John and Chino expose how faith teachings from Hobart Freeman and William Branham distorted biblical hope and weaponized belief against the sick and suffering. Instead of compassion, these movements promoted fear, shame, and denial—discouraging even basic medical or dental care in the name of faith.
Chino shares both personal and listener stories, including one survivor whose severe dental neglect was justified by Freeman’s doctrine. They explore how false teachings condemned things like braces or dentures as “worldly,” while ignoring Scripture’s deeper message of eternal hope. From Branham’s hidden use of hair dye and dentures to Freeman’s war against hospitals, this episode uncovers the hypocrisy behind “faith healers” who idolized physical perfection while suppressing the gospel of grace.
The conversation also contrasts Paul’s message of hope and love with the harsh doctrines of Freeman and Branham, who taught that aging or dying meant failure. John and Chino call out the cognitive dissonance created by these cultic systems—and invite listeners to return to Scripture with fresh eyes, rediscovering what it means to believe, grieve, hope, and heal.
⸻
📘 Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Hypocrisy in Healing: Teeth, Hair, and Faith Healers
04:00 Hobart Freeman and the Obsession with Youth and Physical Promises
08:06 From Freeman to Wimber: The Shift to Kingdom Now Focus
10:26 Hope vs. Faith: How Cults Twisted the Bible’s Core Message
14:05 The Dangerous Teaching That Christians Shouldn’t Die
17:01 Roots of the N.A.R.: Tracing from Branham to Wimber
22:01 Branham’s Tent Vision and End-Time Body Transformation
25:01 Suppressing Hope: Freeman’s War on a Biblical Virtue
30:00 Discovering Doctrinal Lies: Faith, Misquotes, and Mistranslations
36:16 Rediscovering Scripture After Leaving a Cult
39:30 Learning How to Pray Again After Name-It-Claim-It Teachings
43:01 How Medical and Dental Neglect Were Justified Spiritually
47:03 Survivors’ Stories of Pain, Embarrassment, and Rescue
54:03 The Lasting Damage of Denying Basic Care
56:00 Lack of Empathy and Absurd Teachings in Freeman’s Ministry
59:16 Final Reflections on Healing and Moving Forward
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
📘 Book Mentioned:
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
🎥 Chino’s YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
⸻
🙏 Support & Follow the Channel
– Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Website: https://william-branham.org
– Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Bookstore: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Chino shares both personal and listener stories, including one survivor whose severe dental neglect was justified by Freeman’s doctrine. They explore how false teachings condemned things like braces or dentures as “worldly,” while ignoring Scripture’s deeper message of eternal hope. From Branham’s hidden use of hair dye and dentures to Freeman’s war against hospitals, this episode uncovers the hypocrisy behind “faith healers” who idolized physical perfection while suppressing the gospel of grace.
The conversation also contrasts Paul’s message of hope and love with the harsh doctrines of Freeman and Branham, who taught that aging or dying meant failure. John and Chino call out the cognitive dissonance created by these cultic systems—and invite listeners to return to Scripture with fresh eyes, rediscovering what it means to believe, grieve, hope, and heal.
⸻
📘 Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Hypocrisy in Healing: Teeth, Hair, and Faith Healers
04:00 Hobart Freeman and the Obsession with Youth and Physical Promises
08:06 From Freeman to Wimber: The Shift to Kingdom Now Focus
10:26 Hope vs. Faith: How Cults Twisted the Bible’s Core Message
14:05 The Dangerous Teaching That Christians Shouldn’t Die
17:01 Roots of the N.A.R.: Tracing from Branham to Wimber
22:01 Branham’s Tent Vision and End-Time Body Transformation
25:01 Suppressing Hope: Freeman’s War on a Biblical Virtue
30:00 Discovering Doctrinal Lies: Faith, Misquotes, and Mistranslations
36:16 Rediscovering Scripture After Leaving a Cult
39:30 Learning How to Pray Again After Name-It-Claim-It Teachings
43:01 How Medical and Dental Neglect Were Justified Spiritually
47:03 Survivors’ Stories of Pain, Embarrassment, and Rescue
54:03 The Lasting Damage of Denying Basic Care
56:00 Lack of Empathy and Absurd Teachings in Freeman’s Ministry
59:16 Final Reflections on Healing and Moving Forward
⸻
🎧 Listen to the Podcast
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
📘 Book Mentioned:
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the N.A.R.
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
🎥 Chino’s YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
⸻
🙏 Support & Follow the Channel
– Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Website: https://william-branham.org
– Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Bookstore: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00You
00:00:30Hello and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org.
00:00:43And with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chinno Ross, pastor and the voice
00:00:48of the Understanding Scripture and Truth by Chinno D. Ross YouTube channel.
00:00:53Chinno, it's good to be back and to talk about all things for old people.
00:00:59I'm not experienced it yet, although I'm getting to an age where I probably will soon.
00:01:03But we're going to be talking about false teeth and false.
00:01:08William Branham, you know, leading the healing revival as he was harping on false things
00:01:13and he got on this one weird rant where women were dying their hair.
00:01:18And I guess he saw this as a problem because it didn't come from God, this dye that they're
00:01:22putting in their hair.
00:01:23So he started blasting them and he's blasting left and right anything that's man-made
00:01:28that you do to continue looking younger or to enhance your appearance or to enhance your
00:01:35health.
00:01:36He started harping on these things, but at the end of his life he started doing them.
00:01:41And the funny part about some of it, when I was researching John Alexander Dowie, Dowie
00:01:47did the same thing.
00:01:48I guess this was the pattern of these gimmick faith healers, right?
00:01:52They walk into a crowd and say, you don't need those false teeth.
00:01:55I can make you, you know, whatever it is, what is their platform.
00:01:59Well, this one lady, they're interviewing Dowie and they can't get him to really commit
00:02:05on anything.
00:02:07And they want to see an actual healing and they can't.
00:02:10They go and they visit and none of the newspapers actually see a real healing.
00:02:15So after they're attending the meetings and nobody's, no miracles, even though he's advertising
00:02:21every service there's a miracle, afterwards they give up and they start talking to the
00:02:26people who are outside the building.
00:02:28They talk to this one old lady and she says, you notice that man's bald as can be.
00:02:34If he had the power of healing, you'd think he could make his hair start growing again.
00:02:40And I got to thinking about that.
00:02:41I went back and I started searching through Branham sermons and there's a point at which
00:02:45you can tell he starts to lose his hair.
00:02:48Then he makes this big story out of it.
00:02:52He says, I was in the barber shop one time and you know that stuff that they set the
00:02:57scissors in to clean it?
00:02:58They accidentally spilled some on the top of my head and from then on I couldn't grow
00:03:03hair.
00:03:04That man poisoned my head.
00:03:06And it sent me down this path of research.
00:03:08I started looking at all kinds of weird things like what is the stuff they put in the jar?
00:03:13Does it really do this to your head?
00:03:15Actually, the stuff, there were different kinds of it, but the one that I found that
00:03:20was most likely used, I think it actually helped to grow hair.
