From Catholic to Confusion: Understanding “Movie Star Christianity” | Joe Schnefke | Episode 386 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Joe discuss the journey out of authoritarian religion and into a simpler, biblically grounded faith. Joe shares his background growing up Catholic and the spiritual awakening that occurred after the birth of his first child. Driven by wonder and conviction, he set out to read the Bible from beginning to end, expecting to prove his Catholic roots but instead discovering deep personal conviction and transformation. The discussion reflects the shock of entering the charismatic and evangelical world, the allure of emotionalism, and the subtle manipulations that shift focus from Christ to church leaders. Joe describes his experiences navigating charismatic churches, touching on issues of misplaced zeal, revivalism, and emotional highs that often replaced scriptural grounding.  As the conversation unfolds, the two reflect on the importance of critical thinking, humility, and rediscovering the centrality of Christ in faith. They critique movements that elevate pastors to “movie star” status, where challenging leadership becomes taboo and biblical discernment is discouraged. Joe candidly describes the impact on his family and the difficulties of course-correcting after years inside high-control religious environments. The discussion closes with a call to return to scripture, prioritize Jesus, and avoid the cultural entrapments that often masquerade as Christianity.  00:00 Introduction 01:11 From Catholic Roots to Spiritual Awakening 03:04 Testing the Bible: A Journey Begins 05:00 Wrestling with Scripture and Pride 07:13 Discovering the Assemblies of God 08:47 Competitive Zeal and Emotional Faith 10:30 Movie Star Religion and Church Celebrity Culture 12:08 Shift from Leader Worship to Personal Growth 13:40 The Treadmill of Revival and Emotional Highs 15:04 Redirecting Focus Toward Christ 16:54 Independent vs. Mainstream Assemblies of God 18:20 Influence of Brownsville and Charismatic Trends 20:03 Loss of Critical Thinking and Scriptural Discernment 22:00 Misuse of Scripture and Emotional Manipulation 23:15 Seven Mountain Ideas and Misinterpreted Agendas 24:53 Power, Deception, and Emotional Experiences 26:47 Questioning Tongues and Historical Claims 29:00 Falling Under Influence vs. Biblical Practice 30:37 Gradual Shift and Moved Goalposts 32:00 Introduction to IHOP and the Spiritual Elite 34:03 Prophets, Visions, and Unprovable Claims 35:01 Word Salad Prophets and Misplaced Focus 36:44 Heaven Claims and Early Revival Trends 38:18 Waking Up and the Journey to Self-Examination 40:00 Misuse of “Touch Not” and Loaded Language 41:44 Barriers to Leaving and the Cost of Questions 43:07 Letting Scripture Lead and Rejecting Showmanship 45:06 Redirecting Life After Leaving Performance-Based Faith ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Joe Schnefke.

00:46Joe, it's good to have you on and to tell your story.

00:50This will be a little bit different than the ones that we typically have, because your

00:54background is quite a bit different than the others who have shared their story.

00:59However, there are some similar elements, and for me, honestly, I'm just more fascinated

01:05because I want to learn more about what it was like for you.

01:08So your background was in your Catholic growing up, and suddenly after leaving Catholicism,

01:15you came into this weird world of the charismatic movement, which to me, that's just fascinating,

01:22because as I went through my journey and I left the destructive cult following of William

01:27Branham, I left that and I entered into what, you know, what I considered to be mainstream

01:33Christianity.

01:34And we tried several different churches.

01:36Some of them were, you know, many of them were mainstream, but some of them had influences

01:42that, you know, edge very closely towards the charismatics.

01:45And anyway, for me, it was kind of a shell shock, but having been raised a Catholic and

01:52then coming into this world, I can only imagine what shell shock that would be for you.

01:57So thank you so much for joining me.

01:59Maybe you could start and just tell everybody a little bit about yourself.

02:02Okay, John.

02:03Well, thank you.

02:03Yeah.

02:04Thanks for having me.

02:05Yeah, I was born and raised Catholic, and when my oldest daughter was born, it was really

02:13a miraculous sign, and I just, I wondered, like, what?

02:18I believe there was a God, but I had no idea that this God was this amazing.

02:24Here, you got this miracle comes out of my wife, and then they hand it to you.

02:28Yeah, I mean, it just grabbed hell to my heart.

02:30So anyway, that just kind of started a journey of just seeking out after the truth.

02:34I went through the, I kind of thought the Bible.

02:38I had been exposed to the Bible, of course, and a buddy of mine had given me an NIV study

02:44Bible that I used to read a lot, you know, read the red letters when I was going to college.

02:51But anyway, I came to a crossroads of, well, either this is a really good book written by

02:59some good people about this God I believe in, or think I believe in, or this is the inspired

03:06word of God that God is self-wrote by his spirit through men.

03:12So I kind of was in a quandary there.

03:15I wasn't, I kind of figured he wrote it, but I really didn't know it was there.

03:19So I was all cocky, and I said, listen, God, I know you're there.

03:22I'm going to sit down.

03:23I'm going to read this thing, and you are going to let me know.

03:26Either you wrote it, or it's just a good times bestseller good book.

03:29So anyway, I fervently read through it, you know, when my baby was little, then we had

03:34another baby.

03:36And yeah, starting at the Old Testament and reading through it from my background, I actually

03:45thought my Bible, my NIV was a misprint.

03:50Like, this isn't, this isn't, like, right?

03:54It shouldn't happen, you know, some of the Old Testament stuff.

03:57So, but anyway, God used my pride and arrogance, because of course, part of the driver for

04:01me doing it was proving that I was right, proving that being a Catholic was right, and

04:09all these Bible thumpers didn't really know what they were talking about.

04:12Well, it didn't end up working out that way.

04:16I was, I was kind of shocked, really.

04:20But anyway, I got done, and I didn't hear no voice, or it wasn't no audible voice.

04:26I didn't have a dream or a vision, but I was just, you know, the finality of finishing

04:31it, and then being done was like, oh, wow.

