Better Call Pearry: The Cult Kingpin Who Slapped His Way Into Power - Revival History - Episode 339 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Charles discuss the rise and influence of Pearry Green—one of the most controversial figures in the post-Branham “message” sect. Despite entering the movement just two years before William Branham’s death, Green rapidly rose to power by stepping over more established leaders, manipulating church structures, and allegedly exploiting congregants for financial and spiritual control.  Charles shares insider details on how Green’s abrupt intrusion into leadership caused early rifts, including conflicts with ministers that Branham himself had appointed. They explore how Green’s founding of the Tucson Tabernacle—under disputed circumstances—fueled division, and how his strategic alliance with Billy Paul Branham helped them seize control of key message institutions.  The conversation traces Green’s network of businesses, his alleged financial kickbacks, and the disturbing ways message leaders combined religious control with economic coercion. From violent incidents to legal battles and immigrant exploitation, this episode uncovers the cultic structure and criminal influence that allowed Pearry Green’s empire to grow after Branham’s death.  ⸻  📘 Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:08 Pearry Green’s Rise After Branham’s Death 04:00 Origins of the Copyright Schism 05:56 How Green Entered the Movement in 1964 07:20 Tensions with Early Jeffersonville Leaders 09:17 The Myth of Perfection in Leadership 10:26 Green’s Claimed Wealth and Personality 12:07 Green’s Reputation Among Message Preachers 13:30 Conflict Over the Tucson Church 16:51 Fallout from Branham’s Death and Green’s Power Grab 19:03 Slapping Incident at the Hospital 23:01 Comparing Green’s Behavior to Papal Politics 25:06 The Power Struggle with Other Leaders 27:06 The Green–Billy Paul Alliance 31:04 Expanding the Message into Latin America 33:21 Financial Kickbacks and Message Empires 36:16 Green’s Business Network and Control of Members 40:18 Religious Coercion in Business Settings 43:13 Exploiting Immigrants and Message Followers 47:16 Transitioning to Literature and Legal Battles 49:45 Closing Remarks and Next Episode Preview  ⸻  🎧 Listen to the Podcast Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts: https://william-branham.org/podcast  📘 Books Mentioned – Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR  Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962  Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K – Come Out of Her My People, Vol. II  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DNFN2XYR  ⸻  🙏 Support & Follow the Channel – Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Website: https://william-branham.org – Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg – TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Bookstore: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:00You

00:31Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham historical research podcast

00:36I'm your host John Collins the author and founder of William Branham historical research at William

00:42Branham org and with me

00:44I have my co-host researcher minister and friend Charles Paisley the founder of Christian gospel church org and the author of come out

00:52of her my people

00:54Charles it's good to be back and to talk about all things crooked in the message

00:59I'm you know, it's it's funny to me because we're gonna be getting into a very unusual

01:05Message character and yet he was along with my grandfather

01:09I would consider him one of two main pillars that really lifted this thing up after Branham fell and

01:15they somehow managed to keep the scheme going and I remember clearly hearing conversations, especially

01:23When we get towards the discussion of the copyright stuff

01:27I remember hearing

01:29discussions in the family and

01:31you know, I was a kid so I didn't think much of it, but they were talking whoever it was was talking about how

01:38This this guy that we're gonna be talking about today. Perry Green. He was a crook and

01:44You know that phrase was thrown around a lot when I was growing up and you never really took it literally

01:51The shock that I had when I learned that no, he was actually a crook like

01:56Legally prosecuted and everything this this is a big deal and

02:01I got to thinking recently about that phrase man. We would call people crooks just

02:07You I don't know if your sect was the same way, but especially the other leaders and the other sects

02:12They were crooks and they're you know, they're scamming the people whatever they're doing

02:17Usually it was some business venture that they they were performing it a little underhandedly

02:23I'll just say it like that and then you realize that no some of them were actually crooks and you start to think

02:30Through your mind about all of the things that they brought to the global message

02:35To the structure of the message and you start to realize that no

02:40They helped them form the mythology and we'll be getting into this book acts of the Prophet

02:44But it is it is a clear example of how?

02:49underhanded

02:50Criminal leaders in this movement were able to shape the movement, especially after the man died William Branham died

02:57They were able to shape it mold it and create what it became

03:02That's very well said John, you know, you're right. Perry green is one of the most

03:09critical figures to the development of the message in the years that came after you know along with along with Ewald Frank along with

03:17Your grandfather Billy Paul Raymond Jackson Joseph Coleman Lee Vale

03:21He is in a kind of a first-tier sort of a position in advancing the message forward after William Branham died

03:29And of the first-tier preachers again, he's he's in the top tier first-tier preachers as well, right?

