- today
John and Laura-Lynn discuss the deceptive legacy of William Branham and how his influence continues to shape modern religious movements. John shares his personal journey of leaving a spiritually abusive sect, discovering the true gospel for the first time, and confronting the hypocrisy and secrecy that defined his former religious environment. Laura-Lynn echoes similar experiences from her own background, highlighting patterns of hidden misconduct and the emotional toll of being raised under manipulative systems. Together, they emphasize the need for honesty, exposure, and healing for those affected.
The conversation traces the historical and ideological roots of Branhamism, including its ties to white supremacist ideologies, the Ku Klux Klan, and early 20th-century political movements. John explains how Branham’s theology was influenced by Roy Davis, a former Klan leader, and how this blend of religious legalism and racial theories evolved into the Latter Rain and New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movements. The pair discuss Branham’s mental health struggles, his shifting prophecies, and the ongoing idolization of his persona within various charismatic circles. The episode closes with a preview of a future discussion on the Seven Mountain Mandate and its historical parallels.
00:00 Introduction
01:03 Discovering the True Gospel After Leaving the Cult
02:14 Rapturing Faith and Works-Based Religion
03:00 Shared Experiences of Spiritual Abuse
04:46 Exposure as the Path to Healing
06:02 Hidden Hypocrisy in Branham’s Inner Circle
07:10 Leadership Scandals and Abuse in the Church
09:13 The Evolution of Cult Rules and Disconnection
10:50 The System Built to Hide Evil
12:01 Strange Fire and Repressed Sins
12:46 Historical Roots: Klan Ideologies Enter Pentecostalism
14:55 The Alcohol Rule and Personal Healing
16:04 Hypocrisy Among Branham’s Leaders
17:15 Cult Rules, Depression, and Healing
18:30 Drinking Culture Among NAR Leaders
19:43 Branhamism and End-Time Elitism
21:10 Paul Cain, Chris Reed, and the Branham Mantle
22:29 Propaganda, Confusion, and the Message
23:09 Transition from Rapture to Revival Theology
24:01 Branham’s Hospitalizations and Hidden Breakdowns
25:12 The Erased Years and Timeline Cover-Ups
27:01 Idolatry, Lies, and Spiritual Disillusionment
28:05 The Spoken Word and Doctrinal Contradictions
29:02 The Fraud of the 1933 Prophecies
30:33 Cornerstone Exhumations and Cognitive Dissonance
31:49 The Jones Connection and the Birth of the Seven Prophecies
33:37 Political Shifts, Sedition Fears, and New Prophetic Claims
35:42 Narcissism and the Rise of Apostolic Authority
36:51 The Psychology of Control and Delusion
37:56 Jonestown Links and Shared Ideological Roots
39:08 Racism, Serpent Seed, and the Hidden Doctrine
40:52 Branham’s Political Motivations and the Knights of the Flaming Sword
42:05 Seven Mountains and the Supreme Kingdom Prototype
43:31 Branhamism’s Legacy in Modern Dominionism
44:52 Political Cults vs. True Christianity
_______
The conversation traces the historical and ideological roots of Branhamism, including its ties to white supremacist ideologies, the Ku Klux Klan, and early 20th-century political movements. John explains how Branham’s theology was influenced by Roy Davis, a former Klan leader, and how this blend of religious legalism and racial theories evolved into the Latter Rain and New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) movements. The pair discuss Branham’s mental health struggles, his shifting prophecies, and the ongoing idolization of his persona within various charismatic circles. The episode closes with a preview of a future discussion on the Seven Mountain Mandate and its historical parallels.
00:00 Introduction
01:03 Discovering the True Gospel After Leaving the Cult
02:14 Rapturing Faith and Works-Based Religion
03:00 Shared Experiences of Spiritual Abuse
04:46 Exposure as the Path to Healing
06:02 Hidden Hypocrisy in Branham’s Inner Circle
07:10 Leadership Scandals and Abuse in the Church
09:13 The Evolution of Cult Rules and Disconnection
10:50 The System Built to Hide Evil
12:01 Strange Fire and Repressed Sins
12:46 Historical Roots: Klan Ideologies Enter Pentecostalism
14:55 The Alcohol Rule and Personal Healing
16:04 Hypocrisy Among Branham’s Leaders
17:15 Cult Rules, Depression, and Healing
18:30 Drinking Culture Among NAR Leaders
19:43 Branhamism and End-Time Elitism
21:10 Paul Cain, Chris Reed, and the Branham Mantle
22:29 Propaganda, Confusion, and the Message
23:09 Transition from Rapture to Revival Theology
24:01 Branham’s Hospitalizations and Hidden Breakdowns
25:12 The Erased Years and Timeline Cover-Ups
27:01 Idolatry, Lies, and Spiritual Disillusionment
28:05 The Spoken Word and Doctrinal Contradictions
29:02 The Fraud of the 1933 Prophecies
30:33 Cornerstone Exhumations and Cognitive Dissonance
31:49 The Jones Connection and the Birth of the Seven Prophecies
33:37 Political Shifts, Sedition Fears, and New Prophetic Claims
35:42 Narcissism and the Rise of Apostolic Authority
36:51 The Psychology of Control and Delusion
37:56 Jonestown Links and Shared Ideological Roots
39:08 Racism, Serpent Seed, and the Hidden Doctrine
40:52 Branham’s Political Motivations and the Knights of the Flaming Sword
42:05 Seven Mountains and the Supreme Kingdom Prototype
43:31 Branhamism’s Legacy in Modern Dominionism
44:52 Political Cults vs. True Christianity
_______
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Laura Lynn Tyler-Thompson,
00:48the co-host of Laura Lynn Live.
00:50Laura, it's good to be back and to talk about all things charismatic and past history in
00:56our religions, and you and I were just chatting briefly last night about the subject matter
01:01for today, and it got me to thinking of my first visit to a church outside of the cult.
01:08We went to a new church.
01:09We were there for not long, and they had this little book that they handed you, and the book
01:15was, What is the Gospel?
01:17And he says, If you're going to attend here, you probably need to go through this.
01:20We're giving a little class, and we can talk through it.
