'Unprecedented': First time since WWII that German parliament needs support of far right to pass a law

FRANCE 24 English

Visit our website: http://www.france24.com  Like us on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FRANCE24.English  Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/France24_en

Transcript

00:00Germany's parliament is to vote on whether to ban the far-right AFD.

00:06The decision to stage a debate and a vote on this comes just weeks before snap elections

00:13in the country on February the 23rd, the AFD polling second.

00:19Meanwhile, Angela Merkel has blasted her own CDU for breaking the firewall against the

00:25AFD.

00:26First time ever at the national parliament that the conservatives have allied themselves

00:31with the far-right.

00:32This was on a non-binding anti-immigrant resolution on Wednesday.

00:38For more, let's cross to correspondent Nick Holdsworth in Berlin.

00:42Nick, first off, this vote on whether or not to ban the Alternative for Germany party.

00:50Give us the latest.

00:52Well, I mean, this is a reaction to last night's debate, a non-binding resolution for a sharp

01:01crackdown on immigration called by the head of the CDU and the front runner to be the

01:10new chancellor, Friedrich Merz.

01:13That non-binding resolution last night passed with the support of the AFD.

01:17Now, this comes after Mr Merz had said just last November that he would never seek the

01:22support of the AFD in any parliamentary proceedings.

01:26And today's criticism by his predecessor in the CDU and the former chancellor, Angela

01:31Merkel, criticising Mr Merz for taking on board support from the AFD.

01:37And the AFD have been making political capital about this, saying that it's the dawn of a

01:41new era and that this proves that they are right on immigration.

01:47So it's a very febrile atmosphere and this call for a vote to ban the AFD is a reaction

01:53to that vote last night and to the possibility that if there's another vote coming up on

02:02Friday on a reduction in immigrants' rights, beefing up a police on the borders that would

02:10be a binding vote, would be a new law.

02:15If that were to pass with the support of the AFD, then you're entering entirely new territory.

02:21And in Germany, they're very nervous about breaking what they call the so-called firewall

02:26against the AFD.

02:28They've looked over their shoulders at Austria, where the president there has had to ask the

02:32leader of the right wing Freedom Party to negotiate with centrists to form a new government

02:38after the centrists were unable to agree one themselves.

02:41And this motion to ban the AFD is likely to be extremely controversial and won't sit well

02:48with those 20% of people who in the polls say that they're going to vote for the AFD

02:53at those snap general elections coming up just a few weeks away now on February 23rd.

02:59So what are the chances of this resolution passing at this point?

03:09It's difficult to say.

03:10It would be a very controversial vote if it were passed and it would probably be legally

03:16challenged by the AFD.

03:18It's very hard to say in the current atmosphere.

03:20I mean, this is very unusual for German politics to have this kind of febrile atmosphere, which

03:26is in the context of these recent attacks by immigrants on Germans just last week, a

03:32toddler of two and an adult man knifed to death by a mentally ill Afghan asylum seeker

03:39who'd had his application for asylum refused.

03:42And of course, just in December, just before Christmas, that horrific attack on the market

03:47in Magdeburg, where a man, a Saudi national, drove a car into a crowd of people at a Christmas

03:52market, killing six and injuring over 200.

03:55So it's completely unprecedented, both seeking the support of the AFD and now seeking to

04:00ban the AFD.

04:04Difficult to say how it may all turn out.

04:06Yeah.

04:07And Nick, Nick Holdsworth, what reactions are there where you are to Angela Merkel breaking

04:12her silence, if you will, since she's left office?

04:16The former chancellor has stayed out of politics.

04:20Well, absolutely.

04:23She's been pretty careful about that.

04:25I think that most Germans that I've talked to about this, they seem to think that the

04:33circumstances require that.

04:35Now, it may only have been a small section of the population.

04:39Some may disagree with that.

04:41But I think that her intervention is a signal of just how dangerous perhaps German politics

04:49are becoming right now, that she feels that she should come out and make this public,

04:56criticizing her successor at the CDU.

