- yesterday
The top focus of this edition of Democratic Newsroom is the ongoing electoral roll revision exercise in Bihar, initiated by the Election Commission ahead of the state assembly election later this year.
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00:00very good evening and welcome to our latest edition of the democratic newsroom as we speak
00:23in the last three months right before elections in bihar the election commission of india has
00:28undertaken what many deem a contentious electoral role revision exercise the matter now challenged
00:35in court but there's fair amount of opinion we've had a massive political battle over the ballot
00:41list and there is political commentary there is social commentary there is a narrative which is
00:46being built which needs to be discussed and what best then to get our crack team of editors in the
00:52democratic newsroom to threadbare speak discuss debate with what is going on in court and outside
01:00in bihar the electoral role revision let me quickly introduce our editors to our viewers this evening
01:07consulting editor rajdeep sardisai in our brand new uh set also rajdeep today is joining us
01:12with the smell of fresh paint with the smell of fresh paint nothing smells better than fresh paint does it
01:18then we have gorham savant puja shali our guest uh anjana om kasha from uh ajtak we have anisha who
01:27follows the court we have sidharth zarabi from business today before we move on to anybody else
01:32because there's been a hearing in court today and anisha would you want to weigh in on uh because this
01:38matter multiple petitions challenged in the top court of the country well let's look at the specifics
01:44of the objections that have been raised a lot of questions are being asked about why people have
01:49a problem with this entire electoral roll revision constitutionally legally and on practically so to
01:57speak first of all the issues that are being raised by the petitioners and by the court are with regard
02:02to whether the ec can look into citizenship at all the question is yes the yes the ec does have the
02:11power to conduct regular role revisions but when it comes to questioning citizenship can it go to that
02:18extent secondly when the role revision is being done when the ec is saying we are conducting an electoral
02:26role revision can you then say that we will create a system where people will be disenfranchised
02:33unless they can provide proof that they are citizens can you therefore violate the entire
02:40principle of innocent until proven guilty and say that well unless you have the documents you are
02:45disenfranchised the rule under the rp act specifically is that to disenfranchise someone to cut somebody's
02:52name from the electoral rolls you have to bring in the objection you have to prove that xyz person is
02:58not a valid citizen or has some other uh this disqualification that is where the constitution and legal issue
03:05comes in on process and practicality the the contentions that are being raised is the timeline
03:12that when you have this entire exercise can you then in 30 minutes 30 days or 60 days or 90 days
03:19allow enough time for objections to come redress for verification to come in and for the redressal and
03:25that is where the supreme court has also asked questions if you disqualify someone okay can you then
03:30give them time for redressal by the time the bihar elections come in so there's no stay anisha
03:35there's no when's the next hearing 28th of july and the supreme court has asked the ec to answer
03:40all of these questions procedure timeline can you delink it from the bihar elections can you do the
03:47sir exercise as a separate exercise forget about bihar elections do the electoral vote revision because
03:53that is something that is necessary but delink it and also what documents are you asking for can you
03:59say that we will are we will accept abc document but not accept other documents so a lot of we are in
04:06the rp act itself so a lot was said in court today but the exercise hasn't been stayed it continues
04:12correct that is there but on the 28th after the ec i files its response that then we will see what
04:18happens next because okay see court is very clear ec has the power to do this exercise they will not
04:25stop this exercise they will however adjudge the contours and validity and legality of this exercise
04:32nobody is stopping the sir please be very clear on that right so nobody's stopping it but there are
04:36questions on legality morality as well but before we get into a heated debate because i'm going to put my
04:41money on it it's going to get down to that i want to give the opportunity to anjuna because i'll tell you
04:46why i'm giving you the opportunity listen you guys are regulars why don't you go ahead let me
04:48listen why because i want to see why you're a special guest because anjuna hails from bihar so
04:52one of the reasons we've invited her in is because this exercise is taking place why are you shaking
04:56your head sir like he wants to go ahead because he has now he can now he can bihar also no no please
05:03go ahead no no go ahead he's a gentleman please go ahead come on okay the reason we are giving her
05:08the opportunity is because she's she's our guest and number one number two you hail from bihar and this
05:14entire exercise is taking place in bihar how the regular bihar is looking at it uh i think it's a
05:19classic case of kagaz nahi dikhayenge number one number two role revision is a regular thing that
05:26that has been done by the election commission in this country forever and ever but when it comes to
05:32like i have a very basic question for people who are talking about adharkat we talk about article 326
05:37save the constitution of this country the constitution says in article 326 that only a citizen of this
05:43country can vote and what does the adhaar card say it says i am not proof of the citizenship of this
05:50country but we want to use the adhaar card for voting see the contradiction there and this is a
05:56big statement on all the people who claim they want to save the constitution but don't understand
06:01the 326 is saying ki sahab are you a citizen of this country adhaar says i'm not proving that you're a
06:08citizen but they want the adhaar to prove that you can vote okay so the biggest contradiction for
06:13all the constitution savers of this world lies there so biharis are looking at it like that especially
06:18me now you come to biharis are participating very actively 57 percent already and there are still
06:2316 days to come in for today yeah okay so by by yesterday seven it was 57 yeah now come to see
06:30manchal this adhaar card saturation that is being talked about the adhaar card saturation
06:34matlab for every 100 people who live how many people have adhaar card okay for the whole of bihar
06:40the saturation is 94 percent okay but for simanchal to see manchal four four uh districts there
06:48kishankanch uh ararya katiyar and one more which is uh punya punya from where papuya the one the saturation
