- 5/13/2025
Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Chino's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
John and Chino open with a heartfelt discussion on the lingering emotional, physical, and spiritual effects experienced by those who were part of authoritarian religious groups, particularly Faith Assembly. They dive into stories of former members struggling decades later with fear, guilt, and distorted teachings about healing, salvation, and obedience. With compassion and personal experience, they explore the roots of trauma caused by extreme doctrines—like the rejection of medical treatment, the condemnation of glasses, and the idea that salvation was tied to physical perfection. They emphasize how such beliefs led to needless suffering, secrecy, and even death, all under the guise of “faith.”
Throughout the conversation, John and Chino share firsthand testimonies, address manipulative leadership tactics, and expose the theological distortions used to control congregants. From a child being shamed at school for not participating in holidays to adults unable to drive because they were told glasses were a sign of unbelief, the episode uncovers how deep the damage runs. But amid the pain, there’s a note of hope. Many who once felt alone are now finding comfort and solidarity through open conversations like this, where spiritual abuse is called out and healing is finally possible.
00:00 Introduction
01:08 The Pressure to Attain “Perfect” Faith Through Physical Appearance
03:02 Listener Messages and the Lingering Trauma of Faith Assembly
09:45 Abuse, Expulsion, and the Rise of IHOP Influence
14:06 Questioning Pastoral Authority and Psychological Damage
19:43 Glasses, Homeschooling, and the Burden on Mothers
24:53 Children’s Trauma, Isolation, and Loss of Faith
30:44 How to Support Survivors of Religious Control
35:03 The Dangerous Cost of “Trusting God” Over Medical Care
39:30 Misuse of Scripture and Twisted Teachings on Faith
44:53 Fantasy Religion, Blind Allegiance, and Authoritarian Leaders
49:10 Abuse, Poverty, and Systemic Control in Freeman’s Teachings
52:11 Rapture Faith and the Psychological Trap of Performance
56:02 The Legacy of Control: From Broken Sheep to Healing Paths
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Chino's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
John and Chino open with a heartfelt discussion on the lingering emotional, physical, and spiritual effects experienced by those who were part of authoritarian religious groups, particularly Faith Assembly. They dive into stories of former members struggling decades later with fear, guilt, and distorted teachings about healing, salvation, and obedience. With compassion and personal experience, they explore the roots of trauma caused by extreme doctrines—like the rejection of medical treatment, the condemnation of glasses, and the idea that salvation was tied to physical perfection. They emphasize how such beliefs led to needless suffering, secrecy, and even death, all under the guise of “faith.”
Throughout the conversation, John and Chino share firsthand testimonies, address manipulative leadership tactics, and expose the theological distortions used to control congregants. From a child being shamed at school for not participating in holidays to adults unable to drive because they were told glasses were a sign of unbelief, the episode uncovers how deep the damage runs. But amid the pain, there’s a note of hope. Many who once felt alone are now finding comfort and solidarity through open conversations like this, where spiritual abuse is called out and healing is finally possible.
00:00 Introduction
01:08 The Pressure to Attain “Perfect” Faith Through Physical Appearance
03:02 Listener Messages and the Lingering Trauma of Faith Assembly
09:45 Abuse, Expulsion, and the Rise of IHOP Influence
14:06 Questioning Pastoral Authority and Psychological Damage
19:43 Glasses, Homeschooling, and the Burden on Mothers
24:53 Children’s Trauma, Isolation, and Loss of Faith
30:44 How to Support Survivors of Religious Control
35:03 The Dangerous Cost of “Trusting God” Over Medical Care
39:30 Misuse of Scripture and Twisted Teachings on Faith
44:53 Fantasy Religion, Blind Allegiance, and Authoritarian Leaders
49:10 Abuse, Poverty, and Systemic Control in Freeman’s Teachings
52:11 Rapture Faith and the Psychological Trap of Performance
56:02 The Legacy of Control: From Broken Sheep to Healing Paths
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:44And with me, I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,
00:00:48pastor and the voice of The Understanding Scripture and Truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube channel.
00:00:53Cheno, it's good to be back and to talk all things glasses and teeth and hair and who knows what all else.
00:01:02The levels of control that ministers have put over the people in this so-called deliverance ministry.
00:01:09But it's a crazy thing.
00:01:11I have a few stories to tell from my side, but I'm certain you do as well.
00:01:15Now, these ministers in the faith healing movement, what happened was they taught a level of perfection.
00:01:22You had to perfect yourself in order to get this so-called rapturing faith or, you know, they spin it different ways.
00:01:27Branham called it the rapturing faith.
00:01:29And the problem is they so closely tied the healing to the salvation to the rapturing faith.
00:01:36It all came in one bundle.
00:01:38And when you weren't raptured, well, now you have to start looking, okay, what else went wrong with our quote-unquote salvation?
00:01:45Maybe we should get rid of glasses.
00:01:47Maybe it's because we're wearing glasses or false teeth or Branham had things like wigs.
00:01:53You can't wear wigs if you're going to be perfect for heaven.
00:01:56Because in heaven, you're not going to wear a wig, my brother.
00:02:00John, you and I don't compare notes, obviously, before we go online.
00:02:03You always ask me, well, what are you going to talk about today?
00:02:07And I just say, here's what we're going to talk about.
00:02:09But you just mentioned, which I have planned about halfway through this, to talk about this rapturing faith and this salvation faith as it compares to healing.
00:02:19And I will get to that.
00:02:21But this has been a really busy week for me, just fielding calls.
00:02:26From people who have connections to Faith Assembly in the past, literally all over the country, from coast to coast and various places in between.
00:02:36And for the people who follow this particular one of yours dealing with Faith Assembly, I just want to give them the heads up that on this Friday, which is May the 9th, you often do on Friday something you call Our Stories, where you are interviewing people who have a Branham background or an IHOP or a Faith Assembly background.
00:03:01And you have this woman named Jen Johnson, who lives out in Colorado, who's going to tell her story.
00:03:07So she was not a part of the Mother Church in Indiana, but she was a part of one of several satellite groups up in the state of Wisconsin.
00:03:16And, you know, I've talked with her on the phone and have had some really good conversations with her.
00:03:23So she has some really interesting things to share that I hope everyone will tune into.
00:03:28But I wanted to start today with a long message on Facebook Messenger, and this is often the way people are able to track me down, since I don't have this big presence on YouTube and the Internet that you have.
00:03:44And they can generally find one way or the other to track me down, but they track me down this way.
00:03:49And here's what she had to say.
00:03:51I'll just say in a faraway state, but here in the United States.