03:35I mean just in the level of influence that he had now as we talk about him today

03:40you know if our listeners remember we have been working through a series of

03:44Episodes where we've been going through the sex of the message and today we're going in to start laying the groundwork to talk about

03:51a sect of the message which

03:54In some ways does not have a name. It doesn't have its own

03:58Really unique name that has stuck to it

04:00There are names that float around out there that some people will label it

04:04But it is essentially the sect of the message that broke away from the main sect over the copyright wars

04:10which which started you could say they started in 1989 and they escalated through the

04:171990s and and the schism was complete by the early 2000s. It was kind of a long

04:22slow moving a slow moving schism

04:26But it it it produced a very large set of churches, especially in North America

04:33that were

04:35Separated from the main church mainly over bad blood

04:40That rose up during the copyright wars, we're gonna do a full episode on the copyright war

04:44So we're not gonna dive too much into that right now. But just be aware. That's what we're doing

04:48We're kind of giving the backstory to figures and especially Perry Green that leads up to their sect breaking away

04:56Real generally during the 1990s now Perry Green John

05:00Perry Green can fairly be looked at as the key figure

05:05Certainly in that group of churches because as those days came along he was the canary in the coal mine

05:10He was the at the forefront of getting the wrath of the central institutions over the copyright stuff

05:16And it's really them coming after him over the copyright stuff led him to respond by

05:23organizing the the anti copyright faction

05:28You know coming into the early 90s, which then led to the great schism

05:31Okay in the message, so Perry Green just plays a central role in all this

05:36Like I said, we'll talk about all that in more detail here in another episode or two, but let's just talk about how Perry Green

05:42Got started off in the message in that book. You have acts of the Prophet John there in your hand

05:47I've got some different editions of it here, too

05:49We'll dive into that a bit but in that book in addition to examining the life of Perry Green Perry Green actually gives

05:56A full explanation of how he came into the message in that book because that book is essentially started out as

06:03Perry Green's conversion and eyewitness testimony story of of William Branham and in that book Perry Green is very clear that

06:11He converted to the message in

06:14approximately February

06:161964 or shortly thereafter February 1964. So as you know, John

06:22In 1964 that's less than two years before William Branham died, okay, so

06:28Just for just think about this

06:30you know kind of wipe away all the history of the message that came after William Branham and go back to

06:361965 and 1966 when William Branham died when that happened John Perry Green was a new guy

06:42Perry Green had fairly recently just showed up. He came to Jeffersonville for the first time in 1964 as well

06:51And that is where he where he claimed to convert to the message

06:54and

06:56So Perry Green is this relative newcomer to the message you think about that?

07:01Like you think about your grandfather who's been with William Branham for many years by that point or Raymond Jackson

07:06Who's been with him for many years or Lee Vale many years or the people here in Jeffersonville?

07:10Who's been with William Branham since the 30s, right?

07:13Perry Green shows up as as a relative new newcomer into the message

07:18But then a

07:21Year and a half later William Branham dies and Perry Green

07:24skyrockets into a first-tier leadership position kind of leapfrogging over all of these far more senior people who have been with

07:32William Branham for

07:35Some of them for decades at this point John and you just think about that that

07:41situation

07:43Caused a whole lot of bad blood with Perry Green from the very beginning

07:48Because he didn't get into that by graciously being invited

07:52he got into that first year of leadership by

07:55Kicking and punching and climbing his way over everybody and doing whatever he had to stab anybody in the back

08:01To get into that first-tier leadership position. Okay, it was a very

08:07Nasty situation with Perry Green and the other guy or the other ministers back then really from the very beginning

08:13And so I think the first thing we got to do is kind of talk about that how that happened and how Perry Green

08:19Got away with it. Yeah, I agree and it's again

08:22It's such an unusual thing right when you consider

08:25The whole movement when you're considering this to be the people who are perfecting themselves to be the Bride of Christ there

08:31I don't know how it was it was in your sack, but we had like levels of perfection

08:36We would go all of often go to that stature of the perfect man

08:39You had to be that perfect man. If you wanted to make the rapture. Otherwise, you're part of the foolish bride. You can't make it and

08:47Yet at the same time

08:49After I kind of snapped out of this. I began to realize wait a minute

08:52I knew that some of the leaders had not achieved this and we're actually getting worse over time not getting better over time

09:01How could they be perfect in that scenario and they were doing things like I knew things that

09:06People were doing that man, I would never do that. That was just it was wrong

09:10It was sometimes criminal, but mostly unethical to what they were doing. And if you had

09:17You know, I read my Bible while I was in the movement if you read your Bible and you understand how?

09:22Whenever you accept the gospel according to scriptures, you're just reading the New Testament

09:27How it changes your heart. I

09:30Was beginning to notice that many of the leaders they didn't show that change of heart man

09:35While many of the followers did and I never really stopped to think wait a minute. What what is this built on?

09:41Why are these people like this and this is prime example? I you know again

09:46I remember hearing the conversations about Perry green

09:50But it was weird because since he was a different sect

09:54We kind of shoved that into a different category and I never thought about number one

09:59How important this man is to the remaining message following after William Branham died

10:05But number two what he did to get there because I knew also like your sect

10:10You've mentioned several times all of the leaders had dirt on the other ones

10:14And here's this man who comes right before William Branham died who suddenly becomes one of the main pillars of the message

10:20What did he have on the other people? That's really my question as we dive into this just a little bit more John. So

10:27Perry green

10:29Was a very wealthy man very very wealthy man. Well, at least he said he was wealthy, right?

10:34I mean, this is how we got it back up here

10:37He said he was very wealthy and I think there's evidence that he that he was was he lying about some of it

10:42He probably was you know, but here's the thing. He bragged about how much money he made John

10:47You can actually go back through his sermons and he'll tell you every year how rich he was

10:52And in 1964 when he joined the message

10:55He said he made

10:57$70,000 that year which translated into today's money would be

11:02$750,000 an annual income

11:04Okay

11:04so that kind of gives an idea of at least how rich he claimed to be and and and just that fact John that I

11:11Can tell you how much money he made in 1964

11:15Doesn't that say something about his personality? Okay that we can give you these exact figures. Okay, it does doesn't it?