04:59They didn't get on well when they were both in government together.

05:03We seem to have lost the connection with Nick Holdsworth in Berlin there.

05:09Frederick Mertz and Angela Merkel not getting along well when they were together in government,

05:16he was telling us there.

05:17Well, for more on this, let's turn to a German in Paris.

05:19Armin Steinbach is a professor of law and economics at the French School of Higher Learning,

05:26ACHE-EUX-SÉE.

05:27Thank you for being with us here on France 24.

05:31Did you hear that?

05:32It's French politics where there's supposed to be a lot of drama, not German politics.

05:35Why is this?

05:37Why is there so much drama right now?

05:39And this campaign's been quite acrimonious.

05:42We're not used to this.

05:44We are not used to this.

05:45In Germany, that's true.

05:46Indeed, it is a historical moment in German politics.

05:50The events unfolding since yesterday are unprecedented.

05:53It's the first time in post-war history that a parliamentary majority could be achieved

06:00only with the support of the right-wing party.

06:02So this is only possible due to the anti-migration sentiment in the German population, a wave

06:10on which the AfD is riding, riding successfully.

06:13And this anti-migration sentiment is driven by the attacks that have occurred over the

06:18last couple of months.

06:19And Angela Merkel wading into this, is it that she is above the fray and outraged by

06:29this breaking of what we call in France the Republican firewall around extremist parties?

06:36Or is she settling scores with her rival from within the SEDU, Friedrich Merz?

06:42Probably a bit of both.

06:44What we can be certain is that yesterday's events are the definite breakup with the era

06:50of Angela Merkel.

06:52Angela Merkel pursued a conservative policy that tried to integrate left and wing.

06:57And Friedrich Merz is now swinging ultimately to the right-wing side.

07:02And I think that is an occasion for her that she saw in order to intervene.

07:08Is Friedrich Merz the only one chasing after this anti-immigrant sentiment?

07:15After all, we heard Olaf Scholz earlier this week talk up the idea of sending Afghans and

07:21Syrians back.

07:23Certainly, this is a challenge for all mainstream parties.

07:27What we have seen over the last year is an increased and heightening of the security

07:32measures through laws that Olaf Scholz and his ruling party have been adopted.

07:37So it's really now a contest between the parties who proposes the most strictest and

07:43most restrictive measures on migration.

07:46Now, seeing what's happened here in France, where we've had more and more law and order

07:52tough talk, the new justice minister wants to build a prison just for drug dealers.

08:01There's all kinds of schemes that are being put out, not just by the British, but by the

08:04French and others, to send migrants back.

08:08How do you address the growing anti-immigrant sentiment when you're on the campaign trail?

08:12Well, there is no recipe that is easy to follow.

08:17We have seen indeed all over Europe that centrist parties are trying to take measures by swinging

08:24to the right.

08:25But at the end, if you look at Italy, if you look at Austria or the Netherlands, this has

08:29always been ultimately detrimental to the centrist parties.

08:33So what the way out out of this dilemma in Germany would be that the mainstream parties,

08:39the democratic parties, try to agree on a set of measures that they would pursue together.

08:47Even though we have to be aware that the election, the snap election is coming up.

08:51So there is no space to agree.

08:54It's a moment of disagreement in order to delineate parties from each other for the

08:59election.

09:00How do you get the sense, Armin, that politics from one country kind of bleed into another?

09:06Right now we're all watching what's going on in the US with the last 24 hours, the president

09:11there talking about using Guantanamo to park migrants.

09:17And is that something that's weighing on German politics?

09:21It's definitely weighing on German politics.

09:23And if you look closely, Friedrich Merz is copying Donald Trump.

09:27Friedrich Merz has announced last week that on his first day as a new chancellor, he would

09:33give the order to close the borders and to reject migrants at the border.

09:37This is one to one what Donald Trump has been pursuing.

09:41So this is really the moment for the populace.

09:45Is another German, Ursula von der Leyen, also copying Donald Trump?

