Branham Lied — and His Top Ministers Knew It - Revival History - Charles Paisley - Episode 348 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Charles unravel the shocking truth behind the internal warfare that tore the Message movement apart—from Perry Green’s manipulative rise to power to the brutal copyright wars that fractured William Branham’s empire.  From secretive book burnings and backroom lawsuits to flip-flopping prophecies and self-destructing cult narratives, this episode exposes the deception that even Branham’s inner circle admitted—but only at the end. Learn how Perry Green helped invent the return ministry doctrine, only to later deny it. Discover why leaders started calling each other “bread thieves,” and why the message cult turned on its own.  This is not just a story about church politics—it’s a case study in how false prophecies, corrupted power, and spiritual manipulation built a movement on lies… and then tore it down from within.  00:00 Introduction 01:03 How Perry Green Reshaped the Message 05:15 The Evolving Prophecy of a Female President 08:35 Acts of the Prophet and Doctrinal Revisions 12:33 The Shark Prophecy and Editorial Gaslighting 15:00 Biblical Literalism vs. a Fluid Message 18:06 The Cloud Vision and Perry Green’s Clarifications 21:05 Exposing the 1933 Baptism Myth 24:23 Ministers Privately Admitting the Message Was False 27:04 The Business of Message Literature 30:44 The Roots of the Copyright Wars 34:40 Central Institutions vs. Tucson Tabernacle 37:31 Perry Green Labeled a Bread Thief 40:07 Flip-Flopping on the Return Ministry 45:00 Tent Revival and the Message’s Apocalyptic Theater 48:02 Realignment Away from the Tape Churches 50:06 Final Break: Joseph Branham’s Rise and “Here I Stand”  📘 Books Mentioned: – Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  – Come Out of Her My People Vol II https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DNFN2XYR  🎧 Listen on Spotify, Google & Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast  🔗 Support & Subscribe: – Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham – YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Website: https://william-branham.org – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg – TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr

Transcript

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend,

00:00:47Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her My People.

00:00:54Charles, it's good to be back and to talk all things Acts of the Prophet.

00:00:58But we've been diving into Perry Green and all things that he has transformed in the

00:01:06message, and I think we'll go a little bit deeper with that today.

00:01:10The message is what it is because of people like Perry Green who were kind of molding it

00:01:15and shaping it in the way that they saw fit, which ironically for Perry was the more profitable

00:01:21way. I look at some of the things that we'll get into where he's just molding and shaping

00:01:28the quote-unquote prophet and the things that were quote-unquote prophecy, and it's just

00:01:35unbelievable. William Branham went around casually predicting things. I can predict that the Chiefs

00:01:43are going to win a football game, and if they win, not a single person is going to say John

00:01:49is a prophet. They're going to say, well, John predicted the football game, the outcome, and look,

00:01:55John was right, luckily, right? William Branham went around and he just kind of did this, and

00:01:59whenever somebody latched on to something that happened, and he's randomly spitting out all

00:02:05of these different things, people would say, well, that was a prophecy. And then if it failed,

00:02:10well, it wasn't a prophecy. It was a, quote, personal prediction. And as we'll get into it

00:02:16today, Perry Green used that to his advantage to help shape all of this into what the message

00:02:23became whenever I grew up in it. And I was a little surprised to learn that my version of the

00:02:29message was not the same as my parents' version, and my parents' version was not the same as my

00:02:35grandparents'. And before my grandparents came in, it was a totally different message altogether.

00:02:40There were different stage personas that came into play. And the interesting part of all of this

00:02:47is it appears that the men who were working with Branham shaped the message to what it became far

00:02:54more than Branham himself ever did. It's fascinating, isn't it, John? Now, we have been working our way

00:03:00through the major sects of the message for the past few episodes. This is the first sect of the message

00:03:06where we did three episodes. We've just been doing two episodes per sect up here. Not that we

00:03:11couldn't. I mean, we could do lots of episodes on everyone. But this one is, there's such a crossover

00:03:16here between this sect of the message and the main sect. And so we, I think three episodes has been

00:03:22fitting here. Now, Perry Green's sect of the message, eventually, you know, when I look at his sect of

00:03:29the message, I think of him as one of the key leaders of a number in a sect that broke away from the

00:03:34main sect over the copyright wars. Yeah, and we're kind of moving towards talking about how that happened

00:03:39today and some of the backstory. And you're right, Perry Green was just this incredibly

00:03:45interesting figure in all of this. And before we get started today too, John, one thing, we've been

00:03:52getting terrific feedback from all the people in the message community, just helping out with all

00:03:57these series. And so I especially want to say to thanks to all the people who've reached out with all

00:04:01their feedback, you know, one way or the other to help us be able to put the pieces together.

00:04:05Because, you know, message history is so covered up by everybody, right? There's all these different

00:04:13twists and turns, and some people have different versions than other people. And so, you know,

00:04:18putting our history together really has always been a collaborative effort of working with different

00:04:22people, you know. You know, we reach out to some people and ask them, you know, hey, this is what

00:04:27our preachers always told us. Is this true? You know, and then they're saying, no, that's not

00:04:31quite true. They were lying about us. And then they say, and this is what they told us about you.

00:04:36Is this quite true? And no, that's not quite true either. Oh, apparently all our leaders in the

00:04:40message were liars, you know. But, you know, there's the official narrative, you know, and then

00:04:46there is the reality of what actually happens, right? And so a lot of times we have, we kind of have

00:04:52both, right? And trying to weed through what is true versus what was spun is sometimes a little

00:04:58bit of a challenge with us. And so, you know, I've tried, especially in my book, to footnote back to

00:05:04everybody, you know, where things came from, the different sources for information and stuff. So

00:05:09anyways, just to be as helpful as possible. And the same with this, with Peregrine, where, you know,

00:05:13we're trying to stick with the stuff that we definitely can document, we're definitely sure,

00:05:17you know, happened. You know, that was one of the funniest things to hit me early on. I want to say

00:05:23it was maybe within the first few weeks, possibly the first month or two. I started noticing that I

00:05:31was publishing information that you could not question the information. There are things that

00:05:37William Branham said and did that were clearly false. And one of the ones that I brought up to my

00:05:43grandfather is, William Branham predicted the female president for years and years, that there

00:05:48would become a female president. And he was very, very specific about it. There was a female president.

