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Syria's quest for 'national unity': On paper, principles of diversity & inclusivity 'almost perfect'
FRANCE 24 English
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2/14/2025
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00:00
Thank you very much for being with us.
00:12
Emmanuel Macron is calling for unity in Syria to stop any possible resurgence of extremism.
00:18
This came at a one-day conference on the future of Syria held here in Paris, Macron urging
00:23
the transitional powers to work together to avoid a return of the Islamic State terror
00:28
group.
00:29
The future then discussed just two months after Bashar al-Assad's regime was overthrown.
00:33
The leader of the rebel movement, now going of course under his real name, is urging calm
00:37
and cooperation.
00:38
Meanwhile, the French Foreign Minister Jean-Noël Barrault says, our aim is clear, to help Syria
00:43
and help Syrians rebuild their country.
00:47
So let's hear from President Macron and Foreign Minister Barrault.
00:53
Syria's sovereignty must be respected.
00:55
That is why we are calling for a ceasefire throughout Syria, including in the north and
00:58
northeast, and for an end to foreign interference, including in the south.
01:04
Syria must clearly continue to fight against all the terrorist organizations that are sowing
01:09
chaos for you and in your country and that want to export it.
01:15
A successful transition is above all one that integrates and promotes all the components
01:19
of a plural Syrian society.
01:22
We consider that the national dialogue you have announced, and which we hope will be
01:25
held shortly, is an important signal if it takes into account the aspirations of all
01:30
Syrians, regardless of their religion, language, community or gender.
01:37
This story, very important indeed, we've got two guests to discuss the situation and what
01:41
it all means.
01:42
James Andre, our special correspondent, has been of course covering the story from the
01:46
start.
01:47
He was in Damascus as Assad was falling and as the new team was taking over there.
01:52
Joining us from afar is Marc Pierini, visiting fellow at Carnegie Europe.
01:56
Marc, thank you for being with us.
01:58
I'm going to ask James first to give us a sense of what was said at the conference.
02:01
Yeah, absolutely.
02:02
I was at that conference earlier on and basically what we saw was a conference that is considered
02:07
a success, both by President Macron and also by Foreign Affairs Minister Barrault, who
02:11
both stressed the fact that there had been a common declaration signed by 20 countries
02:16
for international organizations, including the UN and the EU.
02:21
And indeed, while France basically stated what it sees as being the main goals when
02:26
it comes to rebuilding Syria and kind of trying to set the agenda with Emmanuel Macron, basically
02:32
giving four main directions, I'd say.
02:35
The first one is security.
02:36
This is something that's been stressed by both of these French representatives, which
02:41
is indeed not seeing resurgence of the Islamic State group.
02:44
And also they talk about another terror organization, in this case, you know, saying that they were
02:49
operating in neighboring Lebanon.
02:51
Of course, they're talking about, you know, Hezbollah that was fed with weapons through
02:57
Syria for years.
02:58
So this is one thing that they don't want to see.
03:00
They want, you know, to see unity in the country.
03:02
Indeed, that there will be – this is one of Ahmad al-Sharif's stated objective is
03:05
to create a unified Syrian army.
03:09
He wants all militias and armed groups to be disbanded and to join a national army.
03:15
And also, well, when it comes to governance, one of the objectives of the state is to have
03:19
something inclusive in which all the components of the Syrian society are included.
03:23
Then there is humanitarian aid, because for now – and we'll probably talk about that
03:27
in a minute – but sanctions being lifted is a complex process, so there's a sense
03:30
of urgency when it comes to financing what's happening in Syria right now.
03:35
And then the fourth one is transitional justice and the need for justice for the victims of
03:39
the Bashar al-Assad regime, as well as actually preserving the evidence of what happened and
03:44
remembering it.
03:45
And these were basically what has been said.
03:47
Another important thing that Emmanuel Macron said is that, yes, he has extended an invitation
03:51
to Ahmad al-Sharif to visit Paris in weeks to come.
03:54
So this is what happened, if you will, at that conference today.