00:03:54And by the way, I think all of the people that I'm going to share something from today all said you are you have our permission to use our names and say anything you want to.
00:04:08And I normally don't say the names just because I don't want to harm any family members that are still, you know, in a convoluted state in their mind or, you know, other friends.
00:04:21But anyway, she said, Hi, Cheno, you don't know me, but I discovered your podcast a week ago through my sister-in-law.
00:04:29We are old Faith Assembly members and we live in such and such state.
00:04:34I love Jesus and have been through quite the journey since Faith Assembly, dealing with the aftermath 40 plus years later.
00:04:44Here we're hearing this exact same story of people who navigated away from Faith Assembly to a greater or lesser degree.
00:04:57I think I'm close to your age bracket, and I, too, got into it when I was 17 or 18 years old.
00:05:03Words cannot express my gratitude for the podcast you guys are doing and the transparency and the truth that you are sharing.
00:05:13But the first time in my life since Faith Assembly days, I sense a lightness and clarity like the clouds have parted and I see things differently.
00:05:25It's like I've had a heavy rock tied around my heart with a string and I lug it around, constantly trying to assure myself that Jesus truly loves me and that his grace is real.
00:05:40But then that rock of fear and condemnation and those old teachings pop into my mind.
00:05:46I tell myself that I'm way past all of that, but discovering your podcast with John Collins has brought so, so much to the surface.
00:05:57Imagine that. I'm sure it has. That's probably an understatement.
00:06:02And given me the opportunity to really take a hard look and yank out those last bits of weeds and thorns that have been there for so many years.
00:06:12My parents and family had quite the adventure.
00:06:14We had a small house church here in our state and my dad also pastored a small church in Finland and brought Dr. Freeman's message there as well.
00:06:28My sister was really good friends with Pam Meany who died.
00:06:33You know, John, we did a whole podcast.
00:06:35That's the girl who died the summer of 84 over which Hobart was indicted and was booked and arrested and fingerprinted.
00:06:45And I guarantee you, had he not died himself, had he gone to trial, he would have been convicted.
00:06:51We've talked before the judge interviewed him and asked him, you know, did you teach this?
00:06:55And he said, no, I just teach God wants to heal his people on however they work it out.
00:07:00They work it out on their own.
00:07:01And, you know, the prosecution would have gotten a hold of all of the cassette tapes where that is definitely not true.
00:07:08She said, I was best friends with Pam's older sister.
00:07:11Her death hit us all so hard.
00:07:13We're talking about 41 years ago when this young lady died.
00:07:17She was the sweetest young girl, and it was such a tragedy.
00:07:23I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of Hobart's tapes and Bruce Kinsey and Jeff Barnett and all of them.
00:07:32She says that her husband was from Indiana, and she has relatives who are married into some of the Freeman daughters' families.
00:07:42And that's Pam and Kathy and Becky.
00:07:44She said, I didn't know any other way to contact you, but Facebook, thank you.
00:07:49Thank you for the messages, for y'all's heart, for helping us who have been a part of this to find healing and wholeness in Jesus.
00:07:59She said, to be honest, you guys are probably the first people I've ever come across in my life that I feel I can trust when it comes to talking about my past at Faith Assembly.
00:08:10She said, I follow children of FA on Facebook, which is a big Facebook group.
00:08:19But so many on there were toddlers or really young when I was there, and so many have just thrown out Christianity altogether.
00:08:29So I don't find it to be very spiritually constructive for me.
00:08:32That's just my humble opinion, and everyone has their own experience and how they feel.
00:08:36But it saddens me when I see that those years turned people away from Christ altogether.
00:08:45You get it.
00:08:46You were in it, and you listened to all the tapes, and you followed the ministry.
00:08:50But you were an outlier, not part of the inside.
00:08:55But you still communicated your concerns to Hobart, and everything you shared is so interesting.
00:09:00A lot of it I didn't know about his background, except for the stories that he told over and over.
00:09:09And then she goes on to tell more stories of how her husband, she said, was suspicious of the sodomite shoes and prostitute purses.
00:09:18And, you know, he had a skeptical eye for things like that, but he was still drawn in by the theological studies that Hobart did.
00:09:26So even after Hobart died, they were a part of the church there, and they continued to be a part of the church for a pretty good little while.
00:09:35She said later in the 80s, we haven't gotten to this part in our podcast.
00:09:40You've dealt with Paul Kane and Casey Ihop on with some of the other people you talk with.
00:09:47But we haven't gotten to that with how Faith Assembly ended up, and they did in the late 80s, heading in that direction to John Paul Jackson and Bob Jones and Mike Bickel and Paul Kane and that whole group.
00:10:01But whenever that influence became prevalent at Faith Assembly, then her husband, and consequently her along with him, didn't want to follow that anymore.
00:10:14They had a meeting. They were called in to a meeting, imagine that, of the church, because her husband, she said, was a little more vocal in his opposition, which you should be.
00:10:27You should be raising questions and saying, what about this and what about that?
00:10:31Not everybody's willing to do that, but evidently her husband was.
00:10:35So he raised questions, called into a meeting, and then kicked out of the church because of their opposition to Paul Kane and Mike Bickel.
00:10:43And look at where Paul Kane and Mike Bickel are today, you know, where they ended up.
00:10:49This man had some good common sense.
00:10:52They were kicked out.
00:10:54You know, she went on to say in a later communication with me, which I also found interesting, years later, they were going back to Indiana to visit relatives.
00:11:06And they set up a little meeting.
00:11:09I think it might have been, let's have coffee together with Steve Hill and his wife, Pam.
00:11:14That's Dr. Freeman's oldest daughter.
00:11:16And she said at that point, they kind of joked about and laughed about being kicked out of the church way back in those days.
00:11:26But nothing was said about Dr. Freeman or the message.
00:11:30It's just like, oh, yeah, wasn't that, you know, funny?
00:11:33Y'all got kicked out and here we are sitting.
00:11:36And I think that's part of the huge problem that people have today with some of these ministers who are still connected to it in a sense that, no, they don't follow that hard line anymore.
00:11:49But they won't say why they won't throw it under the bus and call it what it really is.
00:11:57You know, at that meeting, what should have been said is I so much apologized to you for kicking you out of the church.
00:12:04I have no authority to do that.
00:12:07You can't kick someone out of your church because they disagree with the false prophet that you're wanting to follow now.
00:12:15You know, that's no grounds for kicking anybody out of the church.
00:12:19I think some people out there in YouTube land wonder, and I've had people ask me, how much authority do you think a pastor should have in the lives of the people in his church?