04:37And then it was kind of like, well, Holy Spirit, you know, Holy Spirit, because it's kind of

04:41saying, okay, son, what are you going to do now?

04:44You know who wrote it, which I didn't know, you know, before I was halfway done, I knew

04:49God wrote it.

04:50There were so many different passages that really gripped me, you know, like Proverbs

04:53three, five, you know, just like, wow, you know.

04:57And, but anyway, he was like, what are you going to do now?

05:01You're going to be like most of them, set it up on the mantel, and then, you know, once

05:04or twice every couple of years, you got, you got something that you can't control, and you

05:09go up there and start rubbing it.

05:10Oh, God, I need you.

05:11Oh, God, help me.

05:12Oh, God.

05:13Or are you going to live by it?

05:14And I was just like, well, you can't live by that.

05:17That's the craziest thing I ever read in my life.

05:19I mean, that is bizarre.

05:21I mean, come on, that's impossible.

05:23But it's like, I was busted.

05:25I knew this is what the creator of heaven and earth, the creator of my babies, this is what

05:31this is what he'd give us as Emmanuel.

05:33So ever since then, that was like 1995 when that journey started.

05:37And ever since then, I've been seeking after the truth.

05:40And I'm really thankful for your enlightenment on just the foundation of like, you know, because

05:49you just sit there and go, what, what, where did that come from?

05:52But you got kind of like the psychological and then the whole gamut of how these things

05:59that I stepped into after I left being a Catholic in the year 2000, you help bring it home.

06:09I've mentioned before on the podcast, it's really shocking to me how many Christians have

06:13never read the Bible.

06:14And whenever, I actually read the Bible whenever I was in the cult.

06:18And after I left the cult, one of the first things that I wanted to do was just try to

06:24read it over and over and wash all of this nonsense out of my head.

06:28I had been reading it through the lens of what I was told it said rather than, here's what

06:33it actually said.

06:34And kind of like your experience, once you do that, once you actually start reading it,

06:39it's completely different.

06:40And you start to wonder, well, why are they preaching like this?

06:43Why are they doing this?

06:45And one of the, one of the big things for me was after I left, I started reading the ESV

06:51version and it was a little bit, I don't know, it was like shell shock at first because we

06:57were taught that King James was the only version.

07:00But I had come across in my research where the King James translators in the preface of

07:07the King James version, they said, we only have a limited number of scrolls and we have

07:12an even more limited knowledge of the language.

07:16So this translation is probably not quite accurate.

07:20I mean, that was the translators and I'm paraphrasing greatly, obviously, but they openly admitted

07:25that and so I studied it out and I started understanding that, yes, it was very limited

07:33number of translations they have.

07:34And now it's like, I want to say it's like 5,000 different families of scrolls they've

07:39identified.

07:40And so some of the newer translations, you know, it just, it does read differently and

07:45it doesn't feel comfortable to me still because I, I like the poetic style of the King James

07:51version, but it, like you said, it does sort of, sort of change you.

07:56So anyway, so this happened to you and what was it that led you into the, you know, into

08:03the evangelical world?

08:06I think you mentioned before the podcast that you started out in the, was it the assemblies

08:11of God?

08:12So, you know, you, you, you have some, some, some dear friends in, in Christ that, that's,

08:18it's guided me and you know, they're, they're, they're men who with no doubt of me have a

08:23heart after God.

08:24And, and, uh, so yeah, I, you know, cause you, you look back and you, it's just, it's

08:32really just kind of like mind boggling certain things that I had come across.

08:37So, so we went to, uh, we started going to a church of my friends, you know, kind of a,

08:42a charismatic type church.

08:45And, uh, yeah, I, I, I really enjoyed it and, and I, I, looking back, I guess, uh, I

08:51had, I had a lot of zeal for God, you know, I, I, I'm born and raised in sports and, you

08:58know, God blessed me to be, you know, competitive and stuff.

09:03And I didn't realize this, this, this competitive thing is, is, is, is a touchy thing when it

09:10comes to, to the Bible and Jesus Christ, you know, walking on this earth, you know, not

09:15everything's a competition, so, you know, gotta be the best, gotta be the best, gotta

09:20be the best, you know, and, and so mixing it, you know, mixing that in with everything.

09:25And then, uh, you know, continually reading through my Bible, going, you know, going through

09:32certain parts of the old Testament was just fascinating to me and these Ezekiel and Jeremiah.

09:37And then I'm starting to see this parallel of the, what I'm, what the country I'm living

09:42in and, and these parallels to the, these, this old Testament and just a whole, whole ball

09:49of wax.

09:49And, and I, as I look back at it, it's like this, this misplaced zeal, I would say emotionalism

09:57and, and, and kind of like, not that the, not, not that the leaders are the leader of

10:03the church really promoted this, but it's just like how you said on some of your podcasts,

10:09this is just like the framework of, of how things are now.

10:13Like, so like you say, they, they, they have good, they have good motives, you know, they,

10:17they love God and, and they're, they, I, I sincerely believe they're, they think they're

10:22serving God and proclaiming the good news of God.

10:25And somehow it gets into the, I, I kind of come to peace with it.

10:31This movie star Christianity, like, like, wow, the world has taken over the church.

10:37We're supposed to not, we're supposed to be separated from the world, but, but, but we're,

10:44it looks to me like we're, the world's running us.

10:47You know, we got the, we got the head guy, the head movie star, you know, and, and then

10:54you got the entourage around them.

10:55And then, then all the people sitting in the seats or, or, or the, or the fans, you know,

11:02and, and the fans, fans, you don't talk bad about the movie star, or, you know, you're

11:09not going to be a fan no more in this area.

11:11You're going to have to find a different movie star.

11:13Again, we're sharing many similarities because once I left the Branham cult and I got into

11:20this, this unusual world for me, and I'm looking at all of the, you know, not just the denominational

11:27Christianity, I'm looking at televangelists and all of this stuff.

11:30And I'm starting to, like you, I think these are, these are like movie stars, man, this

11:35is crazy.

