by his father
04:38Who happens to be a diplomat from the country of Zimbabwe
04:41Child Protective Services removed the child from his home and placed him in foster care
04:47The State Department on behalf of the United States government as well as Mr. Karumba
04:52Demand the immediate return of the child
04:54Alleging that this court has no jurisdiction to hear this case
04:58Based upon the Vienna Convention and diplomatic immunity
05:01Once I determine whether the child is an abused child and likely to be further injured or worse
05:08If returned to the family, I have to make a determination whether or not the law mandates
05:14That I return the child to his father or I can continue him in placement in foster care
05:20Until an entire trial is able to be held
05:23So that's where we are
05:24Am I correct, Counselor?
05:25That's correct, Your Honor
05:26Yes, Your Honor
05:27All right
05:27Counsel, do you wish to make an opening statement?
05:30I do, Your Honor
05:30I'll hear you
05:31As Your Honor noted, the reason we are here today is because a nine-year-old boy was brutally beaten
05:37By his own father
05:38In this courtroom, you're about to hear graphic testimony as to the nature of these vicious assaults
05:44You're going to see just what this man did to his own nine-year-old boy
05:48In this courtroom, you're going to see those scars on his back, which someday may heal
05:54But you're also going to hear about those scars that may never heal
05:58Those are the psychological scars that were inflicted on this boy by this man
06:03Now, the fact that the perpetrator of these assaults happens to be a diplomat that works for the Zimbabwe mission
06:10Doesn't change the fact that this young child's safety is in imminent danger if he were to be brought back to his father
06:19So what we're asking, Your Honor, to do is to maintain the current system where he's in foster care
06:25Until it's such time where he can get the therapy, where it's safe to return him to his home
06:30And this man will be prosecuted for what he's done
06:34Thank you, Your Honor
06:34Thank you
06:35Mr. Backman
06:36Yes, thank you, Your Honor
06:37The problem with this case is this court has no jurisdiction
06:41There's something called separation of powers
06:44The judiciary branch doesn't get to determine foreign policy considerations
06:50That's solely within the discretion of the executive branch and the State Department
06:55Diplomatic immunity is the cornerstone of diplomacy
07:00We don't set that aside, even for the welfare of one child
07:05As cold and as callous as that sounds, it protects 13,000 diplomats of the United States that are scattered around the globe
07:15This court does not have jurisdiction
07:17I would move right now for this court to dismiss this action
07:21Thank you
07:22I'm going to hold your motion in abeyance, sir, and start to take witnesses
07:25Counsel?
07:26Thank you, Your Honor
07:27The petitioner calls Darren Bronson
07:29Swear the witness, Kevin, please
07:32Yes, ma'am
07:33Raise your right hand, please
07:35You swear to tell the truth in these matters today?
07:37I do
07:38Thank you
07:38Have a seat
07:39You may inquire, sir
07:40Thank you, Your Honor
07:40And Mr. Bronson, were you working as a teacher at PS 178 on December 1st of last year?
07:46Yes
07:46Mr. Bronson, did anything unusual happen on that day with respect to one of your students?
07:51Yes
07:51One of my students, Terrence, came into the classroom that morning looking hurt
07:55He had a bruise on his forehead and his face was swollen
07:59Hey, hey, stop running
08:04Stop running
08:05Good morning, Mr. Karumba
08:14How are we doing today?
08:17Hey, Mr. Bronson
08:18Hey
08:19You okay, little man?
08:21What happened, Terrence?
08:29Did you get in a fight before school today?
08:34It's cool
08:35You can tell me
08:36I got you
08:37A promise
08:39It was
08:42My father
08:44Now, what did you do when you saw him in that condition?
08:52I immediately took him to the nurse's office
08:54And were you met with anyone in the nurse's office?
08:56Yes
08:57We were met by the school's guidance counselor
08:59Did anyone ask Terrence how he got in that condition?
09:02Bruised and cuts in his face?
09:03Yes
09:04The nurse asked him what happened and how did he get hurt
09:07And what did Terrence say?