00:05:55And then I stumbled onto, because we had the collection of recordings, I stumbled onto William

00:06:01Branham changing that to, maybe it's a vice president, maybe it's the Catholic Church. And then there's this

00:06:08one statement that hits you like a brick wall. He changed the year from 1933 for his alleged seven

00:06:17prophecies of 1933. He, after having told all of his congregations, I'm saying that plural because he

00:06:25was speaking to multiple, that it was the year 1933 without question. And I had this paper and just like

00:06:32Joseph Smith, I lost it and you people can't see it. But there was a paper written down with all the

00:06:38prophecies and you'll never see this thing buried in the cornerstone of my building. So you can't

00:06:43prove whether I said it or not. And then all of a sudden out of the blue, he holds up a paper and

00:06:48says, I want to read something to you. It says right here, 1932. And oh, by the way, Leo Mercer and my

00:06:56campaign managers, whatever he called the boys, he said, they're going to revise and update my

00:07:03prophecies. But let me read this paper that I've told you was buried under my cornerstone.

00:07:08That says 1932, as I was on my way, I was falling into a vision. And then in the course of reading

00:07:17this, he says that it might be the Catholic church after having prophesied this thing forever as a

00:07:24female president. And then he goes on to say, now, look, we've had all of these things fulfilled. So we

00:07:32know the end is right here now because we see President John F. Kennedy, who has risen into

00:07:40power and he's a Catholic. And therefore the Catholic church is going to come out of the

00:07:44United States and take over the world and doom, gloom, be scared. You're going to, if you don't

00:07:50come into this message, you're going to die. That's literally what he's doing. And I went to my

00:07:56grandfather. I was like, wait a minute. It can't be both. You can't for years say that God told you it

00:08:01was a female president and then flip it on its head up to the Catholic church. That doesn't work.

00:08:07But that's the way things are in the message. There is no static prophecies. They're fluid.

00:08:15And they change with time. They change with the events. And what happens is you end up,

00:08:20instead of a message, which is what they like to tout, you have a educated guess or opinion or

00:08:28something that just fits the narrative. I think educated guess is being generous, John.

00:08:36So, yeah. And it changes. It changes. It changes. It changes. And this kind of starts to lead us

00:08:45into talking about some of this literature. Okay. So here are three different editions of the Acts of

00:08:52the Prophet. Okay. This is Perry Green's, probably the book he's most well known for. And what you

00:09:00have with Perry Green is he was doing message mission work. He was one of the very important

00:09:07message missionaries, really, after William Branham died. And a lot of the spread of the message in

00:09:12Latin America, especially among Hispanic, Spanish-speaking people, a lot of that was sponsored and

00:09:18spearheaded by Perry Green and the Tucson Tabernacle. And quite a number of Hispanic message churches

00:09:25were planted through those efforts, not just in the United States, but also, you know, throughout

00:09:29Latin America. Besides that, he also did partner with Ewald Frank and toured in Europe and through

00:09:38his mission networks. He partnered with Sidney Jackson and toured with him through his missionary

00:09:42networks in Africa and Europe and Southeast Asia. He traveled to New Zealand and Australian,

00:09:47you know, partnered with groups over there. So Perry Green was going all over the place and

00:09:51spreading the message. And he developed this missionary sermon. And there's recordings of

00:09:59this sermon out there available. Actually, it's one of those sermons that I reference quite a bit in

00:10:03my book, you know, to kind of source, you know, different things that he said. But the sermon is,

00:10:10the missionary story is basically him recounting the stories of William Branham's life. And then it leads up

00:10:17to the point that he really meets William Branham as far as becoming a message believer and joining

00:10:23the message in 1964. And then he talks a lot about, you know, just how very important Perry Green was to

00:10:30the prophet in 1964 and 1965. And all of these special things that he has supposed special inside

00:10:37knowledge of, you know, and all the prophet. And then the prophet dies and, and, you know, and then

00:10:43that's more or less how the book ends. So it's basically his, his telling of the legends of the

00:10:49message, and then a special deep focus on the year and three quarters or so that he spent,

00:10:56um, basically elbowing his way into the inner circle. So that is the sum of his book. And, and so

00:11:05there's the very first version of it, John was actually, um, printed up by people out of Leo

00:11:14Mercer's commune in Prescott, Arizona. They attended a service where he, Perry Green gave this missionary

00:11:20sermon. Some of them, um, in longhand wrote down the sermon as he preached it. And they came back to

00:11:27the trailer park, um, commune and were able to publish it from there. Now at that commune,

00:11:34we're going to talk more about this when we talk about the main sect and voice of God and so forth.

00:11:38But back then the commune was the source for message tapes production, right? That is, that was the

00:11:46center of message tape production back then. And it was also really the center for a lot of message

00:11:51literature publication back in those days too, right? When William Brenham died, because they,

00:11:55the franchise for all that, they, they were all working in that franchise that printed all that

00:11:59stuff. So they had the duplicating equipment, they had the printing equipment and stuff to do that.

00:12:04And so they produced the first edition of the Acts of the Prophet. Now this is not the first edition,

00:12:10um, but they produced the first edition of it. And as they did, um, this is when Perry Green, I,

00:12:16I guess discovered how lucrative these things were. And he took over publication at the second

00:12:22edition and they started printing, printing these books. And what is so interesting about this,

00:12:29John, is this is an easy way to track how the story changed over the years. Because Perry Green

00:12:37revised the book whenever he changed the story, okay? And this is, so this is why this is very useful

00:12:43to know. And, and I'm going to give just one example of this, John. I don't know if you want to refer to

00:12:47any others, but if you go back to the very earliest editions of this book, um, they will say

00:12:54in, in, in that when Billy Paul and William Branham were in front of the maze company in, I think,

00:13:01downtown Los Angeles, William Branham said to him in a prophecy that you won't be an old man, Billy,

00:13:09before the sharks are swimming where you were standing. It's a prophecy in all of these books.

00:13:14But then you go to the very last edition and they change it. It becomes William Branham made a

00:13:20personal prediction. Billy Paul, you will not be an old man before the sharks are swimming where

00:13:26they're standing. So they, they, in the, and here's the thing, they're the one who invented this

00:13:30prophecy too, John. Like, this was not on tape anywhere. So Perry Green, Billy Paul invented that

00:13:35prophecy before, uh, you know, in the, in the late 60s and stuff as, as they were, you know,

00:13:42doing this missionary pitch, making these sermons. And then as Billy Paul turned into an old man and

00:13:49it all turned out to be a lie, they revised the books and the story that they had been telling

00:13:53everybody for decades. No, that wasn't a prophecy. No, you guys misunderstood us. No, no, no, no, no,

00:13:58no. That was just a personal prediction. And that's how it is in the message. And people,

00:14:04they, and this is gaslighting, right? We never told you that was a prophecy. Yes, you did.

