Invisible Boundaries: Isolation and Obedience - Jed Hartley - Podcast Episode 332

Name: Invisible Boundaries: Isolation and Obedience - Jed Hartley - Podcast Episode 332
Uploaded: 2025-05-12T10:19:08+00:00
Duration: 1 h 41 s
Channel: William Branham Historical Research

William Branham Historical Research

5/12/2025

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Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
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John and Jed explore the complex issue of unspoken power dynamics in modern spiritual groups, focusing on how certain religious communities enforce unwritten rules to maintain control. They begin by reflecting on how seemingly small personal beliefs or doctrinal differences can lead to exclusion from leadership, even when those boundaries were never explicitly stated. Drawing from firsthand experiences within organizations like the International House of Prayer, they expose how doctrinal expectations are often concealed until someone crosses an invisible line—only then discovering the limits of what is permitted within the group.

As the conversation develops, they examine the psychological roots of these boundary systems and how they often stem from leaders confusing their personal impulses with divine instruction. John and Jed reflect on the dangers of non-denominational structures that lack accountability, allowing doctrines to shift arbitrarily and placing followers in unstable spiritual environments. They also draw connections to historical spiritual movements, modern charismatic expressions, and even popular worship practices that trace back to earlier mystical traditions. Throughout, they emphasize the importance of discernment and warn against communities that cultivate an “us versus them” mentality while obscuring their true beliefs.

00:00 Introduction
01:12 Defining Invisible Boundaries in Authoritarian Churches
03:00 Jed’s Experience at IHOP: Learning the Hard Way
07:02 The Unspoken Doctrines of “Non-Denominational” Churches
10:23 Public Shaming and Silent Excommunication
14:22 Doctrinal Gatekeeping and Eschatology at IHOP
17:30 How Cultic Groups Use Ambiguity as Control
20:08 Grave Soaking and Bethl’s Hidden Beliefs
24:01 Prophetic Politics and Power Struggles Behind the Scenes
27:04 Redrawing the Boundaries to Retain Control
30:39 The Fusion of Spiritualism and Christianity
34:05 Divination, Water Witching, and Abominations
36:01 Grave Soaking in Kentucky and Satirical Observations
39:00 The Golden Calf: How Fringe Beliefs Get Masked as Christian
42:14 Marrying Into a Cult: Deception Through Omission
45:40 Psychological Impact of Arbitrary Rules
50:42 How Cults Form From One Man’s Whim
54:03 Final Warnings and the Danger of Us-vs-Them Thinking
58:11 The Cult Spectrum and a Call for Healthy Boundaries

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00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords

00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:00:43And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.

00:00:51Jed, it's good to be back, and today, I'm a little excited for today's episode.

00:00:56I've never really talked much about this on my podcast.

00:00:59I know that my wife has, and Naomi Wright, who does a lot of the work that we do with support, she's talked about it.

00:01:06But boundaries is a big thing, and invisible boundaries is an even bigger thing when you think of a cult group.

00:01:14So you and I were talking beforehand, and we decided to head this direction.

00:01:18And I just got to say, I'm glad we are, because I don't think people realize how significant this is.

00:01:24Well, I think in a symbolic sense, we have talked around these things a lot, but we haven't spoken very specifically about these invisible boundaries, which is the whole point of, like, that's the reality of when you're in the cult communities, too, is that everybody talks around these things, but no one talks about them specifically within the church.

00:01:47So you can be a part of organizations where you're not even sure what the doctrine is of the community that you're a part of until you run into conflict with it.

00:02:03Absolutely. And one of the bigger problems, I don't know how it was with IHOPKC, but the more destructive that a group becomes, the line between what is boundaries and what is not boundaries gets really, really blurred.

00:02:18Right.

00:02:18To the extent that sometimes you don't know the boundaries exist until you cross them.

00:02:24Right, exactly.

00:02:25Either they're making them up on the fly, just pulling up, here's a rule out of my butt as they're preaching, or they watch you do it and say, well, they're doing something that I don't know if I agree with, so I'm going to stop it.

00:02:37And so what it creates is a culture where the children are a little bit scared to try things and learn.

00:02:43And I grew up in that culture, so I'm very familiar with it, but there's a lot of people who probably are in that same boat.

00:02:50But on the outside looking in, I don't think people realize how big of an issue this is.

00:02:56Totally. And to hone in very specifically on what we're kind of talking about when we say invisible boundaries,

00:03:05the first time I heard that phrase was a friend of mine, Matthew Harkey, who went to the International House of Prayer.

00:03:14He was a part of the school there, and that's where I met him.

00:03:19And then he has spoken up against a lot of the issues that he encountered that were some of the systemic issues at IHOP that didn't have to do with just the sexual abuse or the behind-the-scenes abuse that we've talked about,

00:03:39but more to deal with the actual structure of authority and how he found so much difficulty navigating that world as someone who was trying to learn the principles and learn the doctrine of the community

00:03:57and hitting all of these, and this is what he used the term for, is that he kept hitting these invisible boundaries where he was like,

00:04:05I didn't even know we believed this. I didn't know there was no option but to believe this within the community.

00:04:13And that's the thing that people aren't aware of, especially because these churches, most of these churches that we talk about are technically,

00:04:25they declare themselves to be non-denominational.

00:04:30So, I mean, they're in the, this is, I've talked with my girlfriend about this, where she gets confused sometimes,

00:04:39because she's not, she grew up, like, loosely associated with church, but isn't been very, like, introduced into the nuances of Christian denominational splits in the United States.

00:04:57And frankly, a lot of people, even who are within the different denominations within the United States, don't know about all these different splits.

00:05:06But, so she, she's been kind of, like, totally unaware of the world, and I will talk with her, and I'll be like, yeah, well, within the charismatic church,

00:05:15or within the Pentecostal church, or within the non-denominational church.