11:24Absolutely, man, you know, I don't know if you've seen the show better call Saul but Perry green is the religious equivalent of better

11:32Call Saul

11:33He starts out as a two-bit whatever he was and starts making connections

11:38Whether it's by accident or he's pushing himself into those connections and then suddenly

11:45Somehow he rises to become this kingpin in the message and like better call Saul number one

11:52He wasn't really suited to do it. But number two once he got there

11:56He started, you know taking on the mold of what is a religious leader in the message the characteristics of the men

12:04He even though they all condemn each other. He's basically all of the others personified into a new creature and

12:14Again, he's a criminal man

12:15This is what the leaders have become in this thing

12:19Now I'm not saying that every leader in this is a criminal but the unethical characteristics that the others leader other leaders had

12:27somehow Perry Green put himself into the position assumed to those characteristics unless he had them before and

12:33Now become one of the elite in the message. So so Perry Green shows up in Jeffersonville

12:401964 he converts to the message. He's this super wealthy person and he is very

12:48His personality is very

12:51rude

12:53uncouth

12:54Inappropriate he oversteps bounds of reasonableness on a constant rate

13:00Okay

13:01This is Perry Green and he immediately instills bad blood with quite literally every other

13:07Notable figure here in Jeffersonville from the moment. He arrives. Okay bad blood from the beginning

13:12and

13:14You know the stories that come from those days is that nobody liked him and everyone wanted him to leave and

13:21They're telling that to William Branham

13:22And so William Branham sends him to Venezuela John as a missionary to get rid of him. That is the story

13:28Okay on Perry Green and so yeah, Perry Green ends up going to Venezuela as a missionary

13:34And you know as the years go by this ends up translating into Perry Green being a notable

13:40Figure in spreading the message into Latin America's good if it grows with time, but that's the story like they initially he

13:48He went into Venezuela to start spreading the message for William Branham after after he showed up. So

13:55this time goes by John and

13:58you know all of the message people are moving out to Arizona to Tucson, right and

14:04as

14:05that happens

14:07Perry Green decides he's gonna move out to Tucson, too

14:11and

14:12this again this to causes another big problem, right Perry Green is a man who just like

14:17He had this way of like making everything worse John everything worse that he got involved in

14:24okay, so William Branham is moving all of these people out to Arizona and and

14:29We got to blame William Branham for this a little bit because basically every preacher that William Branham said hey follow me out to Arizona

14:35He said I'm gonna start a church out there and I'm gonna need someone to be the pastor of that church

14:40Okay, he said that to Doug McHugh's John. I think he said it to your grandpa. He said it to Vernon man

14:46He said it to Roy Borders. He said it to all kinds of these people

14:50I think there was over a dozen preachers John that William Branham told they could become the pastor of the Tucson Church

14:56Come follow me to Tucson and they did and some of them like Doug McHugh's John

15:01They actually closed down their church Doug McHugh's had a church in San Jose

15:05He closed his church. He moved his entire congregation moved to Tucson, right?

15:11Under the impression that William Branham had said yes

15:14I'm gonna start a church and you're gonna be the pastor at the church in Tucson

15:18well, all of these people are moving there and

15:22You know about a year and a half after they've all arrived in in Tucson

15:28Guess who else decides to move to Tucson?

15:31Our the subject of our podcast today, mr. Perry Green decides to move to Tucson and

15:38Did William Branham tell Perry Green he could start the church in Tucson

15:42This is a massive message controversy to ladies and gentlemen. I mean if you're not familiar

15:45This is a huge message controversy. Did William Branham give Perry Green permission to start the church in Tucson?

15:51well, Perry Green swears that he did right everybody else swears that he didn't and

15:57Nevertheless Perry Green opens the Tucson Tabernacle

16:01I think the month before William Branham dies and William Branham has his his last

16:08One of his last church services there. He does the communion service there in 1960

16:131965 there was another service. He preached called rapture

16:16I think after that but anyways, he held one of his last two or three services right there at that church

16:21And

16:22Again, the story is John and you know, and how do how do we know what's right or what's wrong here?

16:27but the story is that William Branham was

16:30upset and displeased that Perry Green showed up and opened that church because he had promised it to somebody else and

16:36That he was going to take Perry Green down a peg or two, you know here and here in a few more days

16:42but his death interrupted his ability to take Perry Green down a peg or two and

16:46And left Perry Green as the pastor of this church in Tucson before William Branham could remedy the situation

16:54And for all of you conspiracy theorists out there, I'm not going to go too far with this for obvious reasons

17:00But if you do a few Google searches, I think you'll understand what I'm talking about here

17:06there was a significant move to Tucson in the late 1960s and early 1970s and

17:12If you do a Google search for Tucson mafia Tucson mob

17:19Joe Bonanno who is one of the crime figures of the New York mob?