00:14:10And you're a dirty liar telling me that you didn't. And this is how they rewrite message

00:14:15history, right? And these books, these books are a terrific insight into how message history

00:14:21gets rewrote by the leaders and the people say, no, we always believed it that way. We

00:14:27always believed it that way. No, you did not. You changed, right? You lied in the beginning

00:14:33when you said it, you lied again when you changed it, and you lying again now saying that it never

00:14:39happened again, right? And so how can we trust liars? How can we trust people that are just

00:14:43dishonest through their teeth and have such a track record of being wrong? And anyways, that is what

00:14:48Perry Green did. And that is what is very obvious in these books. And it's quite a number of them,

00:14:53actually, quite a number of changes like that in these books over time.

00:14:57And I want to pause right here and stress the significance of this. So this is a cult which

00:15:03preaches and teaches Christian fundamentalism far beyond the extremes of other fundamentalist

00:15:10groups. The Bible is the inspired Word of God, and every single line that is written is pinned by God.

00:15:18And we can't take thought into whenever the Bible, whenever the authors of the Bible use a metaphor,

00:15:24for example. It's not a metaphor. We have to take that literally. And they back it up as the literal

00:15:30Word of God, penned by God in such a way that you can't read the genres and the types and the different

00:15:39the ways that normal Christians read the Bible. I'll just say it like that and sum it up. And that's

00:15:44another podcast for another day. But they're based this on this literalism in the way in which God had

00:15:53the supreme authority of the way in which the Bible was transmitted. God had control every step of the

00:16:00way, which most Christians believe this. God has the power to maintain His Word and keep it for the

00:16:07ages. But you'll notice in the comment feeds, whenever the same group of people with that same

00:16:13ideology try to defend William Branham, they say, but no, that man changed it. That man, even though

00:16:20the entire cult adopted it, whenever the man is written off and everything that he brought with it,

00:16:27they say, no, that man changed it. And we believed it for all these decades because this man led us

00:16:34astray. And what they've done is they've essentially created a different God than the one that they

00:16:41actually are proclaiming with the very fundamentalist view of the Bible. And it's a weaker God because

00:16:48He can't control the message. So God brought this message to the world, and the message kept changing

00:16:54and transforming and evolving. And some groups believe that the message that God sent from 1947

00:17:02to 1963 is fully invalid because the message that God gave William Branham after 1963 is the only true

00:17:10message of God. That's how weird this gets. So you have this group of people that can't keep a

00:17:15consistent message. And they fight with each other as to what is the valid message that God sent. God

00:17:22sent this confusion that He called the message. It's confusing and it's contradicting. And we're going

00:17:28to fight with each other to try to make sense of this confusing mess that God gave us. That is what

00:17:35the cult is doing.

00:17:36I know it's something else, isn't it, John? You know, another, maybe just a couple other things I'll

00:17:41point out real quick is one other really big change that we've, you know, we've mentioned in

00:17:46prior episodes is William Branham was supposedly standing, was out hunting on February 28th, 1963,

00:17:52in the desert, standing underneath the giant face of Jesus in the sky looking down on him, right?

00:17:57Which was the, is the cloud, the great message mystery cloud. Well, in the, in the earlier editions

00:18:03of this book, William Branham went hunting on February 28th, 1963, and was standing beneath the cloud

00:18:09when the face of Jesus appeared. Well, after, you know, all the evidence came out that, hey,

00:18:15William Branham made all that up, you know, it was pretty undeniable. They change it, okay? And in the

00:18:21later editions, William Branham goes out over a week later after the face of Jesus appeared and

00:18:28somehow has an experience with the remnant of the face of Jesus. I don't know, right? It stops,

00:18:34it really stops making sense after you realize he wasn't there on February 28th when the, when the

00:18:40cloud appeared. So they're, they're changing stuff, right? And, and in it, they actually are admitting

00:18:45if, if you, if we're honest with ourselves, John, if we're honest with the way that they change the

00:18:50things, they are admitting their awareness. Yes, we're aware William Branham lied to us. And now we're

00:18:56changing the story from what William Branham originally told us to our now understanding of

00:19:01the facts, right? And you can argue, yeah, William Branham probably was out hunting on March 7th,

00:19:07right? He probably was. But that means his original story is all a great big lie, right? You know, you

00:19:14can't have it both ways, right? You can't, you can't be, he was hunting underneath a cloud on February 28th

00:19:20and saw the face of Jesus. You can't have that be a wrong story and then put him out on the 7th. So the truth

00:19:26is, the way they change these things, they actually are admitting to us, there is serious,

00:19:33serious, serious errors. And, you know, later in his life, John, just like this is, and this is of

00:19:40all people, John, think of Perry Green doing this. Later in his life, Perry Green preached this series

00:19:45of sermons called the Clarification Series. And you know what that series of sermons was? It was him

00:19:51telling everything he knew was wrong with the message. That's what it was. And you know how many

00:19:56of these old-time preachers, John, even Perry Green did it towards the end of his life, John.

00:20:02They did a sermon series and they told all these things they knew was wrong with the message.

00:20:07And just like Lee Vale is saying, hey guys, I know this and I know that and I know the prophet was

00:20:12sleeping with homosexuals overnight, you know, just like he's saying all this sort of stuff,

00:20:17Perry Green does the same thing and they're doing it in their own way, right? They're doing it in

00:20:21their own way. Yes, we know this is a problem and we know that's a problem, but here's the way we

00:20:24need to twist and cover it up. But they all admit all the problem. And Perry Green admitted all that

00:20:30stuff. I think his statement was, if Brother Branham was out under that cloud on February 28th,

00:20:37when he was actually in Houston, Texas, that would be stranger than a cow sitting in a tree,

00:20:42you know, eating the sky. You know, he said something like that. Like he says, if Brother Branham's

00:20:47original story is true, that's the weirdest thing I ever heard because that's impossible.

00:20:51Perry Green said that sort of stuff, you know? And let me give you one other quote from Perry

00:20:55Green. And these are, I think, are so illustrative. This is from a 2002 testimony that Perry Green

00:21:01gave. This is on recording. He's talking about the 1933 baptism story here, John, down at the river.

00:21:07He said, I had the privilege to talk to some of those witnesses that were on the bank of the river

00:21:12that day. And he says, nobody heard the voice. Nobody heard the voice. Which is, if you remember,

00:21:22the same thing that Lee Vale said in his book, nobody heard the voice. It's the same thing I told

00:21:29you that every single witness known to the Jeffersonville message community said. Nobody

00:21:34heard the voice speak to William Branham on the river that day during the baptism. Everybody that was

00:21:40there, not a single witness heard a voice say, as John the Baptist was sent to forerun the first

00:21:47coming of Christ. So you too have been sent with a message to forerun the second coming.

