'Trump attacking foundations of US liberal democracy & explicitly supporting anti-liberal populists'

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00:00German MPs, in the meantime, have approved loosening debt rules for defence spending

00:05while backing a huge infrastructure investment package.

00:09The nation's next Chancellor, Friedrich Merz, getting the backing for ambitious plans to

00:14loosen the nation's strict debt rules for high defence spending.

00:18This has doubts mount about the strength of NATO and the transatlantic alliance.

00:24It's also going to set up an enormous fund for investment in its creaking infrastructure.

00:29Let's take a listen to what he had to say.

00:36The decision we are taking today on defence readiness in a comprehensive sense for our

00:40country can therefore be nothing less than the first major step towards a new European

00:46defence community, a defence community that also includes countries that are not members

00:51of the European Union but which are very interested in building this common European defence together

00:58with us, such as countries like Great Britain and Norway.

01:07The meantime French President Emmanuel Macron is in Berlin to meet the outgoing Chancellor

01:12Olaf Scholz.

01:14He also, we've seen live images there of him arriving, visiting the outgoing Chancellor.

01:20He's also earlier today visited the eastern region of Luex-les-Bains, which has a military

01:26base close to the German border.

01:28His visit coming a week after the French leader called for defence spending to be ramped up.

01:34Macron announcing that France as a result would be ordering more fighter jets than planned.

01:49France has without a doubt the most effective army on the continent, yes.

01:52The best equipped, the most comprehensive and the best trained.

01:56But we are pursuing this effort.

01:57It was indispensable to repair, to modernise and look ahead.

02:02As of the annual address to the army a few weeks ago, I asked our minister and army leadership

02:07to go further and the acceleration of events drove me to take further decisions which are

02:11currently being studied.

02:12Yes, we're going to increase and accelerate our orders of Rafale jets.

02:21So what a time to be European.

02:23The irony of history being at a time the United States is becoming anything but, meaning more

02:30than ever it's the moment for Europe to unify, especially as it realises that depending on

02:35its longtime ally is no longer a surefire bet.

02:40Timothy Gardon Ash is a historian, political writer and Guardian columnist.

02:46His book, Homelands, a personal history of Europe has been described as a love letter

02:52to Europe has just been published in French.

02:54He happens to be in Paris and I'm delighted to say the British author joins me now.

03:00Timothy, thank you so much for your time.

03:02There is a sweet irony, isn't there, that you wrote a book in a country, that being

03:09Britain, which turned its back on the EU in 2016.

03:13Well, that's partly the reason I wrote the book, because I had the sense starting with

03:19the Brexit vote that this Europe that we had built up, this more united Europe, this

03:24better Europe was now in crisis and that crisis continues in multiple countries.

03:33And I think this is, it's a series of challenges.

03:38Of course, this really the biggest challenge started on the 24th of February 2022 with

03:43the full scale invasion of Ukraine.

03:45So we already had the Putin shock.

03:48Now we have the Trump shock.

03:50And if Europe doesn't get its act together now, I don't know when it will.

03:55But the very same forces that threaten European and global stability, excuse me, could indeed

04:01bring a sense of true unity, could they not, to the continent as they witness the unravelling

04:07of American democracy?

04:10So certainly that's what we see at the moment.

04:13It's not just the United States, which is saying, hey, you Europeans need to do more

04:18for your own defense that we've known about for years.

04:23It's Donald Trump, as you say, attacking the foundations of liberal democracy in the United

04:28States and also explicitly supporting anti-liberal nationalist populist parties in Europe, like

04:35the AFD, J.D. Vance's speech at the Munich Security Conference, Assemblée Nationale

04:42in this country, those sort of parties.

04:44So yes, it's an absolutely frontal challenge to the Europe we've built and that I describe

04:49in my book, in my book Homelands.

04:52Look, there's tremendous unity among European leaders at the moment.

04:59I think there's a real sense that now we have to get our act together.

05:04But translating that into action, for example, in defence, where the reality that the effective

05:12defence of Europe at the moment is still in the American-led NATO.

05:19Are we also witnessing the passing of a generation which experienced global conflict and trauma

05:25and also know that unity is what one needs in order to bring peace?

05:29I mean, I think it's certainly something you would find resonates possibly more with older

05:34people than with younger people.

05:36Yes.

05:37I mean, one of the arguments in my book is something that I call the memory engine, which

05:41is to say this Europe we have built was built by people who'd experienced the Second World

05:47War, the Holocaust, the gulag, fascist dictatorship in Spain or Portugal, communist dictatorship

05:53in a country like Poland.