06:58is above 120 the maximum is in 68 percent muslim population adhaar card is 126 saturation now the
07:08one big flaw is that now this and not just for bihar even in delhi it's 133 percent this is a huge
07:14racket that we have to somehow crack you're saying why is this happen so net yes it should happen and
07:19it should happen countrywide okay but just two questions this is a pilot project this is a
07:23do stop this okay i'll go to i'll go to rajdi but just two questions on that anjana because uh
07:29over 39 lakh voters were added on the basis of the same adhaar that you're speaking of in maharashtra
07:33so question mark on that yeah number two you're talking about 126 percent saturation of adhaar
07:38census hasn't happened yeah how do we know their saturation no but where is this
07:42figure coming from they're extrapolating from the who's extrapolating but that's how you do all your
07:45data that's how you do all your readings how do you extrapolate and if you've added 39 lakh
07:50voters on the basis of and also and also one more argument in maharashtra one more argument in the
07:56court wait let me let me quickly go around yeah sorry just if i may interject one tiny question for
08:01anjana when you're talking about speculative saturation without a census the question the issue is
08:08how can you disenfranchise voters how can you where has anyone been disenfranchised okay
08:14are you jumping the gun on this no no seriously i mean seriously no where is this
08:21in hindi me a hindi mein purani kahawat hai chor ki daari mein tinka kagaz nahi dikhaing
08:25kagaz nahi dikhaing ke karewai hui nahi but where is the data coming from or disenfranchise
08:30i wish i wish those who spoke just now had even half an idea of the law of this country
08:51i'm very sorry to say this this is the a law and practicality sitting in a nice little studio
08:56nice new painted studio in noida is very different from simanchal or any part of bihar
09:02please understand and let me give you the reason first of all i was surprised even anisha did not
09:06raise a basic point very very basic point which is between june 2024 and january 2025 the bihar state
09:16election machinery completed a revision of the electoral rolls called the special summary revision 2025 so full
09:24revision with additions deletions it all please tell me and the election commission holds our
09:29explanation to this country not through press releases but through a proper press conference
09:34what changed in five months between january 2025 and june 2025 for you to suddenly decide
09:41that we are going in for a special intensive revision after a press release a month ago mentioned
09:46specifically aadhaar now you bring in not only do you bring in a special intensive revision which in
09:522002-2003 took one year say we are going to do it in three months decide to do it in the monsoon
09:57months of bihar after you have completed please let me be clear after you have completed a complete
10:03exercise including additions and deletions which was an ongoing exercise and you bring in a list of 11
10:10restrictive documents which you will say are necessary for anyone these are indicated one
10:15minute these are these words are not indicative and all when you go down this is the this is the
10:20problem between those who sit in noida and those who need to be on the on out on the street the fact
10:25is it's a classic example of state where is this coming from where is this coming from
10:33no no we are not here to listen to all these things no no these are constitutional
10:38mind your language don't let's go one by one we are we are out on the streets
10:44okay i'll serve the back i'll serve the banter please stop one minute make your point but don't make this
10:49matter about studio and ground june to january for six months no you must listen completely because
10:55this is a serious issue it cannot be done through we have one hour okay everyone can have their say
11:00okay make your point i need to presume that the earlier roles that you put in place right were in
11:06some way fraudulent or some way flawed please understand you have said a cut-off date of 2003 since 2003
11:14bihar has had five state elections and five general elections right through a particular role
11:20process you have now said that those who are not on the register as of 2003 subsequently have to supply
11:27one of 11 documents every empirical evidence every empirical evidence not done by me but done by
11:33scholars shows that several people in bihar do not possess these documents when i say that the difference
11:40between noida and the ground is simply this it's not about reporters it's about the
11:44reality on the ground versus being in the studio bihar has a large mobile migrant population bihar has
11:50a large rural poor population you are going to subject them to a typical bureaucratic exercise of state
11:56over each right in three months an exercise which nationally took one year in 2002 three no no please
12:03you must listen to these these are all very serious points this is not therefore as i told anisha
12:08constitutionality we can dispute whether article 326 allows the ec complete control over an
12:14election is one matter however any power cannot be subject to abuse of it
12:19one that is why that is why you have a number one number one number one number one number
12:24we have we have one hour okay i just want to tell all our families no no no i don't worry because
12:28i'm a bihari this extra pity is going to bihar is not dying no no no no it's nothing to do with
12:32bihar it's 66 it's silly yeah it's 66 percent now this this poor one second extra pity is going to
12:39bihar it is not about personal it is constitutional please understand if you create a situation where
12:56those before 2003 are subject to different rules to those after 2003 after it violates a fundamental
13:02principle of your constitution of equality of citizenship i cannot tell those after 2003 you
13:08will supply a level one of 11 list of documentary evidence but if you were okay if you are already
13:13on the electoral rolls before 2003 all is okay and to the point that my friend mr gaurav savan made
13:1958 percent 66 percent it can be even 98 percent but if even two percent of eligible indian citizens
13:26are denied the right to vote have they been denied the system itself i am at the moment because you
13:32used a number my limited point is gaurav the fact is there are constitutional questions of equality
13:38involved here and there are practical questions involved of the manner in which he has done it so let's
13:44please take it seriously and not personalizing you don't nobody nobody is one second
13:50i have studied the law through all my life i am not going to be subject to all of this water
14:02take a sip of water and stay right here why are you going there is no personalized thing i'm
14:06holding on to each other in fact if anybody made it one by one let me go one by one allow me to
14:12no no on a very limited point make your point since rajdeep made this point very passionately