11:35And then to get deeper into my research and understand that the, the Kardashian family

11:42was behind some of this.

11:44And the, uh, what was it?

11:46The nephew, I think it was of the Kardashian patriarch started the full gospel businessman's

11:51fellowship.

11:52And he was closely tied to latter rain figures like Branham and, um, you know, deeply tied to

11:58the charismatic movement.

11:59So it was quite a wonderful mess that I had realized that I was getting myself into.

12:06And anyway, it, it was shell shock for me and it kind of sounds like it was shell shock

12:12for you.

12:13So I'm interested.

12:15Um, so after you left this, you got into this church, what types of changes did it make

12:20in you?

12:21Because I, I clearly remember this as I was leaving the cult and I was entering into the

12:26non-cult churches, the, there, there was this focus on self growth and self, um, you know,

12:34bettering yourself and becoming more like a Christian.

12:38It was all focused on you and how, how we can improve you versus in the cult.

12:43It was all about the cult leader and how we can, I'm using the word loosely, but how, how

12:48can we worship the cult leader?

12:50And I'm saying that word loosely because Branham cult, you know, IHOP, whatever cult this is

12:56that you're talking about, the movie star preacher, they want you to always keep your mind focused

13:02on them and whether it's not outright, whether or not it's outright worship, you're still

13:07focused on them and instead of focusing on bettering yourself.

13:11So for me, this was a big change.

13:13What was this like for you?

13:14At the time, you know, when my, I had a bunch of young kids and, uh, you know, I, I, I was,

13:22uh, on fire for God and on fire for, for, for the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible and trying

13:29to be transformed and being a man.

13:31I got, I mean, I, I, I still fighting this, these, these layers of pride that you just

13:36never knew.

13:37And, and, and so, I mean, I was, but before I started in the scriptures, I'm the most prideful,

13:45nicest, selfish person.

13:47And that's going to be in hell the way I see it, you know, I'm, I know my family and

13:52people would argue with that, but, but, but, but I worship sports.

13:57I worship everything, but God, God was about eighth or 10th on the list, you know, but don't

14:02get me wrong.

14:02I, I checked a lot of boxes and everything, but, uh, yeah, yeah, that it's like, you kind

14:10of get pointed to this, this revival.

14:12And like, I've heard you say like this treadmill or, or what do you call it?

14:16The squirrel wheel, uh, the, the squirrel wheel where you just, you know, you're constantly

14:21running for days and days and days looking after this revival and emotion, another emotional

14:27high, not, not that, not that God was absent or anything like that.

14:32So I guess that's what I'm trying to piece, you know, that's what I'm trying to move forward

14:35on.

14:35Like, like, like, like I've heard you say with, with some of your guests, you know, let's

14:41move forward.

14:42Let's look, let's learn from some of the mistakes we've been in and let, and let's, let's seek

14:47the Lord Jesus Christ and humility.

14:49I mean, humility for me is the whole key because if I, if I'm not on check, I mean, I can go down

14:56so many different roads of pride and self-esteem and self-righteousness and self-exaltation and

15:02self-preservation, you know, the 5,000 selves that we have.

15:08So, so, so humble yourself before the Lord, look to Christ.

15:13The whole Bible points to Jesus Christ, the resurrected Savior.

15:17Exactly.

15:17That was the big change for me is understanding that shift and focus.

15:21It's not focused on the movie star preacher.

15:24It's more focused on Jesus.

15:26And, um, like I said, I read the Bible over and over trying to wash all this nonsense out

15:31of my head, but so your assemblies of God church, you mentioned, was it the main, uh,

15:38branch of the assemblies or was this the independent assemblies?

15:41Because in my research, I began to understand that through latter rain and the extremism that

15:47was developing because of Branham and others, it caused this massive split right down the

15:52middle of the assemblies of God.

15:54And it broke into factions and you had the independent assemblies of God.

15:59They were basically rejected by the main branch of the assemblies because they sided with the

16:04extremism.

16:05And then you had the main branch of the assemblies of God.

16:08They denounced the latter rain and they declared it to be extremism.

16:12Um, but then there's this weird gray area where you had rogue districts and rogue states that

16:18would basically, um, remain in the assemblies of God and somehow keep their status, but still

16:26align with the, with the latter rain and do so under scrutiny under the, uh, under the eye

16:33of the assemblies of God.

16:34And then what happened is that scrutiny continues to grow and develop until they just get rejected

16:40or cast out, asked, asked to leave the assemblies of God.

16:43What flavor of the assemblies were you in?

16:46The, the church I went to had come from, uh, uh, an assembly of God split.

16:51I think that at best of my ability in, uh, they wanted to become an assemblies of God, but

16:56the assemblies of God board or directors of the state or whatever said, no, there's too many

17:03assemblies of God around there.

17:04So they just was a non-denominational, but it was to me, they were a non-denominational

17:09assembly of God, you know, from, from best.

17:12I know, like I said, I had a Catholic background, but, uh, I was blessed to pastor there.

17:17He was a, really a student of God's word and really spoke about, you know, spoke, you know,

17:22was a student of the scriptures.

17:24You know, he, he, he loved the scriptures.

17:26And, uh, so the transition kind of, and so then, uh, there was a lot of Brownsville from

17:33my friends and a lot, a lot of the Brownsville revival, John Kilpatrick, Steve Hill, Michael

17:37Brown, and, uh, you know, that, uh, caught right on with, with, with my emotionalism, you

17:48know, the, the emotional and, and, and, and fired up and getting them what, which you look

17:53back, how, how do you, how do I, how do you know?

17:55I mean, I'm coming from, from Catholic where you can almost be asleep and, you know, and,

18:01and there was some priest that, that spoke God's word in the sermon and you had your

18:05readings and that, but I mean, it's basically just on autopilot, remote control.

18:10You stood up, you kneeled, you, you done that.

18:12And, you know, I mean, and now you're in this whole, I mean, this is a whole nother world.

18:16So, so, so I'm, you know, I'm, I'm like excited.

18:20I'm, I'm trying to raise my kids.

