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00:00The Joe Rogan experience.
00:03The community of people that are obsessed with the JFK assassination is pretty thorough.
00:06It's amazing.
00:07There are a lot of nutcases too out there, but those serious people are really good.
00:11And they're the ones that kept this case alive.
00:13Well, it's a thing that a conspiracy theorist really looks to.
00:16I don't use that word.
00:16I think truth seeker is much more...
00:18Okay, well, forget about that word.
00:20But someone who's interested in uncovering the truth about this assassination,
00:25the type of person that has that mindset that's interested in uncovering the truth
00:29about any historical event.
00:30Yes, that's correct.
00:30This is one of the best ones.
00:32That's what a historian does.
00:34Yes.
00:34There's significant evidence, and there's significant evidence that there is a conspiracy.
00:39Significant evidence.
00:40Significance.
00:40I mean...
00:40I would say from the beginning there was...
00:42Yes.
00:43Well, you have a shot from the rear and a shot from the front.
00:45Yes.
00:45Well, I was going to get into that.
00:46So when you detail so brilliantly in this documentary all of the people that were involved
00:53in manipulating evidence, whether it's autopsy photos, whether it's the evidence about the
01:01actual shots, where they were fired from, the impact, like where the exit wounds was,
01:06all these various people that were involved, how many people knew what had actually happened?
01:13Because it seems like there was a concentration of people that was not small.
01:19And one of the things that people who like to use the pejorative term conspiracy theorists,
01:27they always want to point to people can't keep a secret.
01:29Well, the fuck they can't?
01:31They had to.
01:32It's a giant maze.
01:33It's so confusing.
01:34Yes.
01:35That no one would be believed if they could.
01:37Right.
01:37There's one part...
01:38Think of it as departments of this.
01:41Departments of this.
01:42Somebody pops up and says, I know this.
01:45So he disappears in the maze.
01:46It's another piece of information.
01:48Yeah.
01:48There's been no attempt by government to follow up on this at all.
01:51They dismissed...
01:53They had the HSCA in 1978, right?
01:56That came about because of pressure.
01:58And a lot of that was classified still and disappeared for a while.
02:01We got it out.
02:03All that stuff.
02:04They decided that there was a probable conspiracy based on the acoustic evidence of the motorcycles.
02:11But we don't want to go into that because that's a whole other story.
02:14Acoustic evidence from sound from the recording?
02:16In the front.
02:16Yes.
02:16Yes.
02:17Yeah.
02:17Well...
02:18The shots.
02:18The shots.
02:19The physical evidence of the impact on the body is way more important and way more obvious.
02:27First of all, the establishment of the magic bullet was one of the most preposterous things that the United States public has ever accepted.
02:34And I think we did a great service by driving a stake through that heart of that vampire because it's been around forever.
02:41Well, you detailed in so many different ways, too.
02:43You detailed all the various ways that they had tried to establish it.
02:46Once they found the wound in the back, they tried to establish...
02:50Don't confuse it.
02:51First of all, the magic bullet.
02:52There's no chain of custody on it.
02:53Right.
02:53The FBI lied and we proved it in the film.
02:56Yes, you did.
02:56Because the times don't match.
02:58Right.
02:58And when it was given...
02:59So the FBI down and out lied.
03:01Now, Hoover, of course, one had to believe, wanted to believe that Oswald did it alone.
03:09He had to because they put themselves in a straitjacket.
03:12They said three shots.
03:13There were not three shots.
03:14It was probably four or five shots.
03:16Three shots.
03:17One assassin who...
03:18Why?
03:19What's his motive?
03:20He was a perfectly reasonable young man.
03:22He was in the corridor being yelled at and he said, I need a lawyer.
03:26I'm a patsy.
03:27Yes.
03:27Yes.
03:27The guy didn't behave like he was proud of what he had done, which is what they said.
03:32He was a communist, an assassin.
03:34They had this background of visiting Russia.