01:22And my first reaction was, Well, I know the Gospel.
01:25I've read the Bible.
01:26I've heard the Gospel years and years.
01:29And so he convinced me.
01:30I went, and just from day one of being in that class, I realized that I had never, ever,
01:37in my 37 years of being in the cult, had never heard the Gospel.
01:41And it was a very works-centered religion, the way the religion was framed.
01:49They would often quote, what is it, Ephesians 2, I think it is, for grace you've been saved
01:54through faith.
01:55You know the passage.
01:56But they would leave off that next verse, which says, Not by works, so that no man could
02:01boast.
02:02You would never hear that spoken in any of the churches.
02:05But what happened was, we had a religion that was supposedly centered on Jesus, but in order
02:14to achieve what was called rapturing faith, we had to mature ourselves and perfect ourselves.
02:21And before we could be raptured, we had to be a perfect church.
02:25And that's not that uncommon.
02:27It spread throughout latter rain.
02:28That was one of the core doctrines.
02:30But as you were asking me these questions, I was thinking through my past history, and
02:34I'm certain we're going to collide on some of the histories and some of the weird doctrines
02:39that we had.
02:41Yeah.
02:41You know, when I was thinking about how similar some of the things that you went through and
02:47I went through, it's been a lot to process.
02:50Can I tell you that since I've aired my interview with you, you came on my show, and then we've
02:58done, you know, a subsequent interview on your podcast, people are contacting me.
03:04And so far, no one's upset or angry.
03:07They're going, oh, yeah, I have my own story.
03:09Like, this isn't such as what happened.
03:11And I think this is why I want to be upfront and honest about it, because a lot of people
03:15went through really difficult things, such as you've described in detail and have been
03:21so courageous to come out with.
03:23But as we talk about it, first of all, there can be healing, and healing is so important.
03:29We can't heal when we have big secrets that fester, you know, underneath, like a cancer
03:34inside.
03:35And I went to a conference this last weekend, and so many people have experienced spiritual
03:42abuse in their past.
03:44And the part that we need to get to is where we can get healing.
03:49But in order to do that, there needs to be exposure, much like a wound that's in our
03:54body.
03:55We have to get the, you know, the pus out of there, so to speak.
03:59We have to get all this, the impurities, they have to be exposed.
04:04And I think that's what you're doing.
04:05And I thank God for that, John.
04:07I thank God for your life.
04:08And I know that you take hits for it.
04:11And I mean, I was just so shocked at the Branham liaisons with really bad people.
04:19The other thing was that some people in his immediate group were homosexuals.
04:28That part, it answered a lot of things because in our church, which was, you know, they had
04:36relationship with William Branham, there was a problem with that.
04:40And so, all of this coming out is just, it's so very timely.
04:45And I'm concerned about the deception that took place because people do idolize William
04:49Branham to this day.
04:51I know.
04:52It's so difficult.
04:53Whenever you've been in one of these groups that is spiritually abusing you, and basically
04:59they're lowering your level of self-esteem down so that they can become an authority over
05:04you.
05:05That's the way the religion was set up.
05:07I'm working with several counselors and psychologists.
05:11I have a cousin who is a psychotherapist who will, from time to time, come on the podcast
05:16and talk through ways of going through healing.
05:19One of the ways in which people find healing is after you have healed enough to give your
05:26testimony or give your story to somebody else, just mentioning your story creates a dividing
05:34line between you and that past that you are experiencing.
05:37So one of the reasons why I have every Friday, I allow people to tell their story.
05:42And by sharing their story, people can find healing.
05:45So that door is open to anybody who, you mentioned people who might want to find healing or might
05:52want to share their story.
05:53That door is open for them.
05:55But you're right.
05:56The deception, for me, that was the big thing.
05:59I just couldn't believe it.
06:01Whenever I learned that it wasn't just one thing that was false, there were so many things
06:06false.
06:06And, you know, like you mentioned, this was a religion that taught so strongly against
06:13homosexuality.
06:14And then you find out that among the leadership, it was almost open.
06:18They all, not all, but many of them knew that there were people who were homosexual in the
06:23camp.
06:24And while they're speaking and denouncing people who are in the congregation, well, the
06:29guy standing next to him or sitting next to him might be.
06:32And it flows all the way up to William Branham was the leader of the post-World War II healing
06:37revival.
06:39One or more of his campaign managers were openly homosexual among the inner crowd.
06:45And his two scribes, the men who carried his prophecies and who would write them down in
06:52books or, you know, produce the tapes, etc., they were homosexual men.
06:57So as Branham is condemning all of these homosexuals, well, in his campaign are these
07:01homosexual men.
07:03Why was it like that?
07:05Like, that's crazy.
07:06It's unbelievable.
07:08I'm just, I'm perplexed.
07:10So what is behind that, John?
07:13This deception.
07:14You know, my, our pastor was a lesbian.
07:18I mean, we didn't know, but it sounds like a few people had a guess.
07:22I was only like 13, 14, 15, 16, 17.
07:27And I didn't, I didn't know much about like signs of it or, you know, I wasn't in the inner
07:34circle.
07:35I was a teenager.
07:36But so when it comes out that she is being removed and all they could say was according
07:40to, I think they said to Romans one, they couldn't say the words, they couldn't be clear.
07:48It left us wondering which verse they meant, but she was just being removed and we just
07:54never saw her again.
07:54So she's, she's a lesbian, her brother's a pervert guy who's now in jail and he's molesting
08:06kids.
08:07And anyone who maybe would come out with that gets ousted from the church.
08:11So homosexuality then begins to be a real problem in our, you know, in our church.
08:20And there, there was other instances as well, but all the while, like you say, very strong
08:26preaching for morality and purity and God forbid, you know, that some young person gets
08:35in trouble, then all holy hell breaks out on them.
08:39That's for sure.
08:40You know, like a public apologies for, you know, a maybe getting pregnant or something
08:47like that, you know?
08:48So, and there, there's a great place for repentance.
08:52I don't know how all that goes.
08:55Sometimes it's really wounding and shaming and painful when you can say sorry, you know,
09:01and be sorrowful that you made a mistake, but these people were complete hypocrites.
09:07Absolutely.