00:12:38You know, from 1% to 100%, you know, what percentage of their life do you think that the pastor of the church should have, should be able to have authority in their life?
00:12:50And my response would be, none of that.
00:12:54It would be 0%.
00:12:55As a pastor, you have the responsibility to share God's word from the pulpit to the best of your ability and to love your people and be there for your people.
00:13:08As far as authority in their life, where they work, who they marry, what they wear, what they drink, whether they go to the doctor or don't, who they listen to on radio or television.
00:13:21Hobart felt he had authority in every sphere of their life, as we know from all of our earlier podcasts.
00:13:26I don't think a real pastor has any authority at all in anybody's life in the church.
00:13:35You know, once they walk out those doors, you've got something you want to control in the service and it's your building and you're the pastor, you know, so be it.
00:13:43Once they walk out those doors and before they walk into those doors, their life is their life.
00:13:47And, you know, if you have to put a bridle in somebody's mouth to force them to do something, that's not the way to do it anyway.
00:13:57You want people to do things willingly.
00:13:59So you share what you need to share.
00:14:01You teach what you think is the right thing to teach and then just let people make up their own mind.
00:14:06So some wonderful stories from some people who are feeling the healing.
00:14:12And I said to you before you went online that you're you're an old hand at this.
00:14:20I mean, you've been in the cult awareness business for a long time.
00:14:25And I had no idea, John, a year ago when you and I hooked up and you asked me, you want to do a few podcasts?
00:14:32And that's what I thought.
00:14:33We probably both thought it would be two or three or four or five on Hobart Freeman.
00:14:37And here we are a year later.
00:14:40And so you've heard everything.
00:14:41For me, I'm telling you, when I read these messages from people, I mean, it it really bothers me.
00:14:51It bothers me in the sense that.
00:14:54I try to put myself in their shoes, which I simply know that I cannot do.
00:14:59And I just can't believe the pressure those people were under and the lengths that they tried to go to, to obey.
00:15:10And then.
00:15:12Just the all of these years later, it's rare that I've talked to anyone who said, you know, I ditched that teaching 40 years ago and have never thought twice about it.
00:15:25Even the people who phase that out of their life.
00:15:30Once they hear us talking about it, they will say, I still catch myself.
00:15:35If the car is slitting, I say the blood of Jesus, the blood of Jesus.
00:15:39Or if their hammer hits their finger, they'll say the same thing.
00:15:44Or they just have all of this.
00:15:46They said, it's still a part of me.
00:15:48And then you guys say, well, where did any early Christian ever plead the blood?
00:15:54You know, when Paul was about shipwreck or when Peter was in jail or, you know, anything that we read in the book of Acts.
00:16:01Where did anybody say, I plead the blood of Jesus against that?
00:16:06And, of course, for us to say that, the people that are still following for him and say, well, you guys are just anti-Jesus or anti-the cross or something.
00:16:15But, you know, it's nothing like that.
00:16:17I have a much different word when I hit my hand with a hammer now.
00:16:21But, you know, there's so much there to unpack.
00:16:24When people ask me how much authority a pastor should have over them, my answer is always, look at the pastor's kids and tell me how it's working to have that authority over it.
00:16:36Not a single pastor's child that I know of lives the life that the pastor wants.
00:16:41And that's the one that the pastors usually control the most because as they try to keep up the appearance of avoiding all evil, et cetera, and having the perfect household, usually the kids will tell you what kind of man the pastor is.
00:16:54And I say, look there first.
00:16:56And if they don't understand that, then I usually say, if there's less than zero percent, I would dub it less than zero percent because, you know, that doesn't work.
00:17:07Even when you train a dog, you don't train a dog by trying to force it and beat it and scold it and rebuke it.
00:17:15You give a dog a treat.
00:17:16Otherwise, the dog is going to behave very poorly.
00:17:18And my second answer, if they don't get the first one, as I said, I always say, do you want to be treated less than a dog?
00:17:26Because that's really what it is when a pastor does this.
00:17:29And, you know, the sad truth of it is you're right.
00:17:34I have I have talked to a very lot of a lot of people, hundreds of people at this point.
00:17:40I've worked probably one on one.
00:17:43I would say it's at least in the two or three hundreds of people that I've worked one on one with over the years.
00:17:50Some of them remote, you know, through email.
00:17:52But and I can't count the number of people.
00:17:55Every person who approaches me without fail, they think that they're unique.
00:18:00They think that their story is so awful that it is unique.
00:18:04And the first I don't know, the first 50 that I got, I was so emotionally connected to it.
00:18:10I was I was a nervous wreck, man.
00:18:12It was tearing me up.
00:18:14And you kind of have to lift rise above that once you realize that, you know, there's so many people that were treated like dogs and you have to help them back up and you have to show them much like a pastor should be doing for them.
00:18:27You have to teach them to help themselves.
00:18:30And that's really the problem in the crux with the pastors who are so controlling.
00:18:35They're not really teaching the people.
00:18:36They're just trying to corral the people.
00:18:39And there's a big difference between leadership that will corral people and try to maintain whatever is the appearance versus enabling people to become more powerful leaders themselves.
00:18:51Yeah.
00:18:51And I'm always looking for striking the balance.
00:18:54You have a lot more experience with this than I do when I hear from someone.
00:18:58I don't want to treat it like, oh, you're just one of 100.
00:19:02I've heard this story many times before because it is in their mind and opinion.
00:19:07It's totally unique to them.
00:19:08And I get that.
00:19:10I think what they are realizing, John, by listening to the podcast is that they're not the only one.
00:19:17They're going, wow.
00:19:19You know, then that's why I read some of this letter or message from this sister in another state.
00:19:26When other people hear it, they say, well, that's me.
00:19:28That's exactly me.
00:19:29And that's what I've heard from a lot of them.
00:19:31It's very vindicating for them to find out that, you know, they're not the only one who was caught up in this and who have gone through some of the same steps to disentangle themselves from it.
00:19:44And so other people I heard from this week, you know, we talked about eyeglasses last time.
00:19:49Eyeglasses was just a big subject at Faith Assembly.
00:19:52It was almost a litmus test because you can see, you know, you don't know if somebody's trusting God for their kidneys or whatever else, but you can see whether they're trusting God for their eyes or not, quote unquote.
00:20:05Are they wearing glasses?
00:20:07And so then you have then you have these women who are mothers who are homemakers.
00:20:14I've heard from their children.
00:20:16My mother, she was a homemaker.