09:08He said his father beat him
09:10Now, I'm going to call your attention, Mr. Bronson, to December 11th
09:14Did anything again happen that brought your attention to Terrence Karumba?
09:19Yes
09:19Yes, it did
09:20I saw a bruise and a cut
09:22And he looked hurt
09:24Oh, my God
09:25What did you do with Terrence?
09:26Well, I took him back to the nurse
09:28And she called the child welfare office
09:31Thank you, Mr. Bronson
09:33Mm-hmm
09:33May inquire, sir
09:34Yes
09:35All right, so, Mr. Bronson, as I understand it, sir, you're a teacher
09:38Yes
09:39And you have received training with respect to mandated reporting for child abuse, yes?
09:45Yes
09:45When you saw the injuries for the first time, did you comply with your mandated reporting obligations and call CPS?
09:53No
09:53And then when you received the child statement, my father beat me, did you call CPS?
10:01No, not the first time
10:02You didn't call CPS and you didn't call law enforcement, did you?
10:06No, that's not my job
10:07All right, so, let's switch gears to December 11th
10:11You observed Terrence injured again, yes?
10:15Yes
10:15This time, you took him again to the nurse
10:18And more injuries were discovered, is that right?
10:22Yes, that's right
10:22And this time, CPS was called, yes?
10:26Yes
10:26And the school called CPS in an effort to avoid civil liability on your part, is that right?
10:33No, we did it because it was the right thing to do
10:35But you didn't do that on December 1st, the right thing, did you?
10:38That's argumentative counsel, let's move on
10:40Nothing further
10:41Witness is excused, thank you very much
10:43Call your next witness, sir
10:47The petitioner calls Taylor Neal
10:49You may inquire, sir
10:53Thank you, Your Honor
10:54Miss Neal, are you employed?
10:55Yes
10:56And where do you work?
10:57I'm a school nurse at PS 178 in Queens
10:59Could you please describe for us the circumstances under which you first met Terrence?
11:03His teacher brought him in on December 1st because his face was bruised
11:07Did you ask Terrence how he got bruised?
11:09Yes, I did
11:10He said his father hit him
11:11And what did you do?
11:13I immediately called the guidance counselor and they called their parents
11:16Were you present when the parents came to school?
11:19Yes
11:19Mr. Karamba, thank you for meeting with us today
11:21It's attache, Karamba, actually
11:24Of course, representing the country of Zimbabwe, I believe
11:30That is correct
11:31We're here to talk about your son
11:34What has he done this time?
11:38It's what you did, Mr. Karamba
11:40This morning, Terrence came to school with a noticeably bruised and swollen face
11:47And he indicated to a teacher that the person who inflicted these wounds was his father
11:52And what of it?
11:56What of it?
11:58So you admit it then?
12:00Yes
12:00I admit to disciplining my son
12:02That is what a parent is supposed to do
12:05When a child needs correction, it is a parent's responsibility to provide it
12:11Striking a person repeatedly in the face is considered assault in this country
12:15And it's our responsibility at this school to protect the children under our care
12:19Assault
12:20No, this is not assault
12:22It is love
12:23This is what a parent does who cares about their child in my country
12:28You see, you do not understand our ways
12:31This is how my father raised me
12:34And instead of becoming a criminal or a drug addict like you are teaching him to be in this school
12:39I became the diplomatic attache to the United States of America
12:43Well, here in America, sir, it's child abuse
12:46And if this ever happens again, we will immediately call Child Protective Services
12:50And they will remove Terrence from your home
12:52Was there a time that you saw Terrence Karamba again later on that month?
13:00Yes, I saw him about ten days after that
13:02And what happened when you saw Terrence Karamba?
13:04His teacher brought him in again because he had bruising to his face
13:07And as I took him to my office, I put my hand on his back and he visibly winced
13:12That's when I knew something was wrong and I asked him to remove his sweatshirt and his t-shirt
13:15And I was absolutely horrified by what I saw
13:18Miss Neal, if you can try and tell the judge exactly what you saw when you removed Terrence's shirt
13:23He had scars and waltz on his back
13:25After observing those scars on his back, what did you and the guidance counselor do?