03:38Of course, we found out, we found out, the community found out that it wasn't everything
03:43what didn't meet the eye.
03:44It was a whole other story going on.
03:46What about that Oswald had been associated with the CIA?
03:50Yes.
03:50Not that he'd been an agent, but he'd been watched by the CIA for four years.
03:54That we know without a doubt now because of what we declassified.
03:59Angleton, James Angleton, the counter-terrorist chief, had a file on Oswald since before Russia.
04:05They knew him.
04:07They knew what he was doing up until the week.
04:09Well, apparently, they disappeared his flash warning about a week before the assassination,
04:14which means to say, you don't need to check Oswald if you're a secret service.
04:18You see him somewhere on a parade route.
04:21You'd have to clear out those type of people.
04:23They get, the secret service is very aware of people who have backgrounds who could be dangerous.
04:29They took that off, the signal on Oswald.
04:32The other thing is that Oswald was working both sides.
04:35Clearly, that he was working with the pro-Castro and the anti-Cuban movement.
04:38But the CIA set up both.
04:40Yes, exactly.
04:40The CIA set up the pro and the cut.
04:42Right.
04:42So, it's very clear that they were well aware of him.
04:47Dip him in the Cuban poison.
04:49Sheep dip him.
04:50Make him look like a commie who loves Castro.
04:53That was the intention, I believe.
04:54I believe that the CIA was so upset about these two near invasions of Cuba that this was a chance by killing Kennedy to get the United States to move against Castro.
05:06And this is what Johnson, this is where Johnson is not, you can't blame Johnson because he felt that there was his pressure right away.
05:13And he said to the Warren Commission guys, he said, look, there's a lot of pressure to point the finger at Russia and Cuba.
05:23We don't want to do that because we're going to have a nuclear war if we do that.
05:25Like 40 million people are going to be dying.
05:27That's what he told Warren.
05:28Warren went white.
05:30You know, in those days, it was very serious.
05:3240 million people, my God.
05:33He had all the weight of the country on his shoulders.
05:36And that's why he accepted this lousy job as the chief commissioner.
05:41So, Johnson used that story.
05:42But Johnson believed it.
05:44I think he believed it.
05:45I think he believed there was – I think he believed in some way.
05:49I'm not sure.
05:50He – let me put something.
05:52This is very important.
05:52Marvin Watson was his aide to Johnson.
05:56In 1970 – in 19 – church committee, he testified.
06:03He testified that Johnson, after he read the IG report that we talked about earlier, which said that – which said that there were no assassinations.
06:13President Kennedy or Robert had never approved, authorized any presidential – any assassination attempt on Castro, right?
06:20He read that report and he told Watson, according to Watson, he said, I now believe it's – the CIA was probably involved in the assassination.
06:30That's what he said.
06:31Wow.
06:32In 67 when he read the report.
06:35Wow.
06:35It comes out in the – at the church committee, which is classified, disappears for some reason.
06:39We find it.
06:40We find it again because of this ARB.
06:45So, he was probably left in the dark as well.
06:48I do believe so.
06:49I think he's definitely involved in the cover-up because he doesn't want to have a war.
06:54Right.
06:55But he changes the whole policy of Kennedy right away.
06:58We have that declassified call between him and Robert Ragnamore.
07:02What does Johnson say in that call?
07:03Do you remember?
07:04It's in the film.
07:04He says, you know, I was never in agreement with you and the president about withdrawing from Vietnam.
07:11I thought you were wrong.
07:13He says that proudly.
07:14Yeah.
07:14Because he's going in.
07:15Right.
07:16Why he wants to go into Vietnam and not Cuba is another issue.
07:21But think about that.
07:22Just think about the implications of that.
07:24Johnson is moving towards war in Vietnam.
07:27And how deep in that he, I mean, he was looking to do something to weaken the grip of the CIA.
07:33Not just get rid of those three guys, but he also wanted to diminish the CIA's influence and power.