00:21:53There is not a single witness that says that happened. It did not happen. Perry Green says it

00:22:01didn't. He, there's no witnesses. Lee Vale says there's no witnesses. I'm telling you every single

00:22:05person that I have known in the Jeffersonville message community who was there, who's not a lot

00:22:09of them, said it never happened. It never happened, John. It never happened. There is not a single

00:22:16witness to it. And, and they, they're admitting things like this to us if we'll listen with our

00:22:22ears. And, and even Perry Green, I mean, of all the people that tell us the truth about this,

00:22:28Perry Green even confessed the truth about this stuff at the end of his life, John.

00:22:32You know, that's another thing that hit me that was really odd because I would have gladly died

00:22:39to defend this message. Whenever I was in it, I was a cult member. I was brainwashed through and

00:22:44through. Yes, but I would have actually stood before a firing squad and never denied it until

00:22:50I found out that the whole thing was false because that's the way that you're brought up. You're brought

00:22:55up in this mindset of the martyrs. You want to become a martyr and it's a glory, glorious event.

00:23:01If you can die for the message, that's kind of the way it was taught to me. And then after leaving

00:23:08and after it became more widespread, the knowledge that many of the things William Branham said

00:23:15that were fundamental to the cult were completely false. You started watching these ministers who,

00:23:22it was kind of funny. It was like this game to see who could find the most fault with it and yet

00:23:29be a martyr in believing the things that didn't, that quote unquote, didn't have fault. And one,

00:23:36I won't mention the name, but there's one minister who is the most, he was labeled by social media as

00:23:42the most racist pastor in America. He was in the message cult. He gives this one sermon at one point

00:23:50where he's talking about, and I know all of the secrets. I've got a book in my study or notes,

00:23:55or I can't remember how he worded it, but he said basically he had this whole list of everything

00:24:00that William Branham taught that was wrong or false or contradicted, however he worded it.

00:24:06And his congregation are going, wow, the amazing power of this man who knows everything that William

00:24:12Branham said that is completely false. And yet he stands for this message, my brother. That's the

00:24:18kind of thing that's going on. As I am nearing the point of my exit, I was unaware of all of that.

00:24:26But then after I left, I started noticing one by one, these people, it became this battle to see who

00:24:31could find the most fault and yet believe the strongest, which is weird, man. If you have,

00:24:36like I said, if you have a message from God, a message that can't be false, then why are they

00:24:43trying to find fault with it and blaming us for finding fault with it when they themselves are

00:24:49doing the same thing and they're aware that there are significant problems? Some of them aren't

00:24:54trivial, Charles. Some of the things that they have found, if you take the aspect away, whatever

00:24:59the element is that they have suddenly declared to be false within the message, you take the whole

00:25:05message away. It cannot exist and sustain itself without whatever it is that they found that was

00:25:11false. I know what you mean. And when you think about things like them saying, nobody at the river

00:25:21heard the voice speak from heaven. Like when you think about that, you know, they're kind of glossing

00:25:28over it and they're trying to make an excuse for that when they say those things. Yeah, nobody heard

00:25:32the voice. No big deal. No big deal. But it is a big deal. It's a very big deal because William Branham

00:25:38said, in some versions of the story, there were 10,000 witnesses to the voice speaking

00:25:43from heaven, right? And when even the most senior top tier preachers in the message are telling

00:25:52us, no, William Branham made all that up and lied to you. Because that's what they said.

00:25:58When Lee Vale says there was no voice at the river, he's saying, William Branham lied to us

00:26:02about all of that. When Perry Green says there was no voice at the river, he's telling us,

00:26:07yeah, William Branham lied to us about all that. That is the implication. Although they won't make

00:26:12the next step and say, yeah, William Branham made all that up. That is exactly what they're implying.

00:26:18They just don't come out and say it. And all through Perry Green's, you know, that clarification

00:26:22series he did, and even whether it's Raymond Jackson, whether it's Lee Vale, whether it's all these other

00:26:27guys close, a lot of them towards the end of their lives told all of these things publicly,

00:26:34all these things publicly, if people were just listening. It was all there publicly explained

00:26:40that, yeah, there's some very serious problems with the message. Now, Perry Green, John, as we kind

00:26:47of come back to this literature, Perry Green early on got involved in producing transcripts of message

00:26:54literatures. He got into his own efforts of producing and selling his own tapes and producing

00:27:00and selling his own version of transcripts of Branham sermons. So he started doing that through

00:27:06the Tucson Tabernacle roughly in the same period of time that spoken word publications got started.

00:27:11And in fact, the people running spoken word publications at the very beginning were out there

00:27:16in Tucson attending the Tucson Tabernacle. And so in some ways, the early literature publication

00:27:23efforts of the message community was all merged together there in his church. But as you come up

00:27:29into, I want to say, I think I have the exact years in my book, but the early 80s, it might have been

00:27:3581, 82, 83, right in there. The operations of spoken word publications gets moved back here to

00:27:41Jeffersonville, John. So the central institution piece moves back here to Jeffersonville. Well,

00:27:49the original stuff that was going on is still there in Tucson. Well, Perry Green keeps all that going,

00:27:54right? Separate from spoken word. And so he's still printing his own transcripts. He's printing

00:28:00his own literature. They're producing their own tapes, right? And spreading their own stuff through

00:28:07his church as one of the major centers, right? If you want to kind of think about the main centers that

00:28:12are publishing his stuff, you have the central institutions, spoken word recordings, voice of God

00:28:17recordings, I'm sorry, spoken word publications, voice of God recordings, central institutions.

00:28:21You have the Tucson Tabernacle, and you have the Creffield Free Mission Center. Those are the

00:28:25centers where the bulk of the literature and the tapes are all being created as you're coming into the

00:28:331980s. So this starts to set up the copyright wars, John, because it's right in that same period of

00:28:41time that Perry Green's lawsuits are hitting, you know, he's getting into the lawsuits with the Evans

00:28:47family, for example. He's robbing some people in the Branham family even back then, John, you know?

00:28:53He's robbing the Branhams. He's robbing the Evans. He's stealing from people that he can't steal from

00:29:00it, you know, and keep having peaceful relations with the main sect. And they respond in the main

00:29:06sect to that by coming after Perry Green's recording and literature efforts. And they're

00:29:15saying, hey, you don't have permission, Perry Green, to make tapes. You don't have permission

00:29:19to make literature anymore, Perry Green. They're absolutely responding to him in some extent

00:29:26to his criminal stuff, right? And so as that's happening, they're using that as leverage on him

00:29:33to try and get him to stop. Because they know how profitable that is. They know how much money that

00:29:37is, right? And for them to take that from him is to deny him an important revenue stream.

