Zuby on Masculinity, Censorship & The Global Awakening!🔥
Join Brian Rose & Zuby as they dive deep into the truth about masculinity 💪, the fight against censorship 🚫🗣️, and the mass awakening happening worldwide 🌍⚡. Is free speech under attack? Can we reclaim our power? 💡👊
💥 This is a conversation you don’t want to miss!
🍿 Watch the Full Episode: londonreal.tv/zuby
💰 The Investment Club: londonreal.tv/club
💰Crypto & DeFi Academy: londonreal.tv/defi
Join Brian Rose & Zuby as they dive deep into the truth about masculinity 💪, the fight against censorship 🚫🗣️, and the mass awakening happening worldwide 🌍⚡. Is free speech under attack? Can we reclaim our power? 💡👊
💥 This is a conversation you don’t want to miss!
🍿 Watch the Full Episode: londonreal.tv/zuby
💰 The Investment Club: londonreal.tv/club
💰Crypto & DeFi Academy: londonreal.tv/defi
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PeopleTranscript
00:00The only people who want to censor and want to ban and want to de-platform people
00:04are those who are hiding something.
00:07From music to media, Zuby has built a global audience by speaking his mind.
00:11A rapper, author, and entrepreneur,
00:13he's known for his unfiltered takes on success, culture, and personal growth.
00:17You first hit my radar when I saw you doing a deadlift,
00:22identifying as a woman, and thereby breaking the world record.
00:25What's a dude with a computer science degree from Oxford doing that for?
00:30People across the world thought it was hilarious.
00:32In February 2019, it was not a popular position to speak out
00:37or even question some of this stuff.
00:39Now, in 2025, you can now say that it's goofy to have pronouns in your bio.
00:44You can now say that there's only two genders,
00:45and that men don't get pregnant, and women can't have penises,
00:48and men shouldn't be in women's sports.
00:50Most people won't give you that much pushback.
00:51They'll be like, yeah, it's a bit silly, isn't it?
00:53Saying that in mid-2020, oh boy.
00:56Let's talk about Black Lives Matter.
00:57BLM was a scam.
00:58You are using tragedy to line your own pocket.
01:03It's all wrapped up under the idea of protecting other people and being empathetic.
01:10It's the same narrative that they used with COVID.
01:13How was it?
01:13You don't want to go out and infect your friends, your family, your community.
01:18So just stay home.
01:18Stay home, save lives.
01:20That's why it's effective.
01:21I guess most people didn't say something
01:23because they were worried about being quote-unquote canceled.
01:26I was just saying the things that I know other people were thinking,
01:29the things that I was thinking, and that was it.
01:33What's Zuby doing in five years from now?
01:35Everything that I'm already doing, bigger and better and on a larger scale.
01:39Music, books, podcasts, and doing interviews.
01:42Lord willing, I'm going to have many more decades to make an impact on this world
01:46and encourage others to do the same.
01:48That's when we take the world and our species to a whole new level.
01:56The world is changing.
01:59Inspiration is everywhere.
02:05It has never been so easy to connect, share, and bring people together.
02:12We're learning from others and finding the best in ourselves.
02:17We're learning from each other.
02:20We're learning from each other.
02:23We're learning from each other.
02:27We're learning from each other.
02:30Challenging our beliefs.
02:33Sharing our vulnerability.
02:37Overcoming our fears.
02:42Transforming ourselves, so we can transform the world.
02:49How far can we go?
02:51This is London Real.
02:52I am Brian Rose.
02:53as my guest today is.
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04:01This is London Real.
04:02I am Brian Rose.
04:03My guest today is Zuby, the musician, author, entrepreneur, and public speaker.
04:08You are the host of Real Talk with Zuby, where you've interviewed high-profile guests like
04:12Elon Musk and Andrew Tate, amassing 2 million followers and 50 million views.
04:17You're known for your honest and inspiring perspective and promote responsibility, resilience,
04:21and positivity.
04:22You've appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience, Tucker Carlson, and The Candace Owens Show.
04:27As an independent artist, you've released six albums, performed over 100 gigs in 10
04:32countries, and shared the stage with industry giants like Tech N9ne, Acala, and The Far
04:36Side.
04:37You're also a successful author, having published two books, Strong Advice, Zuby's Guide to
04:42Fitness for Everybody, and the children's book, The Candy Calamity.
04:46You've said that in order to build a better world, we need to have tough conversations
04:50and be open to other people's ideas.
04:52Ultimately, you believe freedom, discipline, and critical thinking are the keys to success,
04:57and real strength comes from self-mastery and speaking the truth.
05:01Zuby, welcome to London Real in Dubai.
05:04Thank you for the intro, Brian.
05:05Happy to be here.
05:06Great to have you.
05:07I think you first hit my radar in 2019 when I saw a video of you that I think lots of
05:15people saw of you doing a deadlift, it wasn't a small deadlift, it was like 280 kgs, identifying
05:24as a woman and thereby breaking the world record.