07:37Yeah, but that wasn't his only thought.
07:39He had a hundred things to deal with.
07:40Right.
07:40That's the problem, right?
07:41Around the world.
07:41And he wasn't newly in office.
07:44Well, yeah, by 60.
07:47He said statements about the generals.
07:49He said, you know, they're not worth a bucket of piss or whatever it was.
07:53You know, they're not.
07:54Generals think they know everything.
07:56They always want to go to war.
07:57They want the parades, but they don't want the casualties.
08:01They don't want the result.
08:03And that's true for the United States.
08:05We go to war with a lot of hoopla.
08:08And we come out and we leave our people.
08:11We leave our people who go over there mostly in very difficult states.
08:15You know, either suicide or in veterans' hospitals with limbs blown off.
08:19It's not fun, war.
08:21And we treat it like I think the United States has never experienced a war.
08:24I think that's a problem.
08:26On our shores.
08:26Yeah.
08:27Yeah.
08:27And when we do, we're shocked.
08:29So we have a distorted perception of what war is.
08:31I think the Russians are much more realistic because every Russian is related to somebody who was killed in World War II.
08:37Right.
08:37Well, it's in their hearts.
08:38It's seared in.
08:41And, you know, I can't speak for the Chinese, but they lost like a couple of million men in Korea.
08:46You know, so there must have been a lot of family pain there.
08:50Have you ever tried to calculate how many people were involved in the cover-up of the assassination?
08:56Because, you know, when you break down all the various people that you document, everyone from Arlen Specter to everyone that's on the Warren Commission's report,
09:08it's very clear that those folks had to know that what they were doing was bullshit.
09:13From what you said about the FBI chain of custody for the magic bullet to the alteration of the autopsy photos and the difference between the-
09:22And the autopsy itself.
09:23Yes, the autopsy itself.
09:24The difference between the Dallas autopsy and the way they looked at it at Bethesda, Maryland.
09:29There wasn't an autopsy in Dallas.
09:31It was just a-
09:31Well, the examination of the body.
09:33It was very quick, the tracheotomy.
09:35Yeah.
09:36The tracheotomy and also the description of the exit wound in his head.
09:43Well, yeah, that comes out later.
09:45Yeah.
09:45Although some people didn't see it.
09:47But 40 people, what the ARB did, thank God, was collect all the people who saw the rear exit wound.
09:53And it was huge.
09:54We showed in the film, we showed the 40 people who saw it.
09:57What's really crazy you document in the film was the fact that it wasn't really his brain.
10:04Yeah, I was going to go to that piece.
10:05Yeah, please.
10:06The brain that they had used as a piece of evidence that this was Kennedy's brain had clearly been in formaldehyde for at least two weeks.
10:13Yeah.
10:14Well, I'm so glad our documentary, and this is James D. Eugenio who wrote it.
10:19You know, he's really the guy who reads everything, remembers everything through all these years.
10:23And there's a million documents.
10:25We drove a stake through the magic bullet.
10:28That's clear.
10:29There's no chain of custody.
10:30The FBI lied.
10:32They also, in the matter of the autopsy, the brain is intact.
10:38And it was photographed as such.
10:40It was clean.
10:42The whole area was still there.
10:43Whereas it's impossible because the brain was seen.
10:47You see it spraying out in the car when there's a Pruder film.
10:52You see it.
10:53The nurses, Audrey Bell, is talking about it's, I can't remember the medical term, whatever it's called.
11:01It's spilling out on the floor of Parkland.
11:04Yeah.
11:04And when they weigh the brain, as they do it in an autopsy, it comes out normal.
11:09Well, not just normal, but extra large, right?
11:11A little bit, yeah.
11:12Larger than average.
11:13Like it was.
11:14It's impossible.
11:15And what's more important is, and this drives a stake again through the heart of it.
11:19The photographer of the autopsy, John Stringer, the autopsy photographer, he's a straight guy.
