- 5/6/2025
Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Chino's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
John and Chino discuss the extreme healing doctrines taught by Hobart Freeman and how these beliefs impacted the lives of his followers. The conversation begins with a personal reflection on minor illnesses and segues into the problematic theological assumption that miraculous events in the Bible must be normative for all believers. Chino shares how Freeman’s teachings, particularly on healing and the rejection of medicine, led to serious consequences—including people avoiding basic treatments like wearing glasses or seeking help for life-threatening conditions.
The discussion critiques how specific verses—such as those about Moses’ eyesight or Paul’s handkerchiefs—were used to create rigid, harmful doctrines. John and Chino unpack how misinterpreting isolated biblical stories into universal rules fostered cognitive dissonance and spiritual control. They reflect on how these interpretations promoted fear, secrecy, and even legal violations, like driving without a license. The conversation closes with a sobering look at the human cost of bad theology and a call for common sense, humility, and context-based biblical reading.
00:00 Introduction
01:02 Hobart Freeman’s faith healing obsession and rejection of medicine
04:46 Death as proof of faith? Challenging the logic behind “dying in belief”
08:06 Misusing scripture to support divine health and immortality
12:10 Moses didn’t die? Breaking down Freeman’s misuse of Deuteronomy 34
16:41 How misreading scripture produces controversy and spiritual harm
20:11 Marching around farms and other misapplied biblical stories
25:09 Prayer cloths and magical thinking—Acts 19 misused
30:38 Cult leader authority, fear tactics, and the psychology of control
36:05 God's judgment or coincidence? Post hoc fallacies in faith circles
41:04 Pushing healing on others—how misguided witnessing becomes harmful
44:06 The eyeglasses dilemma—Freeman's doctrine versus lived reality
52:22 Vision tests, cognitive dissonance, and forced double standards
57:51 Final reflections on misused scripture and broken lives
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
https://www.patreon.com/branham
Available on Spotify, Google, and Apple Podcasts:
https://william-branham.org/podcast
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Chino's YouTube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/@chinodross
John and Chino discuss the extreme healing doctrines taught by Hobart Freeman and how these beliefs impacted the lives of his followers. The conversation begins with a personal reflection on minor illnesses and segues into the problematic theological assumption that miraculous events in the Bible must be normative for all believers. Chino shares how Freeman’s teachings, particularly on healing and the rejection of medicine, led to serious consequences—including people avoiding basic treatments like wearing glasses or seeking help for life-threatening conditions.
The discussion critiques how specific verses—such as those about Moses’ eyesight or Paul’s handkerchiefs—were used to create rigid, harmful doctrines. John and Chino unpack how misinterpreting isolated biblical stories into universal rules fostered cognitive dissonance and spiritual control. They reflect on how these interpretations promoted fear, secrecy, and even legal violations, like driving without a license. The conversation closes with a sobering look at the human cost of bad theology and a call for common sense, humility, and context-based biblical reading.
00:00 Introduction
01:02 Hobart Freeman’s faith healing obsession and rejection of medicine
04:46 Death as proof of faith? Challenging the logic behind “dying in belief”
08:06 Misusing scripture to support divine health and immortality
12:10 Moses didn’t die? Breaking down Freeman’s misuse of Deuteronomy 34
16:41 How misreading scripture produces controversy and spiritual harm
20:11 Marching around farms and other misapplied biblical stories
25:09 Prayer cloths and magical thinking—Acts 19 misused
30:38 Cult leader authority, fear tactics, and the psychology of control
36:05 God's judgment or coincidence? Post hoc fallacies in faith circles
41:04 Pushing healing on others—how misguided witnessing becomes harmful
44:06 The eyeglasses dilemma—Freeman's doctrine versus lived reality
52:22 Vision tests, cognitive dissonance, and forced double standards
57:51 Final reflections on misused scripture and broken lives
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:00Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:43And with me, I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Chino Ross,
00:00:47pastor and the voice of The Understanding Scripture and Truth by Chino D. Ross YouTube channel.
00:00:54Chino, it's good to be back and to talk about all things Hobart Freeman and faith healing.
00:00:58And I managed to catch a cold over the last week, and so I've been fighting through it.
00:01:04And it always comes into my head, and you actually just made the joke,
00:01:08where's William Branham when we need him?
00:01:10Where's Hobart Freeman when we need him?
00:01:12And then I always go to the next thought, which is, you know,
00:01:16out of all of those thousands and thousands of people that went through the faith line,
00:01:20you don't see anybody who was cured of the common cold.
00:01:24That was one thing that he could not cure, man.
00:01:27It runs for two weeks, and it runs its course.
00:01:30And interestingly, when you're in these movements, you try to heal yourself without medicine
00:01:35so that you can claim the spirit or the power or whatever it is you claim.
00:01:40But you often go to outside remedies.
00:01:43And my wife gave me this voodoo oil.
00:01:46Well, I'm joking about voodoo, but it is one of these essential oil crazy things
00:01:51that I always laugh at her when she's doing it.
00:01:54I say she's like a witch doctor, but this one actually helped me to breathe.
00:01:58And so today we can have the podcast.
00:02:01Well, I'm sorry, John, that you're struggling with that.
00:02:04My wife battles allergies, although it wasn't a cold for her this spring.
00:02:09It was just some allergies.
00:02:12So let's see.