05:28That's the first time I ever saw you, and I was like, who the hell is this guy?
05:31And I'm just wondering, what's a dude with a computer science degree from Oxford doing
05:36that for?
05:37Sure.
05:38Well, I wish it was 280.
05:40The video was actually 230, although my personal best at the time was 275.
05:46And look, in the mid-2010s is really when I started to notice the Western world in particular
05:53shifting into a strange direction.
05:55It was in the very early stages of the mainstreaming of what people now refer to as wokeness.
06:02At the time, some people were calling it cultural Marxism, a lot of people were calling it the
06:05social justice movement, you were hearing about SJWs, social justice warriors, I never
06:10hear that term anymore now.
06:12But it was the relatively early stages of concepts like critical race theory, transgender
06:20ideology, super extreme elements of, I don't know, some people call it third or even fourth
06:28wave feminism, strange ideas about race, gender, sexuality, all of that stuff was really coming
06:34to a head.
06:35It was coming out the fringes of academia, and it was really going mainstream.
06:39One of the things that was actually a major catalyst to it, particularly on the gender
06:47ideology side, was actually the whole Caitlyn Jenner situation.
06:51So I think that was 2015 when Caitlyn Jenner won Woman of the Year after being a woman
06:58for less than a year.
07:00And one of the most bizarre things I found about that whole situation, which people seem
07:05to have forgotten about, was just that no one asked, what exactly does this mean?
07:10So all of the magazines, all of the newspapers, all of the TV stations, at any time it was
07:16being talked about, it was just like, wow, this is amazing, stunning, brave, she, her,
07:22wonderful, Caitlyn, go.
07:24And I'm kind of like, isn't this the guy who was Bruce Jenner who won Olympic medals and
07:31has been a man for 60-ish years at the time?
07:35Even the whole idea of, I identify as a woman, what does that mean?
07:40It was like everyone just either tacitly accepted it or celebrated it or just shut up and didn't
07:46ask any questions because they didn't want to be called a bigot.
07:51Going a little beyond that into later 2015, 2016, is when I started noticing the situation
07:59happening in sports.
08:00So there was an MMA fighter, Fallon Fox, who had previously competed in the male category
08:05who was then identifying as a woman and competing in MMA and causing some serious damage to
08:12some women.
08:13There were stories happening in the world of athletics and weightlifting, all of these
08:18different sports.
08:19I started to just notice this stuff happening early.
08:21And that's just one side of it.
08:23There was the strange conversations that were going on around race.
08:26So my entire life being brought up both in Saudi Arabia and in the UK and just being
08:31raised the way I was, through the 90s, through the 2000s, even into the early 2010s, it seems
08:37like racism has been dying out for many, many decades at this point.
08:45And suddenly people were being told, whether you're white or you're black or you're whatever
08:50race or ethnicity you are, all of a sudden you are supposed to care about race again
08:54and you were supposed to judge people to some degree based on their race or treat people
08:59somehow differently based on their race.
09:01It was very antithetical to everything that I had been raised with and what I'd experienced
09:06in school and in university.
09:09And again, this wasn't just coming from some weird fringe.
09:13These notions were being promoted in universities in particular, but also it was seeping into
09:20schools.
09:21It was seeping into the media discourse.
09:23It was starting to be pushed by companies, corporations, governments were starting to
09:29promote identity politics in all sorts of ways.
09:32Similarly, I mean, when I was a kid or when I was a teen, you'd hear about the LGB movement
09:39and then it became LGBT and then it became LGBTQ and then it became LGBTQI and they kept
09:44adding more and more letters.
09:46And again, for the past few decades, the notion had been, look, some people are gay, some
09:53people are same-sex attracted, they shouldn't be mistreated, they shouldn't be discriminated
09:56against, they shouldn't be bullied or gay bashed or whatever it is.
10:00It's like, yeah, cool, I'm on board with that, right?
10:03I'm not on board with persecuting or discriminating against people.
10:08But then it got pushed further than that.
10:10It went beyond the whole gay marriage debate, which I think was mostly settled in the West
10:16by around the mid-2010s.
10:19And then it had just sort of, the train went past the station and it just started being,
10:23you know, men can become women, women can be men, you have to, people can make up their
10:27own pronouns.
10:28In fact, there aren't just two genders anymore now, there's infinite.
10:31It just started getting really weird and I started noticing all this and speaking about
10:35it to people, mainly in private, just everyday conversations with friends and family and
10:40stuff.
10:41And then it just got to a point, particularly, you know, it kept increasing, 2017, 2018,
10:48and it got to a point where I realized that, okay, this is not just, there's something
10:53weird going on here and it's strange that not a lot of people are pushing back against
10:58this because some of these ideas are nonsensical and are actually dangerous because you are
11:06asking and demanding people to even go as far as suspending reality and outright lying
11:12about something as essential as basic human biology.
