Authoritarianism in the Church: A Scientist EXPOSES the Charismatic Deception - With Tom Dooley -345 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John invites Tom to share his story about a decades-long spiritual journey shaped by personal tragedy, intellectual rigor, and firsthand encounters with authoritarian religious systems. Their discussion begins with Tom’s early experiences in a fundamentalist evangelical campus ministry that began with countercultural fervor but evolved into a rigid and controlling community. Tom reflects on how the group’s authoritarianism and anti-academic mindset drove him away, sparking his ongoing commitment to critical thinking, integrity, and a faith rooted in individual agency. He contrasts this experience with his later involvement in charismatic and New Apostolic circles, where a similar authoritarianism—combined with emotional manipulation—continued to erode spiritual authenticity.  As their conversation deepens, John and Tom expose the common roots between fundamentalist control and charismatic spectacle. Both recount disturbing parallels: how revival movements evolved into profit-driven enterprises, how emotional highs replaced genuine transformation, and how false leaders exploited followers through mind control, theatrics, and severed consciences. They critique the toxic blend of performance-based religion and spiritual elitism, which trains people to silence their own instincts and replace them with obedience to personalities on a stage. Ultimately, they call for a return to discernment, grounded faith, and service to the marginalized—urging those ensnared in controlling systems to seek wise counsel, think critically, and walk away from religious theater masquerading as truth.  Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K  Tom's Website: www.TomDooley.org  00:00 Introduction 01:47 Tom’s Background and Spiritual Journey 06:22 Authoritarianism in a Campus Ministry 10:04 The Jesus People, Shepherding, and Extremes 13:12 Elitism, Control, and Damaged Relationships 16:15 The Merger of Charismatic and Authoritarian Forces 17:59 Oklahoma’s Influence and Prosperity Models 20:42 Brandham, Entertainment, and Entrapment 24:04 Stagecraft and the Illusion of the Spirit 27:10 Reckoning in Leadership and Personal Integrity 30:08 Emotional Manipulation and Theatrics in Church 33:20 Private Jets, Platforms, and Ministry Ego 36:00 Severed Conscience vs. Ignorant Leadership 39:02 Gullibility and the Permission to Influence 42:25 Elitism, False Prophets, and Trump Predictions 44:01 Mind Control, Suppression, and Authentic Self 46:22 The Pseudo-Family Effect and Bandwidth Control 49:01 Prophetic Encounters and Calling Out Sin 50:57 Advice for Escaping Manipulative Systems 52:29 Ministering Outside the Spotlight 54:23 Discernment, Genuine People, and Rejecting the Show  ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org.

00:43And with me, I have my very special guest, Tom Dooley, scientist, believer, and on a journey

00:49of faith for 30 years.

00:51Tom, it's good to have you and talk about this journey of faith.

00:54We were discussing before we started recording, how do we introduce you?

00:59And you have a story to tell, so I decided that your way of summing it up is I'm on a

01:04journey is probably the best way to put it and just let it out there.

01:08But we were also talking about the reason for you coming.

01:12Usually, I have people on who they say I'm an escapee of this cult or that cult or the

01:18other cult or maybe some denomination they're disgruntled with.

01:22And I was talking to you right before we started.

01:25My favorite person to interview is somebody who has a polar opposite opinion of me, but

01:30I can talk to and I can learn from them.

01:32And they're nice about the way they present their opinion.

01:36So I'm bringing you in not knowing what your opinion is, but I saw you in the comic feeds

01:40and it was incredibly interesting what you were saying.

01:43So I thought I'm going to have you on and let's talk about your journey of faith.

01:47So maybe you could take a moment and just introduce yourself.

01:51Yeah.

01:51So I'm Tom Dooley and I live in Birmingham, Alabama.

01:56I'm married.

01:57I've got several kids.

02:00My youngest son passed away eight years ago.

02:02I've got eight grandchildren and I have a rather eclectic life.

02:08I'm a PhD scientist, former professor, business founder, entrepreneur, but I also have been

02:18very active in the faith realm, done a lot of travel in Asia, doing itinerant speaking,

02:27leadership training.

02:29I've spent a lot of time in India, some in China, Africa, Europe as well.

02:36So when I have free time away from being a scientist and a businessman, I'm very often

02:43on a plane traveling the world somewhere.

02:45But I guess the reason that I'm really on here is that I have watched a number of your

02:52interviews and especially like the ones with Bob Scott.

02:57So I have never met Bob Scott personally, but I really have found his fascinating.

03:04And the more that I listened, I went, yeah, I can tick a few of the same boxes.

03:09So that's why I'm here.

03:11But it's nice to meet you personally, even though it's via the airwaves, but glad to be

03:18on your show.

03:19It's good to meet you as well.

03:21And yeah, Bob Scott's an interesting character.

03:23He and I, it's funny how that whole podcast came to be.

03:27And he, I got wind of his book that he published.

03:30Obviously, that's what connected me between him and IHOP and all of my research.

03:35I wanted to know more about the Kansas City Fellowship and who better to go to than somebody

03:40who was there who isn't biased and in favor of IHOP, KC, all of that stuff in the NAR.

03:46But we got to talking and it was funny because you could tell the level of caution he had

03:52in saying things that were critically thinking, but yet wouldn't cause me to lambast him.

04:01And he didn't know me from Adam.

04:02He didn't know that my personality doesn't do this, right?

04:05But I was doing the same thing to him.

04:08And we were both just dancing around our thoughts, right?

04:11And he started, you know, opening up a little bit more and we got to talking.

04:17And we both came to the same point.

04:20There are many things that we like to critically think about that we could be totally wrong,

04:26totally off base, but it's an exploration.

04:29And to explore and understand and learn and grow, you have to make some mistakes.

04:34You have to go forward and just learn and make mistakes.

04:37And the funny part is people have been trained to be so uptight and in this little bottle

04:43that you can't think outside.

04:46It's a box.

04:46You can't think outside of this box.