00:29:43And so that is how the copyright wars actually start. Okay, it doesn't start, I know, I think the

00:29:48concept of a lot of people is they get started in the late 90s. No, it really started in the late 80s,

00:29:53as the central institutions are having their falling out with Perry Green. And they're just,

00:29:59he's the only one they're after. You'll find him talk about this even on tape some.

00:30:03Fred Sothman came to him, and they forced him to turn over all his master tapes, right? They

00:30:07basically threatened him. What, you know, the franchise that became Voice of God Recordings

00:30:12threatened Perry Green with lawsuits. Turn over all of your master tapes, cease producing your own

00:30:19tapes, or we're coming after you. And Perry Green actually complied in the 80s, John. He turned over

00:30:24his masters, he ceased his recording stuff. And they started to do similar stuff on the literature,

00:30:31too. And at first, Perry Green starts to comply with them, right? He starts to kind of work with

00:30:36them. But as things get sour and sour and sour with him and the main sect, Perry Green starts an

00:30:46effort to fight back. Like, they push him too far. And then he begins rallying people to his side and

00:30:54making the copyright thing into a big deal, which then really leads into the lawsuits, I think,

00:30:59that everyone are more familiar with in the copyright war stuff.

00:31:03Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

00:31:08modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

00:31:13movements into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham

00:31:19Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the

00:31:26compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

00:31:33with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and

00:31:40documentation on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the

00:31:46cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,

00:31:52be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:31:57On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:32:02And here's where it gets really interesting, Charles, because as I said, these men are starting

00:32:08to say that parts of the things that they have taught for years, for decades, weren't quite true,

00:32:14true. But yet we know the ones that are true. And we more firmly believe in the things that we know

00:32:22that William Branham, quote unquote, didn't lie about. So there's this weird claim to fame by

00:32:28showing martyrdom for believing stronger because of the faults in the message, which is pure irony.

00:32:35But if you piece together the timeline, like you're saying, you start to realize that there's more going

00:32:41on behind the scenes. So you've got this underlying rift between different factions of the message.

00:32:48You've got lawsuits flying to each other. You've got ministers who are going down one pathway of

00:32:55doctrine that conflicts with a different sect or different ministers version of the doctrine.

00:33:01Each one, as they're taking away things that William Branham said that they are aware and are teaching

00:33:07that are false, well, it shifts their doctrine in such a way that if person A takes away some element

00:33:14of what William Branham taught and takes them down this pathway, well, that pathway may be in direct

00:33:19conflict with the other guy who's admitted, well, William Branham lied about this other thing.

00:33:24So you've got this big turmoil and conflict growing in the message. And at the same time,

00:33:30the lawsuits are flying. You have people who are trying to have power plays to become the next

00:33:38supreme leader, because now you can actually take, this is where it gets really funny. You can actually

00:33:44take some of the things that William Branham said that were false and directly point those at another

00:33:51person because that person may have been proclaiming them for 50 years or longer. So the false things

00:33:57that William Branham taught and said and claim as supernatural experiences actually become a

00:34:04weapon in the message. And that weapon becomes very, very powerful as we get, as we'll get into

00:34:11further with Perry Green, because entire factions of the message were using that weapon against other

00:34:17factions. Yeah, it really is amazing, John, just how all this stuff played out over the years. So you

00:34:24have, just kind of recap the timeline, essentially in the early to mid-80s, Perry Green starts robbing

00:34:32and stealing from people who are important in the main sect of the message. They start to respond

00:34:39to him, turn on him a little bit, and it's right in that window that they start to confront him over,

00:34:44hey, you can't publish tapes no more, you can't print literature no more, you know. They start to

00:34:49confront him over that. And Billy Paul's relationship with Perry Green starts to deteriorate in those

00:34:56years. And Billy Paul slowly, especially as you come into the early and mid-90s, Billy Paul starts

00:35:02to elevate Joseph into the leadership role from that point. Billy Paul was the guy in charge up until

00:35:08certainly the early and mid-90s. Like, don't think otherwise, right? I mean, I know the main sect

00:35:14but probably pretends that's not true. Billy Paul was the guy in charge. But Joseph, by the mid-90s,

00:35:20Joseph starts rising into power, and by the time you get to the early 2000s, Billy Paul kind of moves

00:35:25into a retirement phase, and Joseph's running the whole thing. Well, as Joseph comes in and takes

00:35:33leadership and Voice of God recording in some of these efforts, Perry Green becomes the canary in the

00:35:39coal mine for the copyright wars, okay? Perry Green, at a certain point, he kind of dug in his heels and says,

00:35:48nope, I am not giving in any further. And that's when the screws start getting turned from the central

00:35:55institutions, John. There is a letter that comes out from Joseph, and in that letter, it circulates around,

00:36:04and they call it like this. They call, you know, in the message how all of Branham's sermons are in an app

00:36:11called The Table, and how we've mentioned with Perry, with Ewald Frank, that, you know, he was the

00:36:17faithful servant to give meat in due season. Like, the sermons of William Branham are referred to as

00:36:22the food, the manna from heaven, the life-sustaining bread of life, which the message believers must eat

00:36:29and consume to survive. And so that's like the euphemism or the metaphor in the message for the

00:36:38sermons of William Branham. It is the bread, it is the food. Well, Joseph and the main sect, they start

00:36:46accusing people of eating stolen bread. And so if you got your bread not from the official source,

00:36:56you're eating stolen bread, okay? And you're a thief, and you're an accomplice to, you know, thievery,

00:37:01you know, is the implication of it, right? And people start getting labeled bread thieves and

00:37:06food thieves, right? And so Perry Green, though, when all this starts, Perry Green is the singular

00:37:12target of the focus of all this when it starts. Perry Green is the bread thief, John. He's stealing the

00:37:19food and reselling it. And are you getting your food from an authorized source, or are you aiding

00:37:27the bread thief, John? You know, and so that's how it all kind of plays out. And the main sect of the

00:37:32message, John, they actually organized book burnings. You might be aware of this. They organized book

00:37:36burnings where they had got all the literature they could find that was not published by the central

00:37:42institutions. And they had massive bonfires where they burned all of the non-central institution

00:37:47literature in the 1990s. And at that time, it's primarily, John, it's primarily here in North

00:37:56America, it's the literature that came from Tucson Tabernacle that they're burning, okay? And so

00:38:01in essence, John, they're literally burning the works of Perry Green and the Tucson Tabernacle

00:38:10in the flame. And boy, Perry Green didn't take that very well, John, you know?