11:16And this is going to have very severe consequences.
11:18So in late 2018, I just started to speak up a little bit more on my platforms, particularly
11:25on Twitter.
11:26So I've been on Twitter since, you know, now X, I've been on there since 2009.
11:30I've been on social media in general for 20 years at this point.
11:33I joined Facebook in 2004.
11:35So I've been on social media a long time, but I mainly was just using it as a vehicle
11:38to connect with my fans, promote my music, put out the occasional music video, let people
11:43know where I'm going to be performing, that kind of stuff.
11:45I never viewed myself as any type of cultural warrior or political figure or anything like
11:51that.
11:52I never thought that my ideas were even particularly interesting.
11:55I mean, to this day, I think 90% of what I put out there on social media and say on podcasts
12:00or say on stages is what should be common sense.
12:03I often joke that, you know, I'm not a, you know, I'm not a radical or an extremist.
12:07I'm a normal person from 2005.
12:10And yeah, I just started to, oh, at the same time, of course, you'd had Brexit happen in
12:15the UK at this point.
12:17You'd had the first Trump election happen and all of the strange response to that of
12:23just, it was a very similar narrative in both countries where it was just like, well, anyone
12:28who voted for this is racist or is a bigot or is hateful.
12:32And I was like, even if you don't support Brexit or you don't support Trump, that's
12:36a really stupid and asinine way to view your own country, your own population, but also
12:45this issue.
12:46It's just so closed minded, right?
12:48If there's an issue and 50% of people are on this side of it and 50% of people are on
12:52that side of it, and I'm going to simply conclude that, well, everyone who disagrees with me
12:58is not just an idiot, but is driven by some type of animus, they're racist, they're white
13:03supremacist, they're hateful, they're sexist, they're misogynist.
13:08I can't think of any issue where that is the case.
13:12Human beings are not quite so simple.
13:14And big media machines were pushing these narratives as well, and people who I thought
13:19were pretty smart and intelligent were going with these conclusions and narratives.
13:24So there were just all of these things happening simultaneously where I was just like, man,
13:28this is strange.
13:29We need more common sense.
13:30We need more voices.
13:31So I started to lend my voice to it.
13:33Fast forward a little bit into February 2019.
13:37I'm standing at my pop-up shop where I've been promoting my music and my merchandise,
13:41and it was early morning.
13:43I'd just come back from the gym and the mall was quiet.
13:48It's like 9.30 a.m. in the morning.
13:50Not a lot of people are out shopping yet.
13:51So I'm just scrolling through my social media feeds and I see two different stories of males
13:58competing in female sports in the USA and winning medals.
14:02And I'm just like, this is so stupid.
14:05This is the dumbest thing.
14:06And then my brain just goes, huh, I wonder what the British women's deadlift record is.
14:09Like, I've got a good deadlift.
14:11I wonder what the record is in my weight class.
14:12So I just did a quick Google search and I saw that it was, I think it was 210 kilos
14:18was the British women's deadlift record.
14:20And I was like, oh, well, my PB is, I can lift 65 kilos more than that.
14:24And I actually already had a video on my phone from one of my previous sessions of me pulling
14:27230.
14:29So I just took out my phone.
14:30I had 19,000 followers on Twitter at the time, about 50,000 across social media.
14:35And I just typed a bit of a joke tweet.
14:37I just said, you know, I keep hearing about how biological men have no strength advantage
14:40over women in 2019.
14:42So watch me destroy the British women deadlift record without trying.
14:45P.S.
14:46I identified as a woman while lifting the weight.
14:48Don't be a bigot.
14:49I just put it out there like I put out all my other posts.
14:52I thought it'll get a couple of LOLs, you know, maybe a few likes, a few shares.
14:58And I created a monster.
15:01Within a matter of hours, the video had over 100,000 views and then 200,000, 400,000, 500.
15:07It went up to multi millions of views.
15:10By the following day, I was being contacted by mainstream media channels, the Sunday Times,
15:17BBC, Sky News, Fox News.
15:19Hey, we want to talk to you about your deadlift tweet.
15:22We want to talk to you about transgender women competing in women's sports.
15:26We want to talk to you about why you posted this.
15:28And I just said yes to everything, every offer, every radio slot, every TV slot, any podcast
15:33that wanted to talk to me.
15:34I was just like, sure, I'll talk to you.
15:37And initially, the conversations were focused very much around that issue, which was actually
15:41very being hotly contested at the time because the the Olympics was going to be coming up
15:47in the following year, the 2020 Olympics, which I believe ended up being delayed because
15:50of the whole pandemic situation.
15:53But it was it turned out the timing of that post actually hit the intersection of a lot
15:59of things that were going on.
16:01So the tweet went viral in all of these different worlds.
16:04It went viral in the political world.
16:06It went viral in the sort of social, cultural commentary world.
16:09It went viral in the feminist spaces of the Internet.