00:02:14I think last time we were talking about how Hobart, I think, had taken a real happy story
00:02:20and almost turned it into a horror story, where I do think there is some message in the New Testament
00:02:26about healing.
00:02:27It's too big of a doctrine.
00:02:29It's seen too often.
00:02:30It's seen in Jesus' ministry.
00:02:31It's seen in the early church, where people were prayed for for serious illnesses or deformities.
00:02:39And they were either healed or a miracle was performed in their life.
00:02:43But for some reason, Hobart took that, as I said, a happy story, turned it into a horror flick,
00:02:51where it went from the privilege that we have of trusting the Lord, looking to him, praying for healing.
00:02:58It went from that to, you know, you better do that and better never try anything other than that.
00:03:04You better not try to use anything out of a bottle like you have there, because it's demonic influence.
00:03:10It's not trusting God.
00:03:12And, you know, it just became a mess.
00:03:14And so his message became an extreme message of healing because he was so preoccupied with it.
00:03:23And I think that was one thing that set him apart and probably drew some people to him from the charismatic world out there.
00:03:32Because you had your Kenneth Hagans and Kenneth Copelands, and those people were going to the doctors, you know, themselves.
00:03:39Kenneth Copeland, I think, is still alive today, barely.
00:03:42But he's on, you know, all kinds of medication and goes to the hospital.
00:03:47And so I think some people would think, well, what's the use of having any kind of faith message, as Copeland teaches?
00:03:56I mean, it is strong.
00:03:57You believe God and he will heal you.
00:04:01Well, he doesn't heal Copeland.
00:04:02So then you wonder about that.
00:04:04But so then what Hobart did, I think this was a part of his draw, is he had an extreme view.
00:04:11He was totally preoccupied with healing.
00:04:14And it was not God and the doctors.
00:04:16It wasn't the Bible and pills.
00:04:18It was God only.
00:04:19It was live, die, sink, or swim.
00:04:22I will trust him.
00:04:23And he became known for that.
00:04:25And you're never going to attract the numbers that Kenneth Copeland or Benny Hinn have attracted.
00:04:32But you are going to attract some people who hear what they think is the logic of that and say, well, that makes sense to me.
00:04:42I'm going to just trust God only.
00:04:45And Hobart became preoccupied with it.
00:04:48And it's what harmed and killed many people under his ministry, many of his followers.
00:04:55And, of course, it's what ended up killing him was his extreme view on faith and healing.
00:05:03And, you know, John, I've actually heard some of the handful of Freemanites that are still wandering around out there.
00:05:10And there are a few that are still supporting Hobart, very supportive of him.
00:05:14And I've actually heard them say, well, you know, I admire and totally respect Dr. Freeman because he died practicing what he preached.
00:05:25You know, there was not any trace of medicine in him.
00:05:28He actually went down to death's door and then stepped over on the other side of the veil and died trying to trust God, not being healed, but not going to the doctor.
00:05:38And they said, I have a lot of admiration and a lot of respect.
00:05:41And I tried to say to them, I don't think that that is what warrants admiration and respect.
00:05:50I understand what they're saying, that at least he died practicing what he preached.
00:05:54But people have died practicing what they preach all the time.
00:05:58The hijackers at 9-11, and I'm not comparing Hobart to them, but they died practicing what they preached.
00:06:04It's simply saying you have a belief and you're going to die for it.
00:06:09That doesn't make your belief right.
00:06:12You know, that doesn't justify your belief.
00:06:15It just means you weren't willing to compromise.
00:06:18So what Hobart would do is he had this extreme fanatical view of no medicine, no drugs, no doctors, no surgery.
00:06:31And really this homeopathic path, even that he would not go down because I know that from what he said on the tapes.
00:06:41But a woman contacted me who, when Hobart was sick at the very end of his life, she actually had made up this special brew.
00:06:51And, you know, most of these homemade brews taste horrible.
00:06:54But that may be a sign of their effectiveness.
00:06:58I don't know.
00:06:59But she made it up and carried it over to his house.
00:07:01That's how well she knew Hobart in June.
00:07:04And she said, Hobart, who was really bad at all, he took a little smell of it and he touched a little on his tongue.
00:07:14And he said, oh, that tastes awful.
00:07:15No, he rejected that and didn't want that.
00:07:18And I doubt that would have cured his cardiovascular disease and his gangrene and his diabetes and everything else he had.
00:07:27But no, he wasn't going to go down any path like that.
00:07:31He did not trust in that kind of medication.
00:07:34He just wanted to trust God.
00:07:36And a lot of this, rather than being based on actual clear teaching that says these are the steps to be healed, what I found in listening to so many of his messages, and it's not only true of Hobart.
00:07:52Let me say it's true of all of these charismatic ministers out there, is they will take an extreme stand based on some unusual or unique passage in the Bible.
00:08:04So what I mean by that is they'd find a story, something that happened to one of the prophets or an apostle or someone in the early church.
00:08:11They would find that.
00:08:13For instance, Deuteronomy 34, the very end of the Pentateuch, we have a little editorial comment about the state of the man Moses at the end of his life.
00:08:23He was 120 years old, we read in Deuteronomy 34.
00:08:28His eye was not dim.
00:08:29His natural force was not abated.
00:08:31Hobart would talk about that all the time.
00:08:34So that's an example of what I'm saying, where these men will find a text somewhere in Scripture of a person who has experienced some incredible, unique, physical feat or gift from God.