00:20:18And that's a wonderful calling.
00:20:19And that was really the only calling Dr. Freeman would allow for women was as a homemaker.
00:20:25And that's a wonderful calling.
00:20:27And they could not even read the recipes to make the food for their children.
00:20:34And they were homeschooling their children.
00:20:37And homeschooling is wonderful if you and your husband and wife and family can navigate that process.
00:20:44It's good.
00:20:45It has its benefits.
00:20:46It has some drawbacks because of the lack of socialization of your children.
00:20:52You know, there's no right or wrong way.
00:20:54Every family has to determine that on their own.
00:20:57My wife and I did homeschool pretty much all five of our children, at least in the early years of their life.
00:21:05They did all go into public school at some point in their life.
00:21:10We have kind of a unique story, just speaking of homeschooling, in that my oldest wanted to be homeschooled.
00:21:18He'd gone through homeschooling early, then through the public school system.
00:21:23And the last two years of high school, which are the hardest years, your junior and senior year of high school, he wanted to be homeschooled again.
00:21:33Well, I was busy working.
00:21:35His mother was not capable of doing that.
00:21:38So he homeschooled himself.
00:21:40And guess what?
00:21:40He's got an earned doctorate degree and he's a college professor now.
00:21:44So, you know, there is no one size fits all.
00:21:49You know, some people can do that and some people can't.
00:21:52But for the mothers who were trying to homeschool, they can't read the lessons themselves.
00:21:57And the kids, if they needed glasses and weren't allowed, they couldn't read the lessons.
00:22:01And the kids who weren't homeschooled and not all were, they were put in a public school system.
00:22:08Can you imagine, and I can because I've heard from them, what it's like to sit in a classroom and you either can't read the blackboard because you can't see far away or you can't read the book because you can't see up close.
00:22:24Can you imagine, you know, a nine-year-old, a 12-year-old, the pressure that they're under?
00:22:29You're already under this immense pressure knowing that you're different because at every turn, you are pulled out of the classroom and put in a special room because you can't celebrate Easter, because you can't go to the football game, because you can't celebrate Christmas, because you can't eat this candy, because you can't go watch a magic show, because you can't, you can't, you can't.
00:22:53These children were pulled out of class all the time.
00:22:56They went and sat in the room until that hour event got over and all their classmates know, you're the only one that got pulled out.
00:23:06What's, what's wrong with you?
00:23:07Why are you so weird?
00:23:08And then they can't read.
00:23:10This is the trauma that these poor people have had to deal with.
00:23:15The first generation faith assembly are older people.
00:23:18It's the children and the grandchildren born into this who didn't have a say on what they could or couldn't do and who have experienced this trauma.
00:23:31And again, when you grow up in a religious setting like that, being different to an extreme degree, being a Christian already is going to make you different.
00:23:46But being different to an extreme degree, where you're not just different, you're weird.
00:23:52You're not allowed to do anything.
00:23:55You know, there's no list of do's.
00:23:56The list is only a list of don'ts, which you are not allowed to do.
00:24:00But then there is no surprise why some of these kids I've talked to, I want to say when I say kids, they're in their 40s and 50s, maybe two different ones just this week.
00:24:14Who were wonderful to talk to, by the way, but who actually were willing to communicate with me.
00:24:20You know, I don't even think I'm a believer.
00:24:23I don't even know that I want to be a Christian.
00:24:26And, you know, I told the ones I've talked to, I said, look, I get it.
00:24:33You know, as a Christian minister, I'm going to urge you, as Jesus said to Nicodemus, you must be born again or you can't enter the kingdom of heaven.
00:24:42But having said that, why you don't want to be a Christian, I totally understand.
00:24:49Had I been raised there, I wouldn't want to be a Christian either.
00:24:51So what I'm trying to do is show them there is a huge difference between what the New Testament says about Christianity and the love of God and being born again and what you were raised in.
00:25:05And you can't communicate that overnight and you can't pick that up overnight.
00:25:10But I think if people can find some sympathy and can you imagine if you told the pastor or minister to Faith Assembly, I'm not a Christian, boom, man, you are going to get lectured and you are going to get threatened.
00:25:28You're going to die and go to hell and you may die tomorrow in a car accident.
00:25:32And who knows? And you better get saved right now.
00:25:35And the wrath of God is abiding upon you.
00:25:39Hey, I understand all that and I get all that.
00:25:43But I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that will not work with those people.
00:25:48Those people need understanding.
00:25:50They need a listening ear.
00:25:52They need a loving heart.
00:25:54And, you know, it's just it's an honor and a privilege to get to talk to them.
00:25:58And I hope through listening to these podcasts that their heart can be softened and they can see.
00:26:04Yeah, that was not Christianity.
00:26:06It had some elements of Christianity to it, but it is simply not what we find when we read the Bible.
00:26:14And the pressure that the people were under to take the example of glasses, they knew that Hobart had also taught from Romans 13 that we should obey the laws of the land.
00:26:31They knew, you know, they weren't just taught you can do anything you want to do and be rebellious.
00:26:37You need to obey the laws of the land.
00:26:39But they were also taught you've got to obey God's laws.
00:26:42And any time they conflict, you have to choose God's way over the laws of the land.
00:26:47So they would see that that taking a test and wearing glasses for your poor vision is somehow going to violate God's law.
00:26:58And so many of them would just break the law.
00:27:00They'd say, well, I got to choose between them.
00:27:02I've got to be able to drive.
00:27:04I can't pass the test.
00:27:06I can't wear glasses.
00:27:07Here again, this conundrum, these people are in.
00:27:10So they would just break the law.
00:27:12Some people would drive and couldn't see.
00:27:15And there were a number of accidents.
00:27:19They were just fender benders because they happened in the parking lot at Faith Assembly.
00:27:24You've got these people driving around who are blind as a back.
00:27:27I mean, they just can't see.
00:27:28I even had one person tell me this story just recently.
00:27:33There was a man at Faith Assembly who would either cover his eyes with his hand or wear a blindfold and run around up and down the aisles of Faith Assembly.
00:27:47And he said that he never tripped, never ran into anything.
00:27:52And imagine all the diaper bags and child carriers and book bags and Bibles.
00:27:58And he said, this proved the anointing of the Holy Ghost on me, that he could blindfold himself and run around Faith Assembly.
00:28:07And I just hear things like this and I go, oh, Lord, you know, I know where that came from.
00:28:14No, Hobart never taught to do anything like that.
00:28:17And Hobart himself would have been opposed to that.
00:28:19But I know where that came from.