16:13It went viral in the, you know, the whole weird trans community thing.
16:18It just UK, USA, Australia, Canada, any country that had been having this debate around transgender
16:27ideology, female identifying men competing in women's sports, whatever, it just blew
16:32up.
16:33And I think because at this time, you know, six years on now, a lot more people are willing
16:38to discuss this issue and talk about it.
16:40But you have to remember that in February 2019, it was not a popular position to speak
16:46out or even question some of this stuff.
16:48We saw something very similar happen the next year with a different issue.
16:52And so I was one of the first people with a significant platform who just early on didn't
16:59just go the route of giving the biological and logical explanation as to why this is
17:05a bad idea, but just took the idea and kind of ran with it.
17:08So instead of yes, I can obviously explain to someone why it's stupid to have males compete
17:13in women's sports, but I'm just going to take your logic and I'm going to run with
17:17it.
17:18And it also ended up being a bit of a checkmate maneuver because even the people who had been
17:22promoting this ideology, if you ask them what is a woman, they'll tell you a woman is anyone
17:29who identifies as a woman.
17:30And if a man identifies as a woman, he's a woman.
17:33That's been their whole narrative.
17:34That was the Caitlyn Jenner narrative.
17:36And so I was like, cool, I'm not going to get mad at you.
17:39Cool.
17:40I'm taking that.
17:41Boom.
17:42Give me my record.
17:44It was this checkmate move where you either had to go, well, OK, this person is not actually
17:49a woman and this is silly, or you have to acquiesce and go, oh, well, I guess if she
17:57identifies as a woman, then this is valid.
18:00And so it just led to this gigantic wave of media opportunities.
18:06Joe Rogan discovered it, talked about it on his podcast, invited me on.
18:10Tucker Carlson, when he was still working at Fox News, he did a whole segment on it.
18:15Ben Shapiro did a segment on it.
18:17Steven Crowder, like all of these people, predominantly in the more conservative media
18:21space, people across the world thought it was hilarious.
18:26Even people on the more left and progressive side, it was just such a, I think the Post
18:32just kind of nailed it.
18:34So yeah, it just went super viral.
18:37It went crazy viral.
18:39And I took advantage of the opportunities that were in front of me.
18:42At this stage, of course, I already had lots of music out.
18:44I'd started my podcast at this point.
18:47I'd built up a good presence on social media.
18:49So it wasn't like the tweet came from...
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19:29It far exceeded expectations, without question.
19:38I was someone who had nothing else interesting about them.
19:43So when I was able to do these interviews and speak about other issues and so on, people
19:47were like, oh, OK, this guy's smart.
19:48Oh, he's got an interesting background.
19:49He's a British guy from, you know, British Nigerian guy raised in Saudi Arabia, studied
19:54at Oxford University, a musician, so on.
19:57So people got to know me.
19:58People got to know my personality.
20:00And six years later on, here we are.
20:03People still want to talk to me.
20:06That was the upside of that, perhaps.
20:07What was the backlash?
20:09Because I know at one point Twitter suspended you for maybe another comment you made.
20:13And I'm sure you got lots of hate on the back of that.
20:17And I'm sure also as you continue to talk about how you felt over the next year or two,
20:22because more events happen in 2020, that you got more of that as well.
20:25I'm just curious, what was that like?
20:27Also Twitter back then wasn't owned by Musk.
20:30And we forget that maybe the reason all of these narratives propagated was because of
20:34the tech companies and the media companies, which were almost all heavily left-leaning
20:39or what Musk called the mind virus, you know, that it was exporting.
20:43I think we also forget how big that was.
20:45Yeah. What were some of the issues you faced there?
20:49It was 99.9% positive.
20:50OK.
20:51And I'll tell you something interesting, Brian.
20:53I mean, when I was going on some of these mainstream stations, particularly with BBC.
20:57Yeah.
20:58Because, you know, with BBC in the UK, they are, they have to do their best to be impartial
21:03and whatever issue they have, they try to present both sides rather than just one side of it.
21:09And when the cameras were off and the microphones were off, the people were like, the amount
21:14of people, women in particular, women in particular were like, thank you.
21:20Thank you so much for what you're saying.
21:22Thank you so much.
21:23This is absurd.
21:25You know, because they either can't or feel like they can't speak up on it.
21:31But again, in the background, they're looking at these issues and they're just like, this is absurd.
21:37The idea that a big man like myself or yourself can one day just say, I'm a woman and everyone,
21:45no one's meant to ask a question.
21:46Everyone's just supposed to refer to us as she, her, whatever it is.
21:51You could have fathered children, but you're just supposed to be a woman now.
21:54And everyone, society as a whole, is just supposed to go with this.
21:58No questions.
21:59It's hard to think of something that's more absurd than this, but that was where we were.
22:06And so a lot of people were just afraid.
22:09A lot of people were afraid.
22:11And the thing is, as well, is I'm very, I don't have any ill will in my heart.