18:21And, and, and I look back and it ends up, you know, cause I like to talk about the Bible

18:27and it was just strange at, at church, people didn't really want to talk about the Bible.

18:32It's just so odd, isn't it?

18:33Like, like I said, I am shocked that Christians, most Christians don't read the Bible.

18:39There are statistics out there.

18:41You can see that there are very few Christians who've actually read it and actually studied

18:46and understand it.

18:47And how does this work, right?

18:49You're sitting in a church and they're preaching about the Bible, but you don't know if what

18:54they're saying is actually in there.

18:56And I think really that's the problem.

18:57People have disengaged all critical thinking.

19:00So they just take it for granted, whatever said behind the pulpit.

19:03And they assume that it's in the Bible and I don't need to read it because this guy is

19:07telling me what's in here.

19:09So without critical thinking, you just basically, you sit there and your mind just kind of goes

19:14to sleep and unfortunately people with ill intent can hijack your brains whenever this

19:20happens.

19:20I started down that path and you, and, and, and, and you've said it, it, it, it, you said

19:26the critical thinking somehow in some ways gets shuts off and you think, oh, wait a minute.

19:33Wait, what's it?

19:34Wait a minute.

19:35And my, myself, like, what am I doing?

19:37I've done some crazy things.

19:38You know, I'm jumping around, I'm jumping off the walls.

19:41I mean, I'm doing, I mean, you know, I look back and I'm like, well, I don't, you know,

19:45I really don't know.

19:45I'm not saying I would have to say it was, I was hyper emotional, you know what I mean?

19:50And, and the, the, the, the, um, the problem that you guys have said, and you, I know, you

19:59know this, but, but I mean, it's like the critical, somehow this critical thinking, which I wouldn't

20:04word it that way, but that, I think that's the exact proper way, but, but you just schmooze

20:09over all these things.

20:10You put all these, these, these little red flag, not red flags, but these little alerts

20:14that come into you.

20:15And then you explain them away with scripture.

20:17Oh, touch not God, it's anointed one, you know, judge not lest I'll be judged.

20:21You know, all these, all these things that are taken totally out of what, well, how come

20:27you're going to judge the angels on that?

20:28And you, you know, you know, first Corinthians two, you know, what's, how do you line that

20:34up with, you know, Matthew seven, you know what I mean?

20:37There's a lot of different, it's the whole picture.

20:41It's, you can't just take these one scriptures and touch not at my anointed one.

20:46I mean, that one there, I mean, that, that, that, that's blow, that's one of them that

20:51just blows my mind.

20:53That and the seven mountain mandate.

20:54That's just it.

20:55Like I said, whenever you're shutting off critical thinking and you think that they're saying

20:59that something that's in the Bible, they can take little verses and twist them out of

21:04their context.

21:04And for me, like the, the big thing, you mentioned the seven mountain mandate, Jesus

21:10says very clearly, my kingdom's not of this world.

21:13So how do you do that without taking a verse out of context?

21:16How can you make it all fit together?

21:18Well, you can't.

21:19And what it ends up with is it's a different version of Christianity.

21:23You become a different version of a Christian and the Christian that you become is what they're

21:29wanting you to be indoctrinated to be instead of what's in the Bible.

21:33And like I said, people just don't read it.

21:36They don't know what's in there.

21:37They don't, they don't recognize that what they're doing is preaching an agenda rather

21:42than the gospel.

21:42Just starting to question things and really starting to just, you know, like I could say

21:50the, the, the scriptures try to, you know, to me being a Christian is, is believing in

21:59the Jesus of the Bible, the Jesus of the Bible, you know, biblical Jesus and practically applying

22:06the word of God to your life every second of every day.

22:09That, that, that's a, you know, we practice being a Christian, but by applying God's word

22:18to our life.

22:18And, you know, we, we, we, of course we want it to be a lot more simple.

22:22I think that's where you have to, that's where you have the submission, the humility.

22:27That's like going, Joe, you can't figure it out.

22:30You need to submit and humble yourself before God and let, let him show you.

22:34Well, that's, that's a lot easier said than done in our world.

22:37Especially when you're like me, you're just so crazy busy.

22:39How do you, how do you do this?

22:41But, you know, again, whenever you're shutting off critical thinking, you don't really comprehend

22:48what it is that, that is their agenda.

22:50And you don't recognize the differences between what they're saying and what's in the Bible.

22:55And back to the seven mountain mandate, a lot of times you don't even pick up that they're

23:00teaching it, but what they're doing is they're laying breadcrumbs ripped out of context, but

23:05laying these breadcrumbs that your brain can follow.

23:08And they lead you to the conclusion for whatever is the agenda, like the seven mountain mandate

23:13and people, you know, they don't openly preach, Hey, this is, this is the thing we want to

23:19take over the world.

23:20So people are led by these breadcrumbs.

23:22And many times people just really don't even pick up until it's too late.

23:26I had no idea what the seven mountain mandate was.

23:30Just like the lady from, from IHOP said on one of your podcasts.

23:35Yeah.

23:36Well, that makes sense.

23:37You know, be a Christian.

23:38And John, Oh, you're in the entertainment business.

23:40Well, yeah, we'll go and shine a light of Christ in the entertainment business.

23:44That's just it.

23:45It's not about control.

23:46It's about becoming a light to others.

23:48Don't think of yourself more highly than you ought.

23:51Right.

23:52Exactly.

23:52And it leads to weird things.

23:54I'll never forget the shock when I'm reading about John Wimber and he's getting involved

23:58with these revivals and movements.

24:01And he says, I saw a guy next to me on the floor, oinking like a pig in the spirit.

24:05And I'm just thinking, how is that of God, man?

24:09How are you going to oink like a pig in the spirit?

24:11And if the spirit's speaking through you, what are you doing?

24:14Are you speaking to pigs?

24:16None of it makes any sense.

24:17Did you see anything like this when you were in this movement?

24:20No, I never seen any oinking.

24:22I just seen, you know, just tons of the shaking.