13:30We immediately called CPS
13:32Thank you, Miss Neal
13:33Absolutely
13:33Now, Miss Neal, December 1st, that's when you first saw Terrence, is that right?
13:39Yes, sir
13:39And there were bruises about his face?
13:41Yes
13:41And when you saw the bruises, you then asked the child how that happened?
13:46And the child said, my father beat me or my father hit me?
13:49Yes
13:50And, of course, as a mandated reporter, you called CPS, did you not?
13:54Not the first time, no. I called the guidance counselor
13:56So nobody at the school, as far as you knew, on December 1st called CPS, correct?
14:04Correct
14:04And you all sent the child home with the abuser on December 1st. Do I have that right?
14:11Yes, sir. His father said that he was a diplomat and there was nothing we can do
14:14And on December 11th, the child was brought in again with injuries?
14:19Yes
14:19Any reports that you wrote to forward to CPS on this day?
14:24No
14:24No further questions. Witness is now excused
14:27Thank you
14:28Call your next witness, Mr. Mensah
14:31Petitioner calls Jamie Gilbert
14:33You may inquire, sir
14:39Thank you, Your Honor. Ms. Gilbert, where are you employed?
14:41I am a social worker for the city of New York
14:44And what does a social worker for the city of New York do?
14:47First, we investigate allegations of child abuse in the home
14:50Then if we think it's warranted, we remove the abused children from their home and place them into foster care
14:57Ms. Gilbert, I want to call your attention to December 11th of this past year
15:00Did you get involved with the investigation into an allegation of abuse involving an individual named Terrence Caramba?
15:07Yes, I did
15:08And what did you observe, if anything, as to the physical condition of Terrence?
15:12Terrence had bruises on his face
15:14He had about 15 to 20 scars in various stages of healing on his back
15:21Ms. Gilbert, did you ask Terrence how he got those injuries?
15:25Yes, I did
15:26And what did Terrence tell you as to how he got those injuries you're talking about?
15:30Terrence told me that his dad had been beating him on a regular basis
15:35I'm sorry, I'll leave you on my dinner next time
15:38This is the consequence of disrespecting your mother
15:42Oh, mother
15:50Stop!
16:01Did Terrence tell you any other places that he had been hit by his father other than on the back?
16:07He said he would sometimes hit him in the head
16:09He would hit him with his fists and sometimes a belt
16:12It's just that I don't like cabbage
16:16For cheeseburgers?
16:20What do you have to say for yourself?
16:26I can't hear you!
16:32Sorry
16:37Did you examine Terrence's body with an eye toward recording those injuries?
16:46I examined his body and I took pictures
16:49Your Honor, if I may approach
16:51You may approach, you wouldn't
16:52I'm going to show you what's been previously marked petitioners A, B and C
16:56Three photographs, and I'd ask you just to take a look at it
16:59When you're done, please look up
17:04Ms. Gilbert, do you recognize those pictures?
17:06Yes, I do
17:07And what do you recognize those photographs to be of?
17:09They are of Terrence's body
17:12Ms. Gilbert, when Terrence told you that his father had bound his wrists prior to hanging him from this pipe in the basement
17:19Did you see any physical evidence of that on his wrists?
17:23Yes, there were scars on his wrists
17:26When Terrence told you that he had been choked by his father, did you see any physical evidence of that?
17:33Yes, I did, there were marks on his neck
17:35Now, Ms. Gilbert, after you spoke with Terrence, did you make a determination as to Terrence Karambas' safety and well-being?
17:43I did
17:44And what was that?
17:45I determined that Terrence was in imminent danger to his welfare if he stayed living with his parents
17:50Thank you, Ms. Gilbert, I have no further questions
17:52Gross
17:53So, Ms. Gilbert, that's the standard, isn't it? Imminent risk of serious bodily injury or death
18:01That equates to removal
18:03Yes, absolutely
18:04Now, you made this determination based upon your observations of the child's injuries, yes?