00:03:24So there's all kinds of weird mess in this and it's all about a story.
00:03:29They like to take the stories that have absolutely no place in a church and ignore the stories
00:03:36that are from the Bible, the ones that actually do have a place in a church.
00:03:40And they get the people to shift focus.
00:03:43So it's like this sleight of hand thing.
00:03:45Here's the Bible over here, let's ignore that because I've got this other thing that's better
00:03:49than the Bible.
00:03:50Yeah, there's such a disconnect, John, and I don't even know the origin of it between
00:03:57reality and what these people are hoping for.
00:04:04I think underlying a lot of Dr. Freeman's teaching was he was so anti-denominational
00:04:12that anything that was projected toward or to the next life, which is what most of the
00:04:19Bible is saying, where Paul is groaning to leave this world so that he can join Jesus
00:04:27in heaven.
00:04:28That's what so much of it is about that because Hobart was so anti-denominational, he didn't
00:04:35want to talk about heaven.
00:04:37He wanted to talk about God's promises are for the here and for the now.
00:04:42And so if they're for the here and for the now, then you start looking at all your shortcomings
00:04:49in life.
00:04:50And so you go down the path of healing, you go down the path of glasses.
00:04:55Well, why should my eyes be the way they are?
00:05:00God should be able to heal that.
00:05:02And yeah, you go down the whole entire path of old age.
00:05:08And Hobart had messages on that from Psalm 103, where the psalmist said, he renews my
00:05:13youth like the eagles.
00:05:15I've got to take where Hobart, who also had thinning hair.
00:05:19I don't have much hair left to thin.
00:05:23And he didn't like that fact because for some reason it was, he was not fulfilling
00:05:28scripture that said his youth could be renewed like the eagles.
00:05:33Well, this is, you know, wisdom, poetic literature in the Old Testament.
00:05:37And why is it that they're always wanting to find some physical fulfillment of that?
00:05:45Why not in some other way, God is renewing you and bringing you back to where you were
00:05:53at a great early part in your Christian life?
00:05:56I don't know.
00:05:57It was always something physical.
00:05:59And so there was just a disconnect between reality.
00:06:02I mean, we can look at our body and say, my youth is not being renewed.
00:06:07I don't look like what I looked like when I was 20.
00:06:11And no amount of confessing will do it.
00:06:14But there's such a cognitive dissonance in these people's mind that Hobart on that tape
00:06:20was just saying, now I have people telling me, you know, I hadn't seen you brother Freeman
00:06:24in a few years, but wow, you look younger than the last time I saw you.
00:06:29If he ever got one of those comments, he milked that thing, man.
00:06:33He milked it for a good 10 minutes saying, you know, I'm confessing Psalm 103.
00:06:38But Hobart aged.
00:06:40I'm aging.
00:06:41I'm older than Hobart now than when Hobart died.
00:06:45We're all aging.
00:06:47And Hobart also was against, as you just said, John, doing the normal natural things that
00:06:55any human being would try to do within reason of trying to keep yourself looking halfway
00:07:01decent, you know, to the point of, I mean, where are you going to draw the line?
00:07:05Stop shaving, stop showering, stop doing anything because I'm just going to be natural.
00:07:12We all want to look the best that we possibly can with whatever that involves.
00:07:19Some people go too far, right?
00:07:21And some people don't go anywhere at all.
00:07:24And we're going to talk about that here in a minute.
00:07:26I got to thinking about this one day.
00:07:29Most of the things that are most impactful to the people are impactful to the older people.
00:07:37The younger people, they don't have all the aches and pains and body ailments, gray hair,
00:07:42things like this.
00:07:43They don't have it.
00:07:44So they're just sitting here listening and they're listening to all of the adults being
00:07:47harped on for natural, normal adult things until they grow up.
00:07:52And then it affects them in the same way.
00:07:55So it becomes like this weird message for old people.
00:07:59And I got to thinking about the timeline.
00:08:02So you get older, you get closer to death.
00:08:05Well, in Christianity, you're thinking about going to heaven, you're thinking about leaving
00:08:11this earth, and you have all these doctrines about trying to keep the body perfect as you
00:08:18get older.
00:08:19When we're going to leave the body behind, it's going to go into the grave, man.
00:08:22It doesn't matter in the slightest.
00:08:25And where it really got funny.
00:08:28I don't know if you saw it in the comment feeds.
00:08:30I've been researching John Wimber because Wimber is like the transition point from the
00:08:36charismatic to the NAR.
00:08:38Without Wimber, you don't have an NAR.
00:08:40It's plain and simple.
00:08:42But there are many people who are in the John Wimber cult of personality to be separated
00:08:48from destructive cult.
00:08:49I don't yet see any signs of destructiveness.
00:08:53But there are people that are in the cult of personality that anytime I mention Wimber,
00:08:58they start attacking.
00:09:00And I made this, I started my research on Wimber, and I used these tools, I think Grammarly
00:09:07is one of them.
00:09:08I've got a few different tools that help me with my spelling and grammar because, I hate
00:09:13to say it, but many times when I'm typing articles, I'm also in a business meeting,
00:09:18so I'm typing as I'm listening and talking, which not many people can do, but it's something
00:09:23I can do.
00:09:24So I make some grammar mistakes and spelling mistakes at times.
00:09:28These things catch it.
00:09:29Well, one of them started using AI tools.
00:09:34And I typed something about his kingdom theology.
00:09:37With that exact thought, they're more concerned about the kingdom here than they are the kingdom
00:09:42of heaven.
00:09:44And the AI could not distinguish between the kingdom now theology and the kingdom theology
00:09:51because in its essence, it's really the same thing.
00:09:56I got emails, I got phone calls.
00:09:59One guy hounded me constantly over this split in word because the word now was there at
00:10:05the end of it.
00:10:07And after all of this was said and done, I started looking at it and comparing.
00:10:12It's really not that much different.
00:10:13I understand the differences in the doctrine, but at its core, it's just like Hobart Freeman.
00:10:20They're more focused on the now than they are when you get to heaven, when you go to
00:10:24the other side.
00:10:26I don't know if there were any sermons done by William Branham on this topic, but it brings
00:10:32something to mind.
00:10:33And I actually had a phone call, I think it was last week or the week before, by an ex-Faith
00:10:39Assembly person.
00:10:40Actually, one of the people, John, that you have interviewed as a survivor of Faith Assembly.
00:10:45And we were just talking, but these people have different little things in their mind
00:10:50that are triggered as they're watching these podcasts, and they're going back 40 years
00:10:54in their life with all that they've experienced in their Christian life since that time.
00:11:01And things are being triggered, and they remember something.
00:11:04And he had a wonderful point.
00:11:06He said, do you remember Cheno Hobart ever teaching messages, tapes, recorded sermons
00:11:17on hope, H-O-P-E.
00:11:20That happens to be my wife's middle name, Hope.
00:11:24And I said, that's a really good point.
00:11:26And to your point, no, I don't remember any messages on hope.