22:18So when I talk about issues, whether they are contentious or controversial, I don't
22:23need to dance around too much or hide anything.
22:26I'm not some hateful bigot who hates some particular group or even individual and is
22:31trying to pretend that I don't.
22:34I don't.
22:35I'm simply someone who seeks the truth and aims to speak the truth and aims to maneuver
22:39in a way in the world that is right and that is righteous.
22:43I'm not perfect.
22:45Nobody's perfect.
22:46But I just do my best with that.
22:47I don't have some evil ulterior motive and I'm not trying to, you know, I'm not hateful.
22:50I'm not a bigot.
22:51I'm not, whatever name they try to throw at me, it doesn't stick because anyone who's
22:55met me, anyone who's spoken to me, anyone who's interacted with me, which is millions
22:58of people around the world at this point, you know, it's like, okay, pull it up.
23:03I don't even delete my tweets.
23:05Like if you can find out of those 200,000 posts I have out there, you'll find me being
23:10hateful.
23:11Right.
23:12You know, you won't find it.
23:13You'll find very much the opposite.
23:14At the same time, I can say that this is absurd and this is a bad idea.
23:19And so the backlash was, you know, there was some backlash, of course, you know, I've had
23:24people try to say that I'm a transphobe or I've been called a white supremacist, strange
23:28one, you know, any, any ism or phobe, it's been thrown at me many, many times at this
23:35point, you know, how much of that stuff was even organic versus astroturfed.
23:38I don't know.
23:40But there wasn't really any real pushback because what would the pushback be?
23:45Like I said, if people are like, well, you're not actually a woman, they're undermining
23:51their own ideology.
23:53By their own definition, they're being transphobic.
23:55If I say I'm a woman and I insist that I'm a woman and they deny that, I'm like, hey,
24:01isn't that your own definition of bigotry and transphobia?
24:06Or like I said, they have to acquiesce, in which case, yeah, I'm the strongest woman
24:10in Britain, which is also comical.
24:13So the pushback was not as much, nowhere near as much as I think people may have thought.
24:19And I think it's because there was nothing aggressive or hateful or bigoted at all in
24:27not just the post itself, but the follow-up interviews and things that I did, all these
24:30media appearances.
24:32And some of the stations, you know, you could tell they tried to insinuate somehow, you
24:37know, you know how they do their interviews, right?
24:39They try to sort of push you to, they almost like want you to say something bigoted so
24:43that they can be like, ah, we got him.
24:44That's why he did it.
24:45And it's like, no, you're not going to get me on that.
24:48Because I can just speak totally honestly and I don't need to guard my words too much
24:52because I know what my motivations are.
24:55I'll speak the truth.
24:56If I have a point that I make and someone wants to question it or challenge it or they
25:00feel a different way, completely fine.
25:02I'm not trying to censor anyone.
25:03I'm not trying to shut anybody down.
25:05I don't need to play that game.
25:06Truth is on my side on this one.
25:08So yeah, it's fascinating how much things have changed in a relatively short time.
25:15Of course, going into 2020, that was a whole different era, which again, I was one of the
25:21few people with a big platform early on who was asking questions about what was going
25:28on with these lockdowns and talking early about how, look, if it's not going to be the
25:34two weeks to slow the spread or two weeks to flatten the curve, whatever narratives
25:38they were putting out there in different countries, I was like, if you give them that inch, they're
25:43going to take a mile.
25:45And that is exactly what happened.
25:47It went from suggestions to mandates to punishing people who didn't want to go along with certain
25:56narratives and do certain things.
25:58And again, across my different platforms, Instagram, YouTube, my podcast, Twitter at
26:04the time, Facebook, I was just saying the things that I know other people were thinking,
26:10the things that I was thinking, asking the questions that journalists should have been
26:13asking if they were not captured and were not cowards.
26:17And that was it.
26:19So yeah, it's weird how I've ended up in this position because I never set out to become,
26:26I don't know, a voice for the people or a voice of reason or whatever it is.
26:30There's a lot of people who view me that way now.
26:32And I guess I appreciate it.
26:35I'm honored by it.
26:37But I don't think it should be so rare.
26:40I mean, I was brought up and raised to, if I see something that I don't think is right
26:46or someone is trying to push me or prod me to do something that goes against my values
26:51or that isn't right, then I say something.
26:55I do something.
26:56I don't fear backlash in that way.
26:59I've had so many people ask, you know, were you worried about being deplatformed?
27:02You worried about this?
27:03Worried about...
27:04I'm like, no.
27:05Like, I'm not.
27:07Yeah, you know, I don't want to be, I don't want my account suspended.
27:12And I'm not going to do anything that's such a clear, I'm not going to blatantly violate
27:18rules and give them an easy excuse to ban me or suspend me from something.
27:22But I'm also not going to be a coward.
27:24I'm going to say what needs to be said.
27:25I'm going to ask what I think needs to be asked if I feel that it's important.