18:10Yes
18:11And you were aware that Terrence's father had diplomatic immunity, is that right?
18:17I was informed
18:18When you were informed of that, you made the conscious decision of not calling law enforcement because of the immunity, is that right?
18:26I had him removed from his home, whether he was a diplomat or not. My obligation is to remove the child out of danger and that is what I did
18:36Now, further questions?
18:37Thank you very much. The witness is excused. Mr. Menser?
18:41Petitioner calls Dr. Riley Hills
18:48Can you inquire, Mr. Menser?
18:49Dr. Hills, what type of work do you do?
18:51I am a board-certified child psychologist
18:53And what does a board-certified child psychologist do?
18:57I treat children who have been removed from the home due to allegations of abuse
19:01Have you, during the course of your employment, treated a boy named Terrence?
19:05Yes
19:06Did Terrence describe for you any abuse he has received by his family?
19:10He did. He said that his father would beat him with his fist, with belts, an electrical cord
19:16Now, did Terrence tell you what the rest of his family was doing while his dad began to whip him?
19:24He told me that his father made his mother and his sisters watch and ridicule him
19:30Is the physical damage that you observed in Terrence the most important thing to you as his treating therapist?
19:37No, it's the psychological damage
19:39And what do you mean by that?
19:40Well, he believes that his family hates him
19:42Now, at some point, you had to tell Terrence that he had to go back home
19:46Yes
19:47Now, when he actually went back to have this meeting to go back to his parents, did he react in any way in the car ride over?
19:54He did. He tried to jump out of the car while I was moving
19:57And when he got to the building where he was supposed to be turned over to his parents, did he do anything?
20:02He attempted to jump out of a second story window
20:05To avoid seeing his parents?
20:06That is correct
20:07And did you make a determination as to whether it's safe for Terrence to return to his parents now?
20:13Yes
20:14And what is that determination?
20:15That it is not safe to return him
20:17Thank you, Dr. Hills
20:18May inquire, sir
20:19Now, in terms of your duties, you treat children of abuse and you attempt to protect them, is that right?
20:29Yes
20:30And in this case, would you say that removal from the home is equally damaging to the child as is the physical trauma inflicted by the father?
20:41I mean, it depends on the relationship and we deal with it on a case-by-case basis, so
20:45And what specifically have you done with respect to reunification therapy for Terrence and the family?
20:53We've made attempts to reunite Terrence with his mother, but he's still in fear of her
20:58How many attempts?
20:59Two attempts
21:00And in your opinion, given the circumstances, that's sufficient?
21:04Yes
21:05No further questions
21:06The witness is excused
21:09Is that your final witness, sir?
21:10Yes, Your Honor, the petitioner rests
21:12Do you want to renew your motion to dismiss, Counselor?
21:15I would, Your Honor, at this point in time
21:17Now it's denied
21:18The government's demand that the case be dismissed because the father and child were protected by diplomatic immunity was just denied by me
21:26The state, which was demanding the immediate return of the child to the father, was then forced to continue with the hearing
21:33Please call your first witness
21:35Yes, Your Honor, at this time I would call Kirby Davidson to the stand
21:40Mr. Backman, you may inquire, sir
21:42Thank you, Your Honor
21:43Mr. Davidson, if you would, can you please tell the court your current profession or occupation?
21:48I work with the United States State Department
21:51And with respect to that profession, sir, tell the court, if you would, what kind of training you've received and what it's encompassed
21:58I received extensive training in the areas of diplomatic immunity, as it was afforded in the Vienna Treaty of 1961
22:06Can you explain what that is?
22:07Well, diplomatic immunity was established so that sending states could send their diplomats and be assured that they would be free from criminal and civil prosecution of the states
22:17Let me ask you this, how many diplomats and their families do we have abroad representing the United States?
22:23Upwards of 13,000
22:25And we are concerned with upholding the provisions of the Vienna Convention for protection of those diplomats, is that right?
22:34That is correct
22:35Now, in this particular case, the nation of Zimbabwe itself has sent the State Department a request to have the child returned to the father
22:46and returned to the country of origin, is that correct?