00:11:31Now, if you were to ask, and I remember very few on love, the big triumvirate in the end
00:11:38of 1 Corinthians 13, faith, hope, and love.
00:11:41But I do remember countless messages on faith.
00:11:46That is where he wanted to hone in and camp out on.
00:11:51And he said, the brother talking to me said, well, when I read my New Testament, hope is
00:12:00a really big word.
00:12:02It's appearing throughout the pages of Paul's epistles.
00:12:06But at faith assembly, hope was a bad word.
00:12:10It was always antithetical to faith.
00:12:14Hobart would talk about, now, the denominational people are out there, and they're going to
00:12:20hope and pray.
00:12:21But we're going to believe and pray.
00:12:23And there's a big difference in believing and praying and hoping and praying.
00:12:28He would say, faith is a substance of things hoped for.
00:12:35Faith is the most important thing.
00:12:36You can hope all you want, but if you don't have faith, then you don't have substance
00:12:41to what you're hoping for.
00:12:43And he would go off into this just crazy teaching that, based on Hebrews 11.1, which is just
00:12:50one statement about faith.
00:12:52You can't make any verse in the Bible stand on all four legs.
00:12:56But he would say, faith, the writer says, is substance.
00:13:00It's real substance.
00:13:01It's as real of a substance as the substance will be of the answer whenever God answers
00:13:09your prayer.
00:13:10So if you've prayed for $100, when you get that $100 bill in the mail, the substance
00:13:16of that $100 bill was created out of that invisible substance called faith.
00:13:22So this is some weird, metaphysical, false teaching that faith is some type of substance
00:13:29in God's universe, and he takes it, and then he molds cars and healings and $100 bills
00:13:37and things out of.
00:13:38That's maybe for a whole other podcast.
00:13:41His whole view on faith was not even a biblical view.
00:13:45But back to what I was saying about hope, that was a weak word.
00:13:48That was a dirty word at faith assembly.
00:13:51You just couldn't talk about hope.
00:13:53And yet, in this conversation with this gentleman, I said, you know, when I think of the second
00:14:01half of Paul's life in the book of Acts, where Paul is basically, you know, he goes to Jerusalem.
00:14:09He ends up being arrested because of a false report that he was in the temple precincts
00:14:14with some Gentiles, which was not the case, but it was a false report.
00:14:19And the rest of Acts, the book of Acts, he is defending himself before Felix and Festus
00:14:25and King Agrippa and different people.
00:14:27And in almost every one of those, he said, the reason that I'm on trial is for the hope
00:14:33of Israel.
00:14:35And the hope of Israel, if you read all the context, was the future bodily resurrection
00:14:41that the nation of Israel believed in, that the body would be resurrected and it would
00:14:47be restored and you would have a new body.
00:14:50And so that all of these aches and pains and illnesses, and I mean, if we were going to
00:14:56be healed of every one of those, you don't really need a resurrection body.
00:15:02If you never age, your vision never dims, your strength never leaves you, your hair
00:15:07never disappears.
00:15:09You don't even need a resurrection body, which by the way, is a part of Hobart's theology.
00:15:15In some of his messages, John, like the one I have referenced from Romans 8, the law of
00:15:20the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
00:15:25He comes dangerously close on many occasions, and he even warns of people now, I know this
00:15:31is going to be too hard for some of you to handle, but he comes dangerously close to
00:15:37talking about the fact that there is no reason for you to die.
00:15:44And he's not even talking about the rapture.
00:15:47The only people who won't die, according to scripture, according to 1 Thessalonians 4,
00:15:53are the people who are living at the second advent.
00:15:56He doesn't even address the second advent question.
00:15:59He's just saying, if you have enough faith, this power that's living inside your body,
00:16:06the Holy Spirit, it will eradicate all sin, all disease, all decay, and ultimately death.
00:16:16And so, he would tie that in with sermons on Enoch, who Enoch simply walked with God
00:16:24and was not, for God took him, and he would go to Elijah, that Elijah was simply raptured
00:16:32up into heaven and did not die, and he would get dangerously close to teaching his own
00:16:38doctrine of you don't have to die, even if the rapture is still centuries away.
00:16:44You know, I've researched all kinds of things, mostly history, but also doctrine.
00:16:50I don't make out like I know a lot of it, but I've actually studied doctrine more than
00:16:54most people ever will, and I'm no expert still.
00:16:58I'm still learning.
00:16:59There's a lot to learn.
00:17:01In the history, like I said, Wimber, I can see John Wimber as the gateway into the NAR.
00:17:08Without Wimber, there is no NAR, even though C. Peter Wagner got credited with naming the
00:17:14thing, which he, rightfully so, he did name it, but without Wimber.
00:17:18Dr. Darrell Bock Well, Wagner was the college professor or
00:17:21something, right?
00:17:22Dr. Matthew Cunningham Right.
00:17:23Dr. Darrell Bock And Wimber was going to be like the guest
00:17:25lecturer with his signs and wonders.
00:17:28Dr. Matthew Cunningham Yeah, right.
00:17:31What's funny to me is, so I see Wimber as that gateway.
00:17:34William Branham is the gateway between the early Pentecostalism and Charismatic Movement.
00:17:41Whether they like to admit it or not, Branham is that gateway.
00:17:44And what's funny is I hear all of these things in the Charismatic Movement and now the New
00:17:51Apostolic Reformation that I can take it straight back to Branhamism.
00:17:55No matter who's saying it, I can take it all the way back there, and they have no idea
00:17:59where it came from.
00:18:01Because it is seeded with Gnosticism and Spiritualism and the occult and all of these other things,
00:18:09they take it back to a step beyond Branham.
00:18:12They'll take it back to the sources that Branham used and their influences.
00:18:17So William Branham rebranded himself and created a fully new stage persona, and that's what
00:18:25sparked the Lateran Movement.
00:18:27In 1946-ish, he got to working with the Kardashian family and started rebranding himself in a
00:18:35more entertaining sort of way.
00:18:38And he started touring through the United States and Canada.
00:18:42And this was his theme, faith is the substance.
00:18:47And you can go right back, 1947, April, the very first sermon that we're allowed to hear,
00:18:54he had more before it, but they somehow lost those.
00:18:58But the very first one that we're allowed to hear is called Faith is the Substance.
00:19:02And he goes in, and this is a theme that he repeats continually, faith is the substance.
00:19:08And he's quoting the Bible, but he's trying to tell you that it's another sense that the
00:19:16body doesn't have, that the body isn't recognized by the education systems.
00:19:22You have this other sense, and faith is the thing, but it's a tangible object, faith is,
00:19:29which doesn't make any sense if you don't understand what faith is.
00:19:33But what he's trying to do is he's trying to give people the notion that there's this
00:19:38thing that they don't have, and I'm your gateway to get it.
00:19:42So come to my meetings, come to me, I'll give you this.
00:19:46And in the early version, before it went really destructive, there's that Bible passage,
00:19:54these things abide, faith, hope, and love.
00:19:57You probably know where it is.
00:19:58I can't offhand.