04:48If you do, you're suddenly doomed to hell and everybody's going to,

04:52even in the main denomination, some of them will actually cut you off.

04:56I've actually experienced this in mainstream denominations.

04:59So there's some weirdness that happens there.

05:02And, you know, having escaped a cult, I'll say it feels cultish, but once you escape it

05:09and escape that mindset and you're free to think about it, it really opens up the door

05:14to a lot further research into what it is that you believe and why.

05:19Yes, yes.

05:21Well, I understand that notion of narrow, you're either inside of my box or you're outside of

05:28God's will paradigm.

05:29And I've experienced it in fundamentalist evangelical camps.

05:36I've experienced it in more Pentecostal NAR camps.

05:43I even experienced it to some extent in my childhood, raised Roman Catholic in a really

05:50large Roman Catholic family.

05:52And so I also experienced a sense of you're either in the club or you're out of God's

06:00will.

06:01And that happens, I think, denominational blinders cause people to fixate on what their, you know,

06:10primary positions are.

06:13And if you deviate from that, then you're, you know, you're moving aside.

06:17I had an experience back in the 1980s where my wife and I were involved in an evangelical

06:27campus ministry.

06:30And that campus ministry sort of grew out of the Jesus people movement of the late 60s,

06:35early 70s.

06:37And so it had a lot of free spirited ex-hippie, you know, people drawn into it.

06:46But they went from one ditch to the other.

06:48They basically became like Mennonite hippies.

06:50So they went from, you know, you know, just drug and sex and partying and frat parties into

06:57the other ditch, which was let's, let's, let's dress like we're, you know, German Anabaptists

07:05and let's, let's all break our food the same way.

07:10And, and there was a certain structure to it that was very immature, wherein the elders

07:16of that organization were all very young.

07:19They were like in their 20s, maybe the oldest elder was almost 30.

07:24So they're all very young people that lacked wisdom.

07:27You know, they lacked gray hair wisdom.

07:30And so, you know, they taught us a lot of good things, but it also got very authoritarian.

07:39And the individual had no agency there.

07:42You could not be an individual.

07:44And although it was a campus-based ministry, they were encouraging people to leave college,

07:52to leave without getting degrees, to leave without getting professions, because they had

07:56an end times globalist kind of view that, that it looked very much like, you know, Hal

08:03Lindsay's late great planet Earth, you know, that, that there was an urgency to it all.

08:09And this urgency is the most important thing in the world to do is to be an evangelist and

08:14see people saved and share gospel tracks.

08:17And that's more important than family.

08:20It's more important than anything else.

08:21And that urgency led to what I call a loss of individual agency.

08:28And one of the things I really like about your show is you're encouraging people, think for

08:32yourselves, examine it, go back and check it out.

08:36Be a good Berean for yourself.

08:39So towards the end of that season, so that was 70s to 80s, I decided, I made a decision

08:45because they had a one-size-fits-all box that they were trying to have all men plug into,

08:51that the gifts of the Spirit were defined as one gift.

08:54All men had to be teaching elders, period.

08:56That was it.

08:57And if you didn't aspire to be a teaching elder, then you were like, you were second class in

09:02that, in that movement.

09:03And I stood up and I said, I don't see that in the book of Ephesians.

09:07I don't see it in the book of 1 Corinthians.

09:10There's a diversity of gifts.

09:12The Spirit gives them freely.

09:14And I said, I'm leaving.

09:16I can't stay under this.

09:18I can't stay where I have no agency.

09:21And my gifting and my calling, which may be not that, you know, wasn't really honored and

09:27appreciated.

09:27And I literally had, I had one of the brothers there, I said, I said, hey, I'm leaving.

09:33And I just want to say, hey, let's stay in touch and have coffee.

09:36And I literally was told to my, you know, directly, you and I have nothing in common,

09:42but the weather, henceforth.

09:44And you are listening to the devil, you know, by leaving our sect, leaving our sort of cultic

09:52sect, you, and besides that, you're pursuing a PhD, which is also not good for one's mental

10:02health.

10:03And you're, you know, you're drinking from a bad fountain.

10:07And so this is, this notion of insularity to me is antithetical to the gospel.

10:15It's just not right.

10:17I would agree.

10:18And, you know, you mentioned so many things that are causing my researcher's brain to just

10:22spin in multiple directions.

10:24But I've been working with this guy that's helping me piece together what happened in

10:29the early years as the charismatic movement is starting to merge with the Jesus people

10:35movement and explode into the weirdness that it is today.

10:39And we have discovered, largely through him, but we have discovered that when the shepherding

10:46movement merged into the Jesus people movement, largely through people like Lonnie Frisbee, who

10:53was living in an apartment that was rented by, you know, the, uh, who was it?

10:59It was, uh, Derek Prince and, um, earn Baxter, who was William Branham's campaign manager was

11:04part of this mess.

11:06Well, after this, this weird thing happened, you had all of these hippies, free people,

11:12drug, sex, alcohol, live free, party hard.

11:15All of these people turned, like you said, polar opposite and the combination of shepherding

11:22versus all of the weirdness that they already had, it created something that was unusual.

11:28And you find it wasn't made, it wasn't probably mainstream among the movement, but you find

11:35that there were these little groups that started springing up where they were having adult spankings.

11:40They were having all kinds of things that you just, you scratch your head and think, what,

11:45what on earth is this mess, man?

11:46How did it come to this?

11:49And all of that was a result, you know, you, you judge a tree by the fruit that it bears,

11:55right?

11:56Well, you see the extremes that came from this mess and, you know, most of the people today,

12:01they just go straight to the NAR, point to the big figures.

12:05I honestly could care less about all of the big figures we see today.

12:08I'm more interested in examining the fruit that nobody's looking at, because there is

12:14so much weirdness out there that anybody who's in that type of movement, if they were just

12:19to look at the weirdness that it created, they would run screaming.

12:23What it led to some bad fruit.