03:58
So there's a sense that al-Sharif, who at the offset appeared to be this extremist character,
04:04
has now converted into what looks like a more moderate character.
04:07
This is a real transition.
04:08
Well, this is the question everyone is asking themselves around the table.
04:12
And interestingly, today I was able to ask a couple of questions to the EU commissioner
04:17
who was representing the EU at this meeting, and I said, right, so you're talking about
04:22
potentially lifting sanctions.
04:24
Do you trust Ahmed al-Sharif and HTS, so Ayatollah al-Sham, which is considered a terrorist movement
04:31
by the US, by the EU?
04:33
And she said, look, these are the stakeholders who are around the table today.
04:36
So these are the people we have to work with, and what we want to see is things getting
04:40
better.
04:41
And she also said, look, it takes a unanimity of the 27 countries of the EU to lift these
04:47
sanctions, and we cannot snap them back.
04:51
So we're going cautiously.
04:52
So this is what she said, and I think that is very much what a lot of players around
04:56
the table are thinking at this stage.
04:58
What exactly does this new power in Damascus want to do?
05:03
Are they actually going to transition to some other power?
05:06
For now, we've seen Ahmed al-Sharif become the interim government, but I've been there
05:10
twice, 10 days for France 24 in the past couple of months.
05:13
And what we are seeing is HTS going to great lengths to prove that this is what it's doing,
05:20
to show itself as inclusive, to protect minorities.
05:22
And they are actually doing it to a large extent, but they lack means to do it properly
05:27
and completely.
05:28
Let's bring in Mark Pirini, visiting fellow at Carnegie.
05:30
Mark, you've heard what James has had to say, and I know you've got your views on this subject,
05:35
which is why we're giving you the floor now to tell us what you think.
05:38
I'll start by asking you what you think is the biggest challenge that Syria is facing.
05:43
Well, it's national unity.
05:47
As James Sandry just said, the principles that have been mentioned by the interim president
05:54
al-Jarrah, by the foreign minister Shibani in the weeks recently or today are just fine.
06:03
Diversity, ethnic and religious diversity, inclusive elections, inclusive government,
06:09
reconstruction, etc.
06:10
We could have written this ourselves.
06:12
When you listen to the words of President Macron or Foreign Minister Barreau, they're
06:17
essentially using the words of al-Jarrah.
06:21
So on paper, it is almost perfect.
06:25
The problem is that in the past, Mr. al-Jarrah, who was called by his war name Giuliani, had
06:32
done horrible things, and he's still on the terrorist list.
06:37
So basically, not only the Europeans are proceeding with caution, but they're proceeding with
06:45
a few misgivings as well.
06:47
So 1st of March is a key date, because this is when the formal permanent government of
06:55
Syria will be formed.
06:58
Yesterday, Shibani said that it will include all the representatives of the diverse Syrian
07:06
society.
07:07
Unfortunately, he said, as far as possible.
07:11
So this is where the misgivings are.
07:14
How many Christians are going to be in the government?
07:16
How many Druze are going to be in the government?
07:18
How many Kurds are going to be in the government?
07:21
We don't know yet.
07:22
So that is an important element.
07:24
Other than that, of course, you have external actors such as Turkey, such as the Gulf countries
07:31
or even Israel, and everybody has a stake there.
07:36
Mark, thank you.
07:37
James.
07:38
Yeah, no, simply I wanted to just state the fact that, you know, as I say, I was there
07:43
10 days ago.
07:44
What's interesting is when you're actually on the streets, I saw things which I thought
07:48
when initially when I saw Al-Sharaa and HTS take power, I didn't think I'd see.
07:53
For example, I saw a group of Alawite protesters on the streets in Damascus protesting for
07:59
their children to be released from prison by HTS holding placards and being protected
08:06
by HTS, if you will, police.
08:08
So they are letting this kind of stuff happen.
08:11
I also saw people drawing guns because a group of Islamists basically were handing
08:20
out leaflets at Babtouma, which is the Christian neighborhood, saying that women needed to
08:25
wear veils and the people shouldn't drink alcohol.