00:19:59Darrell Bock 1 Corinthians 13.
00:20:00Scott Cunningham 13.
00:20:01Darrell Bock Yeah.
00:20:02So he takes biblical passages, but he twists them in such a way.
00:20:06So hope is one of the things that he is using as part of his theme.
00:20:12What he does, and I'm sure Hobart did the same thing because every cult leader does
00:20:16this, there is no hope, people, no hope.
00:20:20But if you come to my cult, you have hope.
00:20:23The world is doomed, but if you come to me, you're not doomed.
00:20:26When the early versions, it's focused on faith as a substance, and there's no hope outside
00:20:30of joining in this thing, because they said the denominationalism had become cold and
00:20:39So you have to join this, or you have no hope.
00:20:42Well then, as it's turning more destructive, it turns into a gloom and doom, and you really
00:20:50can't distinguish between what is hope and what is not towards the end of the sermons.
00:20:56But at the end, he starts giving the notion that we don't have to die.
00:21:01Towards the end of his ministry, he said he had a vision of this, that people would all
00:21:07gather in this big revival tent like they had in the 50s and 60s, and there'd be this
00:21:11little room in the corner, and if you made it to that, if you were lucky enough to make
00:21:16it to the tent, you could walk in the room, and he himself, William Branham, would give
00:21:21you your new body, and you'd step into heaven.
00:21:24If you didn't make it to the tent, I can remember growing up, my family was telling,
00:21:29they would always tell the inside stories that William Branham told them, and Branham
00:21:34would allegedly say things, be very careful, you've got to be there.
00:21:38If you don't make it there, you're doomed.
00:21:41And so you're like, your whole salvation depends on this tent from the 1950s.
00:21:47I think, John, somewhere in the future, and I actually have begun to take a few notes,
00:21:53we ought to just do a podcast on the things we are certain that Hobart Freeman dragged
00:22:00over from William Branham.
00:22:02I was suspicious back when I first began hearing Hobart Freeman, that he got a lot
00:22:08from Branham, but I couldn't prove that, because I didn't know anything about William Branham,
00:22:11but he mentioned him.
00:22:12He would always say, now I don't care what anybody says, William Branham was God's prophet.
00:22:18So anytime you make a statement like that, I don't care what anybody says, that tells
00:22:21me that there was an undercurrent against William Branham, because of some things he
00:22:27had gotten off on, quote unquote, in the end of his life.
00:22:31Anytime you preface it with, I don't care what anybody says, you know that he had already
00:22:37experienced some pushback for talking about Branham or referencing him.
00:22:44He had to have experienced that, or he would not have prefaced it with that.
00:22:48But I also knew that William Branham had, it's a little bit off the subject now, but
00:22:53we'll get back to the subject, as we always do.
00:22:57I knew that he had a UPC, a Jesus only, a oneness background in some regards, and Hobart's
00:23:07teaching on the Trinity was very unorthodox, very weird, very odd.
00:23:12So I knew from early in my Christian walk and following Hobart Freeman, I could connect
00:23:18those two dots, that if William Branham had a United Pentecostal Church background, that
00:23:25he had crossed paths with oneness doctrine, Jesus only doctrine.
00:23:30And Hobart is teaching weird stuff.
00:23:33His definition of the Trinity is a very unbiblical definition, that God is one eternal spirit
00:23:41eternally manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, that I knew he was heavily influenced
00:23:46by Branham.
00:23:47But I did not know to what degree, until as these podcasts have progressed, and you
00:23:54share things in between what I'm sharing, and I find out, well, yeah, this business
00:24:00of Hebrews 11.1, faith and substance, Hobart was famous for teaching things like that.
00:24:07And he would even tell a story like this.
00:24:09He would say, yes, this person, a part of this church down in Florida, overheard their
00:24:15pastor say, well, I don't know what faith is, and I don't know anyone who does.
00:24:21And this person says, well, Hobart Freeman knows what it is.
00:24:24He was famous for that because of Hebrews 11.1.
00:24:29And Hebrews 11.1 is in the Bible, it's a Bible verse, so it's okay to use and quote and reference.
00:24:36But as I often tell people wherever I teach, you cannot make any lone verse in the Bible
00:24:44stand on all four legs.
00:24:47Sometimes it stands on three legs, sometimes two legs, sometimes it is a unicycle.
00:24:52And what I mean by that is, it is only giving you a piece of the puzzle, and you need other
00:24:58verses to go along with that, to get a complete understanding of what the Bible is teaching,
00:25:04for instance, on faith.
00:25:06Anytime these people isolate a verse, and that becomes their favorite verse, like Mark
00:25:1111.24, which Hobart got from Kenneth Hagin, or Hebrews 11.1, his teaching on that, maybe
00:25:19evidently he got from William Branham, then I know it's not going to be a biblical balanced
00:25:25view at all.
00:25:27But back to our subject of hope, you really will search in vain to find good, solid teaching
00:25:34in Hobart's catalog of messages on the subject of hope.
00:25:40Because hope was denominational, hope was dirty, hope was bad.
00:25:45If they wouldn't say that, they would say this, hope is weak.
00:25:49You know, you're just hoping, but I'm believing.
00:25:52So that makes me better, and that makes my doctrine better.
00:25:57But the verse you referenced in the end of 1 Corinthians 13, Paul said, now abide it,
00:26:03faith and hope and love.
00:26:06And it's interesting the order in which Paul gives them.
00:26:10The only thing we can definitely make out of that is that he ends with what in his mind
00:26:20is the most important of the three, because he goes on to say that.
00:26:24Maybe you could build a case that he lists those words in ascending order, faith being
00:26:33the least important, hope being the next most important, because we know when he ends with
00:26:39love, he says, and the greatest of these three is love.
00:26:43He ends with the greatest of those three words.
00:26:47And so here was something that I can remember as a teenager who was a Freemanite, whatever
00:26:56Hobart taught when I was 17, 18, and 19 years old, I believed.
00:27:02And he said, faith was the greatest of all things.
00:27:06And I'll tell you what, every time I came to that verse, you know, I just had a problem.
00:27:11I just believe what Hobart said, because, you know, you just somehow in your uncritical,
00:27:19undeveloped mind think, well, he just knows things that I don't know.
00:27:22I mean, it appears like Paul says love is better, but Hobart says faith is the greatest thing.
00:27:29And then he'll go on a tangent, you know, without faith, you can't please God.
00:27:33And faith is a substance and whatsoever is not a faith is sin.
00:27:36And we don't walk by sight, we walk by faith.
00:27:39He has all these faith verses, and he would, you know, just literally pile them on top
00:27:43of you and overwhelm you with them.
00:27:46And so that would squash your argument in favor of love being the greatest.
00:27:53And you know what, I would also hear him say, which would be amazing, and as I got older,
00:27:59I would say, look, this guy's a fool, you know, and I was a fool to follow Hobart instead
00:28:05of Paul.
00:28:06I'm going to lay my claim on what the Apostle Paul taught.
00:28:11And he said, now abide in faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love.