27:28And that's simply how I operate.
27:31I guess most people didn't say something because they were worried about being, quote unquote,
27:35canceled.
27:37I think the first demonstration of canceling was Me Too.
27:40Maybe that was the first kind of mainstream thing where people were losing their jobs
27:44and they could see people losing their entire livelihoods when they were accused, some rightfully,
27:49some wrongfully.
27:50And I'm guessing that's why everybody was a little freaked out at that point.
27:54They would let so many weird narratives go right in front of them without saying something.
27:59You know what?
28:00I think that's secondary or tertiary.
28:02I think the first thing is that what's interesting with the baskets of issues that we've talked
28:09about is they all fly under the banner of compassion and care.
28:15So most people, thankfully, are fairly compassionate and caring and empathetic.
28:21Most people don't want to hurt other individuals.
28:25Most people don't want to unnecessarily be mean or cruel or disrespectful or insulting.
28:31That's generally a good instinct.
28:34So what I always found really insidious about everything that's under the banner of the
28:39woke movement, and I do think it's comparable to what happened during the COVID era, is
28:44it's all wrapped up under the idea of protecting other people and being kind and being compassionate
28:53and being empathetic.
28:56That's how it's all framed.
28:57And so they kind of hijack people's natural instinct towards kindness and compassion towards
29:04their fellow man.
29:05So most people, they don't see how insidious it is.
29:11It's the same Black Lives Matter framing.
29:15How are you going to speak out against something that's called Black Lives Matter?
29:19I believe in that.
29:20I'm not a bigot.
29:21Of course, whether you're black, whether you're white, whatever color you are, unless you're
29:26actually a mean person, if you just hear that name, you hear those words together,
29:31it sounds good.
29:32Why wouldn't you support that?
29:34It's genius.
29:35It's genius.
29:36And it's the same narrative that they use with all these different things.
29:40With COVID, how was it?
29:41It was like, protect other people, the greater good.
29:45You don't want to go out and infect your friends, your family, your community.
29:50So just stay home.
29:51Stay home, save lives.
29:53Don't go outside.
29:54Going outside, it's not about you.
29:56It's about everybody else.
29:58And so to stick your head above that parapet and go, no, I think this is nonsense.
30:02I don't think this is right.
30:03I don't think that they're doing this out of compassion and kindness and public health.
30:07What?
30:08You want grandma to die?
30:09Yeah.
30:10What?
30:11You don't care about this?
30:12You don't, like every, that's why it's so effective and so insidious.
30:17So most people don't even see through that first layer because they just accept it at
30:22face value.
30:24And beyond that, those even who do, most people don't want to be called names.
30:29It's not pleasant to be attacked online or offline or to be shunned by family or friends
30:34or to be called names in the media or just on social media or just in your private circles.
30:39People care about their reputations.
30:41No one wants to, it's why that thing of just, you know, I don't like that person.
30:45I'm going to call them a racist.
30:46I'm going to call them a white supremacist.
30:47I'm going to call them a Nazi.
30:48I'm going to call them a sexist.
30:51People don't want that label attached to them.
30:53And that's why it's effective.
30:54Right?
30:55Remember that we're going around calling everyone an anti-vaxxer.
30:56I mean, I don't even think that's the worst thing to be, but it was just like, we're just
31:01going to stick a label, anti-science or you're anti-science.
31:05You're a grandma killer.
31:06You're this, you're that.
31:07It's labels that will get you shunned by the rest of society.
31:12That's what the tactic is.
31:14It's the same tactic on all these different things.
31:15It's just different labels.
31:17So I think that is why it takes such a long time for what's interesting with each of these
31:22narratives is that now in 2025, you can now say BLM was a scam.
31:28You can say that, and you're not going to get a lot of pushback.
31:31Saying that in mid 2020, oh boy.
31:34Oh my gosh.
31:35Right?
31:36You can now, you can now question masks.
31:37You can now question lockdowns.
31:39You can now question the vaccine itself and certainly the mandates.
31:42You can criticize Fauci.
31:43You can criticize whoever was the, whoever were the public health officials in your country.
31:47You can question it all now.
31:49You can say that the social distancing thing was nonsense.
31:51You can laugh at the silly mask thing, but doing it at the time, being early on all that,
31:56it wasn't popular.
31:57You can now say that it's goofy to have pronouns in your bio.
32:00You can now say that there's only two genders and that men don't get pregnant and women
32:03can't have penises and men shouldn't be in women's sports.
32:06Most people won't give you that much pushback.
32:07They'll be like, yeah, it's a bit silly, isn't it?
32:10Five, six years ago, yeah.
32:13So we've actually made a lot of, it's weird to even call it progress because it's stupid
32:21that we even had to have so many of these debates to begin with.
32:26But I think we're at a really different position now than we were as recently as 2021, let
32:32alone 2018, 2017.
32:35So I'm curious to see where we go in this next decade.