09:08You know, and I think in my opinion, which is only an opinion, I can't really answer all
09:14the questions because there will never be an answer to them all.
09:17But I believe that the structure of the rules is what allowed the deception, because the
09:24way that the rules come to be, and we can talk about this deeper as we go into the podcast,
09:30they're in, they're presented in such a way that initially they aren't really a hard set
09:35rule.
09:35But over time, they get adopted as rules.
09:37They get adopted as ways in which people can perfect themselves for this quote-unquote
09:42rapturing faith.
09:44But what happens is, in many cases, the leadership never intended for it to be a rule.
09:49The congregation adopts it as a rule.
09:51So, the leadership may be breaking the rules in private, and whenever they finally discover
09:58that, wait a minute, this is now an established rule because I brought it up, there's this
10:04clear separation between them and the rule.
10:07And over time, as this keeps happening, you find leadership that have the rules for me but
10:13not for thee, etc., and that separation causes something logically to break and fall apart
10:22with regards to the way that they uphold the standards for whatever is their community.
10:29So, if you're in a group that has all of these rules and your congregation is participating
10:33in those rules, and you're not, eventually you become disconnected from it.
10:38And where do you draw that line?
10:40It might be something huge, such as we've examined in the podcast, there's a lot of sexual abuse
10:47that goes on with children in these groups.
10:49And what happens is, because the leadership is kind of immune to the rules, they instantly
10:54get restored back into their positions where they can become a predator again because they
11:00have no clear set of standards for the same set of rules that they're applying to their
11:06congregations.
11:07That sounds exactly it.
11:09And do you know what concerns me, John?
11:11Like, at the heart of it, I have to say, this is a heart of evil that would create a system
11:18to hide evil.
11:20This is pure evil.
11:22This is so bad.
11:24And we were actually authentic kids that wanted to be, we wanted to tell the truth.
11:31We wanted to live good lives.
11:32We were being told what we should be doing.
11:35And these folks, at the top somewhere, is truly, purely evil.
11:44One thing I would say is that Reg Lazell, I would say, he wasn't, I don't think he was
11:50evil, he was kind of a strong ogre type of man, but I think he wanted, in his heart, he
11:58wanted the presence of God.
11:59He wanted worship and praise to be a part of glad tidings, for instance, when he brought
12:05that back.
12:05He wanted it so strongly that he was even able, you know, to separate from the Pentecostals.
12:11But then, of course, there was strange fire, as I would call it, weird things that would
12:16happen.
12:16But ultimately, it seemed like the things in the background is what was the most surprising.
12:28It wasn't what we saw up front.
12:31Like you say, it's a system created in the background so people can sin.
12:35I would agree.
12:36And the way that that background came to be, historically, it's really difficult because
12:41there are so many converging histories of ideologies that came into religion as this thing was
12:46formed.
12:46You had the Prohibition Movement, which was entering into religion.
12:52It became a religious belief that if you're to be Christian, you have to separate from alcohol,
12:57which may not necessarily even be a bad thing.
13:00But the way that it was presented to the people was, this is a hard set rule in stone.
13:06And if you violate this rule, you're violating God's law.
13:09And therefore, you are condemned.
13:11And at the same time that that's emerging, you had the evolution, the fundamentalist debate
13:17versus the liberal debate.
13:19What happened is, it's a little bit unusual, but the Ku Klux Klan was adopting both of those
13:27ideologies at the same time that the Klan was being dismantled.
13:31And it all came back together in Indiana, in my home state, after the 1915 Klan dispersed.
13:42In Indiana, they tried to take over the Indianapolis government and almost succeeded in taking over
13:48the national government from Indiana.
13:51All of these ideologies were converging at the same time that William Branham's mentor, Roy Davis,
13:58is setting up his base of operations and training Branham on all of these different set in stone rules
14:07that must be adopted for Christianity.
14:10So, not necessarily saying that any of them are bad, but the way that it would have been presented
14:16to Branham is such that this is a religion of rules, we are adopting these rules, and we're
14:21trying to enforce these rules.
14:23With the militant aspect of the Klan, we will be very forceful in the way that we enforce
14:29these rules.
14:30So, he's being mentored by this type of personality.
14:34And at the same time all of that is going on, the very disparate groups of Pentecostalism
14:42are starting to come together and form what would eventually be the United Pentecostal
14:47Church.
14:48Davis and Branham tried to get their Pentecostal sect, which was new, embedded into this so
14:55that they could have some sway in the UPCI.
15:00And that's what led to many of the things that we see here.
15:03Many of these ideologies were creeping into Pentecostalism, as well as many of the other
15:08fundamentalist religions.
15:09So, it created basically this fertile ground for this rules-type religion to be developed
15:16and built upon.
15:17That reminds me, when you talk about alcohol, John, that was like, wow, next to the worst
15:24sin ever was having some alcohol.
15:28And I remember growing up, and then I left Glad Tidings when I was about 21 years old, and
15:34I had to kind of think, like, am I leaving God's favor?
15:40Am I going into other cults?
15:43Obviously, Glad Tidings is the only one that doesn't have a cult.
15:46Even though we're so messed up, I really have to leave now.
15:50But then you find out that all of these other Christians, they have a glass of wine for their
15:59stomach, you know, or casual, like, they're all doing it.
16:02They're not getting drunk.
16:04Then you have the excess people.
16:05Now, the NAR movement, that seems to have been riddled with drunkenness.
16:10So, there's this extreme thing happening.
16:13Well, and take it a step further.
16:15Among the leadership that were in Branham's inner circle, as all of this is developing,
16:20they were struggling with drunkenness themselves.
16:23Some of them were being publicly outed.
16:25They're working with one of the most famous defenders of prohibition, named William D.
16:31Upshaw, who was the congressman from Georgia.
16:34He was part of this, this movement, and he was actually very big in the Branham campaigns.
16:39So, they've got these rules that are for the leadership to present to the people, and
16:44then the leadership is not even obeying them.
16:48Last night, we were talking about, just briefly talking about, did we have a rules-based religion?
16:54If you go to my website, and anybody listening can do this, there's a search bar at the top,
16:59and if you type in rules, I have a list of just crazy things.