12:26Number one, it caused people to de-emphasize what I'd call personal care, you know, soulish

12:33care, moving forward with life, with family, with jobs, with professions, and it, that sense

12:44of urgency that they brought about, that everything had to be a gospel track in the, in somebody's

12:49face, it, it, what it did was it, it, it drained people, personal agency in their life, and then

12:57it also caused people to have, I think, a, an elitist view of theology, that they were right,

13:06everybody else was wrong, you're in my box, or you're doing the devil's bidding, or something

13:13close to it.

13:14And I think that those two things were personally, while they're erroneous biblically, but I think

13:22they caused great harm, and that harm is still carrying on decades later, so in, in, in that

13:29particular group.

13:30That group happened to be also coincidentally anti-charismatic, so it was not a charismatic

13:36group, it was authoritarian, elder-led, where, you know, you, you know, if you wanted to make

13:46a decision about, do I continue in college, you had to kind of go to the elders and ask

13:51them to pray for you, and find out what, what the next six months of your life would be like.

13:57The other problem that it did was it damaged family relationships, because it, it, it de-emphasized

14:03the sense that you could trust one's own parents as a college kid, and that's not good, so it

14:10eroded confidence in parent-child relationships, which if I had a child in that organization

14:17today, I would, as a parent, I would, I wouldn't like it, I'd be really upset, because if I'm

14:23paying tuition for my kid to go to college, and they're being taken aside by this organization,

14:31and told, well, you can trust us, because we're really the ones following the Bible,

14:35and your parents aren't, and your parents aren't living in wisdom, you know, that's not a good

14:40thing, so I guess all that to say, you know, in that experience, that was a camp of life, I sent

14:48him on a journey, in that season of life, there was some good, there was some bad, there was

14:52admixture in it, it was a little, there's some good, I had some great relationships, I got my wife

14:57out of that, okay, I mean, I got married to a wonderful woman, we're still married, you know,

15:02been married 43 years, you know, that was great, but the theological side of it, not so good.

15:10You know, it's interesting that you put it that way, because you mentioned that it wasn't

15:15all charismatic, it was more authoritarian, that's the point that I'm trying to detangle and

15:21understand in this journey, and it's very difficult to do, because I use the method, you examine

15:29the tree by the fruits it bears, and if you see the charismatic fruit that it bore, you

15:33assume that it's a charismatic trunk, but there's this one little intersection in time, right

15:38after Branham died, when it felt like, at least from the research that I've seen, it feels

15:44like there's this weird tug of war between those who are going the charismatic direction,

15:49the prosperity gospel, word of faith, and the more authoritarian style, more rigid, fundamentalist,

15:56it's like there's this weird collision, and if you fast forward in time, that collision

16:01merges, so you have all of this in one big bundle of mass, the NAR is largely authoritarian,

16:09you know, but they have also the mixture of the charismatics, but if you go back in time,

16:13it wasn't always that way, so I'm trying to piece together what happened and why, and

16:19the best that I can tell is it looked like everybody was trying to figure out, out of all of these

16:25horses that are running the race, which one is going to make the most money, and so the

16:30one that makes the most money wins, right, and then as each movement starts to grow and blossom

16:38and start reeling in the bucks, well, they realized that there wasn't a clear winner, so

16:44let's all party together, and let's create these apostolic networks where we can, we can

16:49party with your money, and you can party with our money, and the congregants who are joining

16:53our conventions can give money to both of us, and we can drain them dry, and that's what

16:58appears to have happened.

16:59I have an embellishment on that, and the embellishment is, I blame Oklahoma.

17:04I think the money grub came from the oil wells of Oklahoma, and I'm not being derogatory of

17:13the state of Oklahoma, I'm a Kansan, so I grew up next door, but you can go down a laundry

17:21list of prosperity charlatans that were birthed out of Oklahoma, and the NAR then stole from

17:28their playbook, prosperity charlatan tactics, but, you know, there are a bunch of, you know,

17:34there's Copeland, and Hagen, and Roberts, and Benny Hinn, and Creflo Dollar, and Paula White,

17:40and Rod Parsley, and, you know, this, and then Daystart, you got this whole laundry list of

17:46prosperity charlatans who created a business model, and their business model was how to make

17:53money, all right?

17:55They were really good at that, and NAR said, okay, well, let's take the best practices from

18:02the Oklahoma crowd, and let's carry it over into Peter Wagner's school of thought, which

18:08was much more apostolic, prophetic-oriented than theirs was, so there's no lack of money

18:15grubbing out there amongst Pentecostals, charismatics, NAR.

18:21There are, it's a common denominator of them, but I will say this, I will disavow this, the

18:26group I was part of, there was no money, none of us had any money.

18:30We were all broke, everybody was poor, you know, everybody was young and poor, so, you

18:37know, our group was not motivated by money, we were motivated by get the gospel out.

18:42Yeah, that's funny, in the Branham cults, there weren't too many people who had a lot of money.

18:46See, interestingly, as these things go over time, the leadership drains the common folk

18:51dry, the rank-and-file members, and then the rank-and-file members get into leadership,

18:56so there's this weird cycle, right, where now the leadership are poor, and they need money,

19:01so they try to attract new members, and this cycle just goes and goes, but at the root of

19:07all of it, there seems to be money.

19:09But it's Amway, it's Amway is what it is, it's, you know, 99% of the money goes up the

19:16pyramid to the top two levels, the executive level and executive lieutenant level.

19:22Anybody below that level, no, you're paying into the system.

19:27If you're at the executive tier, and it doesn't have to be a single individual, the executive

19:31tier could be a plurality of people, and then one notch below them, you know, in German,

19:37they would call it an Obertsleutnant.

19:39It's the one level below the general, and so that level also, lieutenant colonel level,

19:45you can also make some money, but in general, it's the top dogs that are really good with

19:53the sweaty handkerchief and the microphone profits that get on TV, and then they're given

19:59false prophecies about, you know, if only, you know, 100, the Lord told me that 100 of

20:04100 of you listening tonight, we'll each write a check for $5,000, and, you know, and by the

20:10way, God takes credit cards.

