'The world order based on the UN Charter and international law is collapsing before our eyes'

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00:00Let's get more on the situation in Ukraine, and welcome to our studio here in France 24,

00:03the human rights campaigner, Aleksandr Matvishuk. Aleksandr, thank you very much for joining us

00:08here in the studio. We appreciate you coming in. Head of the Centre for Civil Liberties,

00:12which, correct me if I'm wrong, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022. Congratulations on

00:17that. And Euromaidan SOS is another organization you're very much the figurehead of. Thank you for

00:23joining us. I'm wondering, given what has happened in the US and given the situation on the ground

00:28in your country, what are your thoughts right now? How are you feeling right now about the

00:32situation? We're expecting a very hard winter because Russia has already destroyed the best

00:40potential of energy regeneration system in Ukraine. And this means that millions of

00:45people in Ukraine will face this winter, if nothing will change in the nearest weeks,

00:51with a threat to be without electricity, heating, water, light. And this is survival issues because

01:01you can't survive in a modern city without basic human need. But why am I looking in the future

01:07with optimism? Because I know that there is a huge wave of solidarity across the country,

01:12and people help each other. And it's not the first hard winter, which we

01:17we go through. So we will overcome this challenge. February the 24th, 2022, when the invasion was

01:24launched, I think most people thought it would be over within 72 hours. As Vladimir Putin said,

01:30it would, of course, it wasn't because Ukraine fought back. Because Ukraine used its skill,

01:35its ingenuity to fight back. And that's possibly one of your biggest tools, isn't it? One of your

01:40biggest assets. Let me remind that not just Vladimir Putin thinks that Ukraine will have no

01:45potential to resist, but also our international partners. Because there is something that they

01:51don't understand. We people in Ukraine have never had the luxury to rely on sustainable,

01:58effective state institutions. We 10 years ago just got a chance to build such a country where

02:05the rights of everybody are protected. So when something existential happens, ordinary people

02:12started to do extraordinary things. And returning to February 2022, it became obvious very soon

02:20that ordinary people fighting for their freedom and human dignity can be stronger than even the

02:27second army in the world. I had the privilege a year on from the start of the war to go to Kyiv.

02:33I visited again the privilege to go to Bucha, which suffered so much, to go to Irpin to see

02:38the bridge that was blown up by Ukrainian forces to stop Russia's advance. What struck me was that

02:45people, regardless of what was happening, were determined that they would keep their country,

02:51that they would keep fighting. But we have no other choice. Putin openly says that there is

02:57no Ukrainian nation, there is no Ukrainian language, there is no Ukrainian culture.

03:02For 10 years, we have been documenting how these words converted in horrible practice.

03:07When the Russian troops physically exterminate active local people on the ground, mayors,

03:12journalists, children, writers, priests, teachers, environmentalists, how they ban Ukrainian language

03:18and culture, how they rob Ukrainian cultural heritage, how they're taking Ukrainian children

03:24to Russia in order to bring them up as Russians. So once again, we have no other choice.

03:30If we stop fighting, it will be no more us.

03:34Vladimir Putin now has an arrest warrant in his name because of war crimes like taking the

03:39children away, putting them in with Russian families, taking them forcibly from Ukrainian

03:44territory. How do you feel when you see the likes of Vladimir Putin meeting other world

03:50leaders like Xi Jinping, doing the BRICS summit, those kind of things? What does that leave you

03:54feeling? I don't know how historians in future will call this historical period, but the world

04:02order, which is based on UN charter and international law, is collapsing before our eyes.

04:08The work of Security Council is paralyzed and it's very easy to predict that fires like wars

04:14will emerge more and more often in different parts of the globe because the international

04:19wiring is faulty and sparks are everywhere. And why Ukraine is so important? Because Ukraine for

04:25Russia is not just a goal, it's a tool how to break international order, how to dictate its

04:33rules to entire international community, and even forcibly change the internationally recognized

04:38borders. And that is why Russian war of aggression in Ukraine is supported by other

04:44authoritarian leaders. Iran provided to Russia drones. China helps Russia to succumb on sanctions

04:51and import technology is critical to warfare. North Korea sent troops to Russia. That issue again

04:58suggests that the fact that this conflict is getting bigger and bigger, the fact that China

05:02clearly is involved. North Korea sending troops to the Kors region. It may go even further because

05:08clearly there are issues looking towards Europe about what happens in Moldova, what happens in

05:13Georgia. Clearly Russia's influence is very strong there. Yes, and in the time of crisis. Negative

05:19influence, I must say. Negative influence, yes. The personal leadership matter and we just saw what

05:26Consul Shultz told and we need honest leadership. I wish Consul Shultz to tell people in Germany

05:35that they are safe because Ukrainians are still fighting. Because if they not be able to stop

05:41Putin in Ukraine, Russia will go further. Russia will attack next country. And then it will be not

05:48a question of money. It will be a question of human lives. You mentioned leaders, Alexandra.