00:05:20And she was like, wait, are these all three separate things?

00:05:24Are these different denominations?

00:05:26And I had to be like, yeah, it's really confusing.

00:05:31And it, and with the non-denominational church, I think it's specifically meant to be confusing,

00:05:38where it's not about, I think I've said this before on this podcast, but, like, I used to think of non-denominational churches

00:05:48as trying to get away from denominationalism, where you have these factions within factions within factions,

00:05:57who, you know, if you don't believe this belief about this topic, then we're excommunicating you from this church,

00:06:06and you have to go find a different church.

00:06:10My naive belief about non-denominationalism was that they were kind of being like, if you love Jesus, we don't care.

00:06:19You know, like, as long as you love God, you love Jesus, you're accepted within this community.

00:06:26Spoiler alert, that's not what non-denominationalism is.

00:06:29If you go down to your local, like, non-denominational church, and you're like, I believe in, you know, universal salvation.

00:06:39I believe that everyone is saved through the grace of God.

00:06:43I don't believe in hell.

00:06:45I don't believe in, you know, these different things.

00:06:48You're going to find very quickly that that community does not agree with you, and maybe they might let you attend their church,

00:06:59but you are certainly not going to get a faculty position unless it's, like, you know, doing dishes for them or something like that.

00:07:07But you're not going to have any, you're not going to be the youth pastor, you're not going to be the youth pastor's assistant, you know,

00:07:14you're not going to be involved in any sort of power within that church if you don't have these list of beliefs that aren't explicit within the community,

00:07:25and you don't really know what they are until you run up, like you said, John, until you run up against them and you meet that boundary and you are, you know,

00:07:38let's say teaching or you're a part of some school and then you're like, I don't, you know, I don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture.

00:07:47I believe that some of, like, the book of Job was metaphorical and it didn't literally happen.

00:07:51And it was, you know, and it may be inspired by God, but it was a metaphorical text that probably was in a proto Abrahamic religion or something like, you know,

00:08:05which is a very, like, scholarly, like, that's a lot of people believe that.

00:08:09And if you espouse that belief while amongst this community, you would suddenly find yourself no longer preaching, no longer having any authority.

00:08:24And there's different ways that that can happen.

00:08:27Like, I've talked before about how the rug was pulled under me in IHOP because I questioned, I questioned biblical inerrancy and was like, not even that, like, it's all, not even a super liberal view of the Bible,

00:08:45but just a non-cut-and-dry biblical literalism of just being like, it doesn't make sense to me.

00:08:52Like, some of the gospels don't even, like, tell the exact same story in the exact same way.

00:08:58So, they have to be a little bit flawed.

00:09:00They have to be coming from the perspective of the people who are writing them.

00:09:04And, like, we have to, like, kind of understand and know when they may have gotten this fact wrong or that fact wrong or, you know, yeah, just questioning some of that.

00:09:15And the story that I've told before on this podcast, which I'll just retell quickly, is that I was a part of an organization that my father was the leader of, along with a man named Bob Frazier,

00:09:29and that I was, like, affiliated with the International House of Prayer, but it was called the Joseph Company, and they were having a side faction.

00:09:37And I had worked for years with the Joseph Company.

00:09:41My entire, like, childhood and my entire teenage years, like, I was making sure that that organization was running in ways that I could.

00:09:51Like, I did their video stuff.

00:09:53I did their live stream stuff.

00:09:55And, you know, of course, I was not getting paid near enough what I now know, looking back, like,

00:10:03I was getting paid pennies on the dollar for doing all of this equipment, now that I know how much of, like, a resource all of that stuff does.

00:10:10So I was basically volunteering to help this organization stay afloat.

00:10:16And I work for, like, five, six years for it.

00:10:21And then there's this program that they were doing where they were elevating the voices of young adults who are young leaders who are going to help influence the world.

00:10:30And I was supposed to get up and speak and share a little bit about my perspective.

00:10:39And I wasn't even doing a whole lot, but, like, I was going to be highlighted.

00:10:45And I go to this conference where this is happening, and I'm, like, sitting up front.

00:10:52And there's, like, three or four other young adults who Bob Frazier calls up, and he calls them up one by one.

00:11:01And I'm waiting for my name to be called, and he just never does it.

00:11:05And I'm sitting, like, off.

00:11:07It wasn't quite on stage, but I'm, like, sitting off to the side.

00:11:10It was clear that I was a part of this group, and I just never got called up.

00:11:15And it was super embarrassing for me because, like, people, I don't know if anybody else was thinking about it, but, like, you could have.

00:11:24You could have looked and been, like, what is going on?

00:11:27Why wasn't he let up?

00:11:28And it felt like a very public dressing down of something that I didn't even realize.

00:11:36I had no idea why that was happening.

00:11:38He had never confronted me about it.

00:11:40And then afterwards, I was, like, what happened?

00:11:44And he was, like, well, until I know that you are biblically sound, I can't give you my platform, which is just such an egotistical thing because it wasn't his platform.

00:11:56It was, like, it was, you know, several people had built that ministry, and it just was, like, it really, it was the last time.

00:12:07I think I've said this before, but it was the last time where I was, like, I am not trying to elevate my voice in this world.

00:12:13I'm not, this is not a place for me.

00:12:15Like, I got hit with this invisible boundary.

00:12:17And it wasn't even, you know, I wasn't even really saying anything radical or whatnot.

00:12:25And it wasn't, it was something different.

00:12:27Like, I had made a blog post about it.

00:12:30So, it wasn't even, like, I had shared this opinion publicly from the pulpit within the ministry.

00:12:35I had just said something different.

00:12:38And then I found out that he didn't even read the blog post.

00:12:41He had heard someone else tell him about the blog post.