17:04Everything from, you're not allowed to look at comic books.
17:09That was one of the rules that I had.
17:10Alcohol.
17:11We were so trained not to drink alcohol that I literally thought, if you drank just a little
17:18sip, you might get drunk.
17:19Because that's how we were, we just condemned anybody that had it.
17:22It's an evil spirit if you drink this stuff.
17:25And I had, this is part of my testimony I've given elsewhere, but I had severe depression
17:32while I was in the cult, and especially coming to the point of leaving it, and was on depression
17:37medication.
17:37And after, it's a long story, I won't get into how it came to be, but after I learned
17:44that I can drink just a small glass of wine once per week, it completely eliminated my
17:50depression.
17:51And I had some stomach issues, totally got rid of my stomach issues.
17:56And people who were in my inner circle who would condemn me for this, I would just go
18:02back to what the Bible says, drink a little wine for your stomach.
18:04It's like a medicine.
18:05Exactly, it even says that, you know, like, it's right there.
18:13So isn't it interesting that they could just, first of all, behind the scenes, they're getting
18:18drunk and drinking.
18:19And I mean, this has come out recently with, you know, Rick Joyner and the gang there having,
18:25you know, and even with the people that I've run with in British Columbia, and Art Lussier
18:31being in trouble right now because of allegations of sexual abuse.
18:36But when we were in a behind-closed-doors meeting, basically, they were saying, you know,
18:41we really, we've really got to, you know, we're all really thinking that we need to stop
18:46drinking.
18:47I didn't understand that whole conversation.
18:50I remember looking around the room and going, do we have a drinking problem?
18:53I guess I wasn't invited.
18:55I was not invited to the drinking parties that the pastors in Canada have been doing.
19:01And they, so now I've got some people, you know, whistleblowers that tell me that it's
19:08quite a problem.
19:09Pastors are getting drunk.
19:10They're saying inappropriate sexual things.
19:13Like, people are really alarmed by the behavior of these pastors in Canada.
19:18And I'm like, you know, I didn't know because I didn't get to go.
19:23I think they might've thought she's not going to participate because I wouldn't.
19:27Even though I enjoy a glass of wine here or there, especially with people that are comfortable
19:33with it that are not drunkards.
19:36And so I did not understand this.
19:39So this is a NAR extension.
19:41These are Branhamites, I would say.
19:44Is that what you'd call someone who's, you know, loyal to William Branham?
19:47They hold him in high regard, like that he raised people from the dead, that he was, you
19:53know, a miracle worker.
19:55And the thing about things too, I'd like to say, John, is that sometimes God is so faithful
20:01to the faithful.
20:03So to those who are faithful to him, he is a healing God.
20:08We believe in the power of miracles and that God is able to do things.
20:13I've seen it.
20:14I had pain leave my body and be completely healed when I was 18, pain going up and down
20:21my legs.
20:22It was very painful.
20:23But these guys, they worship William Branham still.
20:29I would agree.
20:29Somebody sent me a video and somewhere I've got a link to it, but Paul Cain, right before
20:35he died, Paul Cain, who was very big in setting up the Kansas City Fellowship and International
20:41House of Prayer, Cain, before he died, was telling Chris Reed that we need to show the
20:47people who William Branham really was.
20:50And not many people know that Cain was a devout Branhamite till his death.
20:53And he was basically trying to pass his mantle on to Reed.
20:58And what these people have done, they have taken what William Branham called his message.
21:04And that's what, when you refer to the Branhamites, you usually call them, they're the people who
21:09are in the cult that is called the message.
21:10That's how they call themselves.
21:13William Branham's message was such that he was preaching the last dying message to a lost
21:20and dying world, and then the rapture would come.
21:24That was his theology.
21:25And he would often refer to this great event, which I've overturned in the archives of the
21:32newspapers.
21:33He said, this light shone down from heaven and this voice from heaven said, basically, this
21:39is my beloved prophet, hear ye hymn.
21:40He twisted the words of that passage from the Gospels and said, this is my prophet, I'm
21:47sending you, and he will have the last, he will have the last message as John the Baptist
21:53had the message before the first coming of Jesus Christ.
21:56So he's coming with this end of day's message, and people try to determine, well, what was
22:03that message?
22:04Because if you listen to the sermons, it's just a bunch of insane ramblings.
22:09And Branham himself was hospitalized several times for his mental health issues.
22:14So people try to, they try to take these sermons and they try to make sense of them and turn
22:21them into something, not knowing that they're so riddled with contradictions that one guy
22:25will go off this way, another guy will go this way.
22:28And entire movements, entire splinter groups and cults have developed from this.
22:34And what they're doing, in essence, Branham's message was that we need to come and perfect
22:40the bride, and if we perfect the bride, we will bring in the end of day's rapture.
22:46Well, when he died, that's no longer possible.
22:49So over time, that shifted into from end of day's rapture to end of day's revival, and
22:55we need an end of day's army for that revival.
22:59And that army must be perfected.
23:01That army must be brought into a condition where they are the spiritually elite.
23:06And the rest of that's history.
23:09You know what that developed into.
23:11John, I'm just, I'm so in shock.
23:13Like, how come no one's talking about this except you?
23:18This is staggering.
23:20So he was actually hospitalized for his mental health issues.
23:25And you're right.
23:26Like, I've heard this before, that his sermons sometimes were like ramblings.
23:31What, how does this propagate into these blistering lies about who this man is?
23:40And so that even pastors, apostles, prophets today think this was our predecessor leader.
23:49You know, and then I guess, I don't know if they actually called it Joel's army back
23:52in those days, but he was hospitalized for his mental health conditions.
23:56Do you know more about that, John?
23:58Like, what would they say was wrong with him?
24:01Branham himself talks about it.
24:03You can go to, anybody can go to the Colt headquarters.
24:07They have an application.
24:08You can go to table.branham.org and you can do these searches.
24:13He uses the word neurotic.
24:16Instead, we would say today he's psychotic or he has a mental health issue.
24:20He used the word neurotic.
24:21And he said that every seven years, his issue hit him, and then he tried to frame it such
24:28that this was a godly thing.