00:38:15Perry Green took that pretty badly when they started burning all of his literature. But this

00:38:22is how it's ratcheting up and getting more and more and more harsh towards Perry Green. And by the

00:38:30time they get to where they're burning his literature, yeah, Perry Green is in full-on mode that he is

00:38:37going to fight tooth and nail at that point. And that's when he starts going out organizing the

00:38:42other preachers to file the lawsuits or defend the lawsuits and try to do copyright stuff to get

00:38:50control of the message literature. It's like an entertainment gospel, man. We talked about how

00:38:55you didn't grow up with television, and most of my life I didn't also. But I've seen the Mission

00:39:00Impossible where the message is sent, and it comes in this little tape recording, and it said,

00:39:05this message will self-destruct in 60 seconds, whatever it is. And that's what this message

00:39:11was, man. These guys who were transforming and molding William Branham's entire stage persona,

00:39:18they're the ones in power. They're the ones controlling and manipulating what the message

00:39:22became. Well, it self-destructs after so many years because there is so much internal fighting and

00:39:29conflict that whenever one guy rises into power and then they realize, wait, the people just found

00:39:36out that this guy is a scoundrel and he's stealing their money. Well, they can't uplift him anymore,

00:39:41and whenever he's disavowed, all of the message that he changed is disavowed with him. So it's like

00:39:48the message becomes this thing where you get it for a period of time, and it's this very important

00:39:53message, but it's going to self-destruct in 60 seconds. As Perry Green starts to have his fallen

00:40:00out, you know, late 80s, early 90s is when it really comes to a head with the main sect of the

00:40:05message, John, he starts flip-flopping on stuff in order to get closer in relationship, I think, to

00:40:15this sect of the message that's going to help, you know, the churches that are going to help him

00:40:20fight in the copyright wars and eventually really break away from the main sect. And he flip-flops

00:40:28a lot of stuff in those years, John. Like, for example, one example of a huge flip-flop of Perry

00:40:35Green is it would be fair to say that Perry Green was one of the chief primary architects of the

00:40:42return ministry beliefs. Absolutely. He was one of the primary architects of the belief that William

00:40:49Branham was going to resurrect from the dead and ride this trail again, right? He was one of the

00:40:54main architects of that from the funeral of William Branham, even. But you come up into the mid and late

00:41:0180s, right? And he starts changing his tune, John. And why does he change his tune? He changes his tune

00:41:08because he's having a falling out with the main sect of the message, and he's trying to make new

00:41:13friends, right? He changes his tune, and he starts acting like he never had anything to do with that,

00:41:18John. He starts acting like, oh, that was other people. That was other stuff, and all that's crazy.

00:41:23And he even, towards the end of his life, John, he would say, if, if William Branham's going to race

00:41:29from the dead, if that happens, right? He would start using the word if for that stuff. And when he

00:41:34was interviewed, John, he was interviewed, Perry Green was interviewed by Doug Weaver. When Doug Weaver

00:41:40wrote his biography of William Branham, I think came out in 1987. And Doug Weaver asked him point

00:41:46blank about the resurrection beliefs of William Branham, because everybody knew a lot of that to

00:41:51come from Perry Green. He asked him about that, and Perry Green says, no, I never believed that.

00:41:56I never said that. Never had nothing to do with that. And that's in Doug Weaver's book. Perry Green's

00:42:00such a liar, John. I mean, absolute liar. And it's crazy, you know, just how he flip-flopped on this,

00:42:08and then gets in with all the other people. And this is what's crazy. This is so, you know,

00:42:12we talk, I'll say a few names, John, you know. You know, you talk like, well, maybe I won't. Maybe

00:42:18I won't say a few names here. But the, there's preachers in the main sect who are all really

00:42:23tight, or, you know, they're not main sect anymore, but preachers who are really tight with

00:42:28Perry Green. Really, he's a lot of the key to their, to their ministries, right? And they talk so

00:42:36highly about him, and how much, you know, and all this stuff. But then, on the other hand, they'll

00:42:41rip the return ministry to shreds. Perry Green's the guy who started the whole thing, practically,

00:42:46right? I mean, and their stuff they're doing, it just don't make any sense. Like, they don't,

00:42:50it's like, don't you know, you got into bed with one of the very guys who started the return

00:42:54ministry beliefs, and now your, your ministry is descended from him, and you, you know, they just

00:42:59kind of slough it all off like it was somebody else that came up with it all. But, John, I'll tell you

00:43:04for a fact, Perry Green was splitting faith assembly churches back in the 70s because

00:43:08they wouldn't believe in return ministry. That was what caused multiples. He schismed

00:43:13churches if they did not believe in return ministry in the 70s, right? And then you get

00:43:17into the 80s, and he starts saying, if, if William Branham's going to resurrect, like,

00:43:22there's all of these massive flip-flops. Like, you take this, Only Believe magazine, for

00:43:27example, and you open up in here. This is the point in time where he's starting to

00:43:32transition away from, from return ministry. And in here, he kind of, he kind of plays

00:43:37it down the middle. He talks about, yeah, I used to hold my head next to Brother

00:43:41Branham's grave and casket waiting to see if I could hear him. But then I started to

00:43:46believe if someone came from the dead, no one would believe it, you know. So he, this

00:43:50is like the, a transition point where he starts walking back his return ministry

00:43:54beliefs. And then by the time you get later towards the end of his life, you know, it's

00:43:58obvious William Branham's not coming back. Um, he, he transitions completely away from

00:44:04that. But, I mean, it just feels so pathetic to me, John, honestly, that he would even do

00:44:09this, and even worse, that the people let him get away with it.

00:44:12And what has just hit me about all of this, Charles, all of this mess and confusion has

00:44:18led us to a point in our conversation, you and I, where we're talking in loaded

00:44:23language. And I'm thinking all of the people who are listening who weren't in the

00:44:27message, they're wondering, what, what is all of this mess that they're talking

00:44:31about? Return ministry, what is that? My family grew up in this weird thing. We

00:44:36believed, like Perry Green taught, like my grandfather taught, that William Branham

00:44:41was coming back again. And the absurdity of this, to anybody who wasn't in it, we

00:44:47believe that William Branham would hold one last tent revival, just like they did in

00:44:52the 1950s. And if you were lucky enough and fortunate enough to make it to that

00:44:58tent, you could go into this little room where William Branham is giving you your

00:45:02new body and you go into heaven. Now, allegedly, William Branham said this to my

00:45:07grandfather, that this is how it was going to be. And my family used to, I'll

00:45:12never forget the, the hushed tones that they got into. Now you better make it there,

00:45:17John, because if you don't make it into that tent, you're not going to get your

00:45:21new body and you might not make it into heaven. So your whole transfer into heaven

00:45:26isn't on the life that you lived or whether you even believed in Jesus Christ.