24:25And then you look at this, you know, they talk about this kundalini, which I don't know.

24:29You know, I don't know.

24:30But I do know one thing.

24:32I know that one thing that biblically that the enemy of enemies of God have power.

24:43Now, I don't understand where they get all this power.

24:45But, you know, Moses threw down, or Aaron threw down the staff in front of Pharaoh.

24:51And, well, the magicians threw down their staffs and they turned into snakes.

24:56But the key was then the snake from Aaron's staff gobbled up, ate the snakes from there.

25:04That was supernatural.

25:06You know, they threw their, so I don't understand it.

25:09So I know that nowadays that the enemies of God have power.

25:15Also, like that, I don't buy that, you know, I'm not saying there's a demon behind every thing.

25:22So I'm trying to find that actual thing.

25:25I mean, you know, he's God.

25:27And I've seen a lot of shaking, a lot of praying for, a lot of getting pushed down.

25:35You know, it's that psychologically where, well, you know, I must not be very spiritual

25:41because I didn't fall out in the spirit when the guy prayed for me.

25:44Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,

25:48or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,

25:53charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

25:57You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

26:03william-branham.org.

26:05On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

26:11Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

26:15with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

26:19You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

26:25movements.

26:26If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

26:31Contribute button at the top.

26:33And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're

26:37listening to or watching.

26:39On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

26:44You know, I look at some of the things that are happening in the charismatic movement,

26:48and now the New Apostolic Reformation.

26:51And as a person who's just read the Bible many times, I have trouble associating what

26:58they're doing with Christianity.

27:00You don't see the things that they're doing in the Bible, the oinking like pigs, you know.

27:05I use that as an extreme example.

27:07And I know that by and large, many charismatics would condemn this.

27:11But then at the same time, they're doing things that they openly believe is a scriptural

27:17blessing, I guess they call it.

27:19I don't even know what you call this.

27:21They consider this to be some kind of spiritual thing, and you don't find it in the Bible.

27:26And I've mentioned this in a podcast before, but even what they call speaking in tongues,

27:32I know that they say that they find it in the scriptures.

27:34But if you really go back and understand the history, Charles Fox Parham wasn't the first,

27:40but he, through Parham, entered into the Pentecostal movement, this notion that speaking in tongues,

27:47et cetera, was divine language from God.

27:51But one of the very first things that happens in Pentecostalism is before the speaking in

27:57tongues, there was writing in tongues.

27:58And you can go on my website, you can type in Charles Fox Parham, you can find an example

28:03of this.

28:04It's chicken scratch.

28:05And they're trying to say that this chicken scratch is Chinese.

28:10Well, in today's world, everybody knows what Chinese looks like.

28:12You've seen signs and movies and whatnot.

28:16And you recognize that, no, this is not Chinese at all.

28:19And Parham sent his missionaries over to China, who couldn't speak a lick of Chinese,

28:24saying that, well, we have written in tongues, God has given us a message in Chinese to go

28:30witness to the Chinese people.

28:31So we're sending missionaries with no training, no language.

28:35They're going basically unprepared.

28:38And they get there and they realize that the obvious, they can't speak Chinese.

28:43So they come back.

28:45And then what happens is, because of that, because they recognize that, no, this isn't

28:50an understandable language, the movement shifted to believe, well, this is an unknown language.

28:56And that's not how it works.

28:58If you read the scriptural understanding of they will speak in different languages and

29:04understand them, well, where's the understanding, right?

29:06You can't go missionary.

29:08You can't go as a missionary to a country and speak gibberish and the people be converted

29:12to Christ.

29:13So it takes the focus off of Christianity and instead puts the focus on the individual.

29:19For me, I have trouble understanding this.

29:22It's not that I'm condemning it or, you know, I understand people believe this, but how is

29:28it biblical?

29:28That's really my question that I've been asking.

29:32And when you understand the difference between what it is and Christianity, I have trouble even

29:37labeling this.

29:38I don't really see this as speaking in tongues.

29:41I see it completely as something else.

29:43What is this?

29:44What do you call this?

29:45Whatever, whatever.

29:46Whatever you want to call it.

29:47But, but I, I know that, I know that some of it wasn't, wasn't right for sure.

29:53You know, I mean, I could feel me getting pushed and I'm trying to hold myself up when somebody's

29:59pushing on, you know what I mean?

30:00Like, and I, and I don't see that in the scriptures.

30:03I mean, correct me if I'm wrong.

30:06Is this, is this falling out in the spirit when you get prayed for by the prophet or the

30:12priest?

30:13I mean, did Samuel pray for people and they fall out?

30:15I mean, I don't know.

30:16I don't, I don't remember reading it.

30:18I don't remember Paul.

30:19I remember they took his hanky and people got healed, but I remember Paul laying his

30:23hands on people and people falling out all over the place of his hanky healed people.

30:28I would think, you know, but some of it's gradual, but then some of it are just, it's so obvious.

30:34It just powers right through your, your application of the scripture to life.

30:40It's very subtle, you know, as you're in these churches and if you've shut off your critical

30:45thinking and you're assuming that what the minister is saying is in the Bible, because

30:50he says it's in the Bible without the critical thinking, they can move the goalposts.

30:54And as they're moving it gradually, you really don't see the goalposts moving until it, you

31:00know, it moves far from you, but even then, because you, you're not critically thinking

31:04the goalposts could be a mile away and you don't recognize it because you've watched it

31:08move every little increment along the way, not noticing the shift.

31:12And so it's very hard to pick up.

31:13And, you know, like you said, there are some things, if you come from such a different

31:18background, like you and I have, that are pretty obvious, but some of the people that

31:22are born and raised in this type of movement, they don't pick up on it because they were

31:27also, the goalposts had been moved before they were born.

31:30And so, you know, as they're, as they're watching the goalposts move, they think this

31:34is a natural thing.

31:35So from your background, coming in as a Catholic and then coming in and seeing this and watching

31:41all of this happen, did you pick up on it?

31:43Was it, were you able to recognize some of the very unscriptural things or was it also

31:49very subtle for you?