00:12:44And so, like, when we were talking about it, he was, like, well, I haven't even really seen it.

00:12:49And it was just, like, oh, man.

00:12:50And I got hit with that invisible boundary of, like, okay, you can no longer have this voice in the community because you stepped outside of the specific boundary of this community where it was, like, that was never explicitly clear to me that that was a boundary.

00:13:08And I don't really understand why.

00:13:10And, like, can anyone challenge that boundary?

00:13:13And can I at least ask questions of why that's a boundary?

00:13:17And so, that happened with me.

00:13:20But, like, with Matthew Harkey, he was within IHOP.

00:13:23And, you know, to be fair, I totally, I do get, while, like, biblical inerrancy is, like, a more conventional boundary, I still don't really totally understand it and how people frame it.

00:13:37But, like, I get how that's, like, in the upper echelon of, like, a lot of churches have these sort of firm beliefs.

00:13:45And it's not, like, just my community.

00:13:49It's not, like, the, oh, playing piano or playing anything with stringed instruments.

00:13:56Or not piano.

00:13:57I forgot.

00:13:58Piano was fine in the Branham cults.

00:14:01It was just the exposed string instruments that were not allowed.

00:14:06But it wasn't, like, hyper-specific, you know, regional doctrines that I bounced up against.

00:14:15But with, like, Matthew Harkey and within the International House of Prayer, there was, like, very specific views of end times.

00:14:24Like, your eschatology had to be this very, very specific belief system.

00:14:32I don't actually even remember all of the, all of what the boundaries were.

00:14:38But, like, you know, one, I've talked about this before, but one of the boundaries was, like, pre-tribulation rapture versus post-tribulation.

00:14:47Like, if you believe that the Christians were going to be raptured before the tribulation, that was enough to be, like, excommunicated from the leadership in IHOP.

00:14:58Because, according to them, it was so apparent, and any reading of the Bible would lead you to the belief that, like, the tribulation happens and the Christians remain, and it's only after the tribulation, when Jesus returns, that they are raptured up.

00:15:15And it's such a pedantic and meaningless argument, but yet that is a boundary that could quite, existential, like, that could quite literally determine whether or not you are a part of this community that you have, or you're a part of the leadership of the community that you have spent years and years pouring your life into.

00:15:40And it's, I'm glad that we're talking about it specifically, because, like, it is really, really corrupt.

00:15:50There's no other way to, I, the system itself, I think a lot of people and a lot of churches will do this to some extent without realizing completely that they are doing it.

00:16:04But I think places like the International House of Prayer intentionally build up these boundaries so that they can have incredible control over everyone within their community, so that they get to be, they get to decide who is a part of this leadership, who is going to help direct the doctrines of the community.

00:16:30And I don't even know if it, it really is about the doctrines, most of the time, I think it's just about power, who's going to fall in line, and who's going to not, like, let's, let's have this, if John, you and I started our cult, and we were, we were putting out our doctrines, we would maybe put in a couple meaningless ones, just to, just to see who falls in line, and says, Oh, yeah, you're right.

00:16:54This is totally, God, God has said that, you know, something like, you're never to wear the color red on Tuesdays, you know, and we have one, you know, pastor in our community or something who says, No, I don't see that in the Bible.

00:17:12And it's like, great, we get to excommunicate him, not because he's wrong, but because he's not falling in line, and is not going to reinforce these boundaries of the community.

00:17:26You know, you mentioned the non-denominational groups, and it's interesting and fascinating both at the same time, because I get requests from all over the nation to investigate all of these different churches.

00:17:38People are writing me, and they're saying, Is this a cult? Is this a cult? And I can't do all of them, obviously, because they're just way too many. But the ones that I have looked at, each time that I look, 100% of them are non-denominational groups.

00:17:55Yeah.

00:17:55And so the people are in them, and they're suddenly scared, Is this a cult? Well, if you have those questions, you probably shouldn't be in the group in the first place, right?

00:18:03Yeah.

00:18:04But here's the interesting thing about it. Whenever a group like this forms, they form because there is some ideology that they see as a core tenet of their belief system that is ideologically different than all the denominations.

00:18:21Otherwise, you would just start a denominational church or join one, right? So they have some belief that is in conflict.

00:18:27But at the same time, I've been to some of these non-denominational churches. At the same time, you go into it, and you don't see it heavily advertised in their literature, their books, their sermons.

00:18:39They don't really explicitly say why we decided that we will sever ourselves from all the denominations.

00:18:45Right.

00:18:46And you kind of have to figure it out over time.

00:18:49And when you do, suddenly you feel a little bit uncomfortable, because why did they keep this from you?

00:18:57If they created this movement, and it's no longer part of a denomination, why didn't they tell you up front before you joined?

00:19:04Which is, ironically, one of the strong marks as, is this group a cult or not?

00:19:09Not saying that they're all cults, but in that one aspect, it is cultish. I'll say it like that.

00:19:16But what happens is, the more extreme of those groups, the ones that have become more destructive, they try to keep it even further secret.

00:19:27Because if they're into extremism, they don't want people to readily know their extremism, or nobody would join their church, and the money would stop flowing.

00:19:35So, then what happens is, those groups have to start policing the mind.

00:19:41They can't let the rank and file members let all of that information out.

00:19:45And at the same time, they can't let them critically think, or they would just suddenly leave.

00:19:50And even though they might not have met all the requirements of being a destructive cult, in that one aspect, they're really insidious.

00:19:59I'll use that.

00:20:00Yeah.

00:20:00They're insidious in the way that they do it. And again, I'm not saying that all denominational churches are this way, but out of every one that I've investigated that people have sent me, this is the case.

00:20:10You know, it's funny, because, like, it's, in politics, you'll see politicians who don't ever talk about their specific policies, that they, you're like, what is, what does this politician believe about this policy?