24:30He said, even the apostles of the Bible, they were all labeled as neurotics.
24:34He would say things like this.
24:36And I was doing some, just piecing together a timeline when I wrote my book, Preacher Behind
24:43the White Hoods.
24:44And I was just trying to line up what I knew from history and what was the actual history.
24:49And there came this point of time where I'm reading through the Jeffersonville Evening
24:54News, and there's this article, where's William Branham?
24:57What happened to him?
24:58And I'm reading through, I'm looking through the timeline.
25:02Well, this period doesn't exist in our recordings.
25:05They have completely erased an entire version of Branham's history.
25:09But then there's this version where he goes off the field and disappears.
25:13And all of these newspapers from all over are writing in.
25:16Where is he?
25:17And the newspapers contacted the family, and apparently he's okay.
25:22I'm told by men who were in the leadership that was close to him that that was his first
25:27time of being whisked out of the country into Mexico for having a complete nervous breakdown.
25:34Then he comes back, and he, this is about 1948 this happens.
25:38He comes back, the latter rain revival is in its height, and then he even mentions being
25:44hospitalized another time over this.
25:47But he says every seven years, this repeats.
25:49Every seven years I have, he's essentially describing a nervous breakdown.
25:53But without having a patient to examine and without having his medical history, we don't
25:58know what that was.
26:00That is fascinating.
26:01I mean, this is not discussed in my circles or people that bring up, you know, how much
26:06they admire William Branham.
26:08Oh, they want to be like him, raising people from the dead and doing all of this stuff, you
26:13know.
26:13But I mean, people are flawed.
26:17So you can give people room to be human.
26:21You know, like we're all flawed.
26:24We all have difficulties.
26:25But the problem is, is that William Branham has been so idolized that to this day, these
26:33true things about him are not truly understood or spoken.
26:37And it would be out and out fallacies, lies, organization riddled with sexual abuse, even
26:47child abuse, as you've described.
26:50These things would go on in these places.
26:53And like all of it, unless we understand our history, how do we know what's real?
26:58And I think that's the depression that I'm getting in the emails that I've been getting,
27:02John, like, wow, I read email after email, and they're telling me that they're so sad,
27:08they don't know what to believe anymore.
27:10That's because what we thought was real was actually so like a little leaven, leavens the
27:17whole loaf.
27:18So we've had a whole lot of leavening going on.
27:22And what I think that we need to get back to is that there's a real God.
27:28He's awesome.
27:29He is powerful.
27:30He has rules and regulations that are in the word of God, and he wants you to be as
27:36righteous as you can.
27:37But ultimately, we're all big failures, and our hearts are wicked and evil, but he came
27:43to redeem us, you know?
27:45And that's the basic gospel.
27:47And what you were saying, you weren't even taught that.
27:49It was so full of idolizing.
27:51Why did they idolize William Branham so much?
27:54Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of
27:59modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
28:05movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
28:07You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:15On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
28:21Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,
28:26and digital versions of each book.
28:29You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
28:35movements.
28:36If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
28:41Contribute button at the top.
28:42And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
28:47to or watching.
28:49On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
28:53Grant, Branham claimed that he was elected by God to be this end times messenger, and widely
29:01adopted throughout the movement.
29:03He's saying these things.
29:05He's saying that God told me, as John the Baptist was sent to forerun the first coming
29:09of Christ, you were sent to forerun the second, and that he had an angel from God that was with
29:15him on the platforms.
29:16Those two things were adopted by almost everyone in the latter reign movement.
29:21That's how he became the foremost leader.
29:23So if you accept those things, you have to accept that what he's teaching is what Branham
29:30called the spoken word.
29:31You have to accept that this spoken word is truly coming from God, and it is a continuation
29:38of the Bible for today.
29:40When they used the phrase, the spoken word, they were actually taking the word and making
29:47it equal to the written word or the Bible.
29:51And what happened is Branham is saying all of these things that are in complete contradiction
29:56to each other, but he gets famous specifically for his alleged seven prophecies of 1933.
30:04If you go to my website and just type in 1933 prophecies, you'll see that there are such contradictions
30:10in them that there's a minimum of 18 prophecies of 1933.
30:19They were supposed to have been buried in the cornerstone of my grandfather's church in the
30:22year 1933.
30:24So as I'm going through all this history and these archives, one of the things I did was I started going into the courthouse, and I made really good friends with the administrator
30:36of the records in the courthouse to the extent he would just let me walk in and he would say, hi, John.
30:42Help yourself, and I'd walk right into the record archives, and I was opening up documents, taking pictures.
30:59They're all on my website.
31:01And then I found the deed to the church, which was dated 1936.
31:07So he could not have even buried these things in the cornerstone for the building for land
31:13that he had not yet purchased to be my grandfather's church.
31:18But the story goes, as we were building this church, and there are photographs of this thing,
31:23this event, he says, as we were building this church, I buried these 1933 prophecies in here
31:30so that later all would know that God had spoken the truth.
31:34Well, when he died, and these prophecies had not been fulfilled, even though he was supposed to be alive whenever parts of them did,
31:43some guy who was a little bit nutty came while they were off to bury Branham in the grave, which is like two blocks away.
31:53He comes with a jackhammer, and he busts the thing up, and they find the cornerstone, they bring it out, and it's completely empty.
32:00Nothing was buried in it, and the point I'm driving at comes next.
32:05They sealed it back, and they put this concrete inset that said, dedicated in 1933, on the side of that building.
32:13So they post-dated the outside of the building to match what he said rather than the court record.
32:19Well, years later, some car hits this thing, and some guy tells my grandfather,
32:28well, this part of the building is exposed.
32:31We need to dig down and see what's in that cornerstone.
32:34We need to see those prophecies.
32:36And my grandfather pretended that it had not been exhumed the first time, and he said,
32:42yes, that's a good idea, and they dug it up a second time, and it was empty two times.
32:47So you can find a testimony actually on YouTube, this man saying,
32:50I was there when they dug it up the second time, and the angels of God come down.
32:55They would not let anybody see those prophecies.
32:59And my question at the time was, well, if he put them there, he put them there to preserve
33:04so we could see that what he said was true, why would the angels take it away?