05:55Those were the people who, with this memory engine inside them, drove forward the European

06:00process.

06:01And now we have, if you're a 30-year-old in France or Italy or Spain, you know nothing

06:06but a relatively peaceful, prosperous and free Europe.

06:11But I'm and of course, younger Europeans also voting in significant numbers for those nationalist

06:18populist parties.

06:20But I think in my experience, even younger Europeans are waking up to this.

06:26You know, the shock coming from the United States, coming from Donald Trump is really

06:32waking people up.

06:33And as you say, this is a critical moment for European leaders as they deal with the

06:37threat that is Russia.

06:38But is this sort of pie in the sky stuff to create a unified push to defend the continent?

06:43I mean, as you write recently, it's one thing to work together on trade policy or product

06:48regulation, but a completely different story when it comes to crafting a EU-wide defence

06:54strategy.

06:55That's right.

06:56And as I say, the reality, the hard stuff, the hardware, the plans, the kit of European

07:04defence is still very much a NATO, an American-led NATO.

07:07So the question is, how do we get as fast as possible from a defence which is essentially

07:15in an American-led alliance to a position where Europe can defend itself and Ukraine,

07:22by the way, both at the same time, part of the same story.

07:27And that means trying to find out a plan for the Europeanization of NATO, for building

07:34up the European parts of NATO and the defence contribution from the EU and building up our

07:40national defence spending.

07:42And then the question is, are our electorates, our voters in all our different national democracies

07:51going to support that?

07:52Are they going to be prepared to pay for it?

07:54And that's an absolutely key question.

07:55France, for example, is very enthusiastic on this agenda of European defence in the

08:01magnificent rhetoric of Emmanuel Macron.

08:04But actually, if you look at the hard facts of support for Ukraine or defence spending,

08:10it's near the back of the pack.

08:12And French voters are really interested in their pensions and their health care and their

08:16education and so on.

08:19So it's a real challenge also to our democracies.

08:23And the chances of doing that is extraordinarily difficult, as you just point out, but also

08:27when you have the likes of Hungary's Viktor Orban.

08:31Well, that means you can't do it all through the EU because he's a veto player in the EU.

08:37So increasingly, what we're seeing is, you know, coalitions of the willing, groups of

08:43European countries coming together at a meeting summoned by Keir Starmer in London or by Emmanuel

08:49Macron in Paris or wherever it may be.

08:53And it's interesting, you know, Friedrich Merz, the incoming chancellor of Germany is

08:56going to be a very important player in all of this.

08:59He's talked repeatedly about having a contact group of Germany, France, Poland and Britain

09:06to take this whole conversation forward.

09:09I think it's going to be complicated.

09:11But then Europe has always been complicated.

09:15But, you know, the difference between this period versus the time of Churchill and Charles

09:20de Gaulle is you didn't have social media.

09:24You also had a sense of people's coalescing around a one strong individual.

09:29That doesn't seem to be so much the case in Europe when there's so many competing interests.

09:34And as you also pointed out, I mean, how do you get Europeans on board when you've got

09:3815 year olds out in the streets of Paris campaigning against pension reform?

09:44How do you get that message across?

09:46Yeah, well, I mean, it needs a lot of leadership, a lot of persuasion.

09:51And of course, you know, that's what our politicians have done over the last 30 years.

09:57You know, I've been advocating something I call Churchill-DeGaulleism, a combination

10:01of Churchill and De Gaulle.

10:02And both of them, of course, were great speakers, great orators, great actors, as well as as

10:07well as great fighters.

10:10So that's that's certainly something it needs.

10:12But I also quote in that article, you mentioned a remarkable comment that Churchill made

10:19when De Gaulle awarded him the Croix de la Libération, the Liberation Cross, in 1958.

10:27And Churchill said, you know, it's particularly difficult to get this kind of unity of effort

10:33when you're in a situation that is neither war nor peace, but somewhere in between.

10:39And that's exactly where we are in in most of Europe at the moment.

10:43Ukraine is at war.

10:44It's in eastern neighbors have a strong sense of war, Poland, for example, the Baltic states.

10:51But by the time you get to Spain or Portugal or even France or Italy, there's not that

10:55sense of urgency and an immediate threat.

10:59Timothy Gardinash, it's been a delight speaking to you.

11:02Thank you so much.

11:03Pleasure to be with you.

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