00:20:27And they will, you know, famously, it's a very politician-y thing, to wax about everything but the question that they were asked, you know, because they don't want to clarify what they actually believe.

00:20:39And I think sometimes pastors of these communities or leaders of these communities, also part of the reason that they're non-denominational is, one, if they explicitly stated their more radical beliefs, people wouldn't want to be a part of it.

00:20:59It would give, you know, foothold for people like me and you, who are critical of these communities, who are trying to, you know, address what's going on in these communities.

00:21:11It would give us a little foothold to criticize and bring attention.

00:21:16Like, a great example of this is grave soaking.

00:21:21So, the Bethel community, I don't know if people are, I don't know if we've ever talked about grave soaking.

00:21:29It's wild that we can be into our, whatever, 15th episode or however many we've done.

00:21:35And I don't know if maybe we have mentioned this before, but in the Bethel community, there is this unspoken sort of belief that you can absorb the energy and the anointing of the heroes of faith that have gone before you by going to their grave.

00:22:01And laying on their grave or touching their tombstone and absorbing the anointing of a Smith Wigglesworth.

00:22:11So, like, Sean Foyt, who was the kind of birthed from the Bethel movement and is a worship leader there, has, like, a bunch of different pictures and videos of him doing this.

00:22:23Like, he goes to Smith Wigglesworth's grave and is trying to, like, soak in the anointing of this, of Wigglesworth.

00:22:35And then Bill Johnson was, someone asked him about it, and he was on video talking about it.

00:22:48And he does this, like, political waxing where, or sort of, like, let me go this way and let me go that way, where he doesn't really address, like, no, I think that's, like, that's, like, dangerous belief.

00:23:10Or that is, like, new age mixing with Christianity and we shouldn't do those particular things.

00:23:19It's great to, like, ask for God to anoint you like he did with Smith Wigglesworth or whatever.

00:23:26Like, that's one thing.

00:23:27But going to the grave to, like, suck in the anointing is, like, a different level of, like, you know, he doesn't talk about the problematic nature of that.

00:23:35He's just like, oh, no, we don't, you know, we don't really teach that here.

00:23:39I don't even know if he explicitly states that they don't teach it there, but he kind of just is, like, nah, that's not a thing here.

00:23:46But, like, I was a part of that world, and I saw behind the scenes, and there is a lot of Bethel leadership who absolutely believe that and are absolutely doing that.

00:23:57I was there when Bob Jones died.

00:24:00I was at his funeral, and I was in the green room, which the fact that a funeral had a green room was really weird and bizarre.

00:24:10But I was, like, in the behind-the-scenes area, and there was, like, there was this very political war between different prophets who were trying to soak in the anointing of Bob Jones.

00:24:25And, like, who's going to get access to his, like, grave and burial site was, like, a thing.

00:24:32That was very much going on.

00:24:35And, like, I saw behind the scenes.

00:24:36I was there.

00:24:38People can be like, no, it doesn't exist.

00:24:40It 100% does.

00:24:41It 100% does.

00:24:43That's definitely what you're seeing behind the scenes.

00:24:46And if, like, I had spoken up and been like, this is creepy, we shouldn't try to, like, absorb the prophetic energy of Bob Jones, I would have gotten in trouble.

00:24:58I would have hit that invisible boundary.

00:25:02Because my dad was one of the person who was, like, really vying for that position.

00:25:08He wanted to be seen as the, like, new Bob Jones.

00:25:15And he started talking about how Bob Jones was coming to him in dreams and after this and all of that.

00:25:22And I remember kind of, I don't know if it was quite confronting my dad, but I remember having a conversation with him behind the scenes and being like, are you sure you want to be doing this?

00:25:32Like, is this smart to be, like, you don't have, your prophetic ministry is very different and distinct from Bob Jones.

00:25:41Do you even want to be like Bob Jones?

00:25:43And he was very dismissive during that time.

00:25:48And it just was, it was weird.

00:25:50But anyway, just like the politics, going back to the point that I was making, just like politicians don't want to state their specific policies because they don't want to give traction for the people who criticize them.

00:26:09There's, they, that's, so this, this sort of evasive technique.

00:26:14Another big reason is because they want to be able to change their, these boundaries.

00:26:22And this is a huge thing too.

00:26:24Like last week or two weeks ago, we talked about the stringed instruments and how stringed instruments were forbidden in the Branham cult that you were a part of in the message or the gear sect of the message.

00:26:40And, and then that rules kind of disappeared later because it, it was kind of baseless and, and, you know, people started liking the guitar and they were like, you know, there's many reasons why it probably dissolved.

00:26:57That stuff happens all the time in these non-denominational cult-like communities because the people who have created these boundaries no longer see these boundaries as advantageous for them.

00:27:11Like, like I, like I was talking about, we create, you know, the John and Jed cult that we created where we say people can only, you can't wear red on Tuesdays because we were just doing it to see whether or not people would fall in line.

00:27:26Well, then, uh-oh, both of us forget there's a Tuesday and we're wearing red because, you know, we're both wearing our chief's attire or something like that.

00:27:37And someone's like, wait, can't you not wear red on Tuesdays?

00:27:40And we're like, oh, no, no, no, no.

00:27:42The Lord spoke to us and that's no longer a thing anymore.

00:27:45You know, like we want to be able to change it because it's no longer advantageous for us and we will need to have different beliefs, systems.

00:27:53So part of this sort of invisible boundaries is because if you, if you have, if you have all the boundaries of your community well-defined, you can't easily realign them.

00:28:08You can't redraw the circle when someone with is within the circle that you want out or vice versa.

00:28:16Someone's outside of the circle that you want in, you know, there's not a way to, it's not malleable.

00:28:23It's like more set in stone.