00:28:16But when Hobart would get to that, he would say, now, it's not like the Apostle Paul is
00:28:22ranking things here.
00:28:23He's just talking about things, but he's not ranking things.
00:28:26Well, what is the greatest of these mean if you didn't just rank things right there, you
00:28:32know?
00:28:33And again, when he would say that earlier, and I had friends that I was trying to share
00:28:38the faith message with, quote unquote, and they would pull this verse on me, and you
00:28:43know, I'm stuck because they're quoting Paul, and I'm quoting Hobart, and they're going
00:28:48to win every day because they're quoting what's actually in the Bible.
00:28:51And they say, well, Chena, what are you going to do with this passage?
00:28:54Well, and I would just, you know, give them a Hobart argument, but it wouldn't go very
00:29:00far because they would say, well, I hear what you're saying, but that's not what Paul said.
00:29:07And you know, then you're just stuck.
00:29:09And so, as I have often said, anytime you have a problem with a verse in the Bible,
00:29:14the problem is always with you.
00:29:16It's not with the verse.
00:29:17And it's easy.
00:29:18All you have to do is just change your theology and just say, well, you know, I'm going to
00:29:21give up Hobart's view.
00:29:22I'm going to go back to the Apostle Paul's view and say that the greatest of these is
00:29:27love.
00:29:28Now, let me give you one other really good example with this word hope.
00:29:35There is a verse in Hebrews.
00:29:38I think it is Hebrews 10, 23.
00:29:43And I'm just going to read this.
00:29:44This was a famous verse for Hobart's positive thinking and confession.
00:29:50I could quote it.
00:29:51I just had to see what verse it was because he quoted it all the time.
00:29:54It was used in his messages all the time.
00:29:56In Hebrews 10, verse 23, the King James Version reads this, let us hold fast to the profession
00:30:04of our faith without wavering for he is faithful that promised.
00:30:11And so that was a great positive confession verse.
00:30:15They would go around saying, I'm holding fast to my confession of faith, holding fast to
00:30:19my confession of faith, not wavering.
00:30:22Why?
00:30:23Because God is faithful that promised.
00:30:27So when I was in my mid-twenties, I was doing a long series that I never did finish.
00:30:33And here I'm in my mid-sixties on Christian ethics.
00:30:36I think I taught 250 messages or something.
00:30:39Never got to all of the particular doctrines people want to hear in Christian ethics.
00:30:45It was just all foundational of different systems of ethics, different worldviews, and
00:30:51especially a lot of study about all of the Christian virtues.
00:30:56People think of the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 4, and they say, well, there are
00:30:59nine fruit of the Spirit.
00:31:01That's just a representative list.
00:31:03There are so many other things that are not there.
00:31:06So we would take each one of those words, faith was one of them, love was one of them,
00:31:11long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, endurance, patience, just all of the words
00:31:20that are descriptive of a Christian's life and do a thorough study of each of them.
00:31:27And of course, one of those words was hope.
00:31:30So Hobart had never told me this, but as I studied the word hope, I would use my Nestle-Leland
00:31:39or my United Bible Society's third edition, my Greek New Testament.
00:31:43I had studied Greek in my undergraduate days.
00:31:47So I'd take my Greek New Testament, and I'd find the word hope, and I came to Hebrews
00:31:5410, 23, and I go, what?
00:31:58I thought it read, let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering, for he is faithful
00:32:03that promised.
00:32:04That is not the Greek word.
00:32:06The Greek word for faith is not there.
00:32:09Guess what the word is?
00:32:10It is the word hope.
00:32:13Anybody can go check their own Greek New Testament.
00:32:15So it's just a mistranslation in the King James.
00:32:20And so I taught that.
00:32:21I said, this is not talking about holding on to a profession of faith.
00:32:26It's talking about holding on to your confession of hope without wavering, your confession
00:32:32of hope because God is faithful, he promised.
00:32:35And so what that told me, John, was one of two scenarios, and I can't tell you which
00:32:40one is true, but either, either.
00:32:44Mark knew that the word in the Greek is hope and not faith, but he wasn't about to tell
00:32:49anyone that because that messes up your favorite verse.
00:32:54Either that, or he didn't know because he was just using his King James translation.
00:33:01And here he's supposed to be a biblical scholar, and you should know what the background in
00:33:07Hebrew and Greek of the passage is before you teach on it.
00:33:11So either he knew and he hid it from people, or he didn't know because he didn't do his
00:33:16homework and either one is not acceptable as a Christian minister.
00:33:21Now maybe for your first year or two and you don't know anything, but as he had a doctor's
00:33:26degree in theology, my guess is he probably had run across the fact that this was not
00:33:33supposed to be translated faith.
00:33:36That's just my guess.
00:33:37I can't prove it.
00:33:39That really upset probably the major verse for holding on to a confession of faith when
00:33:46you have claimed something by faith, and he just didn't want to give it up.
00:33:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
00:33:54modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
00:34:00movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:34:03You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:34:10On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
00:34:15Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
00:34:21audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:34:24You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
00:34:30movements.
00:34:31If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
00:34:36button at the top.
00:34:37And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
00:34:42listening to or watching.
00:34:44On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:34:49I was almost shell-shocked whenever I left the cult and I started entering into a new
00:34:54church because so many things were flipped upside down.
00:34:59It became problematic because since the whole – I was considering the Christian religion
00:35:05having been flipped upside down.
00:35:07Since it was all flipped upside down, I'm sitting here thinking, okay, it can't be
00:35:11that far off.
00:35:12What in the world was I in?
00:35:14What in the world am I heading towards?
00:35:17And which is the bigger mess?
00:35:19But I started realizing that what happened was – and I'm certain based on what I
00:35:25know of Freeman, it's the same case – the focus was in the wrong direction.
00:35:30The focus was on gloom and doom and destruction.
00:35:35And whenever the words like hope were used or peace or security, it was always used in
00:35:42the context of the greater scare.
00:35:46So they would scare you with, this world is doomed, there's no hope outside.
00:35:50They would say things that were correct, there's no hope outside of Jesus Christ.
00:35:54But then they amplify and focus more heavily on the gloom and doom than they did the actual
00:35:59hope.
00:36:00So you left there being more scared than you were filled with hope when you left a sermon.
00:36:05And then I started attending these non-cult churches and some of them you left with this
00:36:10warm feeling of security and I'm thinking, this feels awkward.
00:36:16This is not right.
00:36:17I'm supposed to be scared.
00:36:19This is a tamed down, watered down religion that I'm attending.
00:36:23That's the kind of thoughts that go in your head.
00:36:25But I've mentioned this before.
00:36:27One of the things that helped me tremendously was I read the Bible cover to cover over and
00:36:32over and over and over.
00:36:34And as I would read, I would try to ignore everything that I had ever learned about it.
00:36:40Pretend I'm a 10-year-old and I just got this Bible.
00:36:44What's in it?
00:36:45Let's read it and find out.
00:36:46I read with those eyes, with the eyes of a 10-year-old.