00:08:49In this case, his age, the acuity of his vision, his strength that he still possess over 100 years of age, and then try to make that universal or make that apply to them.
00:09:05So Hobart had a very interesting message, a tape that he did in 1973 from Romans 8.
00:09:14I've referenced it before, but we're going to play a little clip from this.
00:09:18It was entitled, The Law of Life and the Law of Death.
00:09:24The Law of Life and the Law of Death, Romans 8.
00:09:26Now, that's a passage I think a lot of people are familiar with that.
00:09:29It starts off, there is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
00:09:34And the next verse says, for the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
00:09:45The question of health, I'm not talking about healing.
00:09:48I'm saying health tonight.
00:09:49Health and longevity, long life, well-being, strength, prosperity.
00:09:56It isn't a question, are these things possible?
00:09:59Why, Moses proved they were possible.
00:10:01Well, 120, he didn't die, God took him.
00:10:04The scriptures are plain.
00:10:05They say his natural strength was not abated, his eye was not dim, neither his natural strength abated at 120 years of age.
00:10:14And he's no rare example, Caleb, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob.
00:10:19The antediluvians before the flood lived for millenniums, some of them, almost a millennium.
00:10:26Noah was 500 when he was called to preach.
00:10:31Yes, he was, 120 years in building the ark and lived, what was it, 140 years after that.
00:10:37So the background to this is the story of Moses.
00:10:40And right in the middle of that, as you hear what Hobart is saying, he said, you know, we're not just, we're not, we're going beyond divine healing.
00:10:48We're going beyond that to divine health.
00:10:52Every now and then, he would get in one of these messages on this precipice where he's almost going over to the other side to say that there is no reason a person in Christ should physically die.
00:11:09Your cells are being renewed, your skin on the outside of your body is being renewed.
00:11:16Moses' vision was perfect.
00:11:19His body was perfect.
00:11:20He would go to Psalm 103.
00:11:24He quoted that.
00:11:26He said every morning, the first five verses of Psalm 103, that he renews my youth like the eagles.
00:11:31He was always talking about his youth being renewed.
00:11:35And there in that clip, he's talking about Noah was 500 years old before God even called him to preach.
00:11:42And so you're hearing these stories and you're going, well, why am I dying when I'm 65?
00:11:49Why can't I live to be 120 or 500 or Methuselah's age?
00:11:53He talks about the patriarchs in the early chapters of Genesis, that they lived to these great ages.
00:12:01And so when he's talking about Moses, what I wanted people to hear in that clip is this was an exact quote from Hobart.
00:12:11He's talking about Moses and he said, he didn't die.
00:12:16God took him.
00:12:18The scriptures are plain.
00:12:22Well, actually, the scriptures are plain.
00:12:26And actually, he did die.
00:12:28And actually, that's what the scriptures say.
00:12:31Even in the verse that he's always referencing, Deuteronomy 34 and verse 7, which ends by saying,
00:12:39his eye was not dim and his natural force was not abated, the first half of that verse says,
00:12:45and Moses was 120 years old when he died.
00:12:51When he died.
00:12:53They can go back and listen to the clip you just played.
00:12:56Hobart said, Moses didn't die.
00:12:58The Lord took him.
00:12:59The scriptures are plain.
00:13:00Do you know what I see from that, John?
00:13:04I see like what we saw last week with his use of Ecclesiasticus in the Apocrypha 38, 15.
00:13:11He is so locked in in his mind on Moses' age and his vision and his physical health that he's just oblivious to what the text is actually saying.
00:13:21And it said Moses died.
00:13:23It said he died.
00:13:24Hobart said he didn't die.
00:13:26The scriptures are plain.
00:13:27The scriptures are plain.
00:13:29And he did die.
00:13:31So are you going to believe Hobart?
00:13:33Are we going to believe what the last chapter of Deuteronomy has to say?
00:13:39And I just want people to understand what's probably happening here is, as I said, he is so zoned in on vision and strength.
00:13:49Hobart thought he wouldn't die, knew he would live to be at least 70, based on a verse in Psalm 90, but he died at age 64.
00:14:01His health was not getting better.
00:14:03It was getting worse.
00:14:04But because you were looking for proof for your views rather than truth in the scripture, it's easy just to jump over that verse and even two verses prior in verse five.
00:14:18So Moses, the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord.
00:14:25And this is a wonderful editorial comment added by whoever collected Moses' writings and put this in there and said, there's not a prophet risen in Israel since Moses, like this man who knew God face to face.
00:14:38And God performed all these miracles through him, but yet charismatics and Pentecostals have seen the end of Deuteronomy 34, 7, honed in on that for eyesight and for physical strength.
00:14:53You know, I'm not a preacher and I never tried or wanted to be.
00:14:57I usually leave that for people like you and Charles.
00:15:00But whenever I was leaving the message call, I began to realize that many of the arguments made were arguments over nothing.
00:15:10There was really no cause to be so upset over taking some, like you gave this example here, some phrase that, you know, he could argue Moses didn't die to his breath turned and blew in the face and people can still read in the book.
00:15:24So it's like this argument that shouldn't even be in the first place.
00:15:27And I was reading the Bible over and over.
00:15:31I've mentioned this several times.
00:15:32I lost count between 10 and 15 times I read the Bible, trying to wash all of this stuff out of my head.
