Hardened migration policies reflect 'general dissatisfaction' with EU's political, economic 'health'

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00:00Welcome to the programme. Leaders of European Union countries are gathering today in Brussels

00:10for a summit focused on migration. It is expected to cement a shift to the right in the bloc's

00:17policies towards asylum seekers. And at the heart of the rightward shift is Giorgia Maloney,

00:24Italy's Prime Minister, who in a European first has recently agreed a deal with Albania

00:31to process migrants there. Kemi Knight has the report.

00:37This restaurant in Albania is entirely dedicated to Giorgia Maloney. 70 portraits of the Italian

00:43Prime Minister are plastered on the walls and its location is no coincidence. It's right

00:48by a camp where asylum seekers hoping to enter the EU are being processed, part of a controversial

00:54pact promoted by Maloney.

00:57Do you want to know why I love Maloney? Because Maloney is the only voice in Europe that tells

01:02the truth.

01:05Not everyone agrees with him, but Maloney has certainly been making headlines recently

01:09and even received praise over her hardline immigration plans. NGOs still stand firmly

01:15against them, but a number of leaders, including British Labour Prime Minister Keir Starmer,

01:20have lauded her efforts to curb illegal crossings. Even European Commission President Ursula

01:25von der Leyen has endorsed the far-right leader's plan to establish so-called return hubs outside

01:31EU territory.

01:33Italy has set a good example by signing the Italy-Albania protocol to process asylum claims

01:38on Albanian territory but under Italian and European jurisdiction.

01:42Beyond Europe, Maloney has also established herself as a key partner for migratory cooperation,

01:47visiting North Africa almost a dozen times since coming to power and regularly meeting

01:52with leaders like Tunisia's Cais Saeed. She's also leading a push to normalise ties with

01:57Syria, which have been cut off since 2011. She told the Italian Senate Tuesday that it

02:02was necessary to review the EU strategy for Syria and to work with all actors to create

02:07the conditions for Syrian refugees to return to their homeland.

02:11Maloney has also drawn attention over her condemnation of Israeli attacks on UN peacekeepers,

02:17announcing a visit to Lebanon on Friday that will make her the highest-ranked official

02:21to visit the country since the start of the war.

02:25Well with me on the line live now is Vivian Gravy. She's a lecturer in European politics

02:31at Queen's University in Belfast. She joins us from there. Good afternoon to you and thanks

02:36for joining us.

02:38First of all, on the Italy-Albania deal, do you think that this could be a model for other

02:44European countries to follow?

02:48I think it's fascinating that we are now talking about this when the EU was very critical of

02:55potential UK-Rwanda deal earlier under the previous government in the UK. We're seeing

03:01a radical shift in the EU toward this. And yes, we are seeing Prime Minister Barnier,

03:08we are seeing also Keir Starmer from the UK being very interested in what's happening

03:11in Italy. But it is a big challenge for Europe that the fact that we have a far-right leader

03:16in Italy and that suddenly most European countries are interested. So yes, it is a possibility,

03:22but it is a very concerning one.

03:24Yes, I was going to ask you about Rwanda actually and those UK plans to try and deport migrants

03:31there because that faced lots of legal challenges, didn't it, in European courts as well as in

03:37UK courts. Is this deal agreed between Italy and Albania subject to such challenges or

03:45is this something that is seen, broadly speaking, as legal?

03:49I think there's big differences there around the perception of what's a safe country or

03:54not. And Albania is considered more safe than Rwanda. But we are seeing a move towards not

04:01just thinking of Albania, but we were hearing, for example, from the Austrian chancellor

04:06wanting to say that actually perhaps Syria should be considered a safe country. Similarly,

04:11Maloney was making the same move. So Albania will not take all of EU's asylum seekers.

04:19What we are seeing now is a move towards exporting a lot of our asylum seekers in countries

04:26that are not actually safe, but that there's going to be push to declare them safe.

04:30And that was what happened in the UK, where you had then actually a law passed through

04:35Westminster to consider Rwanda safe, because the courts had told the government Rwanda

04:42is not safe. And so then the government had to pass a law making it safe. And so we are

04:47entering in a weird territory where whether a country is safe or not for refugees is not

04:54going to be decided politically.

04:55Indeed. And you did mention Syria and this apparent consideration by Georgia Maloney

05:01to bring Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian leader, back in from the cold. This in the context,

05:07obviously, of the war in Lebanon, hundreds of thousands of people displaced there. Look,

05:13that is quite different, isn't it? Syria to somewhere like Albania. Do you really think

05:18that other European leaders are willing to consider Syria as a country where actually

05:24they think it's safe to send people?