11:25He's, you know, pro-war and commission, all that stuff.
11:28They bring him back.
11:29The ARB brings him back.
11:31And they show him the photos that we now have of the, that are in the National Archives.
11:37And he says, I never photographed that.
11:39Right.
11:40He took an up view of the brain.
11:42He never took a basilar view from below.
11:45I never photographed that.
11:47And that's very important.
11:48There's also some evidence that they had drawn hair in to cover up the exit wound.
11:53Yes.
11:55I don't know about the evidence, but definitely the photograph shows that the hair had been pulled in.
12:00The shot is bizarre.
12:01It's bizarre shots.
12:03So the autopsy is off.
12:05The brain is off.
12:06Photos are off.
12:08Then you go, you know, the garrison trial revealed one of the autopsies, Peter Fink, saying that they were not in charge of the autopsy.
12:16The military was.
12:17Right.
12:17He couldn't, they wouldn't let him put his finger in the back hole.
12:20Right.
12:21They told them what to do.
12:22And they were very bullying.
12:23In fact, there was, can you imagine having, doing an autopsy on the president and having 20 or 30 people looking at you from a gallery?
12:30And they were telling him what he was able to do and not able to do.
12:34So the autopsy was being directed.
12:36Yeah.
12:36I showed that in the movie.
12:37Don't touch that.
12:38Right.
12:39Don't do that.
12:40Which is, so you have to think that.
12:42Plus they have the best autopsy people in the world, civilian, all around Washington.
12:47Why wouldn't they call him in?
12:49No.
12:49Right.
12:50There's no desire.
12:50So they had a predetermined ending that they wanted to achieve or a result that they wanted
12:57to achieve.
12:57Three bullets, three bullets, one assassin.
13:00But this is what's crazy.
13:01It's like, you've got to think, okay, when then you have at least those 30 people that are
13:05in the audience watching that autopsy, I mean, what do they know?
13:11I don't know that.
13:12But isn't that crazy?
13:13If all 30 of them know that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't act alone.
13:17No, we don't know that.
13:18We don't know.
13:18Right.
13:19I mean, we don't know some of them.
13:20But there's obviously a directive.
13:23Well, there again, we don't know.
13:25I shouldn't say obviously a directive, but they're doing something to influence the way this autopsy is being done.
13:32At least some of the people are giving direction, giving instruction, and you've got to wonder why would they do that?
13:38Like what motivation would they have unless they knew that there was a predetermined result that they need to achieve?
13:44You have, of course, the Johnson fear that it would become a hysteria, Russia or Cuba being accused of killing him,
13:52and it would be a situation that they could no longer control.
13:55That's a legitimate excuse to cover up.
13:57You know, one interesting story.
14:01It's in the four-hour version, not in this two-hour version.
14:03That's coming out in the end of February.
14:06We show a moment in the autopsy where one of the technicians, the doctor looks up.
14:12He says, there's cigar smoke blurring this thing.
14:15It was just cigar smoke smells, covers up the air and stuff.
14:19You don't smoke a cigar in an autopsy.
14:21They're in an autopsy.
14:22Crazy.
14:22He says, who's doing that?
14:24Find out.
14:25Tell him to put it out.
14:25He goes over to the gallery, and guess who's smoking the fucking cigar?
14:29Who?
14:30General Curtis LeMay, the figure from Strangelove that Kubrick was satirizing.
14:35That's hilarious.
14:36And he says, can you put it out?
14:37You know?
14:38LeMay simply looks at him, blows smoke in his face.
14:43And the guy wrote, he was a technician.
14:45He just wanted, he's telling the truth, walks back, couldn't get him to put the cigar out.
14:50Wow.
14:51That's pretty interesting.
14:55We're talking.
14:57Some sort of dies.
15:02And I asked him to put it out.
15:04We're talking about some jokes.
15:06You know?
15:07We're talking about what the slightest change should be.
15:08We're standing back and forth.
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