00:15:38Well, after about the 10th time, I realized that the words had greater meaning than I was able to comprehend because of the language barrier between what I knew and the king, the old queen's English that was in the King James Bible.
00:15:55And so I've got back in this room over here.
00:15:59I've got the Strong's Concordance that became my friend.
00:16:02And then somebody showed me online.
00:16:04There are all these study tools and found the interlinear Bible.
00:16:07And so I started going through, this was very time consuming, but I started going through some of the New Testament reading what the Greek words meant as best as I can understand.
00:16:18I'm not an expert, but I began to see that some of the words and phrases, if you really understood what the Greek context was,
00:16:27it's even far more powerful than what we read simplified in the Queen's English of the King James Bible.
00:16:34The example that I'm going towards is, it hit me like a brick wall when I read 1 Timothy 6, 3 through 5.
00:16:43In the English Standard Version is the one that I think I like best for this verse, but it says,
00:16:48Because if anyone teaches a different doctrine and doesn't agree with the sound words of Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
00:16:56he's puffed up with conceit and understands nothing.
00:16:59That one passage, just those few sentences, sums up the entire movement to a T, every single aspect of it.
00:17:28And what's funny is, it's so powerful if you read and understand the Greek language, it's even more powerful than this.
00:17:34This one paragraph is calling out the leaders of the movement, the audience who's paying attention to the leaders in the movement.
00:17:42The whole shebang is being called out as, you guys are messed up.
00:17:48Isn't that appropriate?
00:17:50Isn't that appropriate?
00:17:51That's a great passage, Sean.
00:17:53I just think it's a really bad hermeneutic that's been followed by Hobart Freeman for sure,
00:18:00and a lot of other charismatic preachers who try to find a verse or a story in the Old Testament or in the New Testament,
00:18:08and then just apply it universally or across the board.
00:18:13I can remember being a part of a charismatic church in Memphis when I was a teenager,
00:18:19and it was somewhat of a satellite of Faith Assembly.
00:18:22Maybe later on if we have time, not today, but I mean in future podcasts,
00:18:26we can talk about the different types of satellite groups from Faith Assembly.
00:18:32But there were some that were maybe the truest satellite where there is no local minister there at all.
00:18:38It's just a group of people, and a minister travels and teaches them regularly from Faith Assembly.
00:18:43This was back in the day.
00:18:44You know, that all is dead and gone now, thankfully.
00:18:47There were other types of satellites where there was like a local teacher, elder, maybe part-time pastor,
00:18:55but the people were really waiting for the traveling minister from Faith Assembly who's coming from,
00:19:01you know, Rome, the papacy, the true center of truth, to come and teach them.
00:19:06And then there were groups like the one I was a part of that did not have any ministers travel from Faith Assembly,
00:19:12but had definitely learned the faith message and all the other stuff from Hobart and had set up his own little church.
00:19:20And this was in Memphis when I was a teenager, and that's where I spent a couple of years attending church.
00:19:25But they had come to Memphis from, I think, New Orleans, from Louisiana, and had claimed a farm out in Collierville.
00:19:36And there was going to be a Christian farm, a Christian retreat.
00:19:39And, you know, that was a big thing back in the early and mid-70s to have a farm and have a Christian retreat
00:19:45and have speakers come in there and have workshops.
00:19:48And maybe that still happened today.
00:19:51I don't know.
00:19:52But it was a big thing back then.
00:19:54And so they had put some money down, I think, on this farm and needed to make a final payment or whatever.
00:20:01And I wasn't a part of this scenario, but I heard stories about it.
00:20:08But the way they were going to get the money to pay for the farm was to march around the farm seven times,
00:20:19like the children of Israel did, around the walls of Jericho.
00:20:24So here again, John, it's just so prevalent in these circles.
00:20:28You find a story in the Bible that is a fantastic, miraculous event.
00:20:34And it's almost like you trivialize it because you generalize it.
00:20:39And you say, well, my wife and I want this home, and we don't have enough money,
00:20:43so we're going to sneak over there when no one's home and march around it seven times.
00:20:47And hopefully the walls won't fall down.
00:20:49Hopefully the Lord will just send us the money down, and we can go purchase a home.
00:20:55You know, that is a completely bad hermeneutic, to have read that story about Jericho
00:21:01and think you can apply it to your farm or to your home.
00:21:04But this is exactly what these guys are doing.
00:21:08That must be why we missed out on our first home, because I only marched six times around it.
00:21:14Well, there are so many of these examples.
00:21:17That same church, we used to have a little song.
00:21:19I'm just telling you things that come to mind that are good examples of this bad hermeneutic.
00:21:24from Matthew 10, where Jesus sent the apostles out and said,
00:21:29go heal the sick, cleanse the leper, raise the dead, cast out demons,
00:21:33freely you've received, freely give.
00:21:36Wow.
00:21:37And we would sing that as our song.
00:21:38Heal the sick and raise the dead and cast out demons.
00:21:44Wow.
00:21:45You know that.
00:21:46And so we took that.
00:21:47Just listen to this and watch how, watch what people's hermeneutics will force them into.
00:21:55We took that and thought, because it is a verse in the Bible, it has to apply to me.
00:22:03And that's not the way the Bible is written.
00:22:05There are some verses that apply to us and there are some that simply don't.
00:22:10But we would take that verse, say that applies to us.
