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00:00We can now bring in Jeffrey Sachs, professor at Columbia University.
00:04Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
00:07Now, yesterday we had Donald Trump who put out a statement saying that the tone and spirit of the call were excellent,
00:12his call with Vladimir Putin, and that Russia and Ukraine would now essentially be sitting down to figure out an end to this war.
00:19Is Washington washing its hands clean of the diplomatic efforts it's undertaken?
00:23Well, I think Washington is saying there should be an agreement on peace, not simply a short-term ceasefire.
00:35And this is what President Trump has rightly been saying.
00:38The problem in Europe is that the Europeans don't speak about any conditions of peace at all,
00:45other than completely unrealistic positions that make no sense.
00:50Europe is still stuck as if the last five years had not happened.
00:56Europe is still pushing for NATO enlargement, which is not going to happen.
01:02It's pushing for European boots on the ground in Ukraine, which is not going to happen.
01:08So the problem in Europe is sanctions, sanctions, sanctions, but no sensible talk about a peace agreement.
01:15President Trump, on the other hand, has put on the table conditions for peace, including Ukrainian neutrality,
01:23which is obviously the way to get to peace in Ukraine.
01:28And it's time for Europe to stop, I don't know, the 97th zillionth round of sanctions
01:35and get on with what are the conditions for actually having peace.
01:40And that starts with neutrality.
01:42Professor Sachs, I want to jump in there because, yes, Europe has agreed to a 17th round of sanctions today,
01:48and they say an 18th round of sanctions is in the work.
01:52These sanctions haven't really halted Russia's, changed Russia's thinking or halted its offensive on the ground in Ukraine.
02:01Ukraine now acknowledges that this conflict will be settled on the negotiating table.
02:05It didn't think so maybe a year ago.
02:07That seems to have changed.
02:09There is a shift in thinking from the Ukrainian perspective, but when it comes to Russia's red lines, those don't seem to change.
02:17Well, there are three points to what needs to be done.
02:20One is neutrality.
02:22The second is security guarantees.
02:24And the third is the settlement on territories.
02:27Let's get down to the specifics.
02:29And Europe, I mean, Macron and Mertz and Starmer and Tusk, all they do is they meet with Zelensky every day,
02:39but they don't talk about the terms of the settlements on the questions of neutrality, security and territory.
02:48But all they do is repeat the same lines.
02:50But to be fair, from the Ukrainian perspective, they're scared that if they remain neutral or whatever,
02:56then tomorrow you're going to have Russia that's going to come in and try and invade the country once again.
03:00I know, but that's what you negotiate about, you know, anyone involved in negotiations.
03:06Who is going to oversee whatever eventual settlement comes into force?
03:11Because what the French and British are proposing is essentially boots on the ground of France and Britain in Ukraine.
03:19And that is something that Russia will never accept.
03:22So we're back to square one.
03:24What's ridiculous about the French and the British position is that they don't go to meet and speak with the Russians about these issues.
03:33These are issues of real concern.
03:35But all they do is shout at the sidelines.
03:37But Donald Trump has spoken to the Russians.
03:39But Donald Trump has spoken to the Russians and we still don't know what is palatable for them.
03:46Donald Trump has spoken with the Russians and done a good job of saying, let's get down to negotiations.
03:51The Europeans have not said that yet.
03:53This is the big mistake of Europe.
03:56So this is the big mistake.
03:59When it comes to what Ukraine would have to agree to, would it have to be giving up Crimea?
04:07Because it doesn't seem that they'd be willing to let go of the territory that is under Russian occupation right now.
04:13Well, certainly, Ukraine will have to agree to neutrality because the whole cause of this war was this senseless, ridiculous push of NATO up to Russia's border.
04:27This is obvious and clear.
04:29And everybody involved in this for the last 15 years privately knows this.
04:33But the European leaders won't say it publicly.
04:36So this is the first thing.
04:37They will have to agree to neutrality.
04:40The idea of NATO enlargement never should have been put on the table.
04:43It was a cause of war from the start.
04:47Second, they...
04:49No, I was just saying, given that Donald Trump has effectively ruled out Ukraine joining NATO, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's going to happen, even though there are some European leaders who continue to suggest that it could one day.
05:01I agree.
05:03I agree.
05:04And as long as they continue to suggest that it could one day, it holds back peace.
05:09Let's get to a real agreement.
05:12You know, one European leader said to me privately, oh, it's not going to happen.
05:16I said, well, why don't you tell your own people that?
05:19He said, hmm, that's an interesting thought.
05:22The truth is that a lot is said in private that is not said in public.
05:26The European leaders need to stop the warmongering, the 17th, the 18th round of sanctions, and talk about how to make peace.
05:35What are their concerns?
05:37Yes, it's a good question.
05:39If we make peace, how do you know the war won't start again?
05:42That's something you negotiate at the peace table.
05:46You don't just shout on the sidelines that you have doubts.
05:49You get down to negotiations.
05:50Diplomats have done this for millennia, but the Europeans won't even engage in diplomacy right now.
05:57They meet with Zelensky a hundred times, and Putin, not at all.
06:01So do you think that the fact that the Europeans have had this posturing is why they have not been included at whatever settlement between Russia and Ukraine?
06:15Is that why?
06:16Because the U.S. has been successful up until now.
06:20Of course.
06:22And by the way, the Europeans don't need the United States to talk to Russia.
06:26They need to pick up the phone or use my Zoom account or buy a plane ticket or invite President Putin to meet someplace.
06:32It's the Europeans that have rejected direct discussions with Putin for years.
06:38The Europeans, they don't need American permission for that.
06:41They just need to have diplomacy.
06:43They forgot diplomacy many years ago.
06:46And they need to get back to diplomacy.
06:48But, Professor Sachs, final question, because just last week we had the U.S. President Donald Trump, who was in the Middle East, and he said this war is not going to end until he meets with Vladimir Putin.
06:58Then he had this phone call yesterday and suggested, no, it's not up to me.
07:01It's up to them to figure it out.
07:03If he just meets Putin, I mean, considering that Joe Biden was the president and, you know, under his leadership, the war in Ukraine broke out.
07:13Russia went and invaded Putin, invaded Ukraine in 2022.
07:18Shouldn't he be meeting Vladimir Putin and ending it?
07:24Yeah, the war broke out under Biden and Biden missed every chance to end the war.
07:29He, in fact, talked the Ukrainians out of agreeing in the Istanbul process to an agreement which was almost negotiated.
07:38We need diplomacy now.
07:40The Europeans don't have to wait on the United States to engage directly with the Russians.
07:45The United States should continue to engage directly with the Russians.
07:49But I'll say one thing.
07:50The U.S. military aid for Ukraine is basically at an end.
07:54And that's the real fact.
07:57For Ukraine to survive right now, to stop losing so many lives, to stop having its territorial destruction, we need a peace agreement.
08:06We should be hurrying to get that accomplished.
08:09And Europe should stop endless sanctions and engage in actual diplomacy.
08:14Very, very short answer.
08:16Do you think that your U.S. military aid to Ukraine is going to wind up?
08:21Oh, absolutely.
08:23It's basically coming to a trickle because what was voted under Biden is finishing up and Trump's not going to go back and ask for more.
08:31Professor Sachs, thank you so much for joining us on the program today.