31:50Oh, no, I didn't recognize that.

31:52I didn't recognize it till this last, you know, probably five years, honestly.

31:58Um, what happened was my oldest daughter was very, you know, very, uh, you know, studied

32:08her scriptures and, and was very, uh, done very well in school.

32:13And so when she graduated, we had, we had been introduced to, to IHOP, Mike Bickle and,

32:20and, and, and, you know, listen to these guys, Lou Engel, listen to these guys.

32:24I was a big Lou Engel fan and, um, you know, prayer, a big prayer, prayer, uh, supporter,

32:33prayer, obviously pray without ceasing.

32:36I mean, you know, I've been working on that for 30 years.

32:38How do you pray without ceasing?

32:39Well, it's in there, it's commanded, uh, but anyway, so I, my bit, I had a, like my daughter,

32:47I think she should go to IHOP.

32:49Oh, wow.

32:50Really?

32:51Thank the Lord God almighty for, for a God fearing wife.

32:54Oh yeah.

32:54Cause, cause my wife, uh, yeah, she just didn't like the idea.

32:59And, and, you know, we just, you know, we kept praying about it.

33:02I always tried to, to base these things with the kids in prayer.

33:05I mean, tried, I can look back and see where I flunked a lot of the tries.

33:12And, and so it ended up that, uh, she didn't go cause a lot of different things happened.

33:19You know, we ended up moving to Detroit and so on and so forth.

33:23And she went to school to be a nurse and, uh, the, but we still kind of, I was still kind

33:30of, you know, we went to the one thing conferences and, and so then, yeah, this, uh, you know,

33:37the 24 hour to IHOP prayer room, you know, you know, and, and, and these guys, Mike Bickle,

33:44um, I mean, he, he was, he, he's, uh, he's, he's, he's like God.

33:52These guys all are, are, are, are, are the elite, the spiritual elite.

33:57And then I don't see that in the scriptures is, is, is, is a problem, but, but, but, you

34:01know, I'm trying to be humble.

34:02So I'm honoring, you know, God's people.

34:05I don't want to touch God's anointed one.

34:08And, and so many times it's, it's all related to visions and dreams and all these things

34:15that there's no, no way that can be proven or disproven.

34:20If you disprove it, the only way you could do it is kind of like how you, some of the

34:26stuff I've seen on there, uh, William Brandon, well, you know, the, the visions kind of changed

34:32over the years, they kind of got adapted and the prophecies got adapted and where I'm at.

34:37And I'm, I'm still trying to sort all that out.

34:39Cause I mean, I totally, no doubt that there's prophecy in the Bible.

34:44And I have a hard time when they talk about the old Testament.

34:47And one time he, one prophet says, thus say it's the Lord.

34:51And he's, uh, stoned, I think.

34:56Oh yeah, that's it.

34:57Exactly.

34:57You know, when you read the Bible and you're actually critically thinking, you start to understand

35:01that what they're calling a prophet today is totally different from what they, what prophets

35:06of old are.

35:07Prophets were usually speaking out against the kingdom, against the, you know, you could

35:11call it the politics of the, of the ancient world, but they weren't speaking a popular

35:16message and they weren't speaking something that was, you know, aligned with the agenda

35:21of politics of the era.

35:23They're speaking about correction.

35:25They want to correct the people, bring them closer to God, not to take control of the kingdom.

35:29These people, some of these people, I mean, this is, this is almost a comedy show and, and,

35:37and it's really kind of aggravating and kind of frustrating.

35:40I mean, I hear the one, this one prophet, he came to our church one time and, and I hear,

35:47uh, people say word salad, you know, that'll pop up.

35:52I mean, the guy literally talked for five minutes and he didn't say one thing.

35:56I had no idea what he's talking about and, and you, and I don't want to mock, but, but

36:03I can almost, you know, if I sat here a second, I could go on a five, one, a five minute, but

36:09a minute prophecy about breakthrough and the future and God's the, you know, and it's always

36:17about John.

36:19And God has a plan for you, you, John, you, I mean, where, where, where's this, where's

36:24this Jesus is at the, at the top of the pyramid guys.

36:28And we're, we're not even on, we're not even in the pyramid.

36:30He's at the top, he's at the sides and he's at the bottom.

36:33Well, that's just it.

36:34When you have the movie star type religion, you're focusing on the movie star.

36:38It's all about the movie star.

36:39It's not about God.

36:40You don't really, you're not looking for God.

36:42And you mentioned pyramid, it's kind of my, my mind went a different way because some

36:47of this came from British Israelism.

36:49And, um, when it was turning into Christian identity, they were teaching that God was the

36:54pyramid pyramid was written as a Bible of sorts.

36:57I think they called it, but these people, what they're doing is they want to shift the

37:01focus of heaven down to them.

37:03They're the, they are the heaven.

37:05They are the, the kingdom of this world.

37:07They want to be the monarchs of this world.

37:09And in doing so, what they've done is they've, they've shifted the focus away from God, away

37:15from Christianity.

37:16And then while they're in this weird state, they're claiming all of these prophetic things

37:21as though that they're talking directly in the heavens.

37:25In fact, some of the even go so far as to say, I visited heaven or I've spent time in

37:30heaven and it's nothing new.

37:31You go back to the latter rain movement, William Branham before, you know, right as the latter

37:36rain is really exploding, he's touring with this, with this guy, little David, this little

37:41kid who his entire platform was number one, I can levitate, which is a funny story for

37:47another day.

37:47But he also says, I spent five minutes in heaven.

37:50And because the audience widely accepted, they not, they did not question, okay, is this

37:55levitation real?

37:56Is it even Christianity?

37:57Did this kid really go to heaven?

37:59Why is he preaching to me?

38:00Instead, they thought, oh, wow, he went to heaven.

38:03And then you find that theme repeating, you know, all through the latter rain, they're

38:07doing it today.

38:09It's as though they're living in heaven.

38:11My gosh, these people go to heaven every other day.

38:15They're in heaven constantly.