00:22:12But, you know, as I got a few years under my belt and I would read the context of Matthew 10,
00:22:19I would go, but we're preaching in on street corners in Memphis, Tennessee.
00:22:25And the passage says, don't preach to any Gentiles or any Samaritans.
00:22:31Go only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
00:22:34So we're violating the passage, doing what it said don't do.
00:22:39And after the verse that I quoted there, Jesus told them, he said, don't take a change of clothes.
00:22:46That means no socks, no extra underwear.
00:22:49Don't take a change of clothes.
00:22:51Don't take another pair of shoes.
00:22:53He said, don't even take any money.
00:22:55No script.
00:22:55Don't take any money on your trip with you.
00:22:59We didn't practice any of that.
00:23:01You know, it's interesting how we want to cherry pick, right?
00:23:05We want to pick what we want to believe out of the passage and apply to us and say, well, no, I, you know, I live in Kentucky or Indiana or Tennessee.
00:23:14I don't know any Jewish people I can preach to.
00:23:16I'm going to preach to Gentiles.
00:23:17And so we're going to violate that part.
00:23:19We're going to carry definitely at least a couple of pair of extra underwear and pairs of socks as we travel and definitely money or a credit card when actually Jesus said, don't do that.
00:23:29So I know that is maybe sounds a little extreme, but it's really not.
00:23:35It's exactly what people do going through the Bible, looking for something that happened to someone, you know, an axe head that floated back in Elisha's ministry.
00:23:44And so you actually dropped your boat motor off the back of your boat.
00:23:48You didn't secure it.
00:23:49And so you put a stick out there in the water and swirl it around and you want your boat motor to swim and surface and come back over and attach itself to the back of the boat.
00:23:59I'm not saying because I want to make sure I cover all my bases.
00:24:03I'm not saying if a person was lost in the middle of nowhere and they had no money and no cell phone service and their car is out of gas, that you can't ask God to get me from where I am to where I need to be in this car.
00:24:19And God may well do that.
00:24:22But that would be an extreme, unusual case.
00:24:26And we know that is not the normal way that people are using all these passages.
00:24:30When they think of the laying on of hands, which the Bible does talk about, the laying on of hands for healing, I think just it came to everyone's mind.
00:24:40Well, if that works, why can't I lay hands on my washing machine or my dryer or my lawnmower, my weed eater or my car engine or anything?
00:24:49Why can't I lay hands on it and heal, quote unquote, it?
00:24:54It's the same principle.
00:24:55It's the same bad hermeneutic.
00:24:57And, you know, it's just like a going to a Baskin Robbins store.
00:25:02What is your flavor of ice cream?
00:25:04Just whatever it is you can have.
00:25:07And so before I go to where I really want to go today, let me go to one other really famous, popular example.
00:25:14And I know you have experience with this, John, in your background.
00:25:19And that is in Acts 19, in Paul's ministry, when he spent three years in Ephesus in Acts 19.
00:25:29Paul was he was a leather worker slash tent maker.
00:25:34He provided his own living and the living of those that travel with him.
00:25:40He actually earned his keep because he was very skilled in the things that he could do.
00:25:45And when he was not preaching, he was earning money on the side, making tents, making saddles, making shoes, making belts, making different kinds of apparatus out of leather and other fabrics.
00:25:59And he was good at that.
00:26:00And so in doing that, he would wear a sweat band around his head.
00:26:06He would have different handkerchiefs that he would use to wipe the sweat off of him.
00:26:10And we're told in Acts 19 that those articles of sweaty clothing that came off the Apostle Paul were actually taken to people who were sick and people who were demon possessed.
00:26:31Just listen to this, what was accomplished in Paul's ministry.
00:26:35And when that sweaty headband or handkerchief was placed on them, they were healed and demons were driven out of him.
00:26:46And so we have this long history.
00:26:49Hobart talked about the anointed prayer cloth all the time.
00:26:53They talked about the anointed prayer cloth all the time.
00:26:56And they would have people mail them things.
00:26:59And, you know, will you pray over this?
00:27:00And I'm going to put it under my husband's pillow at night.
00:27:03And the next morning he'll wake up born again.
00:27:07Here's another classic example of of taking something that applied to the Apostle Paul.
00:27:15That is so incredibly miraculous that because we lift it out and try to apply it to ourself, I don't think anybody slows down long enough to be amazed at the power of the Holy Spirit working through Paul's life.
00:27:32But do you know what the what the text, what Luke actually says in the text?
00:27:37He says that God wrought special miracles by Paul.
00:27:43In other words, it wasn't common.
00:27:46In other words, it wasn't every day that God did special miracles from Paul by simply taking this hat off of my head and laying it on a demon possessed person, totally possessed.
00:28:02And these demons come out of him because of the anointing that was on that my hat or Paul's handkerchief here.
00:28:09I think Luke is trying to make the point.
00:28:12This is not something that everyone can expect to happen or there's no way he would have prefaced it or introduced it by saying God wrought special.
00:28:23These are special miracles by the Apostle Paul.
00:28:27And yet it's become a very common thing throughout charismatic and Pentecostal history.
00:28:34Well, let's take the flip side of that.
00:28:35So if we're to believe that those miracles can happen through the articles of clothing and that that's the way, you know, a true apostle, well, then would that not also mean that that's how, you know, a false apostle?