05:53Emmanuel Macron saying Ukraine must win. Russia must not be allowed to win this battle.

05:59Keir Starmer of the UK siding with Macron on that issue. But into the theatre now walks

06:06Donald Trump. And no one quite knows precisely what he's going to do. He has said that he doesn't

06:11want to keep the funding going to Ukraine. Your message to him, I imagine, is a very clear one that

06:17that funding must continue. I also don't know what President Trump will do and he has for sure

06:25a huge influence to external policy. But I know what Russia will do. Because Putin doesn't want

06:33Putin want to restore Russian empire. He's thinking in the logic how his name will be

06:42appeared in the world history. And he don't care about human life because human life is the cheapest

06:48resources in Russia. So we have to know this goal and to build our strategy based on this.

06:57We can't afford our self-wishful thinking because we are dying. And just in the near past

07:06for eight years Russia occupied before large-scale war started Donbass and Crimea. And Russia didn't

07:14stop. Russia uses these eight years to build powerful military base in Crimea, to produce

07:22million artillery shells, to prepare economy for the next wave of sanctions and start large-scale

07:30war. And those people in the place you mentioned, in the Donbass, Moscow will say they actually are

07:39Russian and want to be Russian. The Ukrainian perspective, and I've read people like Andrei

07:45Kirkov talking about this, about the fact that, you know, sort of being from there, knowing this.

07:50I've interviewed people like Peter Zalmayev from the Eurasia Democracy Initiative talking about

07:54he's from that area, he says isn't the case. What is your experience? I think that we lack

07:59human dimension when we discuss this issue because when diplomats, experts in politics

08:04discuss occupied territories, they never tell how people live under Russian occupation. I know

08:13because I have been documenting war crimes for 10 years. I know that people under Russian

08:18occupation live in grey zone. They have no tools how to defend their rights, their freedom, their

08:24property, their lives, their children, their beloved ones. Russian occupation means torture, enforced

08:30disappearances, rape, denial of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration

08:36camps and mass graves. So when Moscow talks about the referendums in places like Lugansk, Donetsk,

08:43Zaporizhia, Kherson, to try to basically annex those territories and say that's what the people

08:49want, that's basically a sham. That is something that is completely false. But it's just a special

08:54disinformation operation. Imagine somebody knocked on your door, you open your door, you see people

09:01with guns and they ask you how you will vote on the Russian referendum, what you will respond.

09:07Can I ask what you think about the possibility of Vladimir Zelensky persuading Donald Trump to

09:14give Ukraine what it wants? Clearly Zelensky has a certain way about him, a certain way of

09:19communicating about him, which has worked a lot on the international stage. Do you think

09:24that will be something that will be heard in the White House? Do you hope, you hope surely?

09:29I just can quote the Václav Havel, the famous Czech dissident, a sentence that hope is not

09:36a confidence that everything will be fine, but this is a deep understanding that everything which

09:42we are doing have a sense. So we have continued the struggle for freedom. We have no other choice.

09:48The words of Václav Havel, very wise indeed. Clearly you'd want to have a similar kind of

09:56a similar kind of outcome with what we've seen sort of Czech Republic, Slovakia establishing

10:03secure democracies inside the European Union. That's where you want to see Ukraine go,

10:07isn't it? Inside the EU, even inside NATO, something of course Moscow doesn't want to happen.

10:13We also as people in Ukraine have our historical goal and our historical goal is to return to

10:19European civilized dimension. And this is value choice. It's not just about signing some

10:26international treaty. It's a value choice of people who want to build their country where

10:31the rights of everybody are protected. Government is accountable. Judiciary is independent. And

10:37police do not beat students who are peacefully demonstrating. And we are very honest and sincere

10:42because we are paying the highest price for this chance. We are paying the price of our lives.

10:49Vladimir Putin in his article, which you alluded to earlier on, which was published in Pravda,

10:53I read it in English, is talking about the fact that it is Russian territory, Ukraine. If indeed

11:00he will acknowledge it's called Ukraine, but it is Russian territory. That's what he says.

11:04But of course there is a different story, which is the real story, that it's Ukrainian territory.

11:11Russia is empire and empire has a centre but has no borders. And it's not me who say this.

11:18It's Vladimir Putin. He told that borders of Russia will never end. Nature of empire always

11:24the same. When empire has energy, empire always expanded. When empire has no energy,

11:31empire just waiting for a time to get it. Alexander Matveichuk, head of the Centre for

11:38Civil Liberties, which was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022. Thank you very much for

11:43joining us here and sharing your thoughts. You've been in Paris at the Peace Forum.

11:47I hope that that was a fruitful experience for you because I'm sure all those listening to you

11:50speak will certainly come away with a better understanding of what's happening in Ukraine

11:55and a better sense of what the word peace means. Thank you for joining us here on France 24. We

11:59appreciate your time. Thank you very much indeed. We take a very short break. After that, the news

12:03continues. Do stay with us.

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