00:45:32It was literally, can you make it to William Branham and can you go into his

00:45:35tent? And the absurdity of it, man, you know, in today's day and age, I can see why it

00:45:43was a problem thinking that you might not make it because most people aren't going to

00:45:46go sit and sweat in a hot tent. But the way they described it, there will be these

00:45:51news media that's, you know, showing that there's, here's this one last revival and

00:45:56outside of the world is chaos because they are teaching this apocalyptic themes.

00:46:02It's really, really weird. And if you're in the NAR or researching the NAR, it really

00:46:10mimics what they were teaching at IHOP KC, how instead of a tent, they had it in the

00:46:16stadium in Kansas City, right? They just literally replicated the return ministry

00:46:21chaos that they're describing and put it into the Kansas City Chiefs stadium, which

00:46:27is irony. But you've got all of this chaos that they're calling is, this is the

00:46:33message. This is what we're teaching. And leaders that are significant, like

00:46:38Perry Green, like my grandfather, as soon as it comes to a point where it's more

00:46:45beneficial to whichever side of the conflict exists to disavow the other one, they will

00:46:53completely cut off somebody who they may have taught what they taught for 50 years. But if

00:47:00it's advantageous to step on them and go forward in a different direction, they'll do it because money

00:47:06is flowing in a different way.

00:47:09I know. There's all these crazy hairpin turns, U-turns, 360s that happen with message beliefs,

00:47:18right? And a lot of these flip-flops with Perry Green all come as he kind of changes sides

00:47:26from the main sect, the main sect side, and he starts falling in with this, I would say, rebellious

00:47:33main sect side in the 90s, okay? So you've got the, you've got the, the core, their return

00:47:39ministry, their, you know, all that stuff. Perry Green kind of falls out of alignment with

00:47:46them and falls into the more rebellious section that they don't do tape, they're not tape

00:47:52churches, right? Like he kind of, I think that's maybe a good way to characterize it.

00:47:55Perry Green falls out with the sect of the message who is defined as tape churches, and

00:48:00he aligns himself strongly with the section that still is actually embracing public preaching

00:48:05in the main sect. That kind of happens in the 90s. As he gets on the bad side of the copyright

00:48:12stuff with the central institutions. And yeah, I mean, the flip-flops that he made in there

00:48:19were huge and dramatic. He went from being a key architect of return ministry to no longer

00:48:24believing in return ministry. He went from saying William Branham was under a cloud on

00:48:30February 28th, saying, no, that never happened. It was something else, you know, we were wrong.

00:48:34He went from backing up Billy Paul and Joseph and everything they did, like in lockstep with

00:48:41them, to turning, you know, being against them and really coming to loggerheads. And what happens

00:48:48is he goes out and he basically organizes a lot of the key churches in North America of the main sect,

00:48:57which still embraced preaching. He organized them to resist the central institutions' efforts to

00:49:04copyright the message literature. And what you have is, some of this is a little fuzzy because a little

00:49:12bit of it's, some of it was behind closed doors. But somehow or another, all this escalates up into

00:49:18a lawsuit where one church in Canada has trademarked the name William Branham. Joseph and the central

00:49:27institutions are attempting to copyright the literature of the message and trademark different

00:49:32message terminology phrases and William Branham's name. So this is all, you know, going into a legal

00:49:39setting. And so Perry Green is then organizing all these churches to resist those copywriting efforts

00:49:45and oppose, you know, those attempts to do all that. And this, this gets ugly and it drags on in the

00:49:51courts for a little while with back and forth threats of lawsuits and stuff. And finally, it all comes to

00:49:57a head in the early 2000s. And eventually there's a settlement behind the scenes where they all settle the

00:50:05matter out of court, the details of which are not entirely public, but I think we can deduce some of

00:50:11what that settlement was based on some information that went around back then. But at the end of the

00:50:19day, the whole thing settled out of court. And when it settled, though, there was so much bad blood

00:50:27that had been generated between the main sect churches that were, took the side of the central

00:50:33institutions and the main sect churches that were opposed to the central institutions, that the

00:50:38main sect schism, really, I mean, that's how I look at it. I don't know, you might have a different

00:50:43perspective, John. But my view is the main sect schism in that point. And that's when you see

00:50:48the churches that some people would call them as the bride's coming churches. But the churches that's a lot

00:50:54of the churches that still embrace preaching rather than playing tapes broke away from the main sect.

00:50:58And that happened coming through the 90s and into the early 2000s. And so the main sect really almost

00:51:04divided in two here in North America. And actually, the majority of what I would consider main sect

00:51:09churches broke away through that period of time and formed a new faction. And in that way, I don't,

00:51:15myself, John, I don't think the main sect is actually the largest sect in North America anymore. I would say

00:51:20the largest sect in North America are the churches that broke away during the copyright wars,

00:51:24of which, you know, Perry Green was one of the key figures in that whole escapade. Now, the main

00:51:31sect still is the largest internationally, right? I mean, when you add all of the balances up,

00:51:36they're still the largest sect of the message. But I think in North America, it's very close that

00:51:40they are maybe, at the most, they're maybe tied with first place with this sect that broke away

00:51:46over the copyright wars. And so, anyways, that is how that all unfolded to lead all of those churches

00:51:54to break away in some way from the central institutions in the main sect of the message.

00:52:00That's leading up to the point where, in our podcast, it's going to get very interesting,

00:52:05because what you're describing, once it got into the copyright wars, I'll never forget walking into

00:52:11my grandfather's house, and he's holding up this very, very ugly picture of William Branham's son

00:52:18on the face of the cover of a magazine. And he's standing there, he's sitting there with his stern

00:52:23look on his face. And he's using one of Martin Luther's most famous statements, Martin Luther's

00:52:32declaration of, here I stand, I can do no other. It was a defining moment leading up to the Protestant

00:52:38Reformation, because Martin Luther is standing against the Catholic Church. And the cover of that

00:52:45magazine during the copyright wars, the title was Here I Stand. So, in effect, you have William

00:52:52Branham's son, who's literally declaring by that statement that the entire message cult has become

00:52:59like the Catholic Church, at the moment in which they're all fighting with each other. And he's

00:53:06condemning them in that way, yet at the same time, he's trying to, from all appearances, he's trying to

00:53:14rise up and become the Pope of the message sect. So, there's this internal conflict with what he's

00:53:19saying and the message that he's sending, and everybody's like scratching their head. Even my

00:53:24grandfather, he was unclear where to stand on the Here I Stand, because he could see this rise to

00:53:34trying to become the central figure, but yet he could see the hypocrisy elsewhere. And where do you go

00:53:40with this? I think my grandfather's exact words were, why are they trying to copyright and limit

00:53:46William Branham's message whenever it should be free for everyone, because it's like the Bible?