00:28:48Well, because I wore those things constantly, man, growing up, my mother, we had a I had a piece of cloth.
00:28:54I'm not going to tell you from what it was off of William Branham's clothing, but it was my mother was hiding it.
00:29:01She would take a safety pin and put it in my pillowcase.
00:29:04Or I think one time I found it in my pants, but she would put it in random places as like this lucky charm, like a rabbit's foot to ward off demons.
00:29:13And I know several people who had chronic illnesses that they suffered with for their entire life.
00:29:19They died with those illnesses and they wore those clear prayer cloth constantly believing that it would eventually cure them of the illness.
00:29:27And it never did.
00:29:29So by the by that same logic, you can say, well, this is a false apostle.
00:29:33It didn't work.
00:29:34Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transition through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:29:47You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:29:55On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others with links to the paper, audio and digital versions of each book.
00:30:09You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:30:15If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top.
00:30:22And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
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00:30:33I grew up, John, you know, believing that when I was a teenager in my early 20s because Hobart said it.
00:30:40And so here's the problem with whenever a minister says things like that and doesn't encourage you to read the context in which it's found or just, you know, approach it with some common sense point of view.
00:30:55Then you just go away thinking, I've got biblical support.
00:30:59You know, everybody thinks I've got proof text.
00:31:01That's what they're called, proof text.
00:31:03I've got a proof text for anointed cloth I've got in Acts 19.
00:31:07And really, you don't have a proof text.
00:31:10And I'm not saying that someone hasn't somewhere somehow been healed by some anointed cloth.
00:31:16But what I am saying is that's not what that passage is teaching.
00:31:19The passage actually says that that was something that was special and unique to the Apostle Paul's ministry and deservedly so.
00:31:28Look at the conversion experience of that man on the road to Damascus in Acts 19 or Acts 9, rather.
00:31:36And look at the abundance of revelation he was given and look at the suffering that he went through preaching the gospel.
00:31:44And look at all that Paul endured in life to be the leading apostle, as it were, who ended up writing, as far as books are concerned, you know, a good part of our New Testament.
00:32:00A very special Christian in our past, and we are so thankful for, but I'm not Paul.
00:32:09I'm not Moses, neither are any of these other people.
00:32:14Again, to reference Moses, if you read the end of Deuteronomy 34, Moses did live to be 120.
00:32:20And he was as strong when he died as when he was 40.
00:32:23He needed it.
00:32:24He led this whole nation of people out of Egypt, led them through the wilderness against their will,
00:32:32and is standing on the banks of the Jordan River, basically looking into the promised land, not allowed to go in himself,
00:32:39but having carried the burden of these people for 38 years out there in the wilderness.
00:32:45He needed the strength.
00:32:46He needed the vision.
00:32:47He needed the age.
00:32:49He was a unique person.
00:32:51And I just think when we go and read these passages and then try to apply them to ourselves, we so trivialize the passage.
00:33:01We just trivialize it, and we just make it mundane.
00:33:05We make it available to every Christian that anybody can claim to be 120 and still have perfect vision,
00:33:13or anyone can claim to get an axe head to float or to raise a dead person.
00:33:22These are special miracles or the anointed claws that came from the Apostle Paul.
00:33:29But, you know, I think also, John, you know, I try to step back from this and look at what these ministers,
00:33:38Hobart Freeman in particular, what they have created, the type of mentality, the type of following,
00:33:47where they have really discouraged people from independent research and thinking and consideration.
00:33:55They have taken a swing at people's self-confidence by talking about all their degrees and how smart they are.
00:34:05And then if that doesn't work, then they use the time-honored, touch-not-mind-anointed approach
00:34:10to try to break down people's defenses and just turn people into zombies.
00:34:16And it's almost like, I know why the ministers do that, because they want to feel like I'm important
00:34:24and no one better challenge me.
00:34:27And again, while we're on this subject, again, they think they have proof text because they'll say,
00:34:32well, look at Acts 5.
00:34:34Ananias and Sapphira tried to lie to the Apostle Peter, and God just struck them dead.
00:34:40And Moses, the sons of Korah, rebelled against Moses.
00:34:44Moses said in Numbers 16, if you guys die a normal death, God hasn't spoken by me.
00:34:50But if the earth does a new thing and opens itself up and swallows you and your tents and all your goods,
00:34:58then we'll know I'm God's prophet and you aren't.
00:35:00And that's exactly what happened.
00:35:02And so these ministers, John, have seen these passages,
00:35:05and they somehow think they're Moses or Peter.
00:35:09And we are not.
00:35:10We are so far from those men.
00:35:13We're not those men.
00:35:14We don't have that calling.
00:35:16We don't have that anointing.
00:35:17We don't have those miracles.
00:35:19But we want that authority over people.
00:35:23You know, we still want to be able to threaten them.
00:35:25And it's almost as though there are some followers out there,
00:35:30and I've tried to think of the psychology involved in this who maybe want to be a part of a church
00:35:37where you have a minister up there and then you can go and tell your relatives and friends,
00:35:43well, my minister, you know, he is anointed of God.
00:35:46And he told a story where someone opposed him.
00:35:51And then the next week, you know, they die in a car crash.
00:35:55You know, that gives them this feeling of I've got, you know,
00:35:59I've got a really important, powerful, anointed minister.
00:36:03This just happened to me a few weeks ago.
00:36:07You know, I teach in just a small home Bible study.