00:28:26And that's, I saw this all the time within the community.

00:28:32I mean, honestly, I'm picking on Bethel a little bit.

00:28:37I guess I should just embrace the fact that I'm picking on Bethel a lot because they're a cult community and they do this.

00:28:44But Bethel does this all the time.

00:28:45Bethel has, you talk with someone at Bethel, they're not going to have any clue what the actual boundaries of their belief systems are.

00:28:55Bill Johnson, no one knows what he actually believes because they have, um, they have a lot of new age, a lot of like new age sort of culty, um, beliefs about like gemstones and about frequencies.

00:29:13And about, I mean, just a lot of the, like, you know, if I go to a, if I go to a psychic or a medium, um, here in Los Angeles and they're talking about astrology or they're talking about, um, gemstones that heal and stuff like that.

00:29:31It's going to line up with some of the things that like Bill Johnson and, um, um, you know, I don't like speaking ill of the dead, but Benny Johnson had this too.

00:29:42Like Benny Johnson explicitly was just like, uh, she just had all of her doctrine was super spiritualism.

00:29:51Um, spiritualism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, that a lot of people, I'm not even saying that I, I'm not even being specifically critical of those things.

00:30:01I mean, I think that you can infer that I am critical of those things, but like not even, there just are a lot of people who like, there's a lot of evangelical Christians who want no part of that.

00:30:13And it was never really explicitly stated because they would lose a lot of their support because if people were like, Hey, I think you're dipping into the cult, you know, people would, people would leave and funding would leave.

00:30:31And so instead Bethel is just this amalgamation of a lot of different woo sort of spiritual beliefs.

00:30:40And I mean, it, and it, and it fits really well with the sort of Toronto revival, you know, ladder reign belief systems about, um, fire tunnels and sozo and all of that sort of stuff.

00:30:54I mean, it merges really well behind the scenes, but of course you would never, ever have Bill Johnson give you a straight answer about that, which I think is, is, is not talked about enough of how that is a really deceptive and coercive, um, structure.

00:31:14Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:31:28You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's website, william-branham.org.

00:31:35On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:31:49You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:31:56If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.

00:32:02And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

00:32:09On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:32:14You know, we could probably do an entire podcast on just the spiritualism aspect.

00:32:19There's so much history there that people have no idea.

00:32:23We've, I've mentioned Roy Davis, which if you want to learn more about him, just go to my website.

00:32:27But this was not a good man who mentored William Branham.

00:32:32When he began his crusade to gather and create a cult in Jeffersonville, Indiana, which became the Branham Tabernacle and eventually my grandfather's church, he did so claiming to be a reformed spiritualist.

00:32:48And this man was not reformed of anything.

00:32:50He was bringing teenager across state lines for insidious purposes.

00:32:56I'll just say it like that.

00:32:57And there was the big scandal.

00:32:59He was arrested right off the platform of Jeffersonville.

00:33:02But during the revival at which he was arrested, he was claiming to be a reformed spiritualist.

00:33:07And he was exposing how the spiritualist operated.

00:33:11Because during that era, spiritualism was so highly popular in the United States.

00:33:17And we have evidence that strongly suggests that William Branham was going to spiritualist camps.

00:33:22And I think in one instance he even mentions it.

00:33:25But what happened is so weird.

00:33:27Because in the Lateran movement, he introduced spiritualism and called it Christianity, but then tried to separate it.

00:33:36And he put up these invisible walls, these boundaries.

00:33:40A lot of groups do this.

00:33:41They will say, they just don't understand.

00:33:45And what you don't realize is because of the word they, you're separating us from them.

00:33:50You're creating an invisible wall.

00:33:52But what's worse is you're doing the very thing that Christianity stands against.

00:33:58And so they introduced notions of divination and communicating with the dead, all of this stuff.

00:34:05And it was all part of spiritualism.

00:34:07They brought it into Lateran, and they made it mainstream.

00:34:13So it became mainstream in Lateran.

00:34:15Then that just kind of disseminated and went through the charismatic movement.

00:34:19Now it's reemerging in an even hyper-focused, vigilant-focused spiritualism in the NAR.

00:34:26But what's funny is the things that they do, if you just read the Old Testament, you realize that,

00:34:33wait a minute, these are abominations to God.

00:34:35Why are they doing this?

00:34:37And some of the things they do are outright blatant abominations.

00:34:42In the Branham organization, there were several men who, we called them water witches.

00:34:49And in Kentucky, this is a big thing.

00:34:51I don't know if you've ever heard of this.

00:34:52No.

00:34:53But apparently there's a lot of people in Kentucky that can do this.

00:34:57And they can take a stick, and they can walk in your yard.

00:35:01And as they're walking, the stick will take them to wherever there's water.

00:35:06Oh, okay.

00:35:07And they dig, and then there's a well.

00:35:08Yeah.

00:35:08This is divination.

00:35:10This is an abomination, according to the Old Testament.

00:35:13Sure.

00:35:13And they even call it a divining rod that they use to do this with.

00:35:18I know there are significant figures in the Branham organization who can do this.

00:35:22I have family members that can do this.

00:35:24I looked at it one day, and before I realized that this isn't quite right, I took a stick, and I tried to see if I had the quote-unquote gift.

00:35:33And I realized as I'm walking around making a fool of myself with a stick, I realized this is a bunch of hoodoo, man.

00:35:41This is not even real.

00:35:43Yeah.

00:35:43But I have heard stories of people, even some people in my family, who the well that their entire family lived off of for years, they found with one of these divining rods.

00:35:56So it's a thing.

00:35:57And also in this area, you talked about the grave soaking, I can ride a bike to Branham's Pyramid Tomb.

00:36:06I'm that close to it.

00:36:08And I can drive by, and I can watch these people who come, and they lay on it, and ooh, the power is coming.