14:19and i will say this equally with passion but very calmly that will be my attempt rajdeep in 1990
14:28close to 500 000 people had to leave kashmir valley and if my memory serves me right for
14:36several election cycles which didn't happen in jnk by the way due to the troubled situation
14:42they moved within the same state from seven districts to other districts they were denied
14:48their electoral franchise did any of you raise this point then no i am asking questions no no no you
14:56can use any terms it's not what about yeah i'm i'm countering to that passionate fundamental point
15:03which i agree with you no one should be denied their right to cast their vote but there are always two
15:09sides to the coin and since you are such a cricket fan even on at a toss on the field there is heads
15:15and tails this was just to show you a mirror on that argument the second point adding to the debate
15:21hopefully in a qualitative manner article 326 go down just three articles to 329 which is the role of
15:30the court and what the constitution says about its ability to interfere in the electoral process
15:37delimitation the conduct of polls the entire process in the run-up during the polls and after
15:43that is very clearly defined and laid out and therefore in today's arguments at the court and the
15:52observations which i think are still observations anisha can correct me and what may happen on the 28th
15:59the court has told all the petitioners and the defendants that my powers to interfere with what
16:05the election commission of india can do are limited by that very same constitution that that is exactly
16:13what i said let's everybody have their say and then we'll circle right back what would you want to go
16:17next i mean my simple point is we began with the objections let's begin with the aim why is this
16:24exercise happening in the first place and this exercise is happening in the first place so that you
16:29have pure electoral roles aim one would you or would you not want what was happening between
16:36hello and no no one minute what was happening you must not mislead audiences what was happening
16:42between by seeking a electoral process you're misleading the audience because i'm asking you a simple
16:47question please answer it no first let me make my point between june 20 24 and you know i won't let
16:51you because you're misleading audiences by saying it's about purification it is not so i'm asking you
16:56what is what happened between june 20 24 and january 20 25 that was impure no no that was impure
17:02now sir me please answer be a censor be answer it sensibly i will not say i'm getting up and going
17:09away because i will stay and argue my point make your point because because your knowledge is limited
17:14make your point the question sir the fountain of knowledge to aap hi hai on this issue yes on this issue
17:20yes okay everyone just temper down a notch so this is serious
17:26india pakistan is not your india pakistan you make it to your usual uh
17:30shouting like this is not that please answer simple question i have i have i'm making a point
17:35make your point allow me to make a point please let our audience decide okay please decide please
17:40answer me rajdeep sardissa is not supreme court of india please answer please answer me no let's
17:44let's make it very clear let's make it very clear you are not supreme court of india yes yes yes
17:48i don't want that okay one second okay okay one second time out time out enough enough
17:52enough enough anisha one second the court asked the exact same question that rajdeep has
18:06one second allow him to speak what's the problem because he's obviously not allowed him to speak
18:11doesn't matter how does it matter one second one second i'm not understanding what's this point make
18:17your point point one had it been illegal supreme court would have stayed it they have not had it
18:24been illegal it's a pure electoral process they're saying they want pure electoral roles that is why
18:29they're going ahead with it they have asked people to participate and 66 percent people are participating
18:35they are you don't have enough allow allow anisha allow somebody to have their say make your point are
18:41you so weak in your argument that you wouldn't let the other person complete his point make your point
18:45make your point come on let's everybody one second everyone refrain from personal commentary
18:52let's try and do that we're all calling no just like make your point yeah pure electoral
18:59roles is what is seeing being shot whether it happens or not it's for courts of law to decide
19:05if there is any illegality involved there is court so there are courts of law to decide and that's
19:09exactly what the election commission also said let us get this exercise completed then your lordships
19:17can decide if that entire process is okay or not we will bring it to you if there is anything illegal in
19:24it anything that is not correct in it there are courts of law in this country that will decide point
19:29two point three this is a process that's happening here after 22 long years 22
19:35long years is what the election commission has told the supreme court you if they're wrong the
19:40supreme court will then decide it happened in 2003 in 31 days yes okay special intensive revision is
19:47happening after 22 long years it will remove duplicate entries you were talking about people migrating
19:54rural people garib logan migrate kar ronga there are people who are there in two different places they have
20:00votes in two different places should they be removed from two different places or not it's a legal process
20:06they are cross-checking so that one so what happened between june and january of 24 25 you're not
20:12asking the central question it has not been explained it should have been prima facie ab initio you are
20:17starting what in law is called a pro novo exercise it's a fresh exercise which means the election commission
20:23should have the courage to say that your earlier no roles that you put in were fraudulent and flawed
20:28so are you willing to say that
20:32did the supreme court say or not say no reason to doubt let's test their credentials that's what the
20:43court have said you may not have faith in the election commission if you're looking at observations
20:47the court has also said i seriously doubt the process number one i might also no intention to deny
20:53any voter his vote election commission has submitted in supreme court i'm only going by documents and
20:59arguments that have taken place in supreme court based on facts because i don't weigh in either side
21:04on this i don't have an agenda to peddle here you're going to ask you a question
21:16you must tell audiences what the court said this cannot be done in this manner the
21:19election commission one minute sir reality check supreme court said if you are to check citizenship
21:25under sir of electoral roles in baihan then you should have acted early it is a bit late purging
21:30non-citizens from the electoral rolls is the prerogative of the home ministry not the election