00:28:21That came from this hyper, hyper teaching on faith that you need to do extreme things to prove that you have faith.
00:28:31And what does something like that accomplish?
00:28:34Where is anything like that in the Bible that is so ridiculous to do something like that?
00:28:40But I know the origin of it.
00:28:42It's simply Hobart's extreme teaching on we have faith for everything and you need to be able to demonstrate your faith, though there's a way someone tried to demonstrate it.
00:28:54You know, I take the extremes that you're talking about much further back.
00:28:58A lot of people don't know this, but William Branham and his mentor, who was we've mentioned he was a ranking member of the Klan.
00:29:06They were helping the snake handling and poison drinking sect of Pentecostalism.
00:29:11In fact, I'm in communication with the son or is it the son?
00:29:16They might be the nephew of one of the more famous snake handling pastors who is in Cincinnati.
00:29:21Big part of Branham's revival tours.
00:29:24He was following Branham everywhere.
00:29:25There are quotes where Branham is talking about he and Roy Davis, that's his mentor, standing in front of audiences.
00:29:33And Davis would drink strychnine, which I'm certain it wasn't strychnine, but that's what they told the people.
00:29:40And look at the power of God that I can test my faith.
00:29:44And that's where it comes down to.
00:29:45The root of that is Christians who are in this type of mindset, and I'm using the word Christians very, very loosely there.
00:29:54They're in that type of mindset where they have combined so many things with the gospel that aren't the gospel that they have to prove those things are correct.
00:30:04And the way that they prove it is through the actions that they do.
00:30:07And many of those actions are just absurd if you're never in this.
00:30:11But when you're in it, you see this is this holy thing.
00:30:15And that difference between being in it and seeing all of this craziness.
00:30:21You know, I have a lot of people who, like I said, a lot of people have contacted me who are struggling.
00:30:28They've left the cult.
00:30:29Some of them have left the cult 50 years.
00:30:30I talked to one guy that was in his, gosh, I think he was in his 70s when he actually finally left.
00:30:37And he says, this thing has robbed my entire life from me.
00:30:40And when they're 70, you can see how that would be.
00:30:43But take a step back and just look at some of the 30-year-olds that have left.
00:30:48When they leave, if they have any relationship with their parents, which many of them don't,
00:30:54but if their parents have not cut them off, the parents will say things like,
00:30:57you had a pretty good life, though, didn't you?
00:30:59And they'll try to push this notion that all of this weirdness was good
00:31:05and that they just missed out on a few things.
00:31:07What they do is they pick the big don'ts that were obvious, usually the ones for appearance.
00:31:13Yes, you had to wear long dresses, but you had an otherwise good life.
00:31:18But they don't go back to the psyche of the child who is in school who does have to miss out.
00:31:24I was one of those children.
00:31:25I was one of those children who would exit the class whenever they were talking about something
00:31:30that destroyed the foundation of our faith.
00:31:34Especially science classes, man, you can't take some of those because once you learn the reality
00:31:40of some of the science and how it doesn't coincide with some of the things that they're teaching,
00:31:44you just kind of have to step out.
00:31:46When I started working with people after leaving the cult, and I was somewhat distant from this
00:31:58at this point, I've lived after leaving the cult, I've had new experiences that I didn't
00:32:03have while in it.
00:32:04So you kind of forget about it.
00:32:06But people who are wanting to help people who are escaping a cult, they'll ask me,
00:32:13how can I help?
00:32:14What can I do?
00:32:15And usually I try to tailor it to the cult.
00:32:18But in general, it's really just the little things.
00:32:22Things that you take for granted that everybody should be able to do.
00:32:25And why would they not?
00:32:26Because that's really stupid.
00:32:28Some of them may not.
00:32:29I talked to one lady who her family did not let her read any books, literature, magazines,
00:32:36newspaper, anything.
00:32:38Nothing except the Bible.
00:32:40The Bible is the only holy book, so you can read nothing.
00:32:43And she did read some.
00:32:46She would sneak in her closet and she would sneak home a book from her school library.
00:32:50But for her, just giving her a book was the most wonderful thing you could do to her.
00:32:55I had another, this couple had never been to the movie theater.
00:32:59Ever.
00:33:00In their life.
00:33:00And they're like 40 years old, man.
00:33:03You take somebody out on a trip to the movie theater and you think of little things like
00:33:07that that everybody enjoys.
00:33:09Well, some of these people didn't have it.
00:33:11I've had friends who had, in the cult, they didn't drink coffee.
00:33:14And they liked the person running without the blindfolded.
00:33:19It wasn't really a doctrine, but they tried to prove their faith.
00:33:22They tried to push it even further, right?
00:33:25So many things that you take for granted.
00:33:27And some of these people have never done.
00:33:29So my advice to people who ask me who weren't in the cult, how can I help this person?
00:33:35What can I do for them?
00:33:37Be a friend.
00:33:38Do the little things that you take for granted.
00:33:40They may have never, ever done them.
00:33:42Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism
00:33:48transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic
00:33:55reformation?
00:33:55You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:34:03On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:34:17You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:34:24If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:34:30And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:34:37On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:34:41One of the people I talked to this week told me the story of how her father, who was a good father to her and to her siblings, and was a good Christian man, but he simply couldn't pass the eye exam.
00:34:55And he had a professional job that he had to get to, and I think it was his mother, this woman's grandmother, who happened to be one of the, how can I say this and not give away people, one of the pillars of the church from years ago, from Faith Assembly.
00:35:15The mother, the mother church, the main church there in northern Indiana, told her son that he should take off his glasses in order to trust God.
00:35:26And so here we have a parent telling their adult child what they need to do, and he did it.
00:35:36And, you know, that's nothing that any of us should do.
00:35:40You don't go around telling other people how to practice their faith or how to live their Christian life.
00:35:47You let people figure that out on their own.
00:35:49And, of course, the advice she gave him was terrible advice to take off your glasses, and it was not biblical advice at all, and try to pass the test, and he couldn't pass the test.
00:36:00And so for I don't know how many years, I don't know if it was the rest of his life,
00:36:05but I know it was at least the next 10 years, maybe the rest of his life, because he never got his vision manifested, quote-unquote.
00:36:13The mother, who is busy with all of these children, has to take him to work every day.
00:36:20And, you know, I've had a conversation with a different person and a different physical ailment along this same line where I pointed out to them,
00:36:28Look, I'm all in favor of helping your relatives if they need help, but let me just share something from their perspective,
00:36:38what they should be thinking of, because they're a Christian and they're an adult.