20:12I've written a chapter on this in one of my books called Half Truths or Lies.

20:16The opening chapter is called Right on the Money, Right on the Money, and the whole thing

20:23is about prosperity charlatanism, which is run amok in Pentecostalism and the charismatic

20:29movement, and also in the elite levels of NAR, and I'm familiar with leaders of the

20:37NAR, I'm acquaintances of those folks, so.

20:39Yeah, the root of all of this mess, I think, is money.

20:43See, whenever Branham did what he did and brought the popularity of the, he was bringing in some

20:51of the spiritualist themes, the things that was more entertaining, he brought that to

20:55the gospel and then brought this to a huge platform of entertainment, and he's working

21:01directly with members of the Kardashian family.

21:04That's the funny part about all of this.

21:06So he creates this entertainment gospel.

21:07Everybody joins into it, and it is a money train that he has created, and all of these,

21:13everybody wants to join into the train.

21:14We want our money, too.

21:16Now, I will put a caveat to that.

21:19There were some people who joined in the revivals who legitimately were not after money.

21:24Their hearts were in the right place.

21:25They wanted to save souls, and they saw this as a new gospel, although they were somewhat

21:32manipulated to think that this was the original gospel, not a new gospel, but they saw it as

21:37different from what the denominations had, and it was being presented to the wide audience

21:43as though the denominations had grown cold and formal.

21:46Ours is new, just like it was in the days of Jesus, so join us.

21:50It's a new gospel.

21:52But then once they get in it, and they get on the train, it's really hard to get back

21:56off, and what do you do with that, right?

21:59You're in this system that is generating all kinds of revenue, and I think that there were

22:05many ministers who wanted out after they realized what it was.

22:08But how do you do this?

22:09How do you leave clean?

22:11Because when you do, the way that the authoritarian control worked, it trained the people that

22:18when you left this, you were actually leaving God.

22:21So if a minister left, his whole congregation is gone.

22:25His whole income, he loses everything that he had.

22:28I've talked to Branamite ministers who've left, and that's exactly the problem.

22:32As soon as they left, one guy said his congregation went down to like five people, I think, five

22:37or ten people.

22:38And so he's filling the church every Sunday, and he says, I'm going to stand up for the

22:43gospel.

22:43I'm not going to preach Branamism.

22:45If you want to go home and read that, whatever, that's fine.

22:48But in this church, I'm preaching only from the Bible.

22:51Most of his people left.

22:53And that's the way that this movement has created the mindset of the people.

22:56You know, it's not uncommon in our day, in sort of the Americanized gospel, to equate

23:06the concept of prospering equals dollars, equals blessing by God, and they don't understand

23:17the illusion of blessing.

23:19There's an illusion of blessing.

23:22You can be operating on a stage in front of thousands of people with a microphone in hand,

23:30and you can have this nice little music playing in the background that's hypnotic, and then

23:36you pull a Benny Hinn trick on the stage, and then it looks as if God's present because you've

23:44hypnotized the audience with the music and the choice of songs and the lighting and the

23:52smoke cloud and whatever else you've done, and then you go say bam to somebody and they fall

23:57down, you know, it's a circus act.

24:03It's a circus act.

24:04And one of the things that, and John, I was a little concerned about actually coming on here

24:09today.

24:10You know, I do a lot of media work.

24:12I've been doing media for years, radio, TV, whatnot.

24:16People ask me, you know, to be on shows and stuff, and I was a little reluctant today because

24:22I just felt like, you know, I'm just not going to hold back today.

24:26I just want to put it out there.

24:30Look, I'm getting older.

24:32You know, I'm a grandpa, and been there, done it, and I've contributed to the advancement of

24:38the kingdom of God in many aspects of my life.

24:41I still do, but I've had an awakening inside of me, maybe a fire in my belly that is, if you

24:51don't take out your own trash, somebody else is going to take it out for you, and I believe

24:57that I'm part of that, you know.

24:59If you don't want to voluntarily clean the garbage out of your own house, don't doubt

25:06someday somebody's going to come in there, and they're going to take all that trash out,

25:10and not only will they take the trash out, they might actually throw away something good.

25:15You might have had some collectibles that were actually valuable to the kingdom of God,

25:19and the problem I see in this last, you know, say 15 years, you know, it's been one big

25:27charismatic leader falling for either, you know, gold girls or glory.

25:33It's one of some, they fall, you know, and we've got this laundry list of, there are 20

25:38of those names now, 20 big headliners, they're on TV, they're on TBN, they're on Daystar,

25:46or whatever, and they just, they're falling like ducks in an arcade, right, just one after

25:51another, and the reason they're falling publicly is that they didn't have the courage to stand

25:58up in front of people and admit, this is my area of sin, and I need help.

26:04I'm a sinner, I need help.

26:06You know, you and I, we're kind of, you know, we're not on their level, we're not microphone

26:11profits, and we're not up there, but we also aren't beholden to their paycheck, and they get

26:17used to that paycheck, and the paycheck becomes the very limiting reason that they won't acknowledge

26:24their own sin, their own corruption, their own money grubbing, and because of that, other people

26:32have to expose them.

26:34And so we're in a season of reckoning, and frankly, I'm grateful for it.

26:38I'm really tired of every, you know, what is it, every two months, another big name falls,

26:46and then people call me and go, oh my gosh, did you see that so-and-so fell?

26:51John, I've also had, and this is something that bothers me, is that I have a prophetic gift.

26:59It's a well-known one.

27:00I've got one.

27:02Now, I'm not using it the way these guys are using it.

27:05It's documented, and from since 2000, whenever I get stuff in prophetic dreams, I write them

27:12down.

27:13I journal all of them.

27:15So I have the before evidence and the after evidence.

27:18I got the dream, what I told people, and then what came true.