22:49That is correct
22:50And does diplomatic immunity trump this court's decision to keep this child in protective custody?
22:58It does, yes
22:59Why is that?
23:00Well, because the thing is we need to protect our diplomats around the world
23:04So, hypothetically, if our foreign diplomats were, say, in a country that enforced headscarves for women
23:13And one of our diplomats or other family members were to go out without headscarf, they could be arrested and prosecuted
23:21And we don't want that, so we have to afford the same here
23:23We can't break the rules
23:25This was agreed to in 1961 in the Vienna Treaty and we need to adhere to it
23:29No further questions?
23:31Any questions?
23:32Oh, yes, Your Honor
23:34Mr. Davison, you first got involved in this case by receiving a call from the Zimbabwe mission
23:39Notifying you that the son of one of their diplomats was abducted
23:45That is correct
23:46And you, of course, as a representative from the State Department, wanted to find out what happened
23:50Why was this child removed?
23:52Yes
23:53You conducted your own investigation, right?
23:55That's correct
23:56And you found that he was removed for his own safety because the boy had accused his father of stripping him down naked
24:03And beating him over the naked back with an extension cord
24:07You learned that to be the case, right?
24:09Yes, I did
24:10And you found that those child protective workers felt that his life was in danger if he continued to live with his father
24:17And that's why they removed him
24:18Yes
24:19And you further found that the mission of Zimbabwe demanded that we immediately release him back to his family
24:29And if he didn't, they reserved the right to retaliate against our diplomats
24:36That is correct
24:37You got a crisis on your hand
24:38Yes, we do
24:39Good job
24:40How do we deal with this?
24:41And you found out you had options
24:42One of those options was you can expel the diplomat
24:46Problem is with that option, you expel the diplomat
24:49You got to send the child back to the home of the man who'd been brutalizing, right?
24:54Yes
24:55But you had another option
24:56You could have simply asked Zimbabwe to waive immunity in this case
25:01Yes
25:02Had you asked and they gave you immunity, you could have kept this child in foster care, right?
25:11That's correct
25:12So we never even asked them to waive immunity, did we? No
25:18In fact, the representative from Zimbabwe was specifically asked what would happen if this judge gives them what you're asking for and returns this child to Zimbabwe
25:30What the representative from Zimbabwe said when specifically asked whether Terence would go back to the man who hung him up and whipped him, they said no comment
25:44Correct
25:45The truth is that if this court gives you what you're asking for and sends this boy back to Zimbabwe, you really don't know what's going to happen to him
25:53No
25:54Thank you
25:55Witnesses excused
25:56Thank you
25:57Next witness, please
25:58I would call Floyd Karamba to the stand, Your Honor
26:06You may inquire, sir
26:08Thank you, Your Honor
26:09All right, Mr. Karamba, what is your current profession or occupation, sir?
26:13I am a diplomat representing the Republic of Zimbabwe
26:18Do you have children?
26:19I do
26:20How many?
26:21Three
26:22I have a nine-year-old son and two daughters ages seven and three
26:27And your boy and your older daughter, they go to school in Queens. Is that correct?
26:32That is correct
26:33And tell me on December 1st were you called to come down to the school?
26:40Yes
26:41And when you got to the school, were you questioned?
26:44Yes
26:45And what kind of questions were asked of you?
26:48They asked me if I knew how my son got these bruises on his face and they asked me if I beat my son
26:56And what was your response to that question?
26:58My response was no
27:00And did they in fact tell you that Terence stated to them, my father beats me?
27:07Yes
27:08Do you discipline your son?
27:10Yes
27:11I spank my son on his rear end above his clothing
27:16So they let you take the children home with you, is that right?
27:22Yes, they did
27:23Now, ten days later, did you get another call?
27:26Yes
27:27And on December 11th were you again confronted by the school with allegations of additional child abuse?
27:35Yes
27:36And what did you say?