33:09But that's the mentality that swept through the entire movement.
33:12Through cognitive dissonance, if he says these seven things and they don't match these other seven things,
33:18you'll read an article by Charisma or one of these magazines that's trying to prove a point.
33:23Will they choose which of the 18 that they want for their seven and say, this is our point?
33:28Wow, and a pattern to today.
33:31This is still happening.
33:34Different organizations will do crazy stuff like Bethel or whatever, and then they want to change it,
33:41that, you know, oh, no, and you know, oh, we're taking it out of the book,
33:44but they don't really take it out of the book what they've said.
33:46You know, just bait and switch nonstop, and AI is not going to help us moving forward.
33:51We have to actually land some truth in all of this.
33:54So those prophecies, those 1933 prophecies, John, are those the ones where he claims who he is?
34:01He's the end time prophet or were they something different?
34:07Here's the funny part.
34:08It wasn't until Branham started working with Jim Jones that the notion of seven prophecies was ever invented.
34:15His previous stage persona did not have seven prophecies in it.
34:20The very first mention that we have of this is around the year – I've got it on the website, I think it's 1952 or 53.
34:28And this is right as he's starting to pair up with Jim Jones, and Jones is being appointed to be leadership in this movement.
34:36Prior to this, it was basically the notion that his life story was enough to convince the masses that they needed to turn back to God and get this rapturing faith.
34:48In the years leading up to the shift in politics, after Franklin Delano Roosevelt was president, most of the white supremacists were strongly in the Republican Party.
35:00After Franklin Delano Roosevelt, they began to shift, and they started to change into becoming Democrat.
35:07The reason for this, they believed that the United States had been invaded by so-called false Jews.
35:13We're in Christian identity, we're the seed of Abraham, we're the descendants of the lost ten tribes of Israel.
35:20Well, the false Jews have now invaded.
35:23They're bringing in evolution, they're bringing in liquor, they've invaded our White House,
35:29they've taken over the government, and they started to proclaim that we, as a nation, were fallen because of this.
35:37And they started bringing in these rules.
35:39We need to be very hard-nosed and drive this thing out.
35:42That's part of the shift that created the rules.
35:44It was during this time, there was what's called the Great Sedition Trial of 1944.
35:52And during this trial, the notion was that certain individuals and organizations were shifting the mindset of the people such that it was creating an almost imminent sedition by all of the parties involved.
36:12William Branham mentions that he was almost arrested from the platform for speaking on preaching against Mussolini.
36:20And that was part of this sedition theory that was happening.
36:24They're saying Mussolini and Rome were starting to invade.
36:27That's coming into the United States.
36:30Well, Branham, when he says this, he says that he had prophesied against Mussolini.
36:36And it was never intended to be such a thing as seven prophecies.
36:41It was just this common thing that was being said.
36:44Well, over time, to dodge the question surrounding the Great Sedition Trial, he started to introduce the idea that it wasn't just that.
36:52There were seven things.
36:54And he invents seven alleged prophecies that happened.
36:58But what happens is he can't remember what it was that he invented.
37:02So in another version, in another stage persona, in another city, he starts saying, well, I had these seven prophecies.
37:09And he gives a different seven.
37:11Well, over time, this began to evolve and change based on the politics.
37:17Whenever it was believed that John F. Kennedy was going to rise to become president, Branham wanted to shift and change politics against Kennedy.
37:27And it was widely thought that the women's vote would push it towards Kennedy because he was attractive.
37:34So Branham started saying, and they will allow women to vote.
37:37That was one of my 1933 prophecies.
37:40So he's introducing new prophecies based on politics.
37:43So in the end, what happened with all of this, you have all of these strange conflicting histories.
37:50But you have men who were appointed in leadership positions that knew Branham was changing it.
37:58But they also knew why they was changing it.
38:01And he was changing it for an agenda, and they supported his agenda.
38:05So mentally, they have taken a break from what is true versus what we need to do to control the people.
38:13And that mindset of control has evolved into what we see today.
38:17Wow, that explains a lot.
38:20And that's how a lot of leeway is given to those who are, you know, involved in politics and Christianity.
38:28And politics is never going to, you know, solve everything.
38:32But yes, we want to vote as godly as we can.
38:38But I mean, who knows what is going on right now with all the Epstein stuff and all of that.
38:45You know what I mean?
38:46Like, we're just going, the world's gone crazy.
38:50You know, it's gone crazy.
38:52But it all started, you know, back with all of this.
38:57And the thing about this NAR movement that I relate to what William Branham did is he's quite egotistical.
39:05Who are the, what kind of personality does it take to actually go around prophesying that you're the one, when you are clearly not?
39:15Like, in the end, all of this is not true.
39:19And there was a lot of, you know, the latter day rain was about the imminent rapture.
39:26I think I told you already about like some thoughts about maybe it's 1982 because of the alignment of the stars.
39:34So, and all of this, we would just sit there going, yeah, mm-hmm, yeah, mm-hmm, okay, yeah, makes sense, makes sense.
39:41Oh, but, but you know what, by 1984, didn't make sense anymore.
39:44But we're okay because after all, this is, you know, God's anointed or whatever, right?
39:51You just look past it.
39:52And by then, by 1984, actually, she, Maureen Ghilardi was gone.
39:56So, but these, the similarity, John, that I'm seeing is narcissism on steroids with apostles or prophets or people that want to kind of proclaim that they, they're special.
40:09And, and now this whole NAR movement has set up this special apostolic anointing, this office of the apostle, which is every pastor needs an apostle to tell you what to do so you can tell the people what to do.
40:23And the people are now saying, and I've seen some excellent comments after the interview that we did.
40:29And the people are saying, we are fed right up.
40:32You are not going to tell us what to do.
40:34We're going to the word and the word alone.
40:37And that's maybe the best part and thing that's coming out of this.
40:40You know, and what's interesting, I've done studies with like Dr. Stephen Hassan on cults and narcissism.
40:47And almost every leader who becomes a cult leader has distinct, has tendencies of narcissism.
40:54But when you look at Branhamism and all the splinter groups that evolved, some of the leadership, I don't believe we're narcissists to begin with.