00:36:10It's a regular weekly study.
00:36:12And one of the dear sisters there, and I wouldn't embarrass her for anything.
00:36:16I don't think she watches these podcasts, so I'm probably safe.
00:36:18And she's smart.
00:36:19She's a college professor.
00:36:21Her husband is a college professor.
00:36:23Most of the people there have earned doctorate degrees.
00:36:25I always say I'm the dumbest person in the room.
00:36:28All of you people are way smarter than I am.
00:36:30But I was teaching on, we're in Revelation 6,
00:36:34and I was on the fifth seal, the Tribulation Martyrs,
00:36:37where we see these people who have been killed,
00:36:42and they're crying out, Lord, how long until you judge and avenge our death?
00:36:46And so we were just working our way.
00:36:48We spent several weeks working our way through the appropriateness of that type of prayer for a Christian to make.
00:36:56And we looked at Jesus' example as he died on the cross.
00:37:00And Stephen, the first recorded church's martyr in the end of Acts 7,
00:37:05how he prayed on his dying day for his persecutors.
00:37:11And so after I got through teaching, after having said all this,
00:37:17this lovely, very educated woman said,
00:37:21well, Chino, do you have any stories where you feel like you were unjustly done, unjustly persecuted,
00:37:32and then God, you know, vindicated you afterwards?
00:37:38And my response to her, I think, was along this line.
00:37:43I said, you know,
00:37:43I don't think I'm not an important enough person for God to go around judging people
00:37:56because they disagreed with me over something.
00:37:59I said, do you see the height of arrogance that's going to be involved in thinking that you're important enough?
00:38:09You've got to be a pretty darn important person that if someone disagrees with your message,
00:38:14God just wipes them off the face of the earth.
00:38:17You know, he did that for Peter.
00:38:18He did that for Moses, but I'm neither one.
00:38:23You know, I said, maybe he has.
00:38:25I don't know.
00:38:26But I said, I would rather doubt it.
00:38:28And I said, I just don't think that's the way we're supposed to go through life.
00:38:32And I don't know that I said this to her,
00:38:34but I even thought of this later because I thought of these stories that these ministers had given
00:38:38that this newspaper editor or this writer or this church member disagreed with me
00:38:45and a month later they came down with whatever and died or they died in a car crash
00:38:51or they fell off a ladder and broke their leg.
00:38:55You're assuming that because that event happened after what you thought was opposition to you,
00:39:05that there's a causal relation between the two.
00:39:08And that's not necessarily true.
00:39:10It's you learn this in your early epistemology and logic classes.
00:39:15It's in a famous Latin phrase, post hoc ergo propter hoc.
00:39:19After this, therefore, because of this.
00:39:21That's not necessarily true at all.
00:39:24B may happen after A, but you've got to demonstrate that B happened because of A.
00:39:29And there's no way to demonstrate that we're just assuming.
00:39:32And if we're really vain, I think we're kind of hoping that the reason they suffered is because they opposed me.
00:39:41And, you know, we should never think that as a Christian.
00:39:44We should not think that we're important enough that God would do anything like that.
00:39:49I would pray, God, please don't punish anyone because you haven't punished me.
00:39:54And and I'm so grateful for that.
00:39:56And I don't want you to punish anyone else either.
00:39:59You know, I made the joke earlier about my wife's voodoo oils.
00:40:02And I was I was really hesitant to use the word voodoo because there are so many people listening who will just be up in arms that I said this.
00:40:10Oh, my gosh, he's using voodoo magic on his on his cold.
00:40:14Right.
00:40:14But what's interesting is the people who make that argument, and I've seen them even in the comment feeds, some of them will go down pathways to blame others for common words or common jokes.
00:40:28And they don't realize that the movement as a whole is practicing the same kind of thing.
00:40:32What you're describing is a curse.
00:40:34They were talking about putting a curse on the person who was in opposition.
00:40:38That's that's not the Christian way, man.
00:40:40And that might be the voodoo way, but that's not the Christian way.
00:40:44And what's you mentioned the word persecution?
00:40:47I want to hone in on that just a second, because persecution goes both ways.
00:40:53And I know that I'll probably get some backlash for this and I'll take it in the comment feeds if you want it.
00:40:58But persecution goes both ways.
00:41:01I was in the same type of movement.
00:41:04I did the same type of, quote unquote, witnessing to others.
00:41:08And what this essentially entails, you're in a divine healing cult.
00:41:13And when somebody who's not in your cult gets sick, you try to convince them that they can just name it and claim it.
00:41:21They can use the power of confession, even though they're not in the same religion.
00:41:26They don't they may be Christian, but they don't believe in the positive confession stuff.
00:41:30And you're trying to force it on them.
00:41:34And it's it's not an outright threat like it would be, you know, for the person.
00:41:39They said this person died because of this.
00:41:41But it's offensive to the people who aren't in that religion.
00:41:44And I didn't really grasp that until I was out of the cult for probably a year or so.
00:41:50And I was taking a road trip, a business trip with a friend of mine who is a Christian.
00:41:56And about an hour into it, I finally broke the ice and I said, I'm no longer in that religion that I was in.
00:42:02I didn't call it a cult at that time.
00:42:04And what's funny is he is one of the people that I had gone to and tried to, quote unquote, witness.
00:42:10And he said, John, I could tell you're under such a needless burden.