27:22I've got it, right?

27:24So I'm not building a case after the fact.

27:27I'm not going up on a stage with an iPad where I've looked online for somebody where they

27:32live and what their street address is, but it's just genuine.

27:38So in my heart, my heart's cry has been, I want people to be genuine.

27:43I want integrity.

27:44I want honesty.

27:45And I want vulnerability.

27:47If somebody screws up, sins, deal with it.

27:51Deal with it.

27:52So I think it's time for the house to be cleaned up.

27:56And frankly, it's probably the reason I'm on your show today is I like the fact that

28:01you're helping clean the house.

28:03You brought a broom in, and you're saying, let's sweep some of the junk out.

28:07Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

28:12modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe

28:17movements into the new apostolic reformation?

28:20You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

28:25william-branham.org.

28:28On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

28:33Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio,

28:40and digital versions of each book.

28:42You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

28:47movements.

28:48If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute

28:54button at the top.

28:55And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're

29:00listening to or watching.

29:01On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

29:07Everything that you said is resonating.

29:08Like I'm, my mind is going a million directions.

29:11One of the things that really bothers me, as a person who was close to my grandfather, who

29:20was the pastor, and anybody who is in that position, if you see the side of the people

29:27who aren't the rank and file members, it's a different experience, a totally different

29:33experience.

29:33You can watch the things that are said and watch the way it sways the audience.

29:39And the feeling, the entertainment, the, it goes towards the emotion.

29:44You get caught up in this emotion.

29:46You mistakenly think that the emotion that you're experiencing is the Spirit of God, because

29:52I'm experiencing this emotion while I'm in a church or while I'm saying Jesus, etc.

29:56But yet at the same time, I'm, I'm a musician and you can do the same thing with music.

30:02You can get people excited.

30:04You can build up their emotion and you can tear it down.

30:08You can build up, you can tear down.

30:09It's, it's that way.

30:11And after you start to notice the patterns of how a minister will build everybody up in

30:18the beginning, get them all excited, comfortable, tear them down to the ground, and then at the

30:24end, build them back up is this, there's this cycle, there's this pattern that happens in

30:28these sermons.

30:30And I, I take a lot of flack whenever I research people like Wember, who really capitalized on

30:37the emotions and the feelings.

30:38But see, I experienced the other side of this, not what the, what the rank and file members

30:44experience.

30:44I watch how the people can generate that emotion.

30:48And here's the thing that I have found that bothers me.

30:51If you're on that side of it, you, and you know how it works, you also realize as you're

30:57doing it, that it is a generated emotion, but you make the disconnect.

31:01You start to see it as a holy thing.

31:04They don't understand that I'm toying with their emotions, but I'm doing it for a greater

31:08purpose.

31:09Therefore, I must be doing God's work.

31:12That's again, tied to that notion of the illusion of blessing, the illusion of the anointing.

31:19You can manipulate it.

31:21You know, a lot of, I've been involved in a fair chapter of my life in what we would

31:28term as mega churches or large seeker friendly churches.

31:32I've probably been part of that 10 plus years of my life and everything's scripted down to

31:39fast song, slow song, to the second, say this, have this emotive image up on the board,

31:47have this emotive, you know, one minute video clip of somebody who just suffered some trauma.

31:54And then you have the fundraising pitch or whatever.

31:57Been there, done it, seen it.

31:58It's, it's part of theatrics.

32:00It's, it's, and you know, the Bible calls people like this hypocrites, the word hypocrite,

32:06an actor.

32:06We have a lot of actors that are up on stage running churches and organizations.

32:14And frankly, it's disillusioning when you see it.

32:18I'll give you one example of how sick this is.

32:21I'm on a private jet.

32:23I'm going to India for a crusade meeting in India, private jet ride.

32:28And he so-called evangelist is there.

32:32And I overheard the evangelist on there saying, I want you to know something.

32:37Benny has called me up and said, he'd give me a check for $600,000.

32:42If I would organize a conference for him, one of his meetings with hundreds of thousands

32:50of people in Mumbai, in India, if I would host it on one condition, he's the headliner and

32:56I'm the subordinate on the, on the marquee.

33:00And this guy got furious.

33:02No way are you going to buy me, Benny Hinn, for $600,000, the greatest evangelist in all

33:10of Asia.

33:11I'm the greatest of all of them.

33:14This is how sick this stuff is.

33:16It's, it's showmanship.

33:18It's, it's buying positions on stages and, and, uh, been there, you know, I've seen it.

33:25And, and I'm, I'm frankly so tired of it.

33:28I'm just playing out.

33:29I'm joining my heart with the young generation that says, if it ain't genuine, I don't want

33:34it.

33:34If it isn't, I want them to, I want people who have the fruit of the spirit dwelling in them,

33:43love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and self-control.

33:50And I want them to be paramount and evident in their lives.

33:53Just like I wanted in mine.

33:55Now, honestly, I'm a poor excuse for all of those.

33:59All right.

34:00I'm not perfect on them, striving, moving in the right direction.

34:04But I want people to be genuine and I want people to quit believing the baloney that they've

34:11been fed by these prosperity charlatans that are, they, they're ripping people off just

34:19out of their own narcissistic tendency.

34:22They want to be famous.

34:23They want to be special.

34:24And, you know, I'm acquainted with some of them.

34:28I know some of them.

34:30Some of them have endorsed my books.

34:33Okay.

34:33So, you know, I'm just, I'm just aware of it.

34:38There's a guy out there though.

34:40I don't know if you've read a book by David Ravenhill called Surviving the Anointing.

34:46His father was Leonard Ravenhill.

34:49Really good book.

34:50And David Ravenhill, basically his whole thesis is that you've never been tested until you've

34:57been given a microphone in glory.

35:00And, and it's a really good book.

35:03It's a good book.

35:04No, I haven't.

35:05I'll have to check it out.

35:06But everything you're saying is just resonating.

35:09You know, part of the reason I do what I do is I hate to see people be duped.

