00:0042,000 tonnes of toxic waste, including arsenic, mercury, cyanide, are all stored in former mines in eastern France.
00:08A ticking time bomb say many scientists who warned that the heavy metals could seep into nearby water systems
00:14with untold damage on local wildlife and human health.
00:17Earlier this month, the European Court ruled against removing the hazardous material,
00:22siding with the French government's wish to smother it with tonnes of concrete
00:25to try and stop the waste seeping out and into Europe's largest aquifer.
00:30But will that prevent disaster or will it simply leave the problem to the future?
00:33And how near in the future does it become a serious worry?
00:36The ground in the area is in motion with the walls of the mine set to be gradually caving in.
00:41To get some insight, we can speak now to Swiss geologist who is specialised in toxic and nuclear waste
00:45and who was in fact appointed by the French government as part of a steering committee on the mine.
00:49Marcus Boussard, thanks so much for your time.
00:51Can I start simply by asking you, how dangerous is this?
00:55Well, that's a difficult question to answer because 42,000 cubic tons is not a real big amount of waste.
01:11But the whole philosophy is totally wrong.
01:16That's the philosophy of delusion is the solution to pollution.
01:22That's a former philosophy and it doesn't work today.
01:27It's too dangerous.
01:28And so many people, many scientists, say we have to recover this waste and we have to treat it.
01:40Would that be the safest solution then to bring this waste up and treat it?
01:44And if so, why isn't the French government doing that?
01:46That is a very good question.
01:51We don't understand why the French government has not ordered to retrieve this waste.
01:59What we know that there were a series of waste that had been illegally deposited inside the caverns.
02:10And we suspect that there are more waste that had illegally disposed.
02:18And that's a real reason why actually the French government wants to seal this underground storage site.
02:30Indeed, because the estimated cost of removal, I believe, is around 65 million euros, which, you know, doesn't sound completely undoable.
02:38But there are some scientists say that actually bringing up certain toxic materials would be more dangerous with the question of how to treat it.
02:46The current plan then is to bury it under concrete.
02:48Is this a good solution?
02:51No, absolutely not.
02:54Concrete doesn't work in the longer term, especially under the conditions of salt chemistry.
03:03We are inside a salt mine.
03:09And when the flooding, the water is coming, you have very, very corrosive environment.
03:16So we suspect more than that this concrete is used to seal something, to avoid that persons can't control what inside is effectively.
03:37Is there any way of making that toxic waste less toxic even before eventually the site might be sealed?
03:46No, you have, you have treatment methods.
03:52You have many treatment methods, but you have to recover this waste first.
04:00So the work to retrieve the waste is absolutely needed in order to make them the recovery of the toxics.
04:11So if this plan currently goes ahead, and you have heard the European government of human rights sign off on this plan,
04:18the French government then smothers it with concrete, what's going to happen next?
04:22Yeah, probably we have to wait until the mine will be flooded.
04:33And I don't think that there is more change to avoid a new ecological tragedy.
04:42Is this, the mine we're talking about is one in Alsace in the eastern France.
04:51Are there other mines of the kind around France and indeed Europe?
04:55Yes, especially in Germany.
04:57Germany is the country with the major mines with toxic waste all over Europe.
05:08And that's a long-term, really a big long-term problem, environmental problem,
05:16because the toxicity of chemical waste doesn't disappear.
05:23So nobody knows the legate for the future.
05:29Nobody knows how to deal with it.
05:32And meanwhile, we're continuing, of course, to develop more waste, toxic waste, nuclear waste.
05:38We're pitching nuclear even as an environmental solution when it comes to energy.
05:44Where are we coming in terms of developing ways to deal with the increasing waste that we're producing?
05:49Well, I think we have to go in the circular economy and to retrieve all these toxics and to treat them.
06:02We have really changed fundamentally our dealing with waste.
06:09We cannot continue to put our waste deep in the geology.
06:20And we see, for example, today the consequences of the waste strategies of the past.
06:29For example, the dumping of radioactive barrels in the North Atlantic.
06:36And we see that there weren't a solution.
06:46The problem of the waste every time comes back after decades and decades and decades.
06:53And we have just to change fundamentally this system.
06:59And what do we do today?
07:00I mean, in the past, when this waste was buried in the mine, did people know that that was a dangerous option?
07:05And how do we deal with our waste today?
07:07Is a safe system now in place?
07:10Well, we have some waste that are better today.
07:17For example, the incineration of organic toxics.
07:23That works.
07:24But, for example, minerals like mercury and so you have to recover it.
07:32And that's done, but not consequently.
07:36And that's done in rich countries, but not in poor countries.
07:40So fundamentally, rich countries should show how to deal with the waste in the future.
07:52And I think we have to think about waste when we are producing it and not to make waste and then dispose it off.
08:04Overconsumption, the major problem for the environment in general.
08:07So when you hear of nuclear power being touted as a green form of energy or greener than coal, what's your reaction?
08:15Well, it depends on the type of reactor.
08:21In Switzerland, we have the development of a reactor type that could burn up the waste, the high-level waste, the spent fuel.
08:30And that's an option to study and to look, to deal with waste.
08:36But what we can't do is to develop techniques that have this type of waste, of very dangerous waste, and to leave it to the future generations.
08:52We can't do that more.
08:53And, you know, we described this mine here in France as a ticking time bomb.
08:59How long do you think is left on that?
09:02Oh, I think the question is related to the flooding of the mine.
09:09And I think the flooding of the mine will occur in the next decades, maybe two, three hundred years.
09:18And then it's to the future generation to deal with this pollution.
09:26And that's the same thing we see, for example, the bombs in the ammunitions and bombs, which was left after World War I and World War II in the Atlantic.
09:41And all this ammunition is now coming to the shores.
09:46So, as I said, you can not continue to produce waste and to dispose it.
09:59We have to treat the waste.
10:02And we have to go inside a circular economy.
10:07That's a basic changement.
10:09Marcus Busser, Swiss geologist specialist in toxic and nuclear waste.
10:15Thanks so much for your time and joining us here on France 24.
10:18Very much appreciated.
10:21We're going to take a short break now.
10:22We'll be back in just a few minutes with more updates from around the world.