21:34commission you cannot change the laws based on you can decide on eligibility you cannot decide
21:40citizenship the documents that are being asked for are effectively deciding citizenship and the
21:45principle of should a non-citizen be allowed to sir should a non-citizen all these years what has
21:51happened please understand are you aware that there are elections that have taken place mr uh
21:56siddharth zarabi from 1952 in this country till 2025 elections did not start now in 2025 are you
22:03telling me therefore that elections took place with non-citizens voting please say that should we
22:08allow that in 2025 no one second no no one minute are you saying that the earlier elections had non-citizens
22:13i'm not saying that i'm asking you should we allow non-citizens okay one second no i'll just
22:17ask the question one second all right before allow me to go to puja before i go to puja because you gave
22:22out details i just want to ask you one basic question six months ago there was an election
22:26in the state of maharashtra over 39 like voters were added on the basis of form six which is in
22:31the election commission of india website the form six asks you for three things to be an adult
22:36to be a resident of preferably of the same constituency and citizenship which it doesn't
22:41require any document you need only one document to register as a new voter in this country and that
22:47is aadhar so on the basis of hear me out on the basis of that if you've added 39 lakh voters in
22:53maharashtra which is again being contended on the basis of aadhar why should somebody from bihar
22:59be made to furbish proof of citizenship where no other state till now has been asked there is a pilot
23:05project again if you go into details there is a pilot project that is underway if this works it will be
23:12undertaken across the country as siddharth zarabi rightly said do you want non-citizens to be
23:18voting in your country as anjana very rightly said your aadhar card as she showed you documents
23:25is not proof of citizenship okay however allow me to get in allow me to get in puja then i'll come back
23:30that is currently being undertaken if that exercise allow allow me to bring in the supreme court i have
23:37my faith in the majesty of the supreme court to be able to decide whether that exercise is illegal
23:43arbitrary or wrong okay gotta now pass it over puja go ahead puja make your point two quick points here
23:47if my research is correct because the cesar was done in 2003 in 31 days it happened without technology
23:52at that point four crore voters no new documents will be asked from them who have voted in 2003 yes it is
24:00for the ones who are possibly born after 2003 will vote after 2003 and what documents do they have
24:06to submit establish their birth date and that of their parents hence the distinction between 2003 and
24:13post-2003 and so i don't understand how that is going to be a huge problem because these are basic
24:18documents that you would expect from a citizen of this country two let's talk direct now why are why is
24:23the focus possibly in bihar it's a border state it borders nepal what is the biggest concern in the past few
24:29years with bihar is that there's been infiltration there's been settlement of illegal immigrants
24:35specifically bangladeshi and rohingya mha itself had said in 2019 that there were about 20 10 lakh
24:41illegal immigrants in bihar recently one bangladeshi citizen was arrested from indo-nepal
24:46border trying to cross into bihar these are serious concerns i would definitely want not one of them
24:53to vote in bihar elections and i understand it's a complicated process i understand the whole adhar
24:58which document to show but why shouldn't this exercise be carried out when you're deciding your
25:04country and state's next leader absolutely one argument could be that uh the rest of the states
25:09have never been asked to do so so how do you how do you how do you make a state once okay how does
25:14how does start with bihar why because you do it unilaterally then you hold this exercise across the
25:20country it will be like i said it's a project anisha you can't starting with bihar if it's
25:25successful an election can not be subject to a pilot project may i just once again make this we go
25:30back to repeat the point i made in my beginning remarks court is saying to me i say i can't say
25:36aci has the authority to do so the question is about timing the question is about procedure the question is
25:43about what is the role of the eci the role of the eci is to weed out illegal ineligible names to have
25:49people who are on your but that is exactly including people in bihar including indians
26:07allow me a rebuttal i have been a voter in delhi now for many election cycles
26:11and as far as i know every before every election a few months before that give or take
26:18even my forms you have to resubmit i have got knocked out so it is practiced before every
26:24election cycle to conduct a summary revision sir vahito bath is summary revision has been done
26:30only one of only a certain section i don't think it is across
26:34it was done are we equating maharashtra and bihar at the same when it comes to cross-border
26:43infiltration i'm not talking about the point that anjana made are we refusing to acknowledge ground
26:52level reality that there are four districts including two of those four where there are
26:58documented evidence there are intelligence reports of massive infiltration is that not a problem in
27:05panjab ordering district it is not in the case of kashmir because of a mountainous border how can
27:11you equate maharashtra and bihar the question is not about where why you're doing the sIR the question is
27:18whether your timeline for an sIR no can i flip this argument okay is proper or not wait why should the
27:25why should the revision special or summary or extraordinary the powers of the eci are very
27:31wide-ranging in this regard why should it not happen closer to the date why should it happen two years
27:37before because you need the time if you are questioning the timeline you need the time
27:42for verification time for redressal time for redressal time for redressal but 66 percent
27:49where is the redressal we should let 66 documents have been submitted which is great which happens
27:54after 100 which is which is what rajdiv said we have here drawing room
27:58ground level people are happy there's a larger question there's a larger question
28:10in its original concept right today the same supreme court without casting any aspersions on
28:15the learned judges are now saying no no adhaar is there then i asked my lords why did you come in the
28:21way my lords of the adhaar becoming the equivalent of a national identity and preventing
28:28ordinary indians to carry 12 ids i am fed up of 12 ids i am fed up of 12 ids i don't want
28:36for isso the same supreme court destroyed the adhaar all right no that's a different argument no
28:43that's a different argument no it's a matter of convenience
28:44I will give an argument.