27:37I told them that I did not beat my son
27:40And no one between December 1st when the school allegedly heard Terence say, my dad beats me and they saw bruises on his face
27:51No law enforcement, no police officer came knocking and saying, we are here to investigate child abuse allegation
27:59No
28:00And CPS didn't come down either, did they?
28:03No, they did not
28:04On December 11th, did things change? Was your son taken away from you?
28:08Yes
28:09Have you since demanded the city of New York to return your son to you?
28:14Yes
28:15Now, in your culture, sir, does that culture allow and permit corporal punishment of a child?
28:22Yes
28:23In what way?
28:24You can do a number of things, but spanking a child above the clothing is one of those methods
28:30And were you in fact disciplined in that matter by your father growing up?
28:35Yes, I was
28:36And when you discipline him, do you tie him up to a pipe in your basement and then whip him with an electrical cord?
28:43No
28:44Do you believe, sir, that if Terence is returned to you, he is in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death if he's returned to you?
28:55Not at all
28:56No further questions?
28:57You may inquire, sir
28:58Mr. Cromer, did I hear that right? That you did nothing more than spank your son Terence over the clothes in the behind?
29:06Yes, this is where he was struck, yes
29:09So now, you've heard the testimony of his teacher who said that he observed cuts and bruising to his face, right?
29:16Yes
29:17You've heard the testimony of Taylor Neal, who testified that Terence said you caused those injuries to his face
29:26Yes
29:27And you've also heard the testimony of Miss Gilbert, the social worker, who testified that Terence told her that you strung him up naked down in the basement and beat him with an extension cord, right?
29:40Yes
29:41But that's all a pack of lies
29:43I believe it to be all lies, yes
29:46So your nine-year-old son lied to his teacher when he said that you beat him?
29:52Unfortunately, Terence does lie
29:54Now, you talked to this court about corporal punishment. You said in your country, this is a method for disciplining children
30:02Yes
30:03So you believe that this corporal punishment, this method of discipline worked for you, right?
30:09Yes, my father would use corporal punishment, he would spank me with a belt and I turned out just fine
30:16When you say you turned out just fine, you're a successful diplomat, right?
30:19Yes
30:20But you're also a man who beats his own children, aren't you?
30:23I discipline my children
30:24Step back
30:25You're also a man whose own kid would rather jump out of a moving car than come back and live with you, right?
30:31I have never seen my son jump out of a car and I do not believe this behavior
30:36Now, as somebody who has only spanked his son over a closed behind with a belt
30:46Your Honor, can I please approach?
30:47Absolutely
30:48Can you tell me, Mr. Karamba, how your son got those?
31:00At this time, I'd like to invoke my diplomatic immunity
31:03Counselor
31:04Your Honor, I believe he has a right to do that at any stage of the proceedings
31:08Well, Mr. Backman, he does have that right, he chose to waive that right when you called him as a witness
31:14If he now chooses as a result of evidence that he has seen to invoke his right, that's fine
31:20But I'm going to strike his entire testimony
31:22In that case, Your Honor, I'd like to ask for a five-minute recess
31:25Allow me sufficient time to talk to my client
31:28Absolutely
31:29Thank you
31:30Let me explain what just happened here
31:34Floyd Karamba declined to answer certain questions on cross-examination
31:39Invoking diplomatic immunity
31:42But the law doesn't allow you to pick and choose what questions you will and will not answer
31:47If he decides to invoke diplomatic status, his entire testimony would be stricken
31:53Let's see what he decides
31:55Counselor
31:57Your Honor, I've spoken to my client at this point
32:00He advises me out of the love for his children and the fact that he wants his son back
32:05He is waiving his diplomatic status so that he can get his child back
32:10Fine, Mr. Mencer, you want to ask a question again?
32:13Yes
32:14You've seen the picture?
32:15I have
32:16Again, Mr. Karamba
32:17How did Terence get those whip marks?
32:19What happens in my house stays in my house
32:22Are you now owning up to what you did?
32:24What happens in my house stays in my house
32:27You did whip that boy
32:28Sir, what happens in my house stays in my house
32:32Terence wasn't lying, you are
32:34Checked an argumentative
32:35Yeah, the last part is stricken
32:37All right, Mr. Karamba, you can take your seat
32:40Mr. Mencer, would you like to make a closing argument, sir?