35:14And when you're on the side of the people who are doing the duping, it really makes you

35:20feel awful.

35:20And I don't know how a person can do that.

35:23I don't, I don't know how anybody who has studied the things that I have published can

35:29continue what they're doing because they know the faults with it.

35:32They know these things are wrong.

35:33And yet many of these people who are, I mean, some of them were child predators and they're

35:38dubbed God's generals.

35:39How do you go forward with this?

35:40How do you continue in that lifestyle?

35:42Well, but these people, what I've learned is there are people who are in leadership who

35:49have severed consciences.

35:51They simply don't care.

35:53And what's interesting about that is you would think because this was a money train, you would

35:58think that all of it ties back to money.

36:01And some of the people are just, they don't care.

36:03Their conscience is severed because they're making money.

36:06But that's not the case with all of them.

36:08I don't know if it's because of recognition or power or what comes with it, but there's

36:13a reason why these people continue to do what they do.

36:16Knowingly faults some of the things that they're doing.

36:20But then on the flip side, I have compassion for people who are in the leadership who are

36:27unaware.

36:28There are people who are just, they're creating just as many victims as the ones who do know,

36:35but they have no idea that they're in this false system.

36:39And I have compassion for those.

36:40But what do you do with that?

36:42Because on one side, you have people who are being victimized by people who knowingly are

36:46victimizing them.

36:47And on the other side, you have the same level of victims.

36:51When those victims escape, they see the person who they were under, their leadership or their

36:57pastor or whatever, they see them as just as evil as the other side.

37:01And yet I see victims on all sides.

37:04One of the guidance tools I'm using, and this is, somebody could write this down, they find

37:10themselves in that spot.

37:13And it's this, be very careful of who you permit to influence.

37:18It's simple.

37:20Analyze and think about who do you permit to influence you?

37:25And I have looked back and reviewed, again, it's like, weigh the fruit out of it, you know?

37:31I've had seasons on my faith journey where, you know, I've been in that group in the 70s

37:37and the 80s that was kind of very authoritarian fundamentalist.

37:41I then was sort of in a evangelical, sort of pro-charismatic environment for a season, an

37:49NAR season.

37:52Now I'm analyzing all of them and I'm weighing the fruit of each season.

37:55And I'm looking back on them, right?

37:58And I'm going, you know what?

37:59I really don't see a lot of good fruit out of a lot of it.

38:05I just don't.

38:07And it's one of the things that's happening.

38:10You know, the billion Catholics who are happy today because there's a new photo today as

38:15we're doing this recording.

38:18You know, there are a billion Catholics, billion plus Catholics out there.

38:22And one of their philosophies is that they're centered in tradition because they're very slow

38:32and steady to change anything.

38:34Very, very slow and steady.

38:36Well, the Pentecostals are the exact opposite of that.

38:39Change everything as fast as you can.

38:41You know, if it ain't broke, fix it and do it right now.

38:46So in the NAR movement, it's, you know, there's a breakthrough today.

38:50There's a, you know, oh boy, there's stars are aligning before, you know, golly, we've

38:56got, you know, these clouds in the sky that this is a sign, you know, and it's, and everything

39:01that's in shifts in a dime instantly.

39:04And there are theological implications of that in the NAR because it feeds into a lot of gullible

39:11people that there are a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of gullible people that are tied into

39:18the charismatic slash NAR Pentecostal world.

39:26And again, I'm not trying to parse them.

39:28I'm sort of bundling them up, but there's a high degree of gullibility.

39:32There's a high degree of trust and they need to sit back, raise their hand and say, why

39:36did I permit that pastor?

39:38Why did I permit that elder?

39:40Why did I permit that so-called prophet on the stage?

39:43Why did I permit that person on TV to influence me?

39:48And I'm asking for people to wake up, grow up, be an adult, put on your own pants and your

39:55own boots, rise up and say, you know what?

40:00They don't have a right to speak into my life.

40:03They just don't.

40:04I've permitted them.

40:05I've granted them that privilege.

40:07They don't have a divine right to it.

40:09They don't.

40:12And frankly, you can, if you feel so led to kind of push back, then go find a group of

40:20other genuine truth seekers out there, like John, and start asking questions about why,

40:27why do I believe this?

40:28Why have I been practicing this?

40:30And you're going to find that when you review your history, you know, I go back to my Catholic

40:35days as a farm boy in Kansas, and I can see good and bad in what I, my theology.

40:42I can go to that next chapter of life.

40:44I can see good and bad.

40:46I can go to the next, and I can analyze those.

40:48And really the goal then is eat the chicken, spit out the bones.

40:52But the problem with a lot of this modern day Pentecostal money-driven stage performing

40:59microphone profit stuff is that like you, I've heard you say, man, the water was so filthy.

41:07I didn't think there was anything redemptive left in the bathtub.

41:11You know, it was so muddy.

41:13Now, I'm, I'm a, I'm an advocate for people hearing and experiencing promptings of the

41:21spirit, the prophetic of the spirit in their lives.

41:24I'm, I'm an advocate for it, but I'm not an advocate for all of this other nonsense they're

41:31doing.

41:31And frankly, I'm a critic of the very thing that I do.

41:36I'm a critic of it.

41:38That's why I, that's why I'm very careful.

41:40I write things down.

41:41I record it.

41:43I tell people.

41:44And if I'm wrong, then I fess up to it.

41:47So I think we need more scrutiny in that.

41:50It's not just, we need discernment.

41:53Frankly, I just think that a lot of these guys have been raised in that old Oklahoma money

41:59grubbing stage performance mentality.

42:02And now it's bled over into the C. Peter Wagner school and, you know, that, that whole group.

42:09Look, I know Chuck Pierce.

42:10I know Judge Sheets.

42:12I know a bunch of these people, right?

42:14I know them.

42:15There's some good in them.

42:16There's some not so good in them.

42:18But I can tell you one thing I don't like is I don't, I really don't appreciate the elitist

42:23authoritarianism that's there.