28:46Very well said.
28:47That's a different argument.
28:48You have to give a passport, biometric.
28:50One second.
28:51You have to give a visa for America.
28:53Anjana, allow Anjana.
28:54Please give it to YouTube.
28:56Please give it to YouTube.
28:57Please give it to YouTube.
28:58Allow Anjana to comment.
28:59Hey, Anisha, allow Anjana, go there.
29:01Only if necessary.
29:03I'm okay with you guys fighting.
29:04Make your point.
29:05I'm loving it.
29:06Make your point, you were quite...
29:08No, no, no.
29:09Yeah, I made my points.
29:10I mean, I'm very clear on this.
29:11That everybody's saying, why are you doing it now?
29:13What's the urgency?
29:14It's that, again, the role can get corrupted again
29:17if you do it like midway.
29:18And if they're saying it, they're claiming in 2003
29:21without any digital platforms, they could do it in 31 days.
29:24Why are you...
29:25I mean, we are fighting and screaming over something that is...
29:28What will happen if voters are...
29:30Let it happen.
29:32If they do it, like you saw what happened in Assam.
29:35It was a ruckus.
29:36Listen, and this is a pilot.
29:37After this, it's happening in Assam.
29:38And if you see the list of documents that are being asked for,
29:41NRC is included in it.
29:43That is for Assam.
29:44That is not for Bihar.
29:45So it's going in a certain way and it should happen.
29:47So you agree it's a backdoor NRC?
29:48I'm not saying it's a backdoor NRC.
29:50That's what it is.
29:51Even if it is, what is wrong in an NRC?
29:54Let it happen.
29:55One second.
29:56It's a question.
29:57No, no.
29:58Then why didn't we conduct it?
29:59Listen.
30:00Why didn't the government conduct the NRC?
30:01There's nothing wrong with it.
30:02Let them decide what they have to do.
30:03So this is a backdoor NRC?
30:04What I'm saying is, if people, like she said, if they are weeded out.
30:08It should happen.
30:09It's a backdoor NRC.
30:10Non-citizens of this country, don't put words into my mouth.
30:13I'm not.
30:14You said.
30:15You said what you did.
30:16I didn't say it.
30:17It will happen elsewhere.
30:18It will happen.
30:19NRC.
30:20I am saying this is happening and it will go on to Assam.
30:23And it should happen in every state.
30:24It should happen.
30:25It will happen.
30:26It will happen in every state.
30:27It will happen in every state.
30:28One second.
30:29One second.
30:30Nobody is questioning.
30:31Nobody is questioning whether bogus voters need to be weeded out or not.
30:36Nobody is questioning that.
30:37I think that is very clear amongst everyone.
30:39No, no.
30:40It is not.
30:41It is not.
30:42Radhi is watching Wimbledon.
30:43I am.
30:44I am.
30:45I am quite fond of tennis.
30:47But listen.
30:48I think at the end of the day.
30:50This is a very serious issue.
30:51No, no.
30:52I think.
30:53We are talking about electoral roll and you are watching Wimbledon.
30:54It is a vote that is coming down.
30:55It is very good.
30:56Because I am stunned by the arguments which are based basically effectively claiming
31:00that the election commission should do what the election commission was never mandated
31:03to do.
31:04Not mandated to clean electoral rolls.
31:06No, no.
31:07One minute.
31:08That is very different.
31:09Please understand.
31:10There is a difference which they clean.
31:11Cleaning up of electoral rolls was done in BR when you call a summary revision.
31:14And I use the words very deliberately for six months between June and January.
31:19That was precisely what you did.
31:21What the election commission is not answering.
31:23Because that is where the real story lies.
31:25Is that what has changed between January and June.
31:28Are you alleging a conspiracy?
31:29You are alleging a conspiracy.
31:30I am asking a question.
31:31Whose conspiracy is it?
31:32One second.
31:33I am.
31:34You are constantly saying.
31:35Why do you do it?
31:36I am certain.
31:37I believe that when you go in for a special intensive revision, you have to give very special
31:42reasons for doing so.
31:44Maybe they have reasons.
31:45Till today, they have not done so.
31:46Maybe there is a horrible attempt to underway to influence the Bihar election.
31:50Now you must allow me to speak.
31:51Maybe there is an attempt.
31:52Maybe there is an attempt.
31:53Mr. Zarabi.
31:54Mr. Zarabi.
31:55Now you must allow.
31:56You are asking me a question.
31:57I will reply.
31:58The election commission is expected to do a special intensive revision when they are
32:03able to provide solid and cogent reasons as to what was the urgency to do it five months
32:08before a Bihar election after you have completed a summary revision of that state.
32:12It cannot be that one state is a border state and another state is different.
32:15Every Indian is equal in every Indian state.
32:18Please understand that.
32:19Indian is equal.
32:20Which Indian?
32:21Indian.
32:22Indian.
32:23That's the point.
32:24That's right.
32:25There are other ways.
32:26There are other ways.
32:27There are other ways.
32:28There are other ways.
32:29There are other ways.