32:46Thank you, Your Honor
32:48The reality here is there really is no dispute over what happened
32:52This man, Floyd Karamba, battered his child
32:54He abused his child
32:55He placed his child's life in danger
32:58His health and safety are in jeopardy
33:00Were he to be sent back to Zimbabwe
33:03And the State Department knows this
33:05Yet, the State Department would rather maintain their cozy relationship with the country of Zimbabwe
33:11By not even asking for a waiver of immunity
33:15That's all we're asking here for
33:17Is for them to start doing their job
33:20And ask Zimbabwe for a waiver of immunity here
33:23So that this man can be prosecuted
33:25And more importantly, that this child can be protected
33:28Because if he's sent back, his life will be in danger
33:31Thank you, Your Honor
33:32Thank you, Mr. Backman
33:34Quite frankly, Judge, I find Consul's argument offensive
33:39The implications are that the State Department does not want to protect this child
33:44And that couldn't be further from the truth
33:47The State Department wants this child protected
33:51Just not on U.S. soil
33:53The protection has to come from the sending state
33:57That's federal law
33:59And because of separation of powers
34:01As callous as it may sound
34:03Protection for this child must take place in Zimbabwe
34:08Given their demand for the child's return
34:11This court is divested of jurisdiction submitted
34:16The scope of this hearing is a limited one to determine whether or not
34:20For the immediate future this child's life would be at risk of further abuse
34:25Either physical or psychological if he would return home
34:28Seems to me that this country has failed this child not once but twice
34:33The City of New York failed the child on December 1st
34:36There were visible signs of abuse
34:39And rather than doing a full evaluation of the child in the nurse's office
34:44The nurse, the social worker in school, and the teacher
34:48Chose to bring the father in without examining the child further
34:53Which would have shown clearly a pattern of consistent abuse over a long period of time
35:00Because those scars, some are fresh, some are old
35:04They were certainly there on December 1st
35:06Failure number one of a governmental agency towards this child
35:10Some ten days later the child was in fact beaten again by his father
35:15Who for all intents and purposes acknowledges that in his outburst here
35:20Because he considers whatever happens in his home inviolate from inspection of authority
35:26The government of the United States of America has the obligation in my view
35:32To at least attempt to reach out to the government in Zimbabwe
35:36Show their representative these photographs
35:39And say we would like some time to ensure that the child if returned is safe
35:45The government of the United States chose not to do that
35:48Two failures
35:50I think that it is the responsibility of the government to do exactly what Mr. Menser is requesting
35:55Which is to ask the sending state and that is Zimbabwe
35:58To take a fresh look at these fresh welts
36:01In the interim I find that the child is in fact at risk of being further abused and neglected
36:06We will pick a trial date for a full trial on this date
36:09Until that time the child remand to child protective services is continued
36:13Well believe it or not my ruling caused a bit of a firestorm
36:20When I continued the child in protective custody
36:23The United States State Department immediately appealed
36:26And the case was heard in federal court
36:29This time the key legal concept was called the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution
36:34Which establishes that federal laws and treaties made under federal authority
36:40Supersede any laws made by a state
36:43And state courts must defer to those federal laws and treaties
36:47But the question for me remained
36:50What about the issue of a little boy who everyone now admitted had been abused?