00:36:44Can you imagine the selfishness and irresponsibility involved in a person like that who is now dragging others along your faith trial with you?
00:36:54Hey, if you don't want to wear glasses and not be able to drive, you know, that's your decision as an adult.
00:37:00Guess what? You get to live with the consequences.
00:37:03The fact that you can't get to work, sorry, that's not my fault or my problem, and neither is it your wife's or anybody else's.
00:37:10You know, you make that decision, you live with the consequences.
00:37:13And the people from Faith Assembly, I don't know that they ever saw until years later in their experience the reality of what I'm saying right now.
00:37:27The person that I talked to earlier who has a relative who is not, who is in a very dire strait and who simply cannot take care of themselves anymore because of physical issues.
00:37:42But these physical issues were things that could have easily been dealt with years ago had he gone to the doctor and had it taken care of.
00:37:51And so I've been able to share with them, do you see the, this is a message that does not work at all.
00:38:01It's 100% a false healing message.
00:38:03It does not work.
00:38:05These people have stepped out on a limb, said, I'm not going to go to the doctor for this, let's say, a small procedure that I need.
00:38:11I'm just going to trust God.
00:38:12And because they don't go and God hasn't healed them and it's gotten worse and worse and worse and worse, now what's going on?
00:38:22Well, you can't even take care of yourself.
00:38:23So now your wife or your children or your grandchildren or somebody is in the house doing what you should be doing.
00:38:31And yet there you are laying in bed saying, but I'm believing God by faith.
00:38:36He's going to heal me.
00:38:38No, that's not how these things work.
00:38:40You know, if you're an adult and you're big enough to claim your healing, then you can live with all the ramifications and consequences of that.
00:38:50And I'm not saying because these people are so seriously deceived that the adult children shouldn't help the parent.
00:38:56That's, you know, that family will have to determine how they're going to handle that.
00:39:01But I simply wanted everyone to see the irresponsibility of this so-called faith message and waiting for your manifestation.
00:39:11You, as I said earlier, be my guest and wait for your manifestation until the cows come home.
00:39:19But do it on your own and be responsible for all of the inconveniences that you have brought upon yourself while you're waiting for your manifestation to occur.
00:39:29But speaking of glasses, you know, Hobart's going to have his verses and he had his most favorite one.
00:39:37Second Corinthians five, seven, for we walk not by sight, but by faith.
00:39:45Wow.
00:39:46I mean, look at there.
00:39:47We've actually got a verse that said, you don't have to walk by sight.
00:39:52You can blindfold yourself and run around the church.
00:39:55We don't walk by sight.
00:39:56We walk by faith.
00:39:57I would encourage everyone to read first Corinthians five, the first few verses.
00:40:03Paul, it has nothing to do with healings or manifestations or faith trials or anything.
00:40:10Paul is talking about wanting to be clothed with his resurrection body.
00:40:17He is anxious to get to heaven, give up the mortal bodies.
00:40:21And I don't want to be unclothed, but I want to be clothed upon with my resurrection body.
00:40:26And so he said, meanwhile, you know, we're just walking by faith, not by sight.
00:40:32I can't see heaven yet.
00:40:34I can't see my resurrection yet.
00:40:37I can't see my glorified resurrection body yet.
00:40:41But he said, but I know it's going to happen.
00:40:45And so meanwhile, I'm not walking by sight.
00:40:49I'm walking by faith.
00:40:51That's the context of that.
00:40:53That is the context of that verse.
00:40:55But here we go again, where people like Dr. Freeman have turned the Bible into a connect
00:41:02the dots book where they play hopscotch through the Bible, find a verse that says what you
00:41:10want it to say.
00:41:12Never tell the people what the context is.
00:41:16And I, if I've heard that verse once in a faith or healing message, I've heard it a hundred
00:41:21times.
00:41:21We walk by faith and not by sight.
00:41:24But if you don't know the context, you're slow down to look at it, you think, well, that's
00:41:29a literal text that says, even if I can't see with my, you know, by not wearing glasses
00:41:36and not being able to pass the test, it doesn't matter because we don't walk by sight anyway.
00:41:42We walk by faith.
00:41:43That is a classic and prime example of just twisting the Bible out of its context, making
00:41:50it say something it doesn't say, and there goes Hobart again, just playing God in the
00:41:59lives of the people.
00:42:00He doesn't live in these people's homes to witness the difficulty and the suffering and
00:42:07their lack of comfort.
00:42:08He doesn't care.
00:42:09He stands up in the pulpit.
00:42:11He pontificates.
00:42:13He goes out the back door, hops in his car, and his wife drives him back home where he can
00:42:17study for 14 to 16 hours a day until it's his time to teach again.
00:42:23I've heard that verse so many times too, man.
00:42:25In fact, we had our favorite sermons and looking back how silly that was, but we had these recordings
00:42:32of William Branham and I had my, I had the whole collection in my father's house, but I
00:42:37had my subset, which I thought were the, my favorites.
00:42:40And one of them was William Branham's sermon, When Love Projects.
00:42:45I think it may be called When Divine Love Projects Now.
00:42:48And what, what he's essentially teaching is projection.
00:42:53Like if you study the occult and you study all of the different Gnostic views, he was
00:42:57teaching projection.
00:42:59And it, the example that he gave and he's tying divine love to faith.
00:43:05And he talks about going into the pasture and, oh my gosh, I didn't know there was this raging
00:43:11bull in the pasture.
00:43:12And the bull started charging me and I thought, I really love that bull.
00:43:16And I projected my love on him and he was just as calm as a kitten.
00:43:22And I was telling this to one of my friends, you know, I work in IT, so I work with a variety
00:43:27of different religious, religions of people.
00:43:31And then one of my friends said, you know, that's straight from the stories from Buddha,
00:43:36right?
00:43:36That's not a Christian story that you're telling me, John.
00:43:40This man has copied Buddha.
00:43:42And I look it up and I'll probably never find it again.
00:43:46But sure enough, I found some weird thing where Buddha is projecting his something, whatever
00:43:53you call it, that they project onto a cow.
00:43:56But the minister who's telling this nonsense for crowd appeal doesn't think about all of
00:44:03the children who might go try that.
00:44:05What if your kid gets trampled by a bull because this ridiculous minister has said something
00:44:09so ridiculous?
00:44:11I can remember as a child when I first heard that I was living in the city, not near a bull.
00:44:17Well, had I heard that sermon a few years before and became excited by that, I might have been
00:44:23dead, but I really did want to try this.
00:44:26You know, if he can do it, I can do it too.
00:44:28We can have that same level of faith.