41:03But what they realized is if we can present the people this idea that we have the divine word of God or some angels on the platform with us, or we were sent for some divine purpose, that elevates us in status above the rank and file members.
41:20And then we can control what they do.
41:23It's not so much that they believe it or they're a narcissist to begin with.
41:27But over time, as they continue this idea, eventually the brain starts to catch on that I need to display these narcissistic tendencies.
41:36And they evolve into a narcissist.
41:39Wow, that makes so much sense.
41:41Like you, you are like the one that you hang out with and you get goodies from that.
41:47Wow, look at all the accolades we're getting because people think we have angels up here and there.
41:51They might be on the side going, well, I really love God, but I don't see angels.
41:56But boy, it kind of gives us a leg up if people think that we have angels and we're special.
42:03Look at all the things that are the good things that are coming our way.
42:07So, I'm just going to go along with it.
42:09And you begin saying these things, but it's this leader.
42:13And you said William Branham working with Jim Jones.
42:17Did they actually like associate at all or how did that work?
42:22I've been working with the Jonestown Institute for several years.
42:25When I found out that Jones was a member of Branham's cult.
42:30And I found it by accident because I'm reading through the Jonestown death tapes.
42:36I don't know if you've seen this.
42:38It's a terrible, it's horrific.
42:40You're reading through the last words of people as they're about to drink the suicide in Jonestown, Guyana.
42:46And there was a phrase that Jones mentioned off the top of my head.
42:49I can't remember it.
42:51But when I read that phrase, I thought, well, that sounds an awful lot like William Branham.
42:56That's Branhamism.
42:57And I started studying his recordings and his sermons, which you can find on the Jonestown Institute website.
43:03And I found this prayer line where this lady is coming up to him and saying, he says something to the effect,
43:10do you believe me to be Elijah?
43:12Or the lady said, you are Elijah the prophet.
43:15And I thought, well, that's Branhamism again.
43:18What am I finding here?
43:20We have gone so far.
43:21We have identified the letters from Joseph Mattson Bose, who was deeply connected to Branhamism,
43:28who was a Branham promoter from Chicago.
43:31Bose sent a letter to Branham introducing Jones and making the connection.
43:36Joseph Mattson Bose who held Branham's big Chicago campaigns, one of the only videos of Branham
43:43preaching that's available.
43:44He ordained Jones into the Independent Assemblies of God, which was a Branhamite slash Lateran
43:51organization.
43:52And they started forming these – I think they called them the Brotherhood Crusades, where
43:58William Branham was the headline speaker, Jones was the host pastor organizing them.
44:02And they did this in multiple states.
44:05So they were basically – as Branham was replacing Gordon Lindsay from Christ for the Nations as
44:11his campaign manager, it looks very much like they were grooming Jim Jones to be his replacement,
44:18which is really weird when you think about it.
44:21And Jones stayed with Branham long enough to discover that Branham was teaching the racist
44:25version of the serpent seed doctrine.
44:29And once he discovered this and he has a church filled with black people, he says, no,
44:34I'm done with you.
44:35And he leaves the whole thing.
44:37Oh, wow.
44:39So when you say that Branham was teaching the racist version, so to someone – a novice,
44:47a novice like me learning, what does that mean?
44:50Well, and it's multifaceted.
44:52It's very deceptive what Branham did.
44:55Christian identity, which we have strongly linked Branham to, believed that the British
45:02Isles and the Americas were descendants from the lost ten tribes of Israel, and that there
45:07was this notion of a false Jew, which I mentioned earlier.
45:10That all developed from the idea that Eve in the Garden of Eden mated with the serpent
45:17and produced Cain.
45:19And then the serpent and Eve's lineage developed into these false Jews.
45:25And the way that they did it, they believed that during the Great Flood, whenever the entire
45:32world was washed away and Noah and his children were in the ark, that through the lineage of
45:39Ham descended this race of people.
45:42And they started to claim that they were like mud people.
45:46They weren't real humans.
45:47They were subhumans.
45:48That was Christian identity and that was widespread, and it was very racist.
45:53So in 19 – I want to say the year was 1957 – there was an incident in Little Rock,
46:01Arkansas.
46:02William Branham's mentor, Roy Davis, the one who planted my grandfather's church, was
46:07organizing all of the protests against the Little Rock Nine, which were nine black children
46:13who wanted to go to public school.
46:16And they were strongly condemning the school system for allowing black people.
46:22It was at that point Branham introduced his – he called it serpent seed, but basically
46:27it was the Christian identity doctrine.
46:30Now what Branham did was he took away the words black and Jew from his doctrine and he got
46:36it to be widely accepted.
46:39And then later he followed up with this doctrine called the high breeding doctrine, wherein
46:44two races can't mix, and if they do, their offspring can't enter into the kingdom of heaven for
46:50fifteen generations.
46:51So the combination of those two was the racist version.
46:55Wow.
46:56I mean, I'm sickened.
46:58Like, this is the backstory.
47:02This is who Branham was.
47:05I guess a racist.
47:08Um, this is the reality.
47:12He was a fraud.
47:13He had mental health issues, clearly.
47:16I mean, you know, you do hope that if you're a great worldwide leader, I can understand burnout.
47:23Um, people go too hard and they don't take care of themselves.
47:27That's a human trait.
47:29Um, JT and I have to work on that, like making sure that we're having fun.
47:33I just got back from a week of fun so that I can, you know, and, and healing just, you
47:39know, like letting it all go, what we have to go through to be in this, this spiritual
47:45war that we're in.
47:47But the fact that that Branham was a deceptive, like literally deceptive, um, and all of these
47:57things and struggling.
47:59And this is what I think you're bringing to light.
48:01And I just want to thank you so much, John, because, um, if you weren't willing to do
48:07this, the, the fallacy continues.
48:09And then I would say the, the seed of deception is able to continue.
48:16What we're all waking up to is that, no, we're not down with a special apostles and people
48:22who think they're end time saviors.
48:24We've seen that happen.
48:25And no, we're actually, we believe that Jesus alone is our advocate to the father.
48:30We believe that the word of God is what we will rely on, not man's prophetic words.