05:28Well, so the Austrian chancellor was considering Syria safe as well in declaration ahead of

05:36today's summit. He was also mentioning that we should have more refugees being sent back

05:41to Afghanistan. And we have seen that in Germany, Denmark as well has sent back people to

05:48Afghanistan. Of course, you know, if you're a woman in Afghanistan, is it really a safe

05:53country? There is a lot of pushback. There is a lot of effort to send people back. So I

06:01don't think it will. I mean, you know, European summits happen every few months. I don't

06:06think that Syria will be considered safe today. But the fact that it is already put on the

06:11agenda for today shows that this is a direction of travel. And of course, the war, the

06:17escalation of the war in Lebanon is going to make sure that this actually stays on the

06:21agenda. And in terms particularly of what has been agreed, which is that deal between Italy

06:28and Albania, I mean, NGOs have been very critical of that. They've said, look, it's

06:32expensive, and it's probably not going to work. They say they, you know, these NGOs

06:38arguing that people will still try to come to Europe, but indeed, they may use more

06:43dangerous routes to do so. Do you think that that is true? Or could this really be a

06:48deterrent for people?

06:50So what we've seen with the Rwanda case is that it was going to cost a lot of money to

06:57the UK. And it has cost a lot of money because most of that money cannot be gained back

07:02from Rwanda, even if the scheme is not going to go ahead. But we did, we didn't see a

07:07drop in crossing of the Channel. But we did see some more movement across the Irish

07:12border for people fleeing the UK through Northern Ireland to get refuge in Ireland and

07:17to not risk being sent to Rwanda. So you will have, you know, refugees will react, but

07:22they won't react necessarily in the way that European politicians want, which is they

07:28won't come to Europe. No, they will still come to Europe. But they perhaps will try

07:32to enter through Greece, instead of through Italy, for example, which could also be

07:37extremely dangerous for them.

07:40And look, it's not just Italy that is imposing now these kinds of measures or at least

07:46talking about it. We've seen Germany reinstate border controls, the Dutch government talking

07:51about Uganda as a country where they may be interested in outsourcing migration services.

07:58Look, overall, why do you think we are seeing such a rightward shift in Europe on the

08:05question of migration? Is it simply because, look, that's what voters want?

08:09It's an excellent question. I'm not sure I have a full answer for that. I do think

08:14there's something around that is, it is part of what voters want, but voters want much

08:22just voters want a better life. And in many ways, like, you know, our current governments

08:27are struggling to find ways of delivering this. So they focus on some things that will,

08:34you know, will grab headlines and they'll have the impression they're doing something.

08:38But what is really worrying is if we look back at the beginning, like the last height

08:42of the refugee crisis, you know, 2015, where we had proper European leadership, we had

08:47Angela Merkel open borders, say, you know, we'll manage this, we will be able to help

08:53and cope with refugees. This was, you know, the EU as the biggest economic bloc in the

08:59world saying, of course, we can actually handle refugees, we can integrate them, we can make

09:04them a good, like, you know, part of our society. And today, what we have is Europe is still

09:10very rich, but it is decided to, you know, what human rights matter for our people, but

09:16we can actually treat refugees in inhumane ways. And the fact that this is now spreading

09:22is really worrying for Europe in terms of any kind of thought leadership in the world,

09:26any kind of thought leadership in the world, because we are showing that we actually don't

09:30really care about the rest of the world. And just a final question for you, as you suggest,

09:35what we're seeing today at a European level is such a stark shift from what we saw back

09:40in 2015, when Angela Merkel was running Germany and the country took in over 1 million refugees.

09:47Do you think what we are witnessing today is effectively a backlash to 2015?

09:54I think in a way we are seeing exactly the same as 2015, which is divided continent. It's just,

10:00it's not the same, the same countries are not necessarily on the same side. So Sweden and

10:04Germany then were the most ambitious and generous, and they're definitely not now.

10:11But yeah, no, it is, it is a strong backlash. I think it is not necessarily so much the fact

10:16that the backlash happens also in countries like France, that took a very small share of refugees

10:23so that it is, the backlash is not necessarily rational, it's not linked to the number of

10:27refugees. It is linked to general dissatisfaction with how our democracy is working, and or the

10:34economic health of Europe. Vivienne Gravy talking to us there. Great to speak to you. Thanks very

10:39much.

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