32:38Yeah.
32:39And I definitely want to talk about where you think we're going.
32:41Let's talk about Black Lives Matter because 2020 was a crazy year and then in the middle
32:46of a crazy year, it got crazier.
32:48And I remember this protest near Parliament Square where they had the horses out and the
32:54Black Lives Matter people were protesting.
32:56In the UK?
32:57Yeah, it was in the UK.
32:58Isn't that even crazier?
32:59Yeah.
33:00And I think it was like May maybe or June, something like that.
33:04So in the middle of COVID, obviously everybody's freaking out.
33:07You're broadcasting, calling it out.
33:09We're broadcasting, calling it out.
33:10And then all of a sudden Black Lives Matter happens and then there's protests out there
33:14and all of that's going on.
33:16And that was a whole other issue where I got everybody asking them questions about race.
33:21What was that like for you and what did you say and what were, you must have had controversy
33:26around that?
33:27Yeah.
33:28Of all of the, I've said a lot of things over the last 20 years publicly.
33:34I've put out a lot of social media posts.
33:36I've said a lot of things on podcasts, on TV, on stages.
33:43My early pushback against Black Lives Matter was actually the most controversial, more
33:49than anything I said about anything to do with COVID, more than anything I said to do
33:53with other weird race narratives or critical race theory, more than anything I said about
34:00the excesses of the LGBTQ movement or transgenderism or anything like that.
34:05My pushback against BLM was the one where like some people, people I truly love and
34:11respect were, thought I'd gone off the deep end.
34:15And what's remarkable about it perhaps even more is that BLM is not a new org and it wasn't
34:20started in 2020.
34:21BLM has been going on for about, since the mid 2010s.
34:26If I remember correctly, I think it was after the Michael Brown shooting, I might be wrong
34:29here.
34:30Someone can fact check me, but I think it was after the Michael Brown shooting in the
34:34USA, which I think was, I want to say that was 2014 or 2015.
34:41I think that's when the whole BLM thing started.
34:45And I'd looked into the movement early on, like in the mid 2010s, before anyone knew
34:50me for any social commentary or anything, I'd just done some basic research on it.
34:53And I knew that it was an organization quite literally run by Marxists and that it wasn't
34:58really about looking out for black people.
35:01They had weird LGBTQ stuff in there.
35:03They had lots of anti-capitalistic stuff in there talking about wanting to dismantle capitalism.
35:09They had something on their own website in their charter talking about wanting to disrupt
35:15or dismantle the nuclear family, talking about abolishing the police.
35:20All of these ideas, like radical, actual radical left-wing ideas.
35:25So I sussed early on that, yeah, this organization is, it's not what it says on the tin.
35:31It's like a radical left-wing movement run by actual Marxists.
35:35Just saying that sounds like some conspiracy theory, but it's not.
35:38You can find videos of the people at the top of the Black Lives Matter organization
35:43describing themselves as trained Marxists on video.
35:46And trying to weaponize an issue or hijack an idea and then pull their whole organization
35:52along with it.
35:53Yeah.
35:54And the reason I thought it was so insidious was for multiple reasons.
35:56Number one, because people are sending money to them, but also because you are using tragedy
36:04to line your own pockets, right?
36:06So you're waiting for one of these high-profile killings to happen in the USA, essentially,
36:12white cop, black person.
36:15You're waiting for those incidents to happen so you can capitalize on it and then start
36:19pushing and campaigning.
36:21And then you're funneling that money to wherever it's going.
36:25It now turns out that they were buying houses and buying stocks and paying off their family
36:29members and so on.
36:31But again, if you go back to 2020, none of this was known.
36:342020 is when a lot of people think BLM started.
36:37It's not.
36:38It had happened before.
36:39But I think maybe due to the situation we were in with the lockdowns and the heightened
36:44tension and fear anyway, after George Floyd's death, it was international.
36:53It went outside the borders of the USA.
36:56I think social media obviously plays a huge role in this.
36:59And you had protests from Berlin to Japan to the UK, countries where cops don't even
37:05carry guns and people are marching around, Black Lives Matter, hands up, don't shoot,
37:09so on.
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38:09Again, how much of that is astroturfed, how much is organic, I don't know.
38:12But I saw this all springing up again, like I've seen this happen a lot of times.
38:17And I just put up a couple of posts specifically criticizing the organization.
38:23I actually explicitly said in my post that I'm talking about the organization.
38:30But that wasn't enough.
38:31A lot of people got very, very upset with me and mad about it.
38:33I had to do some cleaning up around that one.
38:37I won't go into too many details.
38:38Cleaning up as in getting rid of people in your life?
38:42No, no, no, no.
38:43Not getting rid of people in my life, but explaining.
38:47Explaining and not really being heard.
38:50Not defending myself from accusations that I've switched sides and I've become...
38:57Personally with people.
38:58Yes.
38:59Just personally behind the scenes.
39:00Yeah.