00:36:14And I've mentioned this not to you, I think, but right across the river is Colonel Sanders' grave.

00:36:20So one of these days, I'm going to do an actual experiment where I go lay on it, and then go make fried chicken, and I'm going to buy some KFC, and I'm going to see which one is better.

00:36:31Did it work?

00:36:32Yeah, yeah.

00:36:33And not because I believe in this stuff, but it's a scientific experiment.

00:36:36Does it work?

00:36:38Can you, can you, that's hilarious.

00:36:40Yeah.

00:36:41The anointed with the spirit of Kentucky Fried Chicken.

00:36:44I, yeah.

00:36:47No, I, yeah, and I think that's where it, it is ridiculous.

00:36:52There are so many of these things that are just these, it's either ridiculous, or it's clearly of a different spiritual origin than, you know, Orthodox Christianity.

00:37:07Like, you know what I was thinking of when you were talking about that?

00:37:11Like, I was thinking of the story, and I hope that I'm not misinterpreting this biblical story, but I remember when Moses goes to, I think it's Mount Zion, but to get the Ten Commandments, you know,

00:37:33he is going to have this, like, spiritual experience with Yahweh, and back, Aaron is, like, leading the Israelite people, and they get, you know, they get discontent, and there's this sort of, like, we gotta, we gotta create this sort of spiritual practice, and they, they, he gets all of the gold together of the community, and they, they melt it down and create the giant golden calf.

00:38:02And I think if you, I don't know if this is the right biblical interpretation, but from a story perspective, that is kind of similar to, I think, what you will see with these sort of non-denominational Christian practices, is that you will see they adopt the doctrines,

00:38:23because, like, just as, like, the golden calf, it was very much a spiritual symbol of a very different religion in the, like, Semitic, you know, like, I can't remember which, which, like, whether it was the Canaanites, or, I can't remember which people group worshipped the golden calf, but, like, that was an idol of a different god.

00:38:46And you could see, I always thought that that was confusing, because it's like, you have these, the Israelites who have literally just been led out of Egypt and out of captivity, they've seen pillars of fire come down.

00:38:59And if you, you know, if you believe a literalist, that there actually was the, you know, seas partying and Moses walked through, I was always very confused, because it was like, why would you, why would you worship a different god?

00:39:14When you've seen all of these sort of clear demonstrations that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is real and is guiding you, like, why would you suddenly start worshipping this different idol?

00:39:30Um, but if it makes sense in this world, where, if you didn't realize that you were worshipping idols, like, people don't think of Sean Foyt as not a Christian, not worshipping different gods, but, like, he is absolutely influenced, at least heavily influenced by, um, spiritualism and, like, the occult and, like, the, the, the influences of a full different, you know, religious background.

00:39:59Um, and he's adapting this into his sort of world, and you could see places like Bethel creating their sort of metaphorical golden calves of these different idols of these different religions, and, you know, usually I don't like criticizing, um, Bethel or IHOP based off of, like, their doctrinal splits from, what, orthodox Christianity.

00:40:27Um, I'm much more rooted in, like, is what they're doing, like, deceptive, is it, I'm, I'm, I'm much more, like, into the practical, how are they treating people, and how is it abusing individuals, and not, like, are they straying from God, or not straying from God?

00:40:46Like, that's, that's not as much something that I'm wanting to discuss, so, but the point of what I'm saying here is, it's deceptive.

00:40:55And then that's what I think that I'm trying to make the point of, is, is that there are all these doctrines that are a part of these different sort of whole spiritual systems, not even different denominational systems.

00:41:07It's not that, like, they're going back to different Christian iterations, like, these are full, different, embracing, you know, um, sort of secular spiritualism, or, um, different, like, Celtic, um, roots of, like, um, uh, I keep forgetting.

00:41:28There's a specific word that I'm thinking of, but I can't remember what it is, but, um, you know, from entirely different non-Christian traditions, they're pulling these sort of beliefs, or, like, the, the divination, like you were saying, of using the stick to find the water.

00:41:44Like, that is found in different religious traditions, like, the roots of that come into, you know, whether that's, you know, Native American, um, traditions, or whatever, whatever led that sort of spiritual tradition, it wasn't, the roots of it is not Orthodox Christianity, it's in this whole different group.

00:42:05And they specifically do not talk about these beliefs, um, so that they are not criticized, so that you get into this community, and you don't realize what they're doing, and don't realize how fringe it is until you're in it, and you're already a part of, of the community.

00:42:25And by that time, if you criticize the community, or criticize those beliefs, well, then you're kicked out, you know?

00:42:32Um, it's like, um, you know, if you got married to someone, and you didn't realize they had these really weird, specific traditions, you know, um, or, or practices that they had, or that their family did these particular things, or believed these particular things, or you get married to someone, and they say their political beliefs are this way, and then you get to find out that it's, like, totally different fringe belief systems.

00:43:02But you're already married, so now you're in this really difficult situation of, like, this person who I married, this person who I committed myself to, is now showing parts of them that is fundamentally changes what I believe about them, and what I think about them.

00:43:19Like, it's a really deceptive and coercive practice, and that's absolutely what's happening in these churches, where they have all of these invisible boundaries, where you don't really realize what's going on, until it's kind of too late, until you're too absorbed in it.

00:43:33And I can speak very confidently about this, because as someone who grew up in this world, like, I saw the inner workings of these things, and it's not just the fringe people within those communities, it's the leaders of these communities that have these very, very fringe beliefs.

00:43:54And it is, and it is, it's sort of required amongst the leaders of the community to at least have some acceptance of those.

00:44:03And the irony of what you just mentioned, so the bull was worshipped in ancient Egypt, in Memphis, I think is where they were worshipping the bull.