00:36:49Towards the end of it now, obviously I'm digging a little bit deeper.
00:36:53I'm going into cultural references.
00:36:56I'm studying.
00:36:57I actually started reading the works of other ancient authors to try to understand the context
00:37:02of what this was.
00:37:03So I did get more advanced with it.
00:37:05But the very first few times, it's just very simply, what is being said here?
00:37:10And what's interesting is if you read the New Testament in that way, you're left with
00:37:16this peace and security and our God is powerful enough to protect you.
00:37:20I don't need to worry about all of these things.
00:37:23And then when you started attending the new churches, you start to realize that, well,
00:37:27there's a reason why they don't focus on the fear and doom and gloom.
00:37:31It's because we're not supposed to worry about it.
00:37:33And that's the true hope.
00:37:35Now, what they called hope in these religions, it wasn't hope at all.
00:37:38Yeah.
00:37:39Really good advice, John, for anyone coming out of Freeman's cult for sure, is just to
00:37:46read your Bible.
00:37:47And I do have that question from people because there's so much to untangle and they're trying
00:37:53to figure out because they think they can say, maybe it's because it makes all of us
00:38:00feel better if we can justify some of our past, that's just human nature.
00:38:05Well, there were some good things Hobart said, you know, now he did have some good doctrine.
00:38:10And I say, look, my recommendation is you jettison all of it.
00:38:17Any good that's there is easily found in other sources out there without all the trappings
00:38:24of Hobart Freemanism or with William Branham.
00:38:27You know, I'm sure William Branham did teach some things that were correct, but it's too
00:38:32difficult because of the context in which those things are said for adherence of theirs
00:38:38to go back and try to extricate mine as it were out of it, the good and leave the bad.
00:38:46That's why I think one of the brothers, and we talked about this a few months ago, he
00:38:52sent me a picture where he had started a bonfire and he said, anything Hobart Freeman, I just
00:38:56burned it.
00:38:57I just burned every bit of it, books, tapes, I burned it.
00:39:01And I didn't tell him to do that, but I said, that's not a bad move because if you find
00:39:06a message that is mostly on target, it's still that man and his emphases that are not
00:39:15correct.
00:39:16You're still having to wade through that and disentangle yourself from that.
00:39:22Yeah, just get rid of it all and just read the Bible.
00:39:27You can't go wrong there.
00:39:29In this latest interview, John, you did of a faith assembly survivor.
00:39:33His sister was saying, once she left, she said, I really walked away with nothing.
00:39:39I didn't even know how to pray because the only prayers you're taught are all name it
00:39:45and claim it and binding and rebuking and pleading and casting out.
00:39:50Those are the only types of prayers you know.
00:39:53So a prayer is, well, I'm low on gas, so I'm going to rebuke my low gas gauge and claim
00:40:02by faith that I have gas in my tank and the poor metal gas tank attached to the bottom
00:40:08of your car, he hasn't done anything to you.
00:40:12You don't need to rebuke him.
00:40:14Don't be angry with him.
00:40:15He hasn't even done anything to you.
00:40:17He just hasn't been filled up lately.
00:40:19And that's all you need to go do is put some gas in it and you won't have to be rebuking
00:40:24him.
00:40:25But that's all they know to do.
00:40:27So thankfully what she did, she said, well, I knew the book of Psalms was in the Bible.
00:40:33I knew it had to be pleasing to God because it made it into the Bible.
00:40:38And so I'm just going to go pray whatever prayers people prayed back then.
00:40:42How could I go wrong doing that?
00:40:44And that's a great exercise to do.
00:40:46And guess what happens when you go do that?
00:40:48You see a lot of negativity.
00:40:50You don't see all this positive thinking and confession that you get from these numbskulls.
00:40:55You see a whole lot of, dear Lord, what in the world have I fallen into?
00:41:01Please help me.
00:41:02The world is caving in around me.
00:41:04My enemies are surrounding me.
00:41:05I've almost sunk down in the mire.
00:41:08That's what you see the Psalmist praying.
00:41:11And then they always end with hope and faith at the end of the prayer.
00:41:16They don't ever start that way though.
00:41:18They start pretty bad off.
00:41:20That's absolutely forbidden in Freemanism.
00:41:24The most difficult question I ever asked anyone at Faith Assembly in trying to get an answer
00:41:32from them was the simple question, how are you doing today?
00:41:37I could not get an answer, a real human answer.
00:41:42God is faithful.
00:41:44God is true to his word.
00:41:45I'm living by faith.
00:41:46I mean, it's all these positive confessions that they were taught that was drilled into
00:41:52their brain.
00:41:54I couldn't get an honest human response to a basic question of how are you doing today?
00:42:01One of the things I did whenever I left the cult, I started researching everything like
00:42:04I mentioned, but I started reading some of the early church writings.
00:42:09And I wish I, back then, I did not know that I'd be doing what I am doing today.
00:42:13So I read them and I just kind of took mental note.
00:42:17I didn't take any notes as to where I got some of the stuff, but I'm reading Martin
00:42:22Luther because we're Protestants.
00:42:25I wanted to know why are we Protestants?
00:42:28Why are we not Catholics?
00:42:29And I'm reading through his sermons and understanding what is the Protestant Reformation.
00:42:34He had this one sermon, and I'll never find it again.
00:42:36I've actually looked and tried, but they were so oppressed by the Catholic church.
00:42:43It had become destructive in the same way Hobart Freeman or William, any of these guys,
00:42:47right?
00:42:48It had become destructive, and he is showing people it doesn't have to be like this, people.
00:42:54You can wake up and you can have this peace and hope.
00:42:57And there's this one sermon he's preaching, and he says something to the effect, and I'm
00:43:01paraphrasing greatly, but he said something to the effect of, now, we don't preach about
00:43:07hell in this church.
00:43:08I know they do in some of the churches that we left, you know, I'm paraphrasing greatly.
00:43:13But he says, I don't have a single person in my congregation that wants to go there.
00:43:18Why would I preach about this place that we don't want to go?
00:43:21And I got to thinking about, man, it's just so wrong.
00:43:24They preached and harped on the things that had no interest to a Christian.
00:43:30You're not interested in doom and gloom and World War III and all of the things, politics.
00:43:36Why are we preaching sermons about politics in a church?
00:43:39It doesn't make any sense.
00:43:40Darrell Bock Yeah, and remember what we've studied, sodomite
00:43:44shoes and prostitute purses.
00:43:46Why would you go to church to hear garbage like that?
00:43:50So let's continue on some of the stuff, John.
00:43:54We've talked in the last couple of interviews about eyeglasses, and so I've just got two
00:43:59more things, and I think I'll wrap up the different areas of healing that were a part
00:44:05of faith assembly.
00:44:07So the next one concerns our pearly whites, the teeth.
00:44:13Teeth, they were not addressed as eyeglasses were, and that's only because everyone can
00:44:22tell whether you're wearing glasses or not.
00:44:24So that was something that was just a huge deal, and we talked about all the struggles
00:44:28people had been through there in the past.