39:01Because people are looking at it like, how can...
39:07Sometimes I have to kind of try to put myself in other people's brains and shoes with the
39:10knowledge that they have.
39:12And they're like, how can a black man, after this thing happens with George Floyd, people
39:20are upset, understandably.
39:22People are angry.
39:23People want justice.
39:24And they're like, how is a black man criticizing something that's called a movement that's
39:32called Black Lives Matter in the aftermath of this?
39:36From my perspective, what I'm seeing is a whole bunch of people getting duped.
39:41I'm seeing a whole bunch of people, again, having their compassion and their empathy
39:44hijacked by bad actors who are then lining their pockets with quite literally millions,
39:51millions and millions of dollars in donation money, which is now flooding into the BLM
39:55organization.
39:57And it's going to not...
39:59It's not going towards improving black communities in the USA and infesting in their neighborhoods.
40:05At the same time, I'm also seeing one black man dies or is killed, depending on someone's
40:13narrative, in Minneapolis.
40:16And you know, in the riots that followed, you know, another 20 people died.
40:24So 20 more people get killed as a result of the anger and the backlash.
40:31I don't know how many hundreds of millions or billions of dollars of property damage
40:37is done, including damage to stores owned by lots of black and brown people in predominantly
40:44ethnic minority communities.
40:48You're just...
40:49You know, people have started...
40:50Then you've got people ripping down statues and just doing all sorts of crazy stuff.
40:52You've got white people bowing down to black people in the street and doing these weird...
40:56Like there's just all this...
40:57It was so weird.
40:58Like, when you think back to it, it was just...
41:01It was just bizarre.
41:02You're like, what is...
41:03What's going on here?
41:05Even the corporations, remember they started all sending out like newsletters talking about
41:09how much they like black people and how they stand against racism.
41:12You're going to play a video game.
41:13There's like a notification comes up supporting BLM in the sports field, basketball.
41:17They paint like BLM on the court and on the fields and the players are taking the knee.
41:22And it was hysterical.
41:25And I'm just looking at this all like, I know that most people's intentions here are good.
41:33But your emotions are being hijacked here.
41:36You're not thinking clearly.
41:37You're not looking into what is this narrative?
41:39The money that you are sending, where is it?
41:42Where is it going?
41:43There was that whole, you know, I have to put up a black square on Instagram thing.
41:46I had people unfollow me on Instagram for not putting up the black square.
41:49It's like, you people have lost your minds.
41:51I remember the black square.
41:52You've lost your minds.
41:53You're on...
41:54Like, if you don't think...
41:56If you think it took what happened in 2020 for me to realize that black lives matter,
42:01right?
42:02Coming from the family I'm from, the friendship groups I'm from, being who I am, really, like
42:09I've been walking around my whole life assuming my life doesn't matter, my parents' lives
42:12don't matter, my siblings, my...
42:15It's just so...
42:16Yeah, it was just very frustrating.
42:19It's kind of weird reflecting back on it now because the narrative has changed so much.
42:25It's tricky at the time because I'm guessing, if you're a black man or a black woman, you
42:30think about a moment or many moments in your life where you might have felt that because
42:35of the color of your skin, you were treated one way or the other.
42:37You might have felt that.
42:39And when this happens and they crank up the emotions, it's so easy to just say, yeah,
42:45you know, hey, this is a racist world and we have to fight back and we have to push
42:49back and then you dial up that emotion and all of a sudden the amygdala gets lodged and
42:54the cortex doesn't and all of a sudden you get people that you would think that are reasonable
42:59that are going to that side and then they're angry at you for taking a step back and saying,
43:02whoa, do you guys see what's going on here?
43:04We're being hijacked.
43:07So is that a correct way to look at it?
43:10Because I'm seeing that maybe that would happen.
43:12Like you could maybe weaponize any other issue with anybody else that might have had one
43:17of those issues in their life and said, oh, you remember that?
43:20And a lot of people might just go with it.
43:22Yeah.
43:23And I think it was so much more...
43:26I think that the lockdowns were actually a really significant factor.
43:29I think people had been stuck at home for months.
43:32People had been bored.
43:34People had been isolated.
43:35People had just been being fed fear, fear, fear every single day, every hour of the day.
43:41And then suddenly this thing happens and people see the video.
43:44It's caught on video.
43:45People see the police officer kneeling on George Floyd.
43:49I mean, when I saw that video, I was upset.
43:52Before I even knew the name George Floyd, I had actually posted a few times about just
43:57seeing that video and my thoughts about it.
44:01And then it was funny.
44:02I also had some people in my own audience, which is more conservative leaning, who are
44:07kind of really strong back of the blue type people who were then criticizing me.
44:14And so you're kind of like just caught in this weird thing where you're like, yeah,
44:18that was bad.
44:19That shouldn't have happened.
44:21There are now people, you know, there are people who think he died from the knee.
44:24There's people who think he died from overdose.
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