38:18And I don't know, man, I have to doubt that.

38:21I have to doubt it too.

38:22I mean, anybody who's critically thinking, you have to take a step back and say, wait a

38:26minute, is this real?

38:27Is this, is this fiction?

38:29Is this a movie?

38:29Is this movie star preacher?

38:31Is he, is it real?

38:33You know, and where it leaves you is once you wake up from this and you snap out of it,

38:38you have to start going through this self-examination.

38:41Okay, what parts were real?

38:42What parts were fiction?

38:44And it should never be this way.

38:45If you're going to a church, you shouldn't expect to hear fiction.

38:48And for me, it was just eye-opening.

38:50I went on this self, this journey of, you know, bettering myself in many, many different

38:56ways, not just reading the Bible, but understanding what it means to be a better person.

39:01And, you know, that's not taught in the churches.

39:05So after you came to understand that, wait a minute, something's wrong here.

39:09What, what was you, what did you do?

39:11What was your process?

39:12I want, I want to praise the Lord with my breath.

39:15I want to honor God.

39:17I want to glorify Jesus Christ, point people to Jesus, not, not to me or my church or my,

39:23my cutting edge.

39:26We got it going.

39:27We're on a cutting edge of the spiritual and, you know, we're knocking down the principalities

39:33and, you know, which I've heard you talking about, you know, all these deliverance ministries

39:39and, and, you know, you, you, you, you create so many, uh, paths to go down.

39:47I mean, I could spend the next four weeks on just the one path, you know, one path.

39:52I see so many things I could have done better.

39:56Stick with the scripture, son, stick with the scripture, which I tried, but I was, I, I,

40:05I was sidetracked.

40:06And I think a lot of the sidetrackings with all these dreams and visions, and we're talking

40:10about stuff like that, excuse me, we're talking about stuff like that.

40:14What talk about Jesus?

40:17Yeah, that's just it.

40:18I mean, if it's a Christian church, you're looking to Christ, you're preaching about Jesus,

40:22you're talking about Jesus, not yourself, not your prophet, not your apostle.

40:27For me, that's really, as I was making the decision to leave Branhamism, that was really

40:32what was hitting me hard.

40:33We, we were so focused on Branham and, you know, we weren't focused on Jesus.

40:39We didn't talk about bettering ourselves.

40:41We didn't talk about becoming a better person, becoming a better Christian.

40:45That that's all it was.

40:46So, yeah, that, that's probably my biggest, uh, grief is, is kids.

40:51And, and, and, and I, I, I, like I said, I, I honestly tried to raise them onto scriptures.

40:57Yeah, it's just so hard.

40:59You know, we, in Branhamism, we had this loaded language that essentially the passage that says,

41:06um, it's of no private interpretation.

41:08Whenever you read that, the passage actually means that there is no, there is no exclusivity

41:16to understanding the scriptures, but we overloaded that language and that passage to mean that

41:22we could not understand it.

41:24And when you're in this type of religion, that's what they want you to do.

41:27They want you to shut off your critical thinking.

41:29They don't want you to read your Bible.

41:31If you follow that out to its logical conclusion, they don't want you to read and understand your

41:35Bible, because once you do, you have the interpretation, you have the understanding,

41:39and you can see when they're teaching things that are unscriptural.

41:43So the whole foundation is false, but worse, in most of these types of authoritarian cults,

41:49they teach you that not only do we want you to shut off critical thinking, we also want you to shut

41:55off any sort of questioning or any critique of the ministry that, you know, the ministry that's

42:02preaching, and so when you get to that level where you can't even ask a question, what do

42:08you do when your children are in it?

42:10How do you ask a question and not be booted out of the church?

42:13Your children will suddenly lose all of their friends and all of their family, because now

42:17you've asked a question, your whole family is shunned.

42:20The system is just so set up that if you say that leading people away from the Bible, they

42:29will be able to go on and on.

42:31No, no.

42:32Here's proof.

42:33Here, I preach the scriptures, you know, this and that, but I think, you know, some negative

42:41things happen.

42:43So, I mean, some no-brainer negative things happening at the church that you just couldn't

42:52be swept under the rug and continue, like I said.

42:55I mean, I take that serious to pray through it.

42:57I can see where I've made, you know, like we said, I think before you start shaking,

43:04when I first read through that Bible, there's some scripture, that Proverbs 3, 5, trust in

43:09the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

43:13In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will direct your prayers.

43:16He will make plain and straight your paths.

43:18Right, that, I'm interrupting you, but that's one of the passages that was also overloaded.

43:23Lean not on your own understanding.

43:25We were trained and manipulated to believe that that meant you had to lean on the prophet

43:30or the apostle's understanding.

43:32So, what brought, what made you suddenly wake up?

43:36How did you escape this thing?

43:38Looking and seeing, I think that 2020, you know, all the, all the, all the stuff surrounding

43:45that and, and, and the, was, was quite a, that, that was eye-opening for me personally,

43:52from my, my, the way I thought biblically and, and the way a lot of the other people, which

43:58like what you're talking about with the, uh, the fellow with Morning Star the other day

44:04I listened to, you know, I mean, how do you, uh, yeah, anyway, how, how, how do you, how

44:16do you make peace with, with some of this stuff?

44:19And, and, and I don't know exactly how to do it biblically, but I'm going to try my best

44:23to do it biblically, even if it's uncomfortable.

44:25And the older I get, the more comfort, you know, when I first was getting transitioned

44:32on this, that comfort, that comfort's a powerful thing.

44:35We don't, we don't realize the depths of, that we make decisions with comfort and control,

44:41you know, and significance.

44:43Yeah.

44:43And that's just it.

44:44They want you to be comfortable.

44:45They want to have that level of control.

44:47It's, it's awful.

44:49Once that happened, I, I, I, I would say for five years, I've been trying to, uh, get,

44:55get straight up, I've went around, we've moved, we physically moved a couple of different

44:59times.

45:00And, uh, so we're still trying to, to, to sort things out and, and, and get plugged, plugged

45:06into a God fearing Jesus, biblical Jesus.

