Syria's quest for 'national unity': On paper, principles of diversity & inclusivity 'almost perfect'

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00:00Thank you very much for being with us.

00:12Emmanuel Macron is calling for unity in Syria to stop any possible resurgence of extremism.

00:18This came at a one-day conference on the future of Syria held here in Paris, Macron urging

00:23the transitional powers to work together to avoid a return of the Islamic State terror

00:28group.

00:29The future then discussed just two months after Bashar al-Assad's regime was overthrown.

00:33The leader of the rebel movement, now going of course under his real name, is urging calm

00:37and cooperation.

00:38Meanwhile, the French Foreign Minister Jean-Noël Barrault says, our aim is clear, to help Syria

00:43and help Syrians rebuild their country.

00:47So let's hear from President Macron and Foreign Minister Barrault.

00:53Syria's sovereignty must be respected.

00:55That is why we are calling for a ceasefire throughout Syria, including in the north and

00:58northeast, and for an end to foreign interference, including in the south.

01:04Syria must clearly continue to fight against all the terrorist organizations that are sowing

01:09chaos for you and in your country and that want to export it.

01:15A successful transition is above all one that integrates and promotes all the components

01:19of a plural Syrian society.

01:22We consider that the national dialogue you have announced, and which we hope will be

01:25held shortly, is an important signal if it takes into account the aspirations of all

01:30Syrians, regardless of their religion, language, community or gender.

01:37This story, very important indeed, we've got two guests to discuss the situation and what

01:41it all means.

01:42James Andre, our special correspondent, has been of course covering the story from the

01:46start.

01:47He was in Damascus as Assad was falling and as the new team was taking over there.

01:52Joining us from afar is Marc Pierini, visiting fellow at Carnegie Europe.

01:56Marc, thank you for being with us.

01:58I'm going to ask James first to give us a sense of what was said at the conference.

02:01Yeah, absolutely.

02:02I was at that conference earlier on and basically what we saw was a conference that is considered

02:07a success, both by President Macron and also by Foreign Affairs Minister Barrault, who

02:11both stressed the fact that there had been a common declaration signed by 20 countries

02:16for international organizations, including the UN and the EU.

02:21And indeed, while France basically stated what it sees as being the main goals when

02:26it comes to rebuilding Syria and kind of trying to set the agenda with Emmanuel Macron, basically

02:32giving four main directions, I'd say.

02:35The first one is security.

02:36This is something that's been stressed by both of these French representatives, which

02:41is indeed not seeing resurgence of the Islamic State group.

02:44And also they talk about another terror organization, in this case, you know, saying that they were

02:49operating in neighboring Lebanon.

02:51Of course, they're talking about, you know, Hezbollah that was fed with weapons through

02:57Syria for years.

02:58So this is one thing that they don't want to see.

03:00They want, you know, to see unity in the country.

03:02Indeed, that there will be – this is one of Ahmad al-Sharif's stated objective is

03:05to create a unified Syrian army.

03:09He wants all militias and armed groups to be disbanded and to join a national army.

03:15And also, well, when it comes to governance, one of the objectives of the state is to have

03:19something inclusive in which all the components of the Syrian society are included.

03:23Then there is humanitarian aid, because for now – and we'll probably talk about that

03:27in a minute – but sanctions being lifted is a complex process, so there's a sense

03:30of urgency when it comes to financing what's happening in Syria right now.

03:35And then the fourth one is transitional justice and the need for justice for the victims of

03:39the Bashar al-Assad regime, as well as actually preserving the evidence of what happened and

03:44remembering it.

03:45And these were basically what has been said.

03:47Another important thing that Emmanuel Macron said is that, yes, he has extended an invitation

03:51to Ahmad al-Sharif to visit Paris in weeks to come.

03:54So this is what happened, if you will, at that conference today.

03:58So there's a sense that al-Sharif, who at the offset appeared to be this extremist character,

04:04has now converted into what looks like a more moderate character.

04:07This is a real transition.

04:08Well, this is the question everyone is asking themselves around the table.

04:12And interestingly, today I was able to ask a couple of questions to the EU commissioner

04:17who was representing the EU at this meeting, and I said, right, so you're talking about

04:22potentially lifting sanctions.

04:24Do you trust Ahmed al-Sharif and HTS, so Ayatollah al-Sham, which is considered a terrorist movement

04:31by the US, by the EU?

04:33And she said, look, these are the stakeholders who are around the table today.

04:36So these are the people we have to work with, and what we want to see is things getting

04:40better.

04:41And she also said, look, it takes a unanimity of the 27 countries of the EU to lift these

04:47sanctions, and we cannot snap them back.

04:51So we're going cautiously.

04:52So this is what she said, and I think that is very much what a lot of players around

04:56the table are thinking at this stage.

04:58What exactly does this new power in Damascus want to do?

05:03Are they actually going to transition to some other power?

05:06For now, we've seen Ahmed al-Sharif become the interim government, but I've been there

05:10twice, 10 days for France 24 in the past couple of months.

05:13And what we are seeing is HTS going to great lengths to prove that this is what it's doing,

05:20to show itself as inclusive, to protect minorities.

05:22And they are actually doing it to a large extent, but they lack means to do it properly

05:27and completely.

05:28Let's bring in Mark Pirini, visiting fellow at Carnegie.

05:30Mark, you've heard what James has had to say, and I know you've got your views on this subject,

05:35which is why we're giving you the floor now to tell us what you think.

05:38I'll start by asking you what you think is the biggest challenge that Syria is facing.

05:43Well, it's national unity.

05:47As James Sandry just said, the principles that have been mentioned by the interim president

05:54al-Jarrah, by the foreign minister Shibani in the weeks recently or today are just fine.