00:44:30He told me we can have that same level of faith.
00:44:33And even though he's copying the Buddha and it's not a Christian theme, what he's doing,
00:44:39he's wrecking the lives of people and maybe even taking the lives of people.
00:44:44And the fact that this has spread and grown into what we see today with all of these different
00:44:50ministries, it really, I was thinking about that this morning, it really has turned into
00:44:55a type of religion where you want to, you want to live in a fantasy world and you want
00:45:03the fantasies to come real.
00:45:05And you're wishing so hard that those fantasies do come real, that you're not even paying
00:45:11attention to the reality of what's actually happening in the world around you.
00:45:15And in doing so, you're robbing the lives of the people as they're living, because literally
00:45:21they're watching the world go by, not caring of the actual world that's happening.
00:45:25They really want the fantasy.
00:45:27And we know that people have died.
00:45:29You know, many people have died.
00:45:31I don't know how many died throughout Branham's ministry, but because Freeman's view was so extreme,
00:45:36you know, absolutely forbidding medicine and medication and hospital help.
00:45:42We know that a lot of people did die.
00:45:44And then if you have any objection to it at all, of course, you're just ostracized and
00:45:50blackballed.
00:45:50You're accused of being faithless.
00:45:53And everybody rallies around the pastor, the teacher with this touch not mine anointed nonsense.
00:45:58And we've covered that before.
00:46:02You know, they use Moses and other biblical persons.
00:46:06Peter, you know, Paul put a curse on Elemis, the sorcerer, and he was blind for a while.
00:46:12And for some reason, these ministers think they're on the same level.
00:46:16And of course, you're not.
00:46:17You don't have any authority to put a curse on anybody.
00:46:19But they say that they do.
00:46:21And then they'll tell a story about how, coincidentally, the week after somebody said something
00:46:28against him, something bad happened to them.
00:46:30And so it must be because of that.
00:46:33And nobody ever checks to verify.
00:46:36Now, did that really happen?
00:46:37And was it really caused by what they said against the minister?
00:46:41They just are out there like little gullible sheep.
00:46:44And I don't mean to criticize them because they have been trained and programmed with this
00:46:49dark, dark, dark theology.
00:46:51And that's not even what the New Testament's message of a Christian pastor or minister is.
00:47:00It's actually just the opposite.
00:47:02Actually, when you read the New Testament, Jesus talks about a good shepherd is the one
00:47:07who would leave the ninety and nine who are okay and go out there searching for that one
00:47:17lost sheep.
00:47:18And that's the message that Jesus gave that he would do as a shepherd.
00:47:24And all pastors, according to first Peter five or under shepherds under him, well, they
00:47:30would have the same responsibility.
00:47:33And it was never that way at faith assembly.
00:47:36They almost relish the fact that someone strayed, according to them, and departed from their doctrine
00:47:43of healing, according to them, and ended up in the doctor.
00:47:46And even if they died, you know, I actually felt.
00:47:51People thought their message was vindicated rather than it breaking their heart.
00:47:57Like, yep, he went to the doctor.
00:47:59He leaned to the arm of the flesh and look, he died.
00:48:02And they would use those as scare tactics that never broke their heart.
00:48:06Like, why couldn't I get to that person and help them before they died?
00:48:11We know Pamela Meany died and Hobart didn't care.
00:48:14Didn't care about that one bit.
00:48:16You know, the only thing he cared about was the pulpit that he had.
00:48:20And that was the voice.
00:48:21You know, that was his place.
00:48:24Hobart, if someone had a problem and left the church, Hobart never went looking for anyone.
00:48:30He would always say, well, don't let the door hit you on the way out.
00:48:36He would say, there are four people standing in line to get your seat anyway.
00:48:41You know, he would mock the people that left.
00:48:44That's not a Christian minister.
00:48:46Come on.
00:48:47There's no way anyone can argue.
00:48:50That is the attitude that a Christian pastor over his church should have.
00:48:54The attitude is, you'll drop everything you're doing and go seek and save that one that's
00:49:00lost out there.
00:49:01The one that has, you know, lost their way.
00:49:05Someone else I talked to this week, John, is a, I'll just say he is a relative of one
00:49:10of the main tier one ministers there.
00:49:14And he contacted me and we traded some messages and then we ended up actually talking on the
00:49:20phone and he was just a delightful person to talk to.
00:49:23And he said, so, so here's my story, you know, he said, you know, I, I was, I was at the glory
00:49:30barn back in the glory barn days.
00:49:32My mom and I, I don't know where his real father was at the time, but my mom and I ended up there.
00:49:38My mom married someone at faith assembly, went on to have nine children with this man.
00:49:47So these are stepbrothers and stepsisters of his.
00:49:51He was molested by his stepfather that his mother had married, a member of faith assembly.
00:49:58And so he said, here I am with this kind of baggage that I'm trying to carry around for
00:50:05the rest of my life. He said, even when he was at faith assembly, he said, guess what?
00:50:10He said, you know, you told some stories about somebody who worked in faith ministries and
00:50:14publications, stealing money out of the offering box because they were so poor and got caught and
00:50:21had to pay back and repent and did it on more than one occasion.
00:50:26He said, I'm guilty of that. He said, I stole out of the offering box.
00:50:29He said, you know what else? I knew who the richer sisters, families,
00:50:34these couples were in the church. He said, I'd steal out of the ladies purses sitting right
00:50:39there in the chair at faith assembly. And I said, I am so sorry to hear that that is
00:50:49that you were put in the position because of the poverty of your family, the large number of
00:50:57children. He said, we were so poor. We didn't have any money. He said, we couldn't pay our bills.
00:51:01We didn't have enough money to buy food. And trace that back to Hobart forbidding all of these
00:51:07jobs and you can't have an education and the woman can't work out of the home and birth control is
00:51:13wrong. And you've got to have all these children. All of this is just tightly wound in a ball
00:51:19that makes for this religious cult that faith assembly was. And so, you know, I just sympathize
00:51:26with someone like that. And I think he has experienced, you know, and people will say,
00:51:30do you think that's right to steal from women's purses? We don't even have to answer that question.