42:25That we've got it right.

42:27We, we've got a corner on the word of God.

42:29It's we're the prophets hearing from God.

42:32We're, we're hearing.

42:34We're hearing who the next president's going to be and you need to listen to us.

42:37And I'll tell you, it really irritated me immensely.

42:41If you go back in time a few years ago, when it was round two for Donald Trump, Donald Trump.

42:48Oh, the, all the prophets, all the, the, the predictive prophets, they were all out there

42:53and they're into secondhand smoke.

42:56The first one says, Oh, Trump's for sure going to get in in that prior cycle.

43:00Oh, he's in and secondhand smoke.

43:03They all start saying it before long, the entire cadre all said Trump is going to be

43:09elected directly into a second term.

43:11Trump, Trump, Trump.

43:12This is the way it's going to go.

43:13And I'm telling you, John, it burned me up inside because I went, no, this is secondhand

43:19smoke.

43:20This is not true.

43:22And, but who would listen to me?

43:24Nobody.

43:25They don't care.

43:26They don't care because they don't want somebody to discern it.

43:29They don't want, they don't want, they don't want another voice challenging that.

43:35So that's some of the stuff that I've been through in recent days that has really, you

43:40know, gotten under my skin and kind of opened me up to say, Hey, I'm going to throw my name

43:46in the hat too.

43:46I'm, I'm tired of the, I'm tired of it.

43:49You know, you made a point that Bob Scott likes to make.

43:52It's not on just the leadership, although all of this does make you angry.

43:56Like you said, but there is a responsibility on the people who are joining into these leaders.

44:03He, he's brought that out several times in his podcast.

44:06And I want to make sure that I emphasize that because what I heard you say really resonated.

44:11There comes a point in time in everybody's life, whether you're a victim, whether you're

44:16under the mind control of the cult, whatever it is.

44:19I have a strong feeling that some of the larger movements have with this authoritarian component

44:26have a level of mind control.

44:29And when people escape that, they say, Oh, I was blinded.

44:31And I was under this thing that I didn't know who I was or what I was.

44:35And I left it, but I was under the same thing.

44:38And I was, I was born and raised under the same thing.

44:43So from birth, I was told that if this man said the sky is green, my eyes must not be

44:48able to see the blue.

44:49That's the way it works.

44:51However, there comes a point in everybody's life.

44:55Whenever you're in that type of system, when that burning question starts to hit you and

45:00you start to think, well, what is this?

45:03Is this real?

45:04Do I really, are my eyes really messed up and I can't see the green skies?

45:09Is it really blue?

45:10And you start to go through that, but you have to make a conscious decision to suppress

45:14it.

45:15And I, I strongly feel that even if, even the people who are in cults who are under the

45:20mind control, there's a point in Dr. Hassan, Dr. Stephen Hassan mentions this in his book.

45:26There's a cult identity that suppresses your authentic self.

45:29However, your authentic self does surface whenever your guards go down, when your cult

45:35guards go down.

45:36I've experienced that whenever I was in the cult, my guards went down.

45:40I started feeling my authentic self and realizing that something just doesn't feel right, but

45:45then you actively, consciously suppress it.

45:49So I feel that there is a responsibility on the people who are in these type of systems

45:53to wake up and just critically think, ask some questions, you know.

45:57However, I understand that there's that fear of asking questions because that's another

46:03component that they have introduced into the whole movement.

46:06You can't ask questions.

46:08If you do, you're actually questioning God, my brother and my sister.

46:12You're doing the devil's work when you do this.

46:16And for that, that really, like you said, that angers me.

46:19The issue that I think was attractive, where am I culpable even in my past?

46:26Well, number one, I have a teachable spirit, which means I'm open.

46:31I'm open to suggestion.

46:33I'm open to leadership.

46:34I'm opening myself up, right?

46:36So I'm not putting up a fierce brick wall up front.

46:39I'm willing to be led.

46:42But I also found that the pseudo family that is developed in a passionate Christian community

46:55can override that conscious mind because you want to be accepted.

47:02You want to be loved.

47:03You want to be appreciated.

47:05So there's a desire, there's a searching for significance that's found in those relationships

47:11that can cause you to suppress the and overrule, abrogate some of those other things that,

47:19you know, just aren't right.

47:20Like, I really shouldn't, I shouldn't listen to what this elder teacher, pastor, prophet,

47:27apostle is saying.

47:28I shouldn't listen to them.

47:30But I also enjoy the community I'm in, and I don't want to rock the boat.

47:33So there's that social dynamic that keeps you in it.

47:38The group that I was, that I started out this journey describing was one that was based on

47:44college kids age, you know, 18 to young 20s.

47:48They're away from their family at home.

47:51They create like a pseudo family, a new family that is spiritually passionate, loving, you eat

47:57meals together.

47:58And what they did was that they controlled the bandwidth of your life.

48:02You had no free time.

48:03You might've been a college student, but you were a part-time college student because you

48:08had church meetings on Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Friday night, Bible

48:14studies, you know, early morning rise ups, you know, whatever.

48:18There was a, there was an authoritarian model that was set that said that in order to be pleasing

48:25to God, you had to do all of these works.

48:27Everything had to be performance oriented.

48:30And I think a lot of people get involved in groups where it becomes a pseudo family for

48:36them.

48:37And therefore they set their logical mind aside and they just go, well, I don't have to think

48:42about those tough questions.

48:44I don't even have to think about, you know, is Mike Bickle ever possibly a sexual predator

48:51in the past?

48:52You know, I don't even have to think about that.

48:54You know, I can set it aside.

48:56I've had instances, John, where I've, where I've been called upon to go see ministers with

49:08promptings that the spirit's given me for them, including people that were prominent

49:14and would go tell them specifically, let's say, information I got in a dream about them.

49:20And I would go tell them.

49:23And I've had examples of people who should not have been in on the platform.