00:44:31And so teeth, they might not kill you like diabetes or kidney disease or cancer, but
00:44:38our teeth are still pretty important.
00:44:41We shed a pair when we're young, and then once we get the next pair, that's the only
00:44:46set of teeth you're ever going to have, and it's pretty important to take care of them.
00:44:52And even though just having your teeth professionally cleaned or looked at doesn't have anything
00:44:59to do with sickness or disease, Hobart was all about faith and healing, Isaiah 53, healing
00:45:06is in the atonement.
00:45:08For some reason, anything, as you said earlier in our talk today, connected to the physical
00:45:13body, connected to trying to take care of your body, the only one you're going to have
00:45:21in this life, and the only set of teeth you're going to have as an adult, that was frowned
00:45:26upon.
00:45:28And so what do you have?
00:45:30You have the situations of decay, of rot of your teeth if you don't take care of them.
00:45:40I have never had a toothache because I always took care of my teeth, but I hear it's incredibly
00:45:48painful.
00:45:49I know the nerves from your teeth go way down into your gum, and if you've got something
00:45:56wrong, if you've got decay or rot in your teeth, you probably are going to be dealing
00:46:03with a lot of pain in your jaw.
00:46:06And was Hobart sympathetic to that?
00:46:09Absolutely not.
00:46:11I just got, knowing that I was going to talk about teeth here at the end, another one of
00:46:16these faith assembly survivors who I have met, and I will not give any names here, but
00:46:23this just happened to be a big thing with her.
00:46:27And so I want to read one of the text messages that she sent me.
00:46:32We talked on the phone.
00:46:33The first time we talked, she texted before and said, do you mind if I record our whole
00:46:40conversation?
00:46:41Now, if you don't want to, I'm good with that, but I want to play back and make sure I hear
00:46:47everything and take notes on everything.
00:46:49And I said, that's fine with me, sister, I don't care.
00:46:53So later we began texting and she said this, she said, I mentioned to you that as a young
00:46:58teen, she's a faith assembly member, John, born into it, so she didn't have any choice.
00:47:05I found a dentist who changed my life.
00:47:09He was one of my first protectors.
00:47:13I first became his babysitter, and then a couple of years later, he offered to see me
00:47:18as a patient.
00:47:19My needs were obviously extensive.
00:47:22She says that because she sent to me her x-rays that she got from this dentist to show me
00:47:29what her teeth look like at the time.
00:47:32She even says, you can share them with John Collins and show everybody else too.
00:47:37I probably don't need to do that.
00:47:39They are pretty bad.
00:47:41He proceeded to take care of all of my dental needs at no charge.
00:47:47And in doing so changed my life.
00:47:51He never asked for consent from my parents, and I never spoke of it with my mom and dad.
00:47:57I think they knew it was happening, but stayed silent.
00:48:02There must have been a mutual understanding that if they went after him for my treatment
00:48:06without consent, he could easily turn them in for neglect.
00:48:11Anyway, I'm still close with that dentist and family.
00:48:15He recently was able to find my original records x-ray.
00:48:20It's sad to see, but there's so much healing in the acknowledgement of how bad it really
00:48:25was as I have spent so much energy convincing myself that everything was normal.
00:48:33So here she is.
00:48:34I think she's in her early 40s, and I just warmed my heart to hear this, that God just
00:48:41brought across her path somebody she was babysitting for who happened to be a dentist.
00:48:48So without mom and dad knowing, she went and got the care that she needed.
00:48:57So this subject of teeth, where do you draw the line?
00:49:01Would it be sinful to brush your teeth?
00:49:04Would it be sinful to do that?
00:49:06Is there any bigger example of, Hobart was always against do not lean to the arm of the
00:49:14flesh, Jeremiah 17 5.
00:49:16Is there any bigger arm of the flesh than this?
00:49:21Of course, he didn't outlaw brushing your teeth.
00:49:23Why not?
00:49:24Can you floss your teeth?
00:49:26Would that be scriptural?
00:49:27Would that be acceptable?
00:49:29Probably okay, but that's kind of borderline whether you could floss your teeth.
00:49:35Can you use mouthwash to kill the germs in your mouth?
00:49:38That's probably taboo, but that might be borderline.
00:49:42You know, can you believe we would have to have this conversation over in a church when
00:49:49there are so many things in the Bible that need to be talked about?
00:49:52And of course, when it comes to just crooked or broken or missing teeth, well, that's absolutely
00:50:00taboo because in order to deal with that, you have to go to a dentist.
00:50:04And so I just wonder, John, I'm so thankful this girl, I don't know her.
00:50:08I've never met her or seen her.
00:50:10She probably got pretty straight white teeth.
00:50:13Two of my children, most of my children have really good teeth because I had good teeth
00:50:19and their mom had fairly good teeth.
00:50:22Two of my daughters, they look like shark.
00:50:25You know, people would call them sharky because their teeth were going in every direction.
00:50:28And when they were very young, we had to get them some orthodontal care.
00:50:34And consequently, they have beautiful straight white teeth now.
00:50:38And I'm so glad that we did that.
00:50:40If you don't take care of your children and they're your responsibility, then you grow
00:50:44up.
00:50:45And, you know, by the time you're our age, if you look like sharky, you just look like
00:50:49sharky.
00:50:49There's not much you can do about it.
00:50:51But I just wonder the pain and the embarrassment that Faith Assembly survivors have gone through
00:50:58because of this question of dental care.
00:51:01You know, we had this one deacon at the Branham Tabernacle that I am almost positive.
00:51:06I can't say for certain, but I am almost positive that he tried to use faith instead
00:51:10of a toothbrush because when he talked, oh, good Lord, man, it would kill a flower.
00:51:15It was so bad.
00:51:18When I was 10 years old, my mother dropped me off at a dentist office and went shopping,
00:51:24which, you know, I'm still scratching my head why she did this.
00:51:27But the dentist came into the room and he put these really hard, old-timey clothespins
00:51:35on my earlobes and said, son, the pain in your ears is going to take your mind off the
00:51:39pain in your mouth.
00:51:41And pulled out a pair of pliers, I kid you not, and pulled all four structure teeth.
00:51:45And he was wrong.
00:51:47The pain in my mouth was much greater than the pain in my ears.
00:51:51But he pulled the all four structure teeth, so all my teeth just kind of messed up.
00:51:56I have had trouble like you wouldn't believe.
00:51:58I've had to have the roof cut out of my mouth over this.
00:52:01So I sympathize greatly with the people who were in this type of religion that couldn't
00:52:08get their teeth fixed.
00:52:11I became hard-headed because of that experience, even though in Branhamism you had two camps
00:52:17of people.
00:52:17You had people that actually wouldn't go to the dentist because anything you're doing
00:52:22doctor-wise.
00:52:23But you also had the people that went.
00:52:25My family went.
00:52:26Because of this scary experience, I didn't.
00:52:29And I had all kinds of problems.
00:52:31I was working under the hood of my car.
00:52:33It was 110 degrees outside.