00:51:35Everybody knows the answer to that, but that's not what this is about. What this is about is why did
00:51:40a 14 or 15 year old teenage boy feel the need to do that? Had he come from a stable home life
00:51:48with loving, grounded parents, with a stepfather, not molesting him, not having to battle, you know,
00:51:57with nine and maybe more, I don't know, half brothers and half sisters with him not having to do
00:52:05that. You know, maybe you turn out differently in life. And who do I blame for this? I blame Hobart
00:52:10Freeman. I blame Hobart Freeman. And he kept finding ways, John, to indoctrinate people with his view
00:52:17on healing. To go back where you started earlier, which was a great point at the very beginning of
00:52:22this. Hobart, because he just wanted to force the people to believe his view of divine healing,
00:52:30he had a message entitled Healing is Easier. And he actually had this same theme in a lot of his
00:52:37different faith and healing teachings. And it was based on an account in the gospel narratives
00:52:43where the Pharisees and Sadducees are offended at Jesus. And there is a man who is lame. And he says
00:52:56to the Pharisees and Sadducees, what's harder, forgiving the man's sins or healing him of his
00:53:03lameness? But to show you that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins, he turned to the lame
00:53:10man and said, take up your bed and walk. And so Hobart got a message from that. Watch this
00:53:16psychology and how he hooked people with that, where he said, healing, believing for healing is
00:53:24easier than believing for salvation. Now, that's not what the passage teaches, but that's what he gets
00:53:30from that with his message entitled Healing is Easier. Believing for healing is easier than believing
00:53:38for salvation. So consequently, if you can't even believe God to heal your eyes, you have no proof
00:53:46that you can and you have no assurance that you can believe God for salvation. And he would also teach
00:53:53that to be raptured, you mentioned both of these things earlier, John, to be raptured takes faith.
00:54:01You have to have faith. And if you don't have faith, you won't be raptured. And if you don't
00:54:08have enough faith to be healed and keep yourself out of the hospital, there's no way that you have
00:54:15enough faith to be raptured. And that's why when you have trained people that way, that's why they are
00:54:21trying so hard and to go to the extremes that they do to be physically healed because they are
00:54:28questioning themselves in their own mind. Well, am I even a Christian? According to Hobart,
00:54:35if I can't trust God for simple things like divine healing, then how can I have any assurance that I
00:54:44can trust Jesus for my salvation? And how can I know that God is going to rapture me because that
00:54:50takes a special kind of faith? One of the people I talked to this week brought up this business of
00:54:56rapture faith. And he said, what do you think of that? And I said, that is nonsense. I said, it
00:55:01doesn't take any special faith. If you are a believer and you are alive at the second advent,
00:55:07it's automatic. And if you're dead at the second advent, your body will be resurrected. It's
00:55:13automatic. That comes with you're being born again and you're being a Christian. It doesn't take
00:55:19level eight faith versus a level three and a half faith. It just takes being a believer. All of these
00:55:26things are simple, simple, simple, but Hobart complicated it. And he was always looking for
00:55:33new ways to indoctrinate and new ways to force people to do what he wanted them to do. And I know
00:55:41I ended one text exchange, I think over the weekend with a sister from another state, not the one I read
00:55:48from earlier who had told me these horrific stories that she and her family had been through. And I
00:55:56said, in this regard, in the regards that we're speaking right now, where Hobart put the pressure
00:56:02on the people, die, you know, be like Job, though he slay me, yet will I trust him, die rather than go
00:56:09to a doctor. In this regard, Hobart Freeman was a monster. In this regard, he was a monster because he was
00:56:16not in your home watching the suffering and the pain and the lack of comfort that the sheep and
00:56:25his congregation had. And he just didn't care. He only cared that he had a pulpit and that he had a
00:56:31platform and that he was going to preach what he wanted to preach. You know, what they taught was so
00:56:36backwards that whenever I have somebody who was never in it, who is a Christian, who comes across this
00:56:41and they're filled with questions like, what in the world is this mess, man? And how did it develop
00:56:46into this bigger mess we see today? It's hard to explain to them just how backwards all of it is.
00:56:54And you can't, like they'll go, they'll try to find, well, what's the root source? What's the root cause
00:56:57of this mess? And there isn't a root source. There are themes that are the root source. I would say if
00:57:04there was a root source, it was that many passages were taken completely out of context. And this is
00:57:14another podcast for another day, but the Pentecostal style of taking a single passage and preaching a
00:57:20whole sermon on a verse rather than the summary of what that verse is about, they twist things out
00:57:28of context with this. And you can twist it any way that you want if you just take a single phrase.
00:57:33I mentioned the pastor's kids earlier. There are a few pastor's kids that I know that love the verse
00:57:41from Acts, what is it, Acts 16. It said, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you and your household
00:57:48will be saved. So they're saved immediately because their father believed, right? So his whole household
00:57:53is saved. They don't have to do anything. They can live however they want. And what's funny
00:57:58is that's the way that Hobart and Branham and all of these guys are preaching. They're taking a verse
00:58:03so far out of what its intended meaning is that you can make it say anything that you want. It can
00:58:08become any religion that you want. And it's backwards to this extent. You mentioned the good shepherd
00:58:17who leaves the flock to find that one lost lamb. There's many songs about this. I may have mentioned
00:58:23this on the podcast with you. If not, I did one of the other guys. But one of the doctrines that
00:58:28became a theme in latter rain from which all of this became built on was that a good shepherd will
00:58:36break the legs of its sheep so it can't do that again. That is an actual doctrine that I can show you
00:58:42actual statements. I can show you sermon summaries that is talking about the good shepherd that will
00:58:47snap the legs of its sheep so it can never do that again. And think of what that means. And
00:58:53it, you know, I've, I've talked with people who grew up in that doctrine and say, well, that's just a
00:58:57doctrine, but no man put into practice with everything else that they taught. That is really
00:59:03the sum of what they taught in many various different ways. They really want to manipulate.
00:59:08They want to control you. They don't want you to wear glasses because their doctrine may,
00:59:13you know, whatever does, whatever went through his head. I don't even know how to put
00:59:16that into words, but what he's doing is he's breaking the legs of a sheep and what you end
00:59:21up with, like you and I have noticed, there's a lot of people who have now broken legs and they're
00:59:27trying to learn how to walk again. Hopefully this podcast is helping some of them start to walk.
00:59:32So thank you for doing this. You're welcome. Thank you, John. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and
00:59:37you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org.
00:59:42For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
00:59:47from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:17Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:22So that's it for us. Thank you!
01:00:23I haven't noticed.
01:00:25And I'll see you again, anyway.
01:00:27And while we're on Amazon, you can see that.
01:00:30We're going to see you again.
01:00:32We're going to see you again.
01:00:32Well, I'm seeing you again.
01:00:35We're going to see you again.
01:00:36I'm seeing you again.
01:00:38I'm seeing you again, and you'll see you again again.
01:00:42I'm seeing you again.