17:24moved to Tucson in the late 1960s and then suddenly there's this sudden migration into Tucson and

17:31Why that is you can go read there's you know different reasons for this, but there are

17:38There's a lot of research that seems to make this where it appears to be a lot more than conspiracy theory

17:44I will just say it like that and leave it

17:46But if you want to go look it up, you can look it up

17:49So all these guys are moving to Arizona Perry Green among them

17:53Perry Green starts this church

17:56Everybody is so not only has he made everyone in Jeffersonville mad at him now

18:01He's made everyone in Tucson mad at him to

18:03Starting a church which William Branham had promised all these other preachers they could start so I mean it it's it's awful

18:10I mean, it's a it's a it people are coming to loggerheads

18:13But the reason that they're not is because are the beloved prophet William Branham has promised us all he's gonna fix this situation

18:19He's gonna put Perry Green in his place, right?

18:22This is what William Brown and I believe that William Branham definitely said that to people because there's so many people that say that he

18:28Did right? I mean, there's so many people that say yeah Perry Green

18:32Did this without permission and William Brown promised us he was gonna fix it, but then William Branham dies and

18:38interrupts

18:39If he was whether he was lying to those people. He's probably leading them on John

18:44He's probably leading everybody on he was so duplicitous

18:46but he

18:48When William Branham died nevertheless, he couldn't keep the dance up the charade couldn't keep going and now

18:55we're in this ugly situation where this newcomer has

19:00Stepped on a whole bunch of people to get himself into a first-tier leadership role

19:04Okay, and this inappropriate behavior of Levi or rather of Perry Green

19:10I want to give you just one more one more sort of example to kind of help our listeners visualize

19:15How the early message community was was reacting to some of this stuff. So when William Branham died in

19:221965 okay

19:23Perry Green shows up at the hospital John like he is like he is the most important person in the world to William Branham

19:31Okay, and he more or less completely takes over the situation in that hospital. He won't leave William Branham side

19:38He's staying there with him overnight. Like he is taking over the situation in that hospital

19:45Which again was very inappropriate and very unwelcome by many of the message leaders back then absolutely was not welcome behavior

19:52Right and Perry Green brags about this

19:54I mean him even bragging about this is an offense to a lot of the old-time message preachers that he even did this and

19:59Then of course when William Branham died, he insisted on he would not leave the side of the body

20:04He had to escort the body personally all the way back to like every step of this was considered an inappropriate

20:10Offensive thing by the other leaders in the message and when he finally got back here to Jeffersonville with the body as you and I

20:17Know John he was basically kicked out out of having anything else to do and your grandfather and my pastor and all the others took

20:24Over, you know and and made him sit down more or less at that point

20:29Perry Green was offended that he was not given a prominent role at the funeral and all that

20:33He never he did do a little slightly spoke at the very beginning as a little bit like an emcee at the very start

20:40But he wasn't allowed to give a eulogy or anything like that Perry Green was not happy about any of that

20:45He was personally insulted by all that and never that again just fueled, you know, the stuff that came next with him now

20:54one more thing

20:56Just put in here to just to help kind of again just set the table what this was like so at the hospital John

21:04When William Branham died

21:06Billy Paul's wife her name is Lois. She's still living

21:09I believe she started to weep and cry when William Brent when the news came to her that William Branham died

21:15You know, she's with and you know, that's natural. Isn't it?

21:18You know someone dies you're just that's kind of can break your heart. And so her heart was broke

21:23She starts to cry at the funeral

21:26What do you think or at the at the at the hospital?

21:29Perry Green comes over to Lois

21:33he grabs she he grabs Lois up Billy Paul's wife up and

21:38He pulls his hand back and he slaps her in the face

21:42And

21:44To get her to stop crying John

21:46okay, I I kid you not and

21:50He brags about this

21:52I mean for years and years he would brag about this John

21:54but when he did that like it was like shock and horror like like the other preachers and they're like

22:02You know, like I hope I'm just painting a good picture of what of what Perry Green was like, okay

22:09And again, you just got to put all this in context

22:11Perry Green had been in the message in less than two years a lot of these people hardly knew him from Adam

22:17Right now he did have a bit of a better relationship with Billy Paul because they'd went to seminary for a little bit

22:22Right, but most of these people didn't hardly know him. He he had not

22:26earned

22:27the

22:29Stature or the respect or the standing to do all of this stuff that he was doing and he was just running a rough

22:36shot over everybody and

22:38Nobody liked it. Okay. This is the situation when William Branham dies

22:43You know, everybody was trying to get her quiet and everything else and I go over to try to quiet her and I slap her

22:50If you haven't heard that that's the truth I slapped her

22:54Right there. I made a bunch of enemies. It is really unbelievable

22:57It would be like so the Pope just died and I'm not going to talk about all of the similarities between the Catholic Church and the

23:03Message, but if you do the math you can the sum of topics of where they align are very very close. It's unbelievable

23:11But say that you or I who are nobodies just suddenly showed up at the Pope's funeral and tried to inject ourselves into that ceremony

23:19That's what eggs. That's really essentially what Perry Green did

23:23He came out of nowhere to the Pope of the cult who has died

23:27And he's sitting there with all of the other Popes or they all the other bishops in the sect and hey

23:32I'm a bishop to recognize me. That's it. Exactly. And hey, I'm gonna come slap your wife

23:39What in the world John I mean what in the world

23:43It it's unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, it's really hard to it's just unbelievable stuff

23:49It's crazy stuff man. And again, we're talking about the person whose character is impure and

23:55Take this a step further than this

23:58so

23:59Like like we've said before the message leaders have dirt on the other leaders. I