00:53:53And if we can spread it abroad and spread it to as many people, you shouldn't try to put limits on

00:53:58the spread of God's Word. I'm paraphrasing greatly, but that's essentially what he said, because my

00:54:04grandfather believed that William Branham was God in the flesh, and he believed when William Branham said

00:54:09it was the spoken word for your age. It was the quote-unquote word, the Bible. So, he didn't

00:54:16know what to make of all of this. He thought the whole thing was nonsense and absurd, and I don't

00:54:21know where he landed on it, actually, because there was that kind of a rift in the message.

00:54:26That is another really important angle that you pointed out there, John, because this copyright war,

00:54:31in one side of it, it's really just a symptom, almost. It's a symptom of people who don't want

00:54:40to submit to the authority of Joseph as he rises into power, right? There's that whole angle of it

00:54:45happening, too. So, it's not simply that they're opposed to, you know, they're opposed to copywriting

00:54:53and letting the central institutions control all the distribution of literature and, you know,

00:54:58literature and recordings, but it's there also, they reject Joseph as this new central figure

00:55:06of the main sect, okay? There's that aspect to it, too. And so, what you have through that period

00:55:13of time, kind of a slow-moving schism, you have, and I want to, you know, in my opinion,

00:55:21Joseph and the central institutions wanted to get rid of the churches who wouldn't submit to him

00:55:25either, right? They were glad to see him go, right? So, both sides are, went to loggerheads,

00:55:32are moving towards a spot where any church that won't submit to Joseph, any church that won't

00:55:38respect him as a prophet, you know, in the shoes and mold of William Branham, and anybody who won't

00:55:45submit to his demand that they allow the central institutions to control all the distribution

00:55:51of the literature and recordings, they all end up being pushed off, right? They're either pushed off

00:55:58on purpose or just the friction of the whole thing turns them off to the central institutions

00:56:03and they break away. The last really big message convention, too, happened in those years, John. I

00:56:09think there was a convention, the Easter meetings right around that time, I have the numbers in my book,

00:56:14The Easter meetings before the Copyright Wars had something like, I want to say it was close to

00:56:2010,000 people attended those meetings, John. But then the Easter convention on the other side of

00:56:26the Copyright Wars, the attendance crashed by almost half, right? So, and I think that those numbers kind

00:56:33of illustrate just how much of the main sect broke away over the Copyright Wars, right? Through the

00:56:40attendance numbers at the Easter convention, you can see that. So, yeah, the main sects here in North

00:56:44America schismed really badly over all of this stuff. The Copyright Wars, the rise to Joseph, and

00:56:50you know, we keep teasing. We may or may not get to some episodes on the central institutions, on

00:56:56voice of God or on spoken word and things that happened there. You know, we're going to have to

00:57:02debate that maybe just a little bit, but I hope we can get there and talk about some of those things,

00:57:06and when we do, maybe we'll talk about this just a bit more. But where we're heading next,

00:57:10John, I mean, we have finished, this is the last major sect of the message that I had besides the

00:57:15main sect itself, which we probably need to do some episodes on the main sect, right? Besides the main

00:57:20sect itself, this is the last of the major sects of the message that I went through in my book. And if

00:57:26our listeners wonder, I'm just going through my book, Come Out Over My People, Volume 2, 1966-2005,

00:57:33History of the Message. And I just dedicated a chapter to every major sect of the message.

00:57:38And what I have next in the book, John, which maybe is worthwhile for us to go through, I have a

00:57:43chapter just dedicated to minor or regional sects of the message, notable sects of the message. And we

00:57:48might take the next episode or two and go through some of the more minor sects of the message and

00:57:54just talk about some of the more interesting things that happen there or just, you know, make people

00:57:59aware of them. And when I say minor, they're not necessarily minor in small, small size of number of

00:58:05people because some of them are large. Some of the minor sects of the message have 40, 50, 60,000

00:58:10members even. But they're at least minor in the sense that they don't do a lot of mission outreach

00:58:16and they're pretty insular. So don't have the same global impact. Basically, every sect we've covered

00:58:21up to this point has had a global impact and has a global network of churches. And so that's really

00:58:27the criteria I use to decide major versus minor sect of the message. Are they global or are they not

00:58:34global and how they broke away? So anyways, John, I think that's where we're at. And I look forward

00:58:40to picking up in our next episode and continuing on. Yeah, I'm excited to go there also. And at the

00:58:46same time, I would argue that there is no minor sect of the message, because if you understand how

00:58:53this massive, massive occult works, it's the minor sects that come forward with all of these

00:59:00new special revelations of what they think the message is and how to interpret it,

00:59:05that transforms the entire cult as a whole. Later, they're disavowed, they become minor,

00:59:10they become forgotten. But some guy is going to rise up and say, hey, I know this prophecy of

00:59:16William Branham that you don't know. It's a secret and it's only to me. And then he goes around and

00:59:22tours and spreads whatever is the nonsense. People adopt it, it becomes part of the message,

00:59:27they get disavowed, forgotten. But whatever was the nonsense that transformed the message as a whole,

00:59:34in many cases, Charles, it remains in the message. And as that progresses on through time, as we have

00:59:41been able to show some to some extent, and will show through the rest of the podcast, this really

00:59:47transforms how Americanized Christianity, the charismatic movement, it transforms all of it.

00:59:53So there's so much more to say, we'll save it for the next episode. If you've enjoyed our show and

00:59:58you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org

01:00:03and christiangospelchurch.org. For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals,

01:00:09read Come Out of Her My People. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,

01:00:13read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:00:43I'm going to be looking for a story. And we're going to be fascinating. And I'll see you in the end.

01:00:48Justfang of a little bit of a new version. You can find me in the end.

01:00:52I'll see you in the end. I'll be glad you're building one thing.

01:00:54I'm going to be glad you're being here for the next episode.

01:00:56I'll see you in the end. I'll see you in the end.

01:00:57Bye-bye.

01:01:05Bye-bye.

01:01:08Bye-bye.

01:01:11Bye-bye.

01:01:12Bye-bye.

01:01:13We'll see you next time.

Branham Lied — and His Top Ministers Knew It - Revival History - Charles Paisley - Episode 348

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