00:44:13I can't remember the gods, I think it was Ptah, and it transitioned into some other gods, but it's fitting, because if you think about what's happening, they're leaving Egypt, and there's this question of whose god is more powerful.

00:44:28Is the god of Israel more powerful, or is the god of Egypt?

00:44:32And you find all these people who are breaking away, and they start worshipping the Egyptian god that we just left.

00:44:38If you think about what's happening in places like Bethel, so we left that type of divination and spiritualism, all this nonsense, they go into it, well, they're turning back, so for them, that is their golden calf.

00:44:52No, absolutely, I think that's, yeah, and they're thinking that it's an extension of God, rather than as something that's totally separate in, like, just even historical, you know, context.

00:45:08If you're, if you were talking from a, you know, scholarly perspective, it's like, no, the roots of this belief system are not, are not from the Orthodox Christianity and from this Christian tradition.

00:45:20It's from, it's the adoption of a total different religious belief from a total different religious system, and putting the mask of Christianity over it.

00:45:34Um, and so one last, you know, one big thing that I wanted to talk about, um, in this, um, subject matter, though, is I want to, I want to talk about the psychology of the psychological difference of, like, creating invisible boundaries and following invisible boundaries.

00:46:04And bring a distinction to these religious leaders who are creating some of these boundaries.

00:46:13So, a lot of these beliefs are either not found in the Bible at all, or they're very loosely found in the Bible, and it's more, you know, the Bible is used to doctrinally kind of underpin something.

00:46:32But, like, you know, if you're reading the Bible, and you are not, and there's no sort of discussion of, like, the Holy Spirit inspiring you, if you're just doing a straight reading of the Bible, you give it to ChatGBT or something like that, and, and some AI, you're like, hey, give me the different, like, biblical principles of just what is found.

00:46:56And here's, you know, even if you get all of the different translations of it, you are never, ever going to come up with, like, ChatGBT is never going to be, like, stringed instruments that are exposed, you know, and not the piano.

00:47:13But, like, these stringed instruments are banned because they are used by the devil.

00:47:21You're never going to find that from the Bible.

00:47:23Like, of course, that's just, like, you're never going to get from A to B there.

00:47:28Yet, it becomes a invisible boundary of the community.

00:47:36So, what happened, at some point, someone, whether it was Branham himself or, you know, it probably was Branham himself, he had, I can't, you know, I can only speculate why.

00:47:48But let's say he went to, he heard some music that, like, messed with him the wrong way, where he was like, oh, this is, this feels, I don't know, he saw, probably was rooted in racism of some sort.

00:48:08He saw a black man playing a guitar, and he was like, there feels something funny about this.

00:48:16And he's like, something, something clicks in his head where he says, this is wrong.

00:48:24There is an arrogance, and I've tried to, I've tried to explain this so many different times in so many different ways.

00:48:31But there is a genuinely pathological arrogance and delusional arrogance that is in the heads of the people like Branham and Mike Bickle and Bob Hartley, because they see, they feel something within them.

00:48:53And they believe wholeheartedly that it's God speaking to them in this instance.

00:48:59There's no check and balance of being like, oh, okay, well, is this something that I'm just making up?

00:49:05Like, you know, it's like if you got a scoop of ice cream, and you really didn't like the flavor of, like, artificial cherry flavoring, and then you were suddenly like, thus saith the Lord, cherry flavors are of the devil in general.

00:49:23And it's like, that's just something you didn't like.

00:49:25Just because you have, like, a negative reaction with this thing doesn't mean that God is coming and, like, telling you specifically that everything should be banned that has to do with this thing that you dislike.

00:49:39And yet, so many of the invisible boundaries that were created within these communities, and I saw this happen, a first-person perspective seeing this happen.

00:49:51It was just the whims of these men who believed that they had such a clear connection with God that any whim that they had, they thought without critical thinking, they thought, oh, this must be from God, and so therefore I'll put this.

00:50:08They pick up their Bible, and they have, they're reading about the end times, and then they get this sort of inspiration of, like, oh, what if it was like this?

00:50:18What if God did this?

00:50:20And not from this sort of rigor of, like, they're not going to a, they're not going to a, get their PhD, they're not doing, studying, and really going through the rigors of what it takes to make, you know, biblical conclusions and biblical interpretations.

00:50:38They just get, open their Bible, get struck with a whim, and then thus saith the Lord, it becomes the rule of the community.

00:50:45Uh, I don't know how people don't recognize how dangerous that is, and that's how you get cults.

00:50:55That's how you get, um, radical cults like the cult of, uh, like the, the Jim Jones cults, where Jim Jones is just an egomaniac, and he's in this world where you can keep creating these invisible boundaries, and you can keep pushing your community further, further, into, like, fringe territory, where all the world is.

00:51:15All of a sudden, everything that everyone believes within the community are just weird, whimsical things that you came up with about all of these different boundaries and rules.

00:51:25And there's no difference between the voice of God and the voice of your own inner monologue, and that's what happens.

00:51:34And I, I saw it happen.

00:51:36I saw it happen with Mike Bickle.

00:51:38I saw it happen with my dad.

00:51:39I saw it happen with Bob, uh, or, sorry, Bill Johnson, and this stuff, where it's just, like, there's no accountability.

00:51:49There's no re, you know, resources within the community to hold these men accountable because they're non-denominational.

00:52:00There's not, there's not a sort of, like, oh, hey, this falls outside of the, like, established doctrine of the community because there is no established doctrine of the community.

00:52:12It's all built off of the whims of these men.

00:52:14Um, and I want to fundamentally point out, or I want to point out that this is fundamentally different than those who follow it because there's a lot of followers who believe that they hear a doctrine that is espoused by someone who they believe is inspired by God.

00:52:31Um, I do think it's dangerous and it's naive because they should be holding these men accountable, but, like, at least they're not coming from this place of arrogance.