24:05have some evidence that they also have dirt on some of the

24:09rising followers because they don't want somebody to rise up into authority who might sway the thing into a

24:16Non-profitable manner. I'll just say it like that. So they have some dirt on some of the rank-and-file members

24:21I have to wonder what they had on Perry Green and what he had on them

24:26Because I'm certain that this came to blows at some point some at some point in time

24:32They had to call this guy in a room and say look man. You just slapped my wife

24:36What in the heck are you doing and Perry Green would have said yes

24:40But I know this this and this and I'm going to talk if you don't let me in your inner circle

24:45I don't know how this conversation came to be. I wasn't there

24:49I don't even know if this conversation happened, but I can assure you that conversations like this do happen

24:55And it is the most likely scenario for him to have gotten where he was

24:59I gotta agree with you John and we might not get there today

25:02but we're gonna talk about a lot of the criminality and stuff that

25:08Perry Green was involved in and all the lawsuits all of this stuff and all of his victims and I think that'll help people

25:16Understand how that can certainly be true

25:21So

25:22So that's the situation when when William Branham dies Perry Green is a relative newcomer who has

25:29Stepped on people behaved inappropriately did all of this crazy stuff to get himself into a first-tier leadership

25:36Position as leader of the Tucson Tabernacle, which he may or may not have started with William Branham's permission

25:41I mean, we don't it's hard to be exactly sure

25:44and and here William Branham dies and

25:48So John we talked about in prior episodes how Billy Paul

25:53Overthrew the Branham Tabernacle right and installed himself as general overseer and all of that stuff. Okay

26:00Well back then, of course, I would say

26:04Half of the message community was in either the Branham Tabernacle or the Tucson Tabernacle

26:10I think those two churches together were 50% of the early message community

26:14I think that's very fair to say when William Branham died. Those two churches were 50% of the total message community

26:20I

26:21Want to say Perry Green's church had roughly 500 the Tabernacle had roughly 500 when William Branham died

26:28And so you're very close to half the community in those two churches. So

26:34For Billy Paul if he controls the Branham Tabernacle and he has the Tucson Tabernacle

26:40You know in line with him then he has

26:44Half maybe even the majority of the message under his control at that point, right?

26:48so

26:49Perry Green is the one who partnered with Billy Paul to enable the overthrow of the Branham Tabernacle John

26:56your grandfather was actually out in Arizona at the Tucson Tabernacle when all that happened in and

27:02Part of a part of the takeover of the two of the Branham Tabernacle. I think was

27:07partially trying to find

27:10Places for all these preachers that William Branham had promised that they could become the Tucson Tabernacle pastor

27:16It was they were trying to sort that position out right? That's when Vernon man came back the first time

27:21That's when your grandpa he came back eventually Doug McHugh's

27:25They ended up buying him his own church and he got to go have his other church out there

27:28You know, they were doing things to get these other these other people who had been promised the pastorship

27:35positions and

27:37You know, I think that's playing a role in it

27:39But Perry Green fully backs Billy Paul and Billy Paul and Perry Green actually were working in

27:45Total lockstep during those early days and Billy Paul and Perry Green roughly the same age. They had went to seminary together

27:53And they had actually kind of developed a friendship

27:56Okay

27:57and it's really the alliance of those two men that enabled them who were not

28:04The senior leaders who were not the elders of the message who were actually two guys who had really bad reputations in the early message community

28:12to essentially

28:14Totally overthrow all of the old guard and all of William Branham's

28:19True lieutenants when he died. I mean, that's the truth. They overthrew Ormond Neville. They overthrew Raymond Jackson

28:24They overthrew the other prominent ministers in Jeffersonville

28:27They usurped power over all the other ministers William Branham had led out to Arizona

28:32Right, basically Billy Paul and Perry Green working together

28:36Overthrew the message community in some ways when William Branham died and there's some interesting conflicts that happen as this is occurring

28:44No, as I mentioned before when you read the New Testament and you understand the Gospels

28:49there are several passages that talk about the sin of pride and they it talks about how to

28:55Humble yourselves and how the way of a true Christian is humility

28:59Yet there's this weird tension when somebody rises into power in the message and I can't put it into proper words without

29:07People having been there and seen it but my grandfather for example

29:11People would consider him to have been humble one of the most humble people they've ever met

29:16But watch somebody else rise into power and see how that humility plays out man

29:21It is by no means what you expect whenever they call humility and it's people who knew

29:29my grandfather offstage

29:32They would describe him with mixed emotions. He was the most humble man. They knew yet. Oh my gosh, don't anger him

29:39And that's not humility. That's really a stage act if you really think of what's going on

29:44So you have all of these stage acts you have people who are rising into power and as one rises

29:50Everybody wants to scramble to get dirt on them because they want to make sure that they're higher in power

29:55It's like this it's like a pyramid scheme everybody's trying to get to the top and

30:00Who's gonna make it? You know, the the person who's at the top has just died William Branham

30:05Who's the next one who's gonna rise and be the top of the pyramid when William Branham in the years shortly after his death?