32:30You have complete.
32:31You have complete.
32:32You have agencies which are run by the home ministry of this country whose primary
32:35job is to ensure that illegal immigration is stopped.
32:39Right?
32:40You are.
32:41If you are claiming that illegal immigration has taken over the home ministry as the Supreme
32:44Court said, it's their responsibility.
32:46The election commission.
32:47The election commission since 1952 has been conducting exercises.
32:53Five elections in Bihar itself have taken place with.
32:56But the.
32:57Are you.
32:58What.
32:59The election.
33:00The election.
33:01The election.
33:02The election.
33:03The election commission comes up with clear reasons.
33:07Without the opacity.
33:08Without having a single press conference.
33:10Without having consultation with stakeholders.
33:12With having a press release.
33:14A month ago which spoke of Aadhaar.
33:16Please understand this.
33:17The same election commission's press release.
33:19Go and read it.
33:20A month ago spoke of Aadhaar.
33:21And the need possibly of linking Aadhaar.
33:23Okay.
33:24To voter identities.
33:25But.
33:26Now suddenly you've come up with 11 documents.
33:28Five of which.
33:29As the Hindus Vijayta Singh has pointed out.
33:31Does not even have place of birth or date of birth on it.
33:34Okay.
33:35Allow us.
33:36In this situation.
33:37Where millions are running in a bureaucratic exercise madly.
33:39When I said Noida.
33:40And.
33:41And.
33:42And say.
33:43A.
33:44A.
33:45A.
33:46A.
33:47A.
33:48A.
33:49A.
33:50A.
33:51A.
33:52A.
33:53A.
33:54A.
33:55A.
33:56A.
33:57A.
33:58A.
33:59A.
34:00B.
34:01A.
34:02A.
34:03A.
34:07A.
34:11A.
34:12A.
34:13A.
34:14A.
34:15I completely agree it's the job of the Ministry of Home Affairs to ensure our borders are safe, Ministry of Home Affairs, Ministry of Defense.
34:21The same Home Minister has been crying in the state of West Bengal that I'm not getting land.
34:28A lot of infiltration is taking place from the state of West Bengal.
34:31Illegal Bangladeshis are coming in.
34:33He has come in powers.
34:33He does not have powers.
34:35He's had seven meetings.
34:37He's his chief secretary with the home secretary, with the chief secretary.
34:41They are not getting border outposts.
34:42They cannot build.
34:43They cannot protect.
34:44And infiltration is taking place.
34:46So, sir, there are practical problems.
34:47When you go down on ground, you will realize there are practical problems.
34:50But I think Preeti, I don't follow your dictum.
34:53By my standard, the fact that there are hundreds and thousands of illegal immigrants,
34:58we've seen cases coming up, we've reported on stories coming up,
35:02who've managed to get Aadhaar cards, who've managed to get voter cards,
35:06who've managed to get ration cards, who've managed to get birth records, by the way.
35:10There are cases that we have reported where the so-called birth record in the village has been manipulated by the village Pradhan because he was given money.
35:22Where do you draw the line then for verification?
35:24And the moment you create this question of verification, and you don't give enough time for verification or redressal,
35:32how exactly do you show that X isn't illegal and Y is not...
35:38Preeti, just to sort of keep it light, Rajiv, my friend, Rajiv, my friend...
35:46Rajiv, go on back to the Limbledon match.
35:47No, no, no, no, I'm just going to read out a press list.
35:50Yes, a small question, small question, but allow me to finish.
35:53On defending the PMC.
35:54But allow me to finish.
35:55No, no, one minute, madam.
35:56Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah.
35:57No, no, no, one minute.
35:57I don't want a slight remark.
35:59I will give a straight remark.
36:00No, no, no, you must.
36:01I don't want a question.
36:02No, no, you must.
36:02I don't want a question.
36:04No, sir, you must.
36:04No, no, one minute.
36:05Mr. Zarabi, I just want to...
36:06I want to engage in a healthy conversation.
36:07No, no, no, no, no.
36:08No, no, no, I must first tell the audience this.
36:11The election commission of India has initiated discussions and technical consultations
36:15to explore the possibility of linking Aadhar with electoral photo identity cards epic,
36:21also known as voter IDs.
36:23So one minute you are doing that, and next minute you are going and saying I don't need Aadhar.
36:27Can I answer that?
36:28Sure.
36:28Yes.
36:29So this is, if you've read SIR, as he claims he's read and he's the most knowledgeable on this,
36:33page number 16 of 19 pages adds this up and Aadhaar number as an option has been added here.
36:40And it was only after this entire exercise was taken under that they realized that there is a lot of discrepancy,
36:46there is Aadhaar saturation in many areas and that is why probably they've gone in this direction.
36:51You said this five weeks earlier, why did you then next morning get up and decide I should check someone's paper?
36:56This can't be an argument.
36:57But the Aadhaar saturation, please zoom in and show it to people who probably read or not read.
37:05No, no, one minute, it's no longer, that's not an answer, she's not giving me what changed in four weeks.
37:10No, I've given you an answer, you choose not to give me the answer.
37:12No, no, in four weeks what has changed?
37:13Okay, but Aadhaar saturation, two, three things, two, three, three, two, three things.
37:17Please make it light Siddharth, I'm moving on.
37:19So you know, whenever the latest test match has started, I wonder if the pitch is prepared one year in advance
37:26or maybe two days in advance, point number one.
