'The idea of the respectable family man has really been dented'

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00:00This is Apropos.

00:04His crimes sent shockwaves around the world, prompting a wider debate here in France about

00:09victim shaming and the legal definition of rape.

00:12Dominique Pellicot has been sentenced to 20 years behind bars for drugging and raping

00:16his former wife and inviting other men to abuse her.

00:20Guilty verdicts were also returned for all of his co-accused who received jail terms

00:25of between 3 and 15 years.

00:28But six of them were allowed to walk free from the court having served their time during

00:33pre-trial detention.

00:35Emily Boyle has more.

00:39Outside the gates of the criminal court in Avignon, supporters chanted the words shame

00:44on justice as sentences were handed out in the Pellicot trial.

00:49The atmosphere was tense as a lawyer for one of the condemned men in the mass rape trial

00:53taunted the crowd and called the activists knitters and hysterical.

01:01He boasted that his client was one of the six men walking out freely, having only been

01:06held in provisional detention.

01:09The scene added salt to the wound for many feminist activists who said they felt humiliated

01:14by the sentences.

01:17What bothers me is the notion of different penalties, while they're all the same offence

01:21under the penal code, that's rape and for rape our penal code says 15 years, how is

01:26it that certain men who we recognise have committed rape can walk free after three years?

01:34For activists and observers, the Pellicot trial has highlighted the need to update French

01:39law.

01:40In the absence of consent as a legal criterion in France, defence lawyers were able to argue

01:45that the aggressors thought they were taking part in a consensual fantasy.

01:53If we had in our French criminal law the obligation for the person who initiates sexual contact

01:59to ensure they have consent free of any coercion, the accused would not even have been able

02:04to plead a belief in consent since Mrs Pellicot never said yes.

02:11The country's criminal code currently defines rape as a sexual act committed by violence,

02:17coercion, threat or surprise, but does not mention whether or not consent is necessary.

02:23France was one of a dozen countries that opposed the EU's recent effort to establish a shared

02:28definition of rape based on the notion of affirmative consent, namely the idea that

02:34only yes means yes.

02:38To discuss, we're joined now by feminist writer Cecile Simmons, a researcher at the Institute

02:44for Strategic Dialogue in the UK.

02:46Good to have you with us this evening.

02:48Giselle Pellicot says she hopes that her ordeal will help to make the world a better place.

02:54Cecile, will this trial and these verdicts prompt wider societal change, do you believe?

03:01I think it already has.

03:02I think this trial is exceptional in its very nature.

03:07I think it has already shifted the conversation about who the perpetrators of sexual abuse

03:11are.

03:12I think the idea of the respectable family man that so many abusers hide behind has really

03:18been dented and I hope in a, you know, in a systematic way.

03:22I think there is also a greater awareness now of, you know, drug induced sexual violence.

03:31And I think we're also starting to, I suppose, reckon with a broader culture that encourages,

03:40you know, violence, sexual violence and the understanding that it's a much more widespread

03:45phenomenon.

03:46And we saw in that report there just a minute ago, some campaigners, including Giselle Pellicot's

03:52children also say that the sentences that Dominique Pellicot's co-accused received were

03:58too lenient, between three and 15 years.

04:02Would you agree with that?

04:04I mean, as has been pointed out, I think a lot of women's rights organisations have rightly

04:12said that some of these sentences can feel quite short, given the horror of what unfolded.

04:21And indeed, some of the men having served sentences before will essentially walk free.

04:28So I think even with a case where we have so much hard evidence and, you know, it's

04:34still, we're still not potentially getting the justice that, you know, rights organisations

04:41might hope for.

04:43And Dominique Pellicot, he himself received a 20 year sentence.

04:47That is the maximum sentence in France for rape.

04:50None of his co-accused did.

04:52In fact, they received sentences that were lower in number of years than prosecutors

04:57had actually requested.

05:00What kind of message does that send?

05:03I think it really sends the message that despite, you know, the progress and the historical

05:08moment that we're witnessing, it is still incredibly hard to get justice for victims.

05:14And indeed, although in this case, all men have been found guilty, we know that only

05:20a tiny proportion of, you know, rape accusations result in any kind of conviction.

05:27We know that in these cases, it's always her word against his word.

05:34And that indeed, there is still a long way to go.

05:37Because research suggests that just about 14% of cases involving allegations of rape

05:43actually make it to trial here in France.

05:45So what needs to change?

05:48Well, I think what we need to sort of understand is just the extent of, you know, rape culture

05:55that we live in.

05:56I think so many, you know, alleged victims of sexual violence, you know, essentially

06:05face so many hurdles in having their audio recognised because, you know, there will always

06:11be questions about what they could have done to prevent it.