30:12it's really the alliance between Billy Paul and Perry Green that

30:18Defines the main sect of the message. I would say it's that alliance between those two that holds the main sect together

30:25and gets them over that hump and

30:30You know beyond some of those first initial schisms and then and then helps the message spread out

30:35Because it's and it's their alliance together, which kind of starts the control of the message institutions

30:41We're gonna do some full episodes on the message institutions

30:43But it's it's it's some of if Perry Green is continuing to channel full gospel

30:48Businessmen money if I haven't said it already Perry Green was a full gospel businessman

30:52He's playing a key role in helping funnel full gospel businessman money into the

30:58expansion of spoken-word publications into the

31:02The tape producing franchise that eventually becomes voice of God recordings

31:06and so it's their alliance that really keeps it going Perry Green is

31:13central in moving in the money and Billy Paul is in the actual positions of

31:19Senior leadership at least on paper and behind the scenes of Branham Tabernacle and the central institutions

31:26so as

31:27That happens things gradually stabilize, right?

31:30You know as the schisms kind of take their toll and people break away things stabilize as you come into the early

31:371970s late 60s early 70s

31:39and and and and the friendship and relationship between Billy Paul and

31:45Perry Green stays really stays pretty good

31:47I mean as far as I know coming up into the 1980s and until I'd say the late middle the late 80s

31:53That's when that's when things start to get sour

31:56Well as long as things are going good, you know, they're all getting along

31:59Everything's fine, and you could consider Perry Green

32:03One of the most senior figures of the main sect honestly up until certainly up until the mid 1980s

32:10So through all of that time

32:14Billy Paul is

32:16Spearheading a lot of mission outreach for the message and and Billy Paul rather Perry Green Billy Paul helping him

32:24Especially focuses on Central America, you know Central America

32:28Mexico Latin America that part of the world and he's planning a lot of

32:33Hispanic churches John and I I think we can credit a lot of the

32:37Early growth of the Hispanic community to outreach that Billy Paul or rather Perry Green with Billy Paul's help

32:43Was was launching and doing like Golden Dawn Tabernacle, for example, like Perry Green help

32:49sponsor and kick off the creation of the Golden Dawn Tabernacle as a

32:54Spanish

32:55Hispanic message church in Tucson, for example

32:58There's other churches we could I could point you to like in New Mexico other places in Arizona in California

33:04and of course way down in Mexico and Texas that

33:07The Perry Green is helping sponsor and drawing a lot of Hispanic people into the message and sponsoring Hispanic missionaries

33:13to to spread the message into the Spanish-speaking nations of the Americas and there's where

33:19transitions from a pyramid scheme to this gray area between pyramid scheme and

33:25Actual business structure because what they're doing essentially in many cases not all but in many cases

33:32They receive kickbacks from those

33:35organizations and churches that they help establish

33:38Rightfully so to some extent if I offer a bunch of money to you and you

33:42Build a church and it cost me a bunch of money to help you get started

33:46I want to get some of my money back because of help you got started

33:49But in some cases there's a little bit profit on the side that comes with this

33:54So it's hard to know without going through all of Perry Green's

33:58Account ledger, which we don't have to know how much of it was business how much of it was legitimate

34:04I can tell you that if you look at some of the court documents, which we'll get into much later

34:11There's evidence that suggests that he was doing this for a business to make a lot of money and in some cases

34:17I think he made a lot of money

34:19Through his legal expenses. I think he lost a lot of money

34:22So, I don't know if he was rich or not

34:24You may not have known that this massive amount of money was flowing through Perry Green

34:28But the point I'm trying to make here is that when you're in the message and you hear about

34:34Things like this. Somebody's helping to grow a church in Mexico

34:37You're only thinking of the religion and you're starting to think well, this is great. The message is spreading

34:42It's getting the quote-unquote good news of William Branham out to the world

34:47But you really don't think of the business side of this

34:50There were people who really really tried to make money by growing their religious Empire and they were creating miniature empires

34:57So whenever the cult makes fun of people like Joel Osteen

35:01He's got this great big building all these fancy crowds all of this money

35:05Yet you look at some of the leaders in the message

35:08They're these little humble guys that look like they have nothing but some of them have entire empires across the globe

35:14And how do you account for this and how how is that different than Joel Osteen?

35:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostal ism?

35:26transition through the latter reign

35:28Charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic Reformation

35:32You can learn this and more on William Branham historical researches website

35:37William dash Branham org on the books page of the website

35:41You can find the compiled research of John Collins Charles Paisley Stephen Montgomery

35:47John McKinnon and others with links to the paper audio and digital versions of each book

35:54You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements

36:00If you want to contribute to the cause you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top

36:06And as always be sure to LIKE and subscribe to the audio or video

36:11Version that you're listening to or watching on behalf of William Branham historical research. We want to thank you for your support

36:18Perry green, so let's talk about his businesses a little bit John and let let's just talk about

36:24I'm not gonna talk about the literature piece today because there was a lot of money coming out of that

36:28Maybe we'll start talking about that when we talk about the copyright wars, but let's talk about his other businesses and just explain how

36:35Being in a position like he is in the message and there's lots of other message preachers today who are in a similar position

36:42How it is so how it is lucrative for them

36:45Okay in ways that I think people may not realize. Okay, so

36:50Perry green himself he owned he I believe he claimed he owned

36:5417 different corporations. I think that's the number he would give

36:58and

37:00Among them the the two of them

37:02I think that are the most notable is one was a construction company and the other was a travel agency

37:07Those are probably the two most notable ones, but he owned like a milk delivery business. He had stuff in oil