37:29Good one.
37:29And since Rajdeep is watching Wimbledon, when are the covers taken off a year ago or just before the match?
37:36And when it rains, when do you bring on the covers?
37:38But it's only for a particular match.
37:40But it's only for a particular match, please, on all matches.
37:43No, no, no, no, no.
37:44He said, I like to give you, I did not make such stupid comments.
37:48Well, you know, you can say, what about me?
37:50I refuse to dignify that with the response.
37:56Don't do that.
37:56Let's not.
37:58Let's not get into this.
37:59No, no, you're making inane remarks.
38:01You're comparing removing covers in a tennis match to election.
38:04No, you're watching him.
38:05I am.
38:06He can't abuse.
38:07No, he can't.
38:08I said he can't use that.
38:09No, no, you didn't.
38:10I did.
38:11You're looking at him and telling him.
38:12I did.
38:13I told him.
38:14Sit, sit, sit, sit.
38:15Sit, sit, sit.
38:16Sit, sit, sit.
38:17You are the maximum.
38:19Sit.
38:20You are the maximum.
38:21So I think we've...
38:22Okay.
38:23But just...
38:24I had the...
38:25This is the...
38:26One second.
38:27Let me...
38:28This is the first for democratic newsroom where we've had a walkout.
38:30Rajdeep has walked out, though he says he has a show.
38:32But I think we're going to temper things.
38:34You should have known.
38:35The moment you invited me here, you should have known.
38:36Let's see.
38:37No, no.
38:38You'd be surprised, Anjana.
38:39It's a regular feature.
38:40We were waiting for it to happen.
38:42If it's not you, it's between him and Gaurav.
38:45But let's temper down.
38:46We have about eight minutes.
38:47Let's all keep our points of views.
38:49Make sure.
38:50I just wanted to add one more point.
38:51Quickly.
38:52To the cricket pitch and the Wimbledon court.
38:54And the point is we must be very calmly assess which are those districts in India where there
39:03are serious issues, documented issues by multiple agencies, Preeti, of infiltration.
39:08That's point number one.
39:09Number two, we know that the Aadhaar, the way it was issued and there is not enough time
39:16and the different variations that happened due to various orders and executive decisions.
39:22The Aadhaar database today is not a foolproof database.
39:27Despite biometrics.
39:29And go to Twitter and you will see a lot of people questioning it.
39:33But Twitter can't be the benchmark.
39:34Twitter can't be the benchmark.
39:35It's just the Ministry of Home Affairs.
39:36Ten seconds.
39:37Ten seconds.
39:38You've got up ten seconds.
39:39Everyone will get to make their point.
39:41Make it ten seconds, but quickly.
39:42Anjana's point, and because you know,
39:45it was said that we are sitting in an air conditioning room.
39:49Sixty-six people of the possible respondents have already complied.
39:54Fill their point, okay.
39:55We should give their judgment and the power of the Indian voter
40:00and every few years he teaches us all the lesson that he knows best.
40:04Okay, fair point.
40:05So you've made your point.
40:06I have a point.
40:07Yeah, everyone, everyone.
40:08Okay, so my point here is you made a good point that Bihar,
40:10because it's a state of migration, there are several rural areas
40:13and Rajdeep also said the same thing, that not everyone has documents.
40:17That is what has been misused in border states like Bihar, Bengal, even Punjab.
40:22That is where infiltration comes in and you use the same argument to say,
40:26but you cannot check everyone's documents.
40:28but that's where this exercise needs to be carried out, one.
40:31But the EC cannot check for citizenship.
40:33That's right.
40:34EC has no mandate on checking.
40:35But how is EC checking citizenship?
40:37What is this?
40:38They are just checking electoral rolls.
40:41You are extrapolating that it means that they are saying Bangladesh is wrong.
40:45You have to prove citizenship.
40:46What are they saying?
40:47You have to prove citizenship.
40:48You only have to show.
40:49You have to prove citizenship.
40:50You have to prove citizenship.
40:51No.
40:52Pure eligibility to be on the voter list.
40:54Yes.
40:55On the voter list.
40:56There is no citizenship.
40:57Therefore, by proving citizenship.
40:59And I wonder what was wrong with that.
41:00I still wonder what is wrong with that.
41:02Okay.
41:03Make your point.
41:04Let's be running out of time.
41:05And second point, importantly, objecting now that he is not here, Rajdeep.
41:09But all of us, I think most of us have reported from Bihar.
41:12I have extensively reported.
41:13And I can tell you, a Bihari is an intelligent voter.
41:16I am pretty sure they know how to ensure to provide the right documents,
41:20to be on the voting roll and to ensure they are able to win.
41:23We are constantly judging, again from a noidal democratic newsroom to say,
41:27they can't do it.
41:28They don't have facilities.
41:29They don't have the opportunity.
41:30Okay.
41:31Maybe they do.
41:32Quickly, quickly.
41:33Everyone, I don't have the time.
41:34I need to move on.
41:35It's your show next.
41:36There is a process that is currently underway.
41:38And I didn't run away from the debate.
41:39Make your point.
41:40My show next.
41:41And yet, I am here.
41:42Make your point.
41:43The point is, this is addressing the many demographic changes
41:46that may have taken place in Bihar that hasn't been addressed already.
41:49The, you know, it's under-reporting of deaths has been an issue
41:53that has been found out.