48:35You know, this is shifting our culture.
48:38You're actually part of that, John.
48:40People love you on my podcast.
48:42They are really loving the information you're giving.
48:45It is foundational to understanding how we've, we've been misled.
48:50This is serious.
48:51And it's a lot to take in.
48:53Like I, so I grew up in this for 37 years.
48:57I was a racist, but I had no idea that I was.
49:01And I had black friends because I didn't know that I was supposed to be a racist.
49:05But to my black friends, I would, you know, I would openly tell them that they can't marry
49:09a white person, which is a racist idea, but that's what we were told.
49:14So I grew up with this ideology implanted and I've come to learn after all of this, after
49:21all of the research that I've done so far, this was actually a political cult.
49:26And I strongly disagree with the idea that Branham had any concern for religion whatsoever.
49:35It was more about the politics.
49:37He was trying, you said it was shocking to find out he's a racist.
49:42Well, he's working with the second in command of the 1915 Ku Klux Klan.
49:47That is the man who planted my grandfather's church.
49:50Whenever G.T.
49:51Haywood, who was a Pentecostal leader from Indiana, published the book Victim of the Flaming Sword,
49:59which became widely popular throughout Pentecostalism, G.T. Haywood being a black Pentecostal minister
50:05in Indiana, he made a change that started to impact the Pentecostal movement.
50:11Branham's mentor, Roy Davis, and the founder of the 1915 Ku Klux Klan, in response formed
50:18another organization that not many people have heard of, which is called the Knights of the
50:22Flaming Sword.
50:23And they were a more militant version of the Klan than the original Klan.
50:28They came into Indiana, G.T. Haywood's home state, and basically tried to rewrite the DNA
50:35of Pentecostalism with more militant, more racially charged rhetoric in the movement.
50:44So this began to spread, and people did not realize until it was too late that this was
50:48a racist ideology that was being presented.
50:51That's shocking.
50:52So, John, how is that different from the NAR movement being so involved with the seven
50:57mountains?
50:58Like, is that where this is kind of coming in?
51:01Because they're very involved politically.
51:04I think about, you know, someone I've really, you know, I would kind of laugh and enjoy some
51:10of his entertaining rants was a guy named Lance Wallnau.
51:15But he had this seven mountain doctrine that he would present wherever he went.
51:22And is it tied in somehow?
51:26I think that's our next podcast.
51:27We'll talk about the seven mountains.
51:29Okay.
51:30So, brief overview for people who want to whet their appetites with this.
51:35Branham's mentor, Roy Davis, and other leadership of the Klan created this organization, which
51:42was short-lived, called the Supreme Kingdom.
51:45And again, all these ideologies are starting to converge, and they need a militant force
51:52to stop it, but they're wanting to do it through religion.
51:56And so, they create this entity called the Supreme Kingdom, and they're wanting to reclaim
52:01the government.
52:02They're wanting to reclaim the family.
52:05They're wanting to reclaim the entertainment industry, and even start producing movies that
52:10are played in churches that are spreading ideology from the Klan.
52:14Every single mountain of the seven mountain mandate was in this as the prototype.
52:20Whenever that dissolved, what happened was, Davis started spreading it throughout his states
52:27in his campaign trail, and it got deeply embedded in Branhamism.
52:33And Branhamism spread it through the entire world through the latter rain.
52:37So, what was created by the Klan actually became Branhamism and evolved into the seven mountains.
52:43Oh, my word.
52:44My head's exploding right now.
52:46Okay.
52:47Well, John, that does need to be the topic.
52:51And to kind of dissect it down to, you know, how we've gotten here, and this big mishmash
53:00that's happening, and also the continuing saga of sin in the church, even with these people
53:11that teach such things, it's all a cycle.
53:15And I guess the devil doesn't change his spots is what it looks like.
53:19Well, and you have to understand, as a political cult and not a religious cult, this had nothing
53:23to do with God.
53:25So, for me, I no longer even ask the question, was it a demon, was it a sinful thing?
53:30The agenda was never really to be Christian or to convert converts to Christ.
53:35That's why the gospel wasn't preached in this for 37 years of my life.
53:39This was something else.
53:40This was an entirely different thing.
53:42And one of the phrases that I always go back to on almost every podcast, you can tell
53:49the tree by the fruit that it bears.
53:51If you look at what descended from Branimism all the way up to the NAR, you can see the
53:56mess that was created.
53:57And it starts with the tree.
53:59From Branimism flourished all of these different branches.
54:02And look how they're in politics today.
54:05And look how they were with Branimism, with the Klan.
54:08They are basically repeating every single thing that they did with the Klan.
54:12But they're modernizing it so that people aren't aware that this was a very racist ideology
54:17to begin with, and that their intent was to overthrow the government.
54:21Hmm.
54:22And I've, you know, in the last couple years, I've heard the nuggets of that with different
54:31people that I know, literally about overthrowing the government, like how, you know, and I
54:40guess there will be a lot to talk about because it's Jesus never came as a political movement.
54:46He came as the son of God to, to live, to die, to be raised from the dead for our sins.
54:53And this divergent thing, maybe that is just a, that can be a real trap.
55:01Well, Jesus said, my kingdom is not of this world.
55:03So if you're trying to reestablish the kingdom, that doesn't really work.
55:07Right.
55:08Well, thank you so much for doing this.
55:10There's so much more we could talk about, and I guess we'll save it for the next one.
55:13It's amazing.
55:14John, I appreciate all that you're doing.
55:16Please keep doing it.
55:17Don't be discouraged by some of the things that you face and attacks, because we're,
55:22we're bringing in an awareness and it's troubling, but it's awakening.
55:27And so I love it.
55:28Thank you, John.
55:29Well, thank you.
55:30If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
55:33You can find us at william-branham.org and lauralyn.tv.
55:38For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
55:43from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:52For more about the new apostolic reformation, you know, to be able to discover,
55:59you can find us at a page or two of the new apostolic revision.
56:01You can find us at the page on the website, and you can find us at the page on the page.
56:02We'll see you next time.
56:03We'll see you next time.
56:04We'll see you next time.
56:06We'll see you next time.
56:07Bye-bye.