09:49I ask the question because on Wednesday she unveiled the European Commission's plan for

09:55the next five years.

09:57And we can take a listen to what she said about how to increase competitiveness.

10:04The administrative procedures are too cumbersome.

10:07We have to cut red tape.

10:11We will deliver an unprecedented simplification effort.

10:16Cutting red tape.

10:18Isn't that what Donald Trump and Elon Musk proclaimed they're going to do with their

10:22Department of Government Efficiency?

10:25Is she also pandering to another of the AFD's big themes, which is the backlash against

10:34green policies?

10:36That is certainly true.

10:37The new European Commission puts competitiveness on number one and the Green Deal has moved

10:43back on number two or three.

10:45However, deregulation is not necessarily a wide wing topic.

10:49Right.

10:50But what we do see and which is critical also in this competitiveness compact that von der

10:55Leyen has released yesterday is that there are protectionist elements.

10:59For example, in procurement, the European Commission will now prefer European products,

11:04buying European.

11:06So this is also something that is a transfer from the U.S.

11:10Von der Leyen claims that by reducing red tape, it's also going to help the green agenda.

11:18Well, this is, of course, debatable.

11:22It is certainly true that it could stimulate growth.

11:24And if you believe that by stimulating the economy and the business sector, allowing

11:29them to invest into new manufacturing sites that would then adopt non-fossil processes,

11:37it could become true.

11:38However, deregulation as such is it's not a green agenda.

11:42How big in Germany on the campaign trail is this backlash against the energy transition?

11:51It is big.

11:52The Green Party is struggling with putting this topic on the political agenda.

11:58We've seen in the last four years a couple of laws that have been adopted by the lawmaker

12:04that brought people up against the Green Deal.

12:08And the populist, the AfD, is the party number one that questions climate change, actually.

12:13And are we going to see more entrenched positions on this?

12:17Or you're the country of compromise and consensus.

12:21Can there be a middle ground on this topic?

12:23In Germany, historically, there has always been a middle ground.

12:26Germany has indeed this culture of compromise, the culture of coalition building.

12:30However, at this moment, I'm more skeptical, especially after the events of yesterday.

12:35Friedrich Merz, if he's elected, he will need to find a coalition partner.

12:39This is going to be much more difficult after what happened yesterday.

12:42So there could be a hung parliament?

12:44There could be a hung parliament, at least for some time.

12:47Something that Germany cannot afford at all.

12:50Germany's economy is doing bad.

12:52There's no growth, no economic growth in Germany.

12:55Economic policy reforms would be necessary.

12:57So the risk is high that there could be a hung parliament.

13:01At the end of the day, when it's touch and go like this in Germany, it always ends with

13:06a grand coalition, doesn't it, where the center left and the center right agree?

13:11That's true.

13:12However, you cannot call it anymore a grand coalition, because the Social Democrats, they

13:16have been declining on only 15 percent of voters the right wing and the left wing parties

13:21have gained.

13:22So grand coalition is a term of the past.

13:24But you are right.

13:25In the past, it was the Christian conservatives and the Social Democrats who finally came

13:30to build middle ground around the controversial topics.

13:33One final question for you, Armin Steinbeck, Elon Musk, when he weighs in so heavily on

13:40German politics, co-hosting a talk on X, formerly Twitter, with the co-leader of the AfD, Alice

13:49Wiedel, for instance, does that help or hurt the far right?

13:53And does that help or hurt the front runner, Friedrich Merz?

13:57Well, it certainly helps the far right.

13:59They now have somebody who's officially supporting them, an American who is very influential

14:05on American politics, helping the AfD.

14:08Obviously, it is perceived as an interference by other German parties, the richest person

14:15of the world trying to influence German politics.

14:18It's a very sensitive issue from the mainstream party's perspective.

14:23Armin Steinbeck of the French business school HEC, thank you so much for being with us here

14:27on France 24.

14:28It was my pleasure.

Category

Transcript

Recommended