41:54This is the election commission stating on record that when they went through
41:58record rolls, they found out there's been under-reporting of deaths.
42:02Migration and urbanization are issues that haven't been addressed.
42:04Okay.
42:05How is this happening?
42:06They're eliminating eligible voters.
42:08There are 78,000 BLOs in the process.
42:11There are 20,000 additional BLOs.
42:13There are 100,000 volunteers.
42:15They're going door to door.
42:16The entire process is transparent.
42:18All right.
42:19Anjana, make your final points.
42:20I'm going to close this off.
42:21It is not only given to every political party.
42:22A question from a viewer.
42:23To a political party.
42:24Quick.
42:25Tell me.
42:26Tell me.
42:27It says, Gaurav, it says, somebody has just sent me this.
42:30In fact, a colleague is saying this is form 6.
42:32Yes.
42:33Where is Aadhaar being made mandatory?
42:35For you.
42:36Siddharth.
42:37Why is Preeti insisting on this?
42:38I'm not insisting on this.
42:39You know what I'm saying?
42:40She's asked me a question.
42:41This is for you.
42:42He's asked me a question.
42:43Form 6.
42:44Just a question on Aadhaar.
42:45If I'm allowed to answer that question, three things today.
42:47You want to be a voter?
42:48Form 6, tell him to look in three things.
42:50You need to be 18 years of age.
42:52For that, you have to provide your Aadhaar.
42:54I'm answering whoever has messaged you.
42:56Right?
42:57Number two, you need to give proof of residence.
42:59Preferably in the same constituency.
43:00What's your proof for that?
43:01Aadhaar.
43:02Number three, you need to be-
43:03Not only Aadhaar.
43:04Allow.
43:05Allow.
43:06Allow me.
43:07Allow me to finish.
43:08Number three, you need to give proof of citizen.
43:10You don't need to give Aadhaar for that.
43:12So, you don't need to prove no other document.
43:14On the basis of Aadhaar, for the earlier two tick boxes that you checked, your proof is Aadhaar.
43:20Final-
43:21Not only Aadhaar.
43:22Aadhaar on Form 6, yes.
43:24Birth Certificate for AVI.
43:26And birth certificate for driving license.
43:29If you give your Aadhaar.
43:31If you give your Aadhaar, you are through.
43:34No.
43:35If you give your Aadhaar.
43:36But it is not only Aadhaar.
43:37It also says any other document.
43:39But you can give your Aadhaar.
43:41Just your Aadhaar as well will work.
43:43But it is not mandatory.
43:44Nobody is saying it is mandatory.
43:46But just the Aadhaar works.
43:47Only Aadhaar.
43:48Which is not the case in this.
43:50Birth Certificate.
43:51Birth Certificate.
43:52Birth Certificate.
43:53Birth Certificate.
43:54I am suggesting.
43:55SESC Certificate.
43:56Forest Right Certificate.
43:57Family Right Certificate.
43:58Land.
43:59You can keep rattling off.
44:00Because I have got facts.
44:01Good.
44:02But Gaurav, the fact is also.
44:04I am studying.
44:05Just keep Aadhaar.
44:06Without Aadhaar, you will get a voter ID in this country.
44:09Just on Aadhaar.
44:11Your final point.
44:13He is not here.
44:14Now one minute and 30 seconds.
44:1630 seconds only.
44:1730 seconds.
44:18I don't need more than that.
44:19Number one.
44:20All these armchair journalists who sit in Noida studios in air condition.
44:24And who look down upon other reporters who go out in the field and do like 30 days of continuous political ground reporting.
44:31Should stop judging people and take this high holy position.
44:35And they should try and understand if a country is trying to make its system more transparent.
44:40And if in bordering places in West Bengal or in Bihar or in Assam or these places.
44:45There are people who are not citizens of India but still voting.
44:49They have to be weeded out.
44:50And any effort made towards that should be understood.
44:53Final comment.
44:54Final comment.
44:55And at the risk of repeating myself.
44:57Nobody is saying don't do an SIR.
44:59The question that is being raised is about process.
45:02As far as that entire emphasis on 60 percent, 66 percent, etc. is concerned.
45:07Nobody has the right to opt out.
45:09You have a form that has to be filled.
45:12If you had the option to say I did not do it.
45:15Then that question would be what is the voter looking at.
45:18You cannot not fill that form.
45:21If you don't fill that form.
45:22If you don't fill that form, you are not a voter.
45:24If you don't fill that form, you will be chucked out of the voter list.
45:27You will be said that you are not a voter.
45:29It's equal to voter.
45:30Allow.
45:31Please allow.
45:32Allow.
45:33It's equal to voter.
45:34How can you in a democracy say I will chuck out people from the voter list without giving them the proper or right to say it.
45:41Why do you allow voter?
45:42I am going to enter.
45:43So, let me.
45:44It's time to enter.
45:45The voter lets me choose.
45:47All right.
45:48Okay, Anish.
45:49It is the time to file out of this debate.
45:50But yeah, we are all pro-choice.
45:51All right.
45:52Everybody is pro-choice.
45:53Ultimately, there are two courts in this country.
45:55One, where this matter is still being heard.
45:57And the other, which is the people's court.
45:59The people will decide.
46:01Opinion is rife, as you can see.
46:03We've had quite a bit of opinion coming through.
46:06But that's just opinion.
46:08We leave it at that.
46:09Thank you for joining us on The Democrat Time.
46:13Well done.
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