00:52:42Like, most people within the community of Bethel and IHOP are not going to just be, feel the freedom to come up with whatever beliefs they do.

00:52:52And they probably believe their leaders are doing some due diligence in these sort of belief systems that they do.

00:52:59Um, so I think that you can have, basically, this process that happens is that you can have these arrogant men who hear the echoes of their own voice and call it God and create doctrines that are so specific to their own whims and desires.

00:53:19And then you see this sort of, um, acceptance and adoption of those beliefs because of the authority structure that is established in these communities where the people within the community believe wholeheartedly that their leaders are doing due diligence.

00:53:41That they are reading their bibles, that they are working hard to come up with these doctrines and that it's not just coming up on a whim.

00:53:49And so then you have these, when people ask, like, how do people get absorbed in a cult?

00:53:54It, it's, this is part of that process, that slow boiling process of maybe when they got involved with the cult community, it wasn't as much of a cult community.

00:54:04And the boundaries of that community were much closer to the boundaries of a more orthodox, normal Christian community, but then it slowly, you know, shifted and like a frog in boiling water.

00:54:22Like it, uh, it, uh, it, it, it just slowly, the temperature got rose and rose and there was no sort of system to be like, Hey, we've gone too far.

00:54:35This is, there's no system to like tell people that the boundaries have now extended into the cult region.

00:54:43So when people are wondering how that happens, this is one of those ways.

00:54:47You know, he was talking about my grandfather and his guitar doctrine.

00:54:51And in today's world, everybody that I've told that story to, they're like, what, what was he thinking?

00:54:57What, what is this mess?

00:54:58What is this religion?

00:54:59Right.

00:54:59And that's today's world.

00:55:01But when you think about these crazy boundaries that are created, that are extra biblical, and in some cases, unbiblical, anti-biblical, what you realize is at the time, there were people that adopted it because culturally

00:55:17speaking for their era, they saw it as having some value and I've never understood the guitar

00:55:25doctrine.

00:55:25It doesn't make sense to me.

00:55:27I'm, you know, I'm a big fan of growing up.

00:55:30I was reading my Bible.

00:55:31I'm surprised that they weren't, but you find all kinds of stringed instruments in the Bible.

00:55:35Even David, David played the harp.

00:55:38David played the line, all of these instruments.

00:55:40So it's an anti-biblical doctrine that emerged, but it wasn't until I was watching the movie, Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?

00:55:49And the black guy who sold his soul to the devil to play the guitar, that was actually, not many people know this, that was based off of a real figure in American history.

00:55:59It was Tommy Johnson, I think that may have been the name that he used in the movie, but this is a real figure, he's a Delta Blues guitarist that allegedly sold his soul to the devil and the devil gave him his fancy guitar skills.

00:56:16So there was likely a time when everybody was going, Oh my gosh, you can sell your soul to the devil and he'll help you play guitar.

00:56:23So the irony of that is you have somebody who's saying something that is so nonsensical, but people believe it because he can play the guitar.

00:56:33I mean, the guy apparently was that good, but because he convinced people that he could do this and the devil helped him do it.

00:56:41Now you've got the other side who are saying, well, we're going to take it to the other extreme.

00:56:46And so they create that invisible boundary.

00:56:48Well, you can't play the guitar because the devil helped that guy play his guitar.

00:56:52So, you know, we could go on forever talking about this, but in the end for me, it just, it really comes down to this.

00:57:00If you're in a group that is creating an us versus them mentality, then they have created an invisible boundary in your head and you're trapped in a cult.

00:57:10Whether, you know, anybody who's writing me and they're asking, is my denomination is a cult?

00:57:15I usually don't even dig into them because I can usually just ask a few questions and yep, you're probably in a cult.

00:57:22Yeah.

00:57:23Because of their answers.

00:57:24And it always comes down to that root question.

00:57:26Is there an us versus them mentality?

00:57:29Is it you against all of the other Christians?

00:57:31Is it you against the world?

00:57:32Yeah.

00:57:33Or is your church trying to reach the world and make the world a better place?

00:57:36It really comes down to one or the other.

00:57:39So for me, that's, to sum it up, I would say don't be in a group that is us versus them.

00:57:45Yeah.

00:57:45Be in a group that is we.

00:57:46Well, yeah.

00:57:49And the danger of being in a group where you don't know the boundaries of and the belief systems of that group until you're in, you know.

00:57:59Because you can, just like those boundaries can change.

00:58:03People, I've talked with a lot of different people of the same where it's like, is this group a cult or is this group a cult?

00:58:09And it's, it's obviously not just like a clear line.

00:58:14Like there's a spectrum of cult beliefs and cult practices.

00:58:18And you can have a group that's boundaries are, have moved a little bit versus a group like the Jim Jones group where it's their boundaries have moved radically far away.

00:58:32Like obviously International House of Prayer and Bethel are not as extreme as some of those, you know, some of those cult groups.

00:58:41But it's still a cult because it's still moving those boundaries and isolating you from the rest of the sort of domain of Christianity and the doctrine of Christianity.

00:58:51And it's intentionally unclear what those boundaries are so that it's detached, so that it has mobility, so that it can be not brought back to places of accountability.

00:59:06And at some point, we probably should have an episode on healthy boundaries because there are boundaries that are healthy.

00:59:12So, yeah, we'll, we'll put that on the shelf for another day.

00:59:15Yeah.

00:59:16So, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

00:59:21You can find us at william-brannum.org.

00:59:23For more about the dark side of the NAR, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

00:59:30Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:46You can find us at william-brannum.

00:59:47You can find us at william-brannum.

00:59:48You can find us at william-brannum.

00:59:49You can find us at william-brannum.

00:59:50You can find us at william-brannum.