49:30And one in particular, I told him and he was blowing and going.

49:35And I said, the first, you know, first time I met him, I said, I really feel strongly that

49:39you're out of God's will and that you really ought to consider stepping down and becoming

49:44an itinerant minister.

49:46Long story short, that came true.

49:49And it came true because of exposure of a really horrible pattern of sin in his life.

49:56And so I think these, what we need to do is we need to be willing to admit where we're

50:05weak, where we're at fault.

50:06Why have we followed somebody?

50:08Why have we given them our ear?

50:12And then wake up someday and just go, you know, it was a privilege to grant you that.

50:17I'm taking it back.

50:19And so for me, I started this review of life at the end of 2019.

50:26And it was right before COVID hit.

50:28And I worked on COVID.

50:29I did research on COVID and treatments for COVID.

50:32And boy, did I ever, as a scientist working in biomedical research, have to sink deep into

50:40be very careful of who you listen to, of who you trust.

50:45And that's a whole nother, boy, that's a whole nother episode another day.

50:51Yeah, I'll bet it is.

50:52I can't even imagine being in that.

50:54COVID impacted me greatly.

50:56But so all of this said, we've talked about all of the bad things that are going on and

51:03how upset we are that people are taking advantage of other people.

51:08Let's flip it over.

51:09What advice would you give to people who are being taken advantage of?

51:13I would seek wise counsel from family or a trusted outside ministry.

51:19Go elsewhere.

51:20Look elsewhere.

51:22If you're stuck in a denominational cocoon, then reach outside of it.

51:29Okay.

51:29Go to somebody who is an elder, a counselor, somebody outside of that denomination.

51:36I call it a cocoon.

51:37You're wrapped in there.

51:37And, you know, you can't get out.

51:40You can't break free.

51:41You're like mummified in it.

51:43So look outside of it.

51:44And also look to the advice of those who are known for wisdom.

51:48People who understand the book of Proverbs, people who get what wisdom is and discernment,

51:54hang out with them.

51:55So associate outside of that denomination and with wise people.

52:00That I would do.

52:01The other thing I would do is say, put yourself out there in ministry.

52:05Put yourself out.

52:06Engage.

52:08Use your own gifting and calling to the best of your knowledge and become active in some

52:14new form of ministry.

52:16Find a new avenue of ministry.

52:19For me, the last eight years, I teach women who have at the Love Lady Center in Birmingham,

52:26Alabama.

52:26It's the nation's largest faith-based recovery center.

52:31We have women coming out of incarceration and substance abuse.

52:36And so every week, I'm there teaching them.

52:41And I'm teaching them in an environment that isn't my church.

52:44It's outside of that.

52:46And I absolutely love it.

52:48So I'm getting to use, you know, to him whom much is given and much is required.

52:52So I know the Bible.

52:54I teach intro to the Bible.

52:57I teach women of the Bible.

52:59I teach classes to women that are far less fortunate than me.

53:04They've not had the privileges of life that I've had.

53:06So I invest in them.

53:08And I find there's something really nice and warming of your heart that when you tie back

53:16into that Isaiah 58 principle of, you know, it's really about the widow and the orphan

53:21and the poor and focus, get away from the platform ministry and the events.

53:27And I'm going to go chase the next rain cloud to Lakeland, Florida or to Toronto.

53:33I mean, stop this stuff.

53:35Just stop it.

53:37You know, the Holy Spirit is resident in believers, in us.

53:43I don't need to go to Lakeland, Florida to experience the Holy Spirit.

53:47I don't need to go to Toronto, Canada to experience.

53:50Look, I've been all over.

53:52I've been to big, big, big meetings in Africa and India, huge meetings.

53:56I can tell you what, I can get more joy in the presence of the Holy Spirit, hanging out

54:01with 50 women who are former drug addicts.

54:05On Mondays, then I can get in a rally of 500,000 people in Africa.

54:13Okay?

54:14The Holy Spirit is active and working in the lives of these folks.

54:19And it's not some stage performance.

54:21So, those are my practical steps.

54:24Well, all of that resonates with me.

54:26As we've discussed a little bit before the show, I like real people.

54:31I like to talk to people who are not afraid to express their opinion, even if it differs

54:36than mine, and who are genuine people.

54:39I have a real problem after having grown up in this mess that I was in, being around people

54:46who aren't genuine.

54:48You can immediately see it.

54:49You can read it.

54:51And what's funny is, as we were trying to determine what is our pathway after leaving,

54:57which church do we join?

54:58What's funny is, you would go into a church, and you could read it off of the pastors.

55:03You could go in and say, this is a genuine guy.

55:05I can really resonate with him.

55:07I may not agree with all of his doctrine, but this person believes what he's saying.

55:13And then one of them we experienced, I was like, good Lord, man.

55:16Why is this guy doing this?

55:18He does not belong behind the pulpit.

55:21If you don't believe what you're saying, don't say it, man.

55:24So, I have a feeling that if people were to just put on that level of critical thinking,

55:30you can sense it.

55:32As a human, you can detect what another human is just putting on a show.

55:37The problem is, like we've harped on, and I won't continue, the problem is that so many

55:42people have got used to the show.

55:45So, I'll follow up and add to what you said.

55:48Get rid of the show, man.

55:49Christianity is not supposed to be entertainment, but we've turned it into that today.

55:53And it's just a mess that should have never been.

55:57But, thank you so much for doing this.

55:59Well, hey, it's been a real privilege to be with you, John.

56:03And thank you.

56:04Appreciate it.

56:05Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on

56:08the web.

56:09You can find us at william-branham.org.

56:12For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

56:16from Christian Identity to the NAR.

56:19Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

56:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

56:57Available on Amazon, Kindle.

57:27Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:28Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:29Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:30Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:31Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:32Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:33Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:34Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:35Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:36Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:37Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:38Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:39Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:40Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

57:41Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Authoritarianism in the Church: A Scientist EXPOSES the Charismatic Deception - With Tom Dooley -345

Category

Transcript

Recommended