45:12I'm a sinner.

45:13I need a savior.

45:15Just basic thing.

45:18No, we don't need no peripheral.

45:20God can handle and he can lead us and guide us in whatever.

45:25What needs to be done on earth this day, right now, that Bible applies to, you know, July

45:329th, 2025, it applies.

45:35Right.

45:36And we're recording and we'll, we'll release this later.

45:38So that's referring to today, today, while we're recording, God is powerful for today.

45:43So the question is, after you've been through this and this journey that you and I share

45:48some many, many similarities to it, where do we go from here?

45:53We, we, we, we have to, I have to bring, make peace with this.

45:59I don't want to sit here and flounder around my last days here on earth.

46:05You know, I'm getting older.

46:06I want, I want to make a difference with my kids.

46:09I want to make a difference with my grandkids, with my coworkers, with that, with that, with

46:14my family, you know, I, I, it, the, the, the, one of the, the, the pride is such an issue.

46:20It's like, it's not that I'm, it's not that Joe's right.

46:24No, no, I'm wrong.

46:26We're all wrong.

46:27And God's right.

46:28Exactly.

46:29And that was the intent of the prophets.

46:31The prophets were coming to correct, not to point people to the prophet.

46:35We've got a new Testament.

46:37We got, we got, we're told how to do the church.

46:40We're told, I mean, it, it doesn't leave.

46:43There's not a whole lot of room, but somehow we can, you know, I've fallen into this thing

46:46where they just take it.

46:47And then it's all these dreams and vision.

46:49And then there's one scripture, 16 paragraphs of, of dreams and visions and prophecies and

46:56one scripture, two days worth of this, two scriptures.

47:01You know, I mean, let's, let's get the scripture interjected more in there, in the context and

47:08in the flow of our thing.

47:11But the problem is then the movie star don't get exalted.

47:16And that right there is the heart of the problem.

47:19The movie star does not get exalted.

47:22That's what they want.

47:23That's what they feed on.

47:24There are these memes and these images.

47:26I don't know if you've seen them, but it shows a speaker who's standing on a platform and

47:31he's holding a megaphone.

47:32He's preaching to an audience, but the audience is standing on this board and he's hanging off

47:37of a cliff.

47:38And the only thing that's keeping him up is the audience that he's held captive.

47:42If they will all walk away, he would just fall down the cliff.

47:45Well, that's the way these movie star preachers are.

47:48They're only in that status because the people have elevated them to that status.

47:52And it creates this world that I just, I don't understand it.

47:56Even still today, I don't understand it.

47:58We have, you've probably seen the comment feeds.

48:00Whenever I add any sort of critical information to these movements, you get the sudden backlash

48:07as though they want to support the movie star.

48:10And even if what you say is true, even if the movie star has covered up their histories,

48:15they want to fight the history.

48:17They want to find, fight the actual facts.

48:20So it just turns into this world that I, I've done this for a few years now and I still don't

48:26understand it.

48:26Why would people want to be like this?

48:29If you want to be a Christian, why don't you follow Christ?

48:31Not the movie star preacher.

48:33So anyway, I could go on to a rant for that and I won't.

48:38So you've come on through this thing.

48:41You started out Catholic, you entered into this movement, got caught away, swept up into

48:46the charismatic movement.

48:48If you could go back in time, the very beginning of this, right whenever you first discovered

48:54that you started reading your Bible, you started understanding you wanted to be a Bible-believing

48:59Christian, I think is the word that you used, what advice would you give yourself?

49:04If you could go back in time before making all of these decisions, before bringing your

49:08kids into this, what advice would you give yourself?

49:11Check yourself, pray, and ask that Holy Spirit to guide you into truth.

49:17Read your Bible, read the applicable passages, read everything.

49:22I mean, just read the Bible, read it, get it soaked in, meditate on it.

49:27If you like worship and you like the emotional, okay, read some Psalms, read about King David,

49:33read through, you know, 1 Samuel, you know, read through all the stuff about King David and

49:42this and he wouldn't do, you know what I mean?

49:45Because there's obviously scripture, Saul's trying to kill him and David's got him in a

49:52cave and he don't do it.

49:53I'm not, I'm not touching God.

49:55Well, yeah, well, God anointed, Samuel anointed Saul a king.

50:01He was anointed by God through the prophet of God.

50:06And so now this business, everybody, you know, that system and that group, they're all together

50:14and they affirm each other and they, you know, they're the prophets and they're the spiritual

50:19elite.

50:20I would say, stick to the scripture when you get a check, think, I mean, critically ask

50:25the Holy Spirit, help me to wade through this.

50:29Go to Jesus.

50:30He said, come to me, all you are heavy laden and burdened.

50:33These things, don't just sweep them under the rug.

50:35Don't just go with these, these trite things out of context.

50:40Touch not God's anointed.

50:40Well, who decides who's anointed?

50:43The guy with the most money, he's anointed.

50:44I mean, don't, don't, don't fall for some of this touch not God's anointed.

50:49Judge not lest I'll be judged.

50:51I've heard some of these guys preach.

50:53Oh, you got to throw, you got to throw your brain out.

50:56You got to throw your brain out.

50:57You got to be led by the spirit.

50:59What?

51:01Be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

51:03That's after you offer your body as a living sacrifice.

51:06That you may prove.

51:09Well, that's very good advice.

51:11Thank you so much for doing this.

51:12This has been, for me, like I said at the beginning, it's just fascinating because we had very, very different backgrounds.

51:19But the experiences that we share are much the same.

51:22We came into this world and neither one of us understand it.

51:25So that's why I wanted to have you on the show.

51:28And I thank you for joining us.

51:29So if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on the web.

51:34You can find us at william-branham.org.

51:37For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.

51:44Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

52:22Have a great day.

52:23Have a great day.

52:25Have a great day.

52:27Wei dei Deo.

From Catholic to Confusion: Understanding “Movie Star Christianity” | Joe Schnefke | Episode 386

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