06:03Diversity, ethnic and religious diversity, inclusive elections, inclusive government,

06:09reconstruction, etc.

06:10We could have written this ourselves.

06:12When you listen to the words of President Macron or Foreign Minister Barreau, they're

06:17essentially using the words of al-Jarrah.

06:21So on paper, it is almost perfect.

06:25The problem is that in the past, Mr. al-Jarrah, who was called by his war name Giuliani, had

06:32done horrible things, and he's still on the terrorist list.

06:37So basically, not only the Europeans are proceeding with caution, but they're proceeding with

06:45a few misgivings as well.

06:47So 1st of March is a key date, because this is when the formal permanent government of

06:55Syria will be formed.

06:58Yesterday, Shibani said that it will include all the representatives of the diverse Syrian

07:06society.

07:07Unfortunately, he said, as far as possible.

07:11So this is where the misgivings are.

07:14How many Christians are going to be in the government?

07:16How many Druze are going to be in the government?

07:18How many Kurds are going to be in the government?

07:21We don't know yet.

07:22So that is an important element.

07:24Other than that, of course, you have external actors such as Turkey, such as the Gulf countries

07:31or even Israel, and everybody has a stake there.

07:36Mark, thank you.

07:37James.

07:38Yeah, no, simply I wanted to just state the fact that, you know, as I say, I was there

07:4310 days ago.

07:44What's interesting is when you're actually on the streets, I saw things which I thought

07:48when initially when I saw Al-Sharaa and HTS take power, I didn't think I'd see.

07:53For example, I saw a group of Alawite protesters on the streets in Damascus protesting for

07:59their children to be released from prison by HTS holding placards and being protected

08:06by HTS, if you will, police.

08:08So they are letting this kind of stuff happen.

08:11I also saw people drawing guns because a group of Islamists basically were handing

08:20out leaflets at Babtouma, which is the Christian neighborhood, saying that women needed to

08:25wear veils and the people shouldn't drink alcohol.

08:27And basically this degenerated in a sort of, you know, a street brawl and guns were fired

08:33and then everything calmed down again.

08:35So you know, there is a sense that everybody's weary, including in Syria.

08:39People are watching and thinking, right, what's going to happen?

08:41And it's true that you see things that go well, things that go less well.

08:44But you also see that it is crucial if the West is going to give a chance to Al-Sharaa

08:50and this government, that they indeed give them financing.

08:53Because we did, for example, we did a patrol with the police and the policemen were basically

08:59volunteers. They were not being paid and they were saying we'd love to join the future

09:02police force. But in order to create that future police force, you need means of money.

09:06So the question is, are the Europeans and the Western powers and regional powers as

09:11well think, right, we trust these guys, we're going to give it a shot or not?

09:15Let's put that to Marc Pierrini. Marc, what should France be doing, do you think?

09:19What role should France play?

09:21Well, France is playing together with the EU.

09:26There is no real difference there.

09:29In order to take the Syrian leadership to their words, of course, you have additional

09:37humanitarian assistance that has been decided at the end of January.

09:42You're going to have more technical missions are going and coming.

09:49There is preparation underway.

09:51What is missing for the moment is translating the words of the Syrian leadership into action.

09:57Once again, the key moment there is 1st of March.

10:02If there is a comprehensive or inclusive, as they say, government, that will reassure

10:10the Western leaders.

10:13Then we will see differences emerging.

10:16For example, a very important element in reconstructing the state and in bringing security

10:22in the streets and in the regions is the place of the Syrian Democratic Forces.

10:29That is essentially a force which is more than twice as big as HTAs and includes about

10:36the same number of Kurdish fighters as HTAs as fighters.

10:41So there is a discussion going on.

10:43Sarah has mentioned that.

10:45He said we're not there yet.

10:47He said that a few days ago.

10:48Of course, it is very important that if you reconstruct a Syrian police and a Syrian

10:56armed forces, you have all the various components.

10:59The biggest one is Syrian Democratic Forces.

11:02They've been mentioned by Macron as being the main fighters against Islamic state fighters

11:09who are still based in central Syria.

11:13From a European point of view, from a French point of view in particular,

11:17there is this fear that Islamic state fighters might still pose a threat to France and a

11:24few other European countries.

11:26Also, European nationals being detained in the camp in eastern Syria called Al-Hol, who

11:34have been fighting with Islamic state.

11:36These people, if they're let loose, they might present a risk as well.

11:42So certainly, anti-terrorism cooperation is a very important element in the cooperation

11:49there.

11:50I would mention another one, which is not only reconstructing the state, but reconstructing

11:54the people.

11:56Transitional justice, memory of what has happened.

11:59This is extremely important for the Syrian people to get over this tragedy that has lasted

12:0614 years.

12:07Completely hear what you're saying.

12:08Mark Pirini of Carnegie Europe.

12:09Thank you, sir, for joining us very much indeed.

12:11James, quick word.

12:12Simply to say that indeed during this conference, France restated, through the voice of Emmanuel

12:17Macron, that they want to make sure their allies with Syrian democratic forces in the

12:22fight against the Islamic state group are indeed being backed at the moment in the face

12:27of Turkey not being very much for that.

12:29And the last thing is that the United States, for now, we still don't know exactly what

12:33they want to do.

12:34They sent a low-level delegation to this conference.

12:39And it's very, very unclear where the Trump administration stands on Syria at this stage.

12:45So we'll have to see.

12:45That doesn't help.

12:46James Andre, our special correspondent, who's been following the change in Syria from the

12:52start.

12:52Thank you for bringing your insight to us on this conference.

12:54And thanks again to Mark Pirini of Carnegie Europe for bringing his insight to the table

13:00too.

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