Giorgia Meloni in Paris: Talks between Italian PM and Macron on migration, defense

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00:00 Well, for more, I'm joined on the set by our Europe editor, Armin Georgian.

00:03 Hello to you, Armin.

00:04 We saw in that report a series of spats between Macron and Maloney.

00:08 Is this sort of like hopefully them pushing a reset button?

00:11 That that seems to be the idea.

00:14 I mean, this treaty that they're trying to revive,

00:16 it was mentioned briefly in that report.

00:18 It's called the Kirinale Treaty, which was signed in 2021.

00:22 And that was actually the fruit of three years of preparation

00:26 between the French and Italian governments

00:28 aimed at a much more dense kind of structure to the whole Italian

00:32 French relationship, bringing things up to a kind of not exactly

00:37 the same level of alliance that France has with Germany,

00:40 but something a little bit closer to that.

00:43 But of course, that was all a different period in history

00:46 when President Macron had close relationships with Italian leaders.

00:52 That hasn't been the case since Giorgio Maloney came to power.

00:56 And it's not just a question of substance, but very much of of tone as well.

01:02 A perception that's been quite persistent in Rome

01:05 that France essentially has has seen Italy as a sort of junior partner,

01:10 that when it comes to doing the really big, important things in Europe,

01:13 France will do those things with Germany and simply pay lip service

01:18 to Italy being an important partner.

01:20 I think that's been a pretty particularly prevalent perception

01:25 in the last few months in Rome.

01:28 Just this morning, we heard the French government spokesperson

01:31 saying on French on a French television channel

01:34 that Italy is our European brother.

01:37 And yet, as we saw in that report only six weeks ago,

01:40 France's interior minister was saying that the Italian leader

01:44 was incapable of resolving migration problems.

01:47 So not a lot of brotherly love, particularly in the last few weeks.

01:51 It has to be said.

01:52 Yeah. And is migration still the key sticking point?

01:55 Well, we have to put that in a slightly bigger context.

01:57 So this this migration deal that was just touched on briefly in that report,

02:02 Italy did get some concessions from its EU partners in early June

02:08 when that breakthrough, as European ministers called it, was announced.

02:13 There was stricter processing of asylum seekers at EU borders

02:17 that should, in theory, help Italy also loosening the definition

02:21 of what kind of what countries asylum seekers could be, quote, sent back to.

02:27 That's also aimed at relieving this migration pressure on Italy.

02:31 But the problem is, firstly, that migration deal

02:35 has not been finally approved.

02:37 That was just one stage in the process.

02:39 There still have to be talks between the EU member states

02:42 and the European Parliament.

02:44 So it's a very long haul.

02:45 And in the meantime, the proof of the pudding

02:48 is obviously going to be in the eating this summer.

02:50 What will solidarity look like, if anything, between EU member states,

02:54 as in the summer traditionally is when migrant crossings

02:58 across the Mediterranean increase.

03:01 So there's definitely a potential world for more tensions between France

03:06 and Germany, sorry, between France and Italy as to who should take

03:10 responsibility for this ship or that ship.

03:13 So it's one thing to have a deal on paper.

03:16 Another thing is how countries actually behave

03:20 when it comes to this key question of solidarity that Italy wants

03:23 from France and other EU partners.

03:26 All right, Armin, thank you very much.

03:27 Armin Georgian, France 24's Europe editor.

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