36:56Here's how it went
36:59Counsel, note your appearances
37:01Good morning, Your Honors, Larry Backman on behalf of the government
37:04Representing the United States Department of State
37:06Good morning, for the respondent Terence Karamba in the city of New York, I'm Dan Menser
37:11Mr. Backman, you may proceed with your opening statement
37:14Thank you, Your Honors
37:15Floyd Karamba is a diplomatic envoy from the nation of Zimbabwe
37:21As such, he has absolute diplomatic immunity precluding him from being either criminally charged or civilly charged
37:31And the Supremacy Clause prevents the state or the city of New York from attempting to dictate in foreign policy
37:41And the only entity that can waive diplomatic immunity is the sending country
37:49The nation of Zimbabwe
37:51And because they've refused to do that, there is no waiver of immunity
37:57And Floyd Karamba and his child Terence Karamba are not subject of the city of New York
38:04Thank you
38:05Thank you, Mr. Backman
38:06Mr. Menser, please
38:08Thank you, Judge
38:09If you give the State Department what they're asking for and send Terence Karamba back to Zimbabwe, his life will be in danger
38:18Because Floyd Karamba doesn't think he did anything wrong
38:23So what we want this court to do is to compel the State Department to do what they haven't done yet
38:30And that is to ask Zimbabwe for a waiver of immunity so that we can prosecute Floyd Karamba for what he's done to his son
38:39And more importantly, with a waiver of immunity, Terence Karamba will continue to receive the therapy he so desperately needs
38:49Thank you
38:50Thank you, Mr. Menser
38:51We will now recess to deliberate
38:54We are not a unanimous court
38:59Judge DiMango and I are in the majority
39:02And Judge DiMango will present the majority opinion
39:05And Judge Acker will then give the dissent
39:08The essence of this appeal involves the issue of diplomatic immunity
39:12As it pertains to child protective proceedings conducted pursuant to the Family Court Act
39:17The alleged abuse suffered by the child Terence at the hands of his father in the name of discipline
39:23Indeed offends even the hardest of sensibilities
39:26But the question presented here is
39:29Did the Family Court have the authority to exercise jurisdiction over the parties to hear the case
39:36And to reach a decision on the merits in light of the assertions of diplomatic immunity
39:42By both the United States and the sending state Zimbabwe
39:46The answer to the question is a resounding no
39:50Diplomatic immunity is considered the cornerstone of diplomacy
39:54It is intended to protect the diplomat and their families from the service of civil process
40:00Criminal prosecution and the jurisdiction of the courts of the foreign states in which they are stationed
40:07Were we to affirm the decision of the Family Court
40:10Our decision could be viewed as condoning their misapplication of the law
40:14And so based upon the foregoing reasons
40:17It is with a heavy heart that the lower court's decision is reversed
40:23My colleagues are right to point out the importance of the doctrine of diplomatic immunity
40:29And how critical that doctrine is to our diplomatic services and international interests around the world
40:36But they make a false and unnecessary choice
40:39The city's request won't compromise our diplomats
40:42The city simply seeks a stay so that all of the various interests at stake here may be heard
40:48Diplomats and their families have a right to immunity
40:52But diplomats and their families also have a right to asylum
40:56And to have those claims fairly and properly adjudicated
41:00That is the law too
41:02Here in this country
41:04A child endures this
41:06And we can't maintain a simple stay that would permit him to complete a request for help
41:12And to satisfy the legal requirements of properly hearing an asylum claim
41:16If the State Department's commitment to human rights is to mean anything
41:19If it cares to send a message that this will not be tolerated in these United States
41:24It has the duty to try to bring this abuser to justice
41:30It has the duty to ask
41:32I respectfully dissent
41:34How could our government place this child in harm's way without protection?
41:54Even though Terence Karamba was ultimately sent back to Zimbabwe
41:58My ruling, which was to have the child remain in protective custody
42:02Caused the case to delay as it wound its way through the court system
42:07This enabled certain safeguards to be put in place for the child's protection
42:11When he was ultimately returned to his family
42:14The complex issue of diplomatic immunity continues to plague the justice system
42:20Every year it seems, a new case of a diplomat committing a horrendous crime
42:26Is protected by diplomatic immunity
42:29Sometimes the rule of law, when you factor in common sense
42:33Just doesn't equal justice
42:50Everyone who is managed to the academic immunity
42:52Inputing theÛ’
42:54On the long term of war, when you're in jail
42:56To get into account the fascination
42:58The END
42:59The END
43:00The END
43:01The END
43:04The END
43:06The END
43:08The END
43:10The END
43:11The END
43:12The END
43:15The END
43:17The END
43:19Transcription by CastingWords
43:49CastingWords
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