06:15There is essentially that is what rape culture is, this normalisation of abuse.

06:21And there is also, you know, there are all sorts of obstacles in getting justice.

06:26I think in this particular case, we had hard evidence because Dominique Pellicot operated

06:32online and there is just an amount of footage and evidence that we don't always have in

06:36these cases. So there are all sorts of obstacles as well.

06:40And then there's a bigger societal obstacle, which is that there is still not enough

06:45awareness of sexual violence in our society.

06:49I think that we haven't seen enough reckoning, especially from men, with the culture that

06:56we've all been socialised in.

06:58And some of the lawyers for the defence were criticised during this trial.

07:02We saw a little bit of that in that report as well, over their line of questioning and

07:07the approach that they took in relation to Giselle Pellicot.

07:10Is that something that prevents other victims from deciding to come forward when they see

07:16how survivors of rape are actually treated during a trial?

07:21Absolutely, and I think that what was particularly striking in this case as well is that so

07:27many men hide behind excuses and so many men have said that, you know,

07:36essentially Giselle Pellicot was in on this abuse.

07:40And it's really hard to sort of understand how these men could have possibly believed

07:45that she was consenting.

07:47And yet we're seeing in multiple cases that, you know, perpetrators of all sorts of abuse

07:54make that claim.

07:55You know, we're seeing it through all sorts of phenomena.

07:59So I think that it can indeed, you know, feel incredibly discouraging to see that we are,

08:07you know, possibly even entertaining these arguments.

08:10And Cecile, not all campaigners are agreed on this, but some women's rights activists,

08:15they believe that the concept of consent should be introduced under French law.

08:20Is that something that you'd be in favour of?

08:23Is it time for legislative reform here in France?

08:27Well, I think that the notion of consent in law is a form of progress for sure.

08:33And I think a lot of countries, including the UK, essentially have a consent based definition.

08:40But I think that consent goes only a certain way in, I suppose, making sure that justice is

08:48made. As I said, there are multiple obstacles to getting justice.

08:52And I also think that consent is a minimal, really, entry point.

08:56And there are a lot of forces that can, you know, coerce us into consenting.

09:01And so really consent is a minimal entry point in general in dealing with issues of sexual

09:06violence. But it is certainly something that in light of this trial, that maybe France

09:12should consider.

09:14And Cecile, these men, they came into contact with Dominique Pellicot through online

09:20forums. Why weren't they shut down and why aren't they being held to account?

09:26I think it is actually quite difficult to hold some of these platforms to account.

09:31They are very good at disguising themselves.

09:35They sometimes move countries or they are, you know, sort of located in different

09:41jurisdictions. And it is, you know, it can be an incredibly arduous process in the case

09:48of the website that Dominique Pellicot used.

09:50Indeed, rights organisations had tried to shut it down for many years.

09:57And, you know, we are seeing that unmoderated online spaces are, you know, they are

10:04a sort of haven for abusers.

10:06They're a place where people share tactical playbooks and where, you know, actually

10:10crimes are also shaped.

10:12And Cecile, much was made of the fact during the trial that these men who were on trial

10:18with Dominique Pellicot came from all walks of life, campaigners pointing out that they

10:23weren't monsters, but ordinary men.

10:26Many people still don't believe women who come forward to make allegations of abuse.

10:31Will this trial change that, do you think?

10:35I mean, we hope that it will change that.

10:37We hope that after such a momentous case, there will be women who, you know, come

10:45forward with suspicions that they may have been drugged, you know, will be receiving, you

10:50know, will be heard by police a lot, a lot more.

10:54We hope that that will change.

10:56But I think that there is still a long way to go and there needs to be a greater reckoning

11:03with the broader culture we're socialised in, which, you know, makes it very difficult

11:10for sexual and violence and rape cases to be taken seriously because so often victims

11:17are shamed, they are questioned and they are blamed as well for what's happened to them.

11:23And that is still the case.

11:25And finally, Cecile, you're joining us tonight from London.

11:27How has this trial been viewed from outside France?

11:32I think everyone has used the same words to describe this trial, really seeing it as a

11:37turning point and really hailing Giselle Pellicot's courage.

11:41And there is really a sense that after, you know, years of impunity towards abusers,

11:48particularly, you know, powerful men accused of abuse, there is, you know, a sort of, I

11:57suppose, a significant change and that that actually will reverberate outside of France

12:02as well and will hopefully, you know, raise awareness of sexual violence elsewhere as

12:10well and change the conversation beyond France.

12:12Cecile, thank you so much for your time on the programme this evening.

12:15We'll have to leave it there for now.

12:17That is Cecile Simmons, feminist writer, joining us live from London.

12:22Well, that is it from us for now.

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