37:13Supposedly and again a lot of this is based on what he said, right and so he's got all of these different businesses and

37:22The message gradually John over time became more and more communal. Okay, as

37:28People began to come into these message communities the the gradual trend and this is in just about every message church that I'm familiar with

37:36John the the gradual trend is that

37:38these

37:40Prominent wealthier business owner types in the message church

37:45gradually became the employers of all the other people in the church and

37:50gradually

37:52The majority of the people in the church end up working for a

37:57Message boss a message employer, right? This is the trend and so

38:02The same is true Perry green, right as as as the church consolidates lots and lots of message people end up working for him and his

38:10businesses, okay, so he's got

38:14Message followers as his employees in his business outside of the church

38:19And and as you think about this, you know as the message is becoming more and more communal

38:23This is one of the one of the I think the very important steps on that path to communal living for the message, right?

38:29One of the first steps was they left public education. They started private education. Another important step was

38:35Employment consolidated to where the majority of people are being employed by message employers. That's another step. So anyways

38:43When you think about that you are now coming to my church

38:47I am a senior control over you you work for me in my business, right?

38:53It's moving into the place where where someone like Perry green or I could say other preachers that are in this exact same situation

38:59They now have near total control

39:03Over the people in their church who are also their employees in their business

39:10Okay, and so if you don't like what if I don't like what you're doing at work

39:15I'm gonna use my power as a preacher to punish you and and this has happened. I'm gonna whip you from the platform

39:22How dare you not do a good job. I'm gonna use my religious power to punish you. We're not

39:28Doing a good job at work or vice versa you're you're not be pleasing me at church. Guess what?

39:33I'm kicking you out that there goes your there goes your income and hey, I'm gonna make your family divorce you too

39:39You dirty dog

39:40This is exactly what Perry green did this sort of stuff quite a bit too

39:44And so do other message preachers as this happens, right? They have

39:50You could almost call it a captive workforce John and I'm not saying that it's this way for every person

39:55But there are I'm telling you beyond a shadow of a doubt

39:57There are a lot of people in the message today who are absolutely a captive workforce

40:02trapped working for message employers

40:05and

40:06They can't get away. They can't get away because of the control that that preacher has over them on all sides

40:12You don't like what you're getting paid

40:15Too bad you want to get kicked out of church and lose your family, right?

40:18This is the sort of power play stuff that goes on in these situations

40:22And here's where I get really really angry Charles I

40:26In business, I worked with an Asian India firm and they basically had Asian India slaves

40:33They did not physically own the people, you know in the United States

40:36That's illegal if that were to happen the the head of the corporation would go to prison

40:41But what they did was they had the if you wanted to come to America and work in an American company

40:47Will sponsor your visa will give you food room board everything that you need to survive

40:53But you're going to sign over to me a year salary in advance. That's how it worked

40:59So when they came here if they were to suddenly go to the authorities and say hey

41:03There are 30 of us sleeping on the floor of this apartment. We don't have enough food. The living conditions are horrific

41:10It's nasty in there

41:12They could not go to the authorities because they would lose a year's worth of salary. So these people were basically owned

41:18Not to that extreme but in a very similar way

41:22That's how people who are in leadership in the message own the rank-and-file members

41:28I've had multiple people contact me and it never really sunk in until the first lady called me and

41:35She was wanting to leave the message. She'd realized the whole thing was a scam and was false

41:40But she was employed by a person who is in the message and had some clout in the message

41:47Whenever she left and once they found out that she left the people would fire her and

41:53It's very common. It happens all throughout the message. They would fire her

41:57They would say well, she's a poor worker and give reasons outside of the fact that she left a message

42:03But they would do this and it's not legal. You can't legally do that. That is discrimination in the United States

42:10But this happens and it happens often so she was trapped and especially being female the women

42:17You know

42:17We're all trained in this cult that education is of the devil and they just they strongly

42:23Discourage it in some cases forbid it. So many of especially if you're a woman the women usually can't simply go get another job

42:31So if they have a job that they're supporting themselves in the message

42:35They can't leave and find enough salary to support themselves after leaving they literally have to move in with somebody

42:43I've seen cases where women just simply go get married to whoever so that they can escape the message and it's their only way out

42:50That angers me because number one it is illegal what they're doing, but it's from a biblical standpoint like I mentioned

42:58It's unethical

42:59take this a step further and

43:02Focusing a little bit more on the women there are passages in the New Testament that talk about caring for the widows and that's part

43:09Of the humble yourself help each other encourage lift the community of Christ up

43:15Well, they're a leadership that number one

43:17They know that they own the people by doing what they're doing. You create this environment where everybody can't leave

43:25Well number two, they some of them prey upon the widows. I have

43:31Not just one person, but there were many people maybe not many but there were some leaders who?

43:37whenever a

43:39Widow whenever a husband died and the widow took ownership of all of the husband's retirement

43:45Well, the leaders would step in and say hey, we'll care for you. We'll make sure that everything's good sign your entire

43:53inheritance over to me and then whenever the widow died they got everything and

43:58I have heard the cases where the children actually didn't even get their

44:03Inheritance because now the minister owns that entire inheritance

44:07This is what's happening in the message and it like I said, it angers me a few more things

44:12I want to point out about you know, this

44:14Employer business stuff which Perry green is a good example of it

44:20If you work for the leadership of the church, they know how much money you make they know whether you're paying your tithes or not

44:27Okay, and they you know that they use that to

44:34Compel financial

44:36Gifting out of you because they know how much money you got because they're paying you right?