08:27
And basically this degenerated in a sort of, you know, a street brawl and guns were fired
08:33
and then everything calmed down again.
08:35
So you know, there is a sense that everybody's weary, including in Syria.
08:39
People are watching and thinking, right, what's going to happen?
08:41
And it's true that you see things that go well, things that go less well.
08:44
But you also see that it is crucial if the West is going to give a chance to Al-Sharaa
08:50
and this government, that they indeed give them financing.
08:53
Because we did, for example, we did a patrol with the police and the policemen were basically
08:59
volunteers. They were not being paid and they were saying we'd love to join the future
09:02
police force. But in order to create that future police force, you need means of money.
09:06
So the question is, are the Europeans and the Western powers and regional powers as
09:11
well think, right, we trust these guys, we're going to give it a shot or not?
09:15
Let's put that to Marc Pierrini. Marc, what should France be doing, do you think?
09:19
What role should France play?
09:21
Well, France is playing together with the EU.
09:26
There is no real difference there.
09:29
In order to take the Syrian leadership to their words, of course, you have additional
09:37
humanitarian assistance that has been decided at the end of January.
09:42
You're going to have more technical missions are going and coming.
09:49
There is preparation underway.
09:51
What is missing for the moment is translating the words of the Syrian leadership into action.
09:57
Once again, the key moment there is 1st of March.
10:02
If there is a comprehensive or inclusive, as they say, government, that will reassure
10:10
the Western leaders.
10:13
Then we will see differences emerging.
10:16
For example, a very important element in reconstructing the state and in bringing security
10:22
in the streets and in the regions is the place of the Syrian Democratic Forces.
10:29
That is essentially a force which is more than twice as big as HTAs and includes about
10:36
the same number of Kurdish fighters as HTAs as fighters.
10:41
So there is a discussion going on.
10:43
Sarah has mentioned that.
10:45
He said we're not there yet.
10:47
He said that a few days ago.
10:48
Of course, it is very important that if you reconstruct a Syrian police and a Syrian
10:56
armed forces, you have all the various components.
10:59
The biggest one is Syrian Democratic Forces.
11:02
They've been mentioned by Macron as being the main fighters against Islamic state fighters
11:09
who are still based in central Syria.
11:13
From a European point of view, from a French point of view in particular,
11:17
there is this fear that Islamic state fighters might still pose a threat to France and a
11:24
few other European countries.
11:26
Also, European nationals being detained in the camp in eastern Syria called Al-Hol, who
11:34
have been fighting with Islamic state.
11:36
These people, if they're let loose, they might present a risk as well.
11:42
So certainly, anti-terrorism cooperation is a very important element in the cooperation
11:49
there.
11:50
I would mention another one, which is not only reconstructing the state, but reconstructing
11:54
the people.
11:56
Transitional justice, memory of what has happened.
11:59
This is extremely important for the Syrian people to get over this tragedy that has lasted
12:06
14 years.
12:07
Completely hear what you're saying.
12:08
Mark Pirini of Carnegie Europe.
12:09
Thank you, sir, for joining us very much indeed.
12:11
James, quick word.
12:12
Simply to say that indeed during this conference, France restated, through the voice of Emmanuel
12:17
Macron, that they want to make sure their allies with Syrian democratic forces in the
12:22
fight against the Islamic state group are indeed being backed at the moment in the face
12:27
of Turkey not being very much for that.
12:29
And the last thing is that the United States, for now, we still don't know exactly what
12:33
they want to do.
12:34
They sent a low-level delegation to this conference.
12:39
And it's very, very unclear where the Trump administration stands on Syria at this stage.
12:45
So we'll have to see.
12:45
That doesn't help.
12:46
James Andre, our special correspondent, who's been following the change in Syria from the
12:52
start.
12:52
Thank you for bringing your insight to us on this conference.
12:54
And thanks again to Mark Pirini of Carnegie Europe for bringing his insight to the table
13:00
too.
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