00:52:36My car engine was hot, and I drank a big old glass of ice water.
00:52:40And one of my molars snapped.
00:52:42I heard it pop and broke completely in half.
00:52:46Because I hate dentists that bad, I put up with that cracked tooth for five years.
00:52:51And you're right.
00:52:52It affects every aspect of your life when you have pain in your mouth.
00:52:56But for five years, I put up with it.
00:52:59And I can't imagine putting up with it for most of my life in a cult over this.
00:53:05But the point I'm trying to make with all of this is we were so trained to have faith
00:53:12beyond what is normal, even beyond what is scriptural, that we would put ourselves through
00:53:20ridiculous things thinking that we could overcome it with faith.
00:53:23In the back of my head, even though I was in a family that allowed dentists, in the
00:53:27back of my head, I was thinking, well, if I had enough faith, I can prolong this.
00:53:31Maybe not conquer it completely.
00:53:33I've got a tooth that's cracked in half.
00:53:35But maybe I can prolong it.
00:53:38And had I just went and got a crown like a normal person, I wouldn't have put up with
00:53:42that pain for five years.
00:53:44But what happens is you ignore your actual symptoms when you're saying that you have
00:53:50faith.
00:53:51So for five years, I ignored these symptoms, thinking that faith is helping in some way.
00:53:57And I can assure you, folks, it didn't help in the slightest.
00:54:01I try to sympathize with these people, John, simply because I haven't had the problems.
00:54:05But I've heard from people who have.
00:54:07And I'm hearing your story here.
00:54:09That's for five years.
00:54:11I think some of these people probably suffered a lot longer in their life than that.
00:54:20And I think that probably the majority of the people would have not gone for any dental
00:54:27care.
00:54:28Again, Hobart did not teach regularly against dentists or anything.
00:54:34But because anything connected to professional help, whether it's psychiatric or physical
00:54:43or dental, it didn't matter.
00:54:46He just was so strident against any kind of professional help.
00:54:53He thought he was everyone's help.
00:54:55He gave you marriage counseling, which was tremendously wrong.
00:55:01Child rearing council, clothing council, dating council.
00:55:05You know, he was a jack of all trades.
00:55:08He could talk about anything.
00:55:10But I would my assumption would be I've never told the people will probably get some feedback
00:55:16from this.
00:55:16But my assumption would be because I see what people did with glasses, you know, they got
00:55:22rid of them.
00:55:23The clip, I think you played last time where Hobart said in that message from Hebrews 11
00:55:29of all places talking about faith and not needing and not wearing glasses.
00:55:34And he said, it may cost you your job.
00:55:37You know, he didn't care the inconvenience in people's lives.
00:55:41You know, one thing I hope people can see through all of this with Dr. Freeman is just
00:55:47a complete lack of empathy and sympathy for his congregation, which should be one of the
00:55:54highest marks against a minister, because that's your highest calling is to go seek
00:56:01and save that one lost sheep.
00:56:03Anyone that's having a problem or struggle, that's your highest calling as the local pastor
00:56:09of that group.
00:56:10And that was the thing that Hobart disliked the most.
00:56:14He had a couple of other ministers who were older, not the young guys, but older like
00:56:19himself, the associate ministers, Jack Farrell and Stan Hill, and he wanted them to handle
00:56:27all the, you know, you deal with all of the riffraff in the church and the problems and
00:56:31the counseling and let me go study 14 to 16 hours a day and where I can come and deliver
00:56:38God's word to you guys.
00:56:40And you get this mess when you've had, when you have afforded yourself that much time,
00:56:46there could have been rich things being taught at a church like that, where a minister was
00:56:51afforded that much liberty and luxury to prepare.
00:56:55And I get something that is regurgitated from Newsweek or Time Magazine.
00:57:00Are you kidding me?
00:57:02You're going to come and teach on sodomite shoes.
00:57:04I read that article myself, and you're going to come and waste my time on a Sunday evening
00:57:10or a Wednesday night with stuff like that, or you're going to come and talk about glasses.
00:57:16Yeah, you just may have to lose your job over that and just trust God for your healing.
00:57:22People drive around or people don't drive because they can't see.
00:57:26People can barely chew their food because their mouth hurts so much.
00:57:32I'll never forget the last time I saw June Freeman.
00:57:38This was long after Hobart died.
00:57:40Ava June was Hobart's wife.
00:57:43I don't remember what year this was, but June, we were still friends at the time.
00:57:49We were friendly with each other.
00:57:50I even was at June's house and I hadn't seen her in a while.
00:57:56And I probably hadn't paid a lot of attention earlier when I did see her.
00:58:01But when I first saw her on this last occasion and she smiled.
00:58:06I mean, I just about had to do that.
00:58:09Her teeth were green.
00:58:12They weren't yellow.
00:58:13They were green.
00:58:15And I felt, you know, I didn't hate her at all.
00:58:19I loved her.
00:58:20But I felt so sorry for her that under the manipulation and domination of your crazy
00:58:26husband, you know, you have been denied medical care and dental care.
00:58:32Dental care, you know, you're in your entire adult life and shame on a husband that would
00:58:38do something like that and find justification for that in the Bible.
00:58:44You know, the Bible does, as I've said often in these podcasts, John, include lots of accounts
00:58:51of healing.
00:58:52But that's just what it records.
00:58:55Those people are actually healed.
00:58:57And the people who are taking their glasses off and refusing to go to the dentist, none
00:59:02of those people were being healed.
00:59:04And I just feel so sorry for them.
00:59:06And I'm glad to learn that some of them are in the light today and they're able to get
00:59:12the care that they need.
00:59:14Well, I don't know what to say about the green teeth, man.
00:59:16I actually had this great statement that I was planning to end this with a doozy.
00:59:21But I got to thinking about the green teeth and how nasty that is.
00:59:26I'm sorry.
00:59:27It's hard to believe what people have went through for no reason at all.
00:59:33You know, there's absolutely no reason why a minister should do this to you.
00:59:38And it all goes back to what I keep saying.
00:59:40They've taken Christianity, flipped it upside down on its head, and you're sitting here
00:59:45trying to take little bits and pieces and try to see how can this nonsense apply to
00:59:51the Bible.
00:59:52Let's strain at a gnat and find ways that it can.
00:59:55And that's our religion.
00:59:56That's what these guys are doing.
00:59:58So I'm glad that I'm not in that.
01:00:00I'm glad that I now actually go to a dentist when I need to.
01:00:04I'm glad that this lady is getting the dental care that she needs.
01:00:10And I hope everybody else who was trapped in this mess can move beyond it because it
01:00:15is difficult to move beyond.
01:00:18And, you know, people psychologically, they're just kind of a lot of people are in limbo.
01:00:23They're trapped in it.
01:00:24So hopefully we've said something that helped people.
01:00:27And thank you for doing this.
01:00:29Thank you, as always, Sean.
01:00:31Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out
01:00:34on the web.
01:00:34You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:00:37For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponize Religion
01:00:42From Christian Identity to the NAR.
01:00:45Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.