44:39And so there's a there's like this aspect of it where yeah, I'm paying you this money in this job

44:46But now I'm gonna come to church Sunday and compel you to give X percentage of it back to me

44:51You know, and if you're not giving it back to me, then I'm gonna make life harder for you at your job

44:55I'm gonna make life harder at your church. So they know they know and this

45:01Absolutely happened it is rampant in the message this sort of thing

45:05That happens for people who work for for message employers

45:09and

45:11The way you mentioned bringing in people overseas

45:14This is another common thing you'll find in some of the larger message churches in I'm aware of this happening in Canada

45:20I'm aware of it happening in the United States

45:23In Perry green situation think of the Hispanic community, right they're bringing

45:28They are facilitating through the message immigration into North America whether Canada or the United States

45:34okay, and a lot of times these migrants end up working for the message leadership in their business entities and

45:43Perry green is no exception and in some cases like in the case of Hispanics

45:48It is you know what in America we call illegal immigrants writer undocumented workers

45:53And so now they've got an even higher level of leverage over those sort of people

45:58people sometimes it's a lot of times you'll you'll find it it being

46:04Africans and Indians as well John and so

46:08There's a lot of people a lot of the mission networks that exist overseas

46:13Especially India, especially Africa and especially even probably more than anywhere else and especially in older years in

46:20Mexico and Latin America

46:22These mission networks are converting people into the message and then they create a pathway for some of these people to immigrate into the United

46:30States

46:31sometimes legally sometimes illegally right and then these people end up working as employees in

46:38The businesses of the message leaders who now are using all of this, you know to their financial advantage, right?

46:45And you know, is it unethical? Yeah, a lot of it's unethical a lot of times

46:48Is it up? Is it always criminal? Maybe not always criminal could be borderline, right?

46:53But it's these situations where the point being the message leaders are financially profiting from this entire

47:00enterprise, right

47:02And in the church and the in the message just serves and for some of these leaders as a way to

47:08Bring in employees for their businesses, right and for them to have cheaper labor and that that's really sad

47:15Isn't it John that's very sad

47:17and if you really

47:19Take a step back from all of this and think of think of this religion not as a religion

47:25The message think of it as a business from the leadership standpoint

47:29Look at the types of businesses that are all connected to the church. You've got real estate. You've got contracting you've got roofing

47:37many of the business entities that they have created are

47:40the prime

47:42examples of companies who could benefit strongly from bringing in labor like you're describing and

47:51You know, I know some of the companies

47:53I'm not gonna go too far because they they might sue me if I tell everything that I know about their companies

47:58But think of the people who come into the area and now look at those businesses and think about how many people

48:05They have working for them who came who migrated from another country who are working on a visa

48:11And you know again, I don't have the financial

48:15Disclosures of every one of these companies their private entities

48:18But I can assure you based off of what we see with Perry green if he were doing this

48:23And I'm using if because I don't have the ledger if he were doing this

48:27I can't put it past him that he would bring people over and misuse the labor as well, but John

48:33I don't know how much more time we got to chat about this today. I know in our next episode

48:37I want to start diving into the literature and we'll talk about what was going on with Perry Green's travel business as well

48:44because I mean there are things we do have quite a fair bit of testimony and examples with and

48:50we'll also maybe start to go through some of the lawsuit documents where

48:54Perry Green was involved in I mean, I don't know how many lawsuits John

48:58I think it might be a hundred plus lawsuits that Perry Green was involved in right there was

49:04Definitely nefarious stuff afoot

49:05okay

49:06and as you read through the lawsuits that he was involved in it kind of gives you a clue as to the nature of

49:12things that

49:13Was going on with him and his businesses. So next episode

49:16Maybe we can start to dive into that and how that and the literature piece

49:22Ultimately leads into the copyright wars and in the schism that is to come so stay tuned ladies and gentlemen

49:29I hope I hope you're you're enjoying our deep dive into Perry Green in this sect of the message

49:34It's gonna be so much fun, man

49:36there's so much more to talk about with Perry Green and

49:39Remember after everything that you've heard today and especially what we're getting into in the next episode

49:45This is one of two main pillars

49:47like I said, my grandfather and Perry Green when William Branham died, they lifted this whole thing back up and

49:54By all means this cult should have imploded when William Branham died

49:59Because when he died everything that he said about himself and his end of days

50:04Scenario died with him. He can't have led the whole nation of Israel to the gospel

50:10For example, which is one of his claims

50:12They would do this before he died all of the visions that he saw when he was, you know

50:17Everything that he said that was unfulfilled died with him. So Perry Green and my grandfather lifted this thing back up and

50:24When we get into the next episode, you'll see the type of character that held the message up

50:29So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web

50:33You can find us at William dash Branham org and Christian gospel church org for more about the history of William Branham and the healing

50:41Revivals, you can read come out of her my people and for more about the dark side of the new apostolic Reformation

50:47You can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR

50:52available on Amazon Kindle and audible

51:11You

51:41You

Better Call Pearry: The Cult Kingpin Who Slapped His Way Into Power - Revival History - Episode 339

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