00:42:16I can't remember his exact words, but you're under such a burden with that because you were trying to, you know, spread this thought to me.
00:42:24And I read my Bible.
00:42:25So I know that this is not the gospel.
00:42:27This is by no means the same.
00:42:29And it was the first time that really struck me all of it.
00:42:34The fact that I was trying to push it on people who did not, they were not of the same mindset.
00:42:39They saw it offensive.
00:42:40If you mention this to a person who's dying of cancer, for example, and mention that, hey, you can just join our faith and name it and claim it and you can be healed.
00:42:50Well, the odds of them, especially if it's later stage cancer, the odds of that happening is very, very slim.
00:42:56You're just adding to their burdens.
00:42:58This is offensive.
00:42:59This is not helping them.
00:43:01But then me trying to push it, it was a burden for me because deep inside, man, I knew that some of the people that I tried to push this on, I knew that they were beyond the medical help.
00:43:14I knew that they were probably not going to get any better, but I was still pushing it because that was what I was trained to do.
00:43:20And it's, it's not Christianity.
00:43:23I'll just say it like that.
00:43:24But the, the point I'm trying to make is it goes both ways.
00:43:29Whenever the people who are in the movement feel like they're being oppressed because people don't believe it, well, they have to understand that while they're trying to push it on those same people, those people are going to eventually speak out and say, hey, no, this is not right.
00:43:43What's what you're doing?
00:43:43It's just caused, it's caused so much long-term damage, John.
00:43:48While we're on the, before we leave and we can wrap up with this, the Deuteronomy 34 passage, because I think that was the passage that Hobart took, again, out of context and, and used.
00:44:05And that concerns Moses and his visual acuity, it said Moses could still see great and great distances at the age of 120.
00:44:17So, you know where I'm going and that's eyeglasses.
00:44:19Wow.
00:44:20This became almost a litmus test at Faith Assembly.
00:44:24One of, maybe one of the biggest practical health, quote unquote, problems at Faith Assembly.
00:44:30It's not life and death, not cancer, it's not diabetes, you know, you can live, you won't die if you take your glasses off, but you can't see.
00:44:40It can create all kinds of havoc in your business and work life and family life and Bible reading life, but at least you can live.
00:44:48You know, it's not a critical health issue, but it became a really big part of what Faith Assembly was known for.
00:44:56And what's interesting, I don't know that people back then, I don't know if they have since then, fought through this.
00:45:03But as I was navigating my way out of Hobart's grip in my early to mid-20s, and at that time I still believed what he said,
00:45:14oh, healing's in the atonement, five stripes were healed, he carried our pains and our sicknesses.
00:45:19And, well, the fact that you can't see very well isn't a pain, well, it might be a pain in the you-know-what, but it's not a pain, it doesn't hurt you.
00:45:29It is not a sickness, it is not an illness.
00:45:33So where are we ever going to draw the line?
00:45:35You know, if you want to still hold to this doctrine of healing being in the atonement, then it needs to be healing for someone who's sick.
00:45:44And poor vision, unless there is some medical condition, you know, it's just poor vision, it's not an illness, and it's not sickness.
00:45:52So I've got another clip for people to hear, and this is from a study that Hobart did years ago.
00:45:59I believe it was 1974, he did a little short series in the book of Hebrews, and I don't recommend that people listen to these series because it is not an expositional, exegetical study of Hebrews.
00:46:14All of Hobart's series on any book was simply his effort to find a passage in that chapter that he wants to preach on anyway, maybe an anti-doctor passage.
00:46:28And so he'll teach the chapter.
00:46:30You don't learn the chapter, you just hear the same old faith or deliverance or healing or prosperity message just with a different garb.
00:46:38Should I take my glasses off?
00:46:39Hear that one all the time.
00:46:41Or I've had my eyes prayed for, should I leave them off?
00:46:44I still can't see.
00:46:48Well, I say the reason is that you're not healed yet.
00:46:53You'll never be able to see as long as you're asking, should I leave my glasses off or put them on?
00:46:58One fellow tried it, but he said, I have to put them back on because, as he said, that's the way I earn my bread.
00:47:04I've got to see.
00:47:05The kind of work I'm in, I've got to see.
00:47:07He really does.
00:47:08He needs his glasses.
00:47:14Oh, I didn't say it wouldn't be a trial, friends.
00:47:16But I'm saying faith is I'll give up that job before I'll doubt.
00:47:23Now, I didn't say you have to take your glasses off.
00:47:26That's between you and how far you want to go with this healing bit.
00:47:30I just go all the way.
00:47:32Hallelujah.
00:47:33Oh, there are times when the old flesh wished that I had had those glasses back on.
00:47:38This book I'm writing now, about 400 pages, I guess.
00:47:41And I'll tell you.
00:47:43There are times, friends, when I just had to quit.
00:47:45I could not see another word.
00:47:48You have no idea the research.
00:47:50Why, sometimes you've had to deal with 13 books for just one thing you're dealing with in your book.
00:47:59And that sort of thing.
00:48:02But you see, when it's faith, you don't ask, what should you do?
00:48:09Or wouldn't it be easier to quit battling this thing and just get the job done?
00:48:14It'd be a lot easier if I'd have never taken them off several years ago.
00:48:17Yes, then I wouldn't have to tell you about it.
00:48:20But I could do like some do.
00:48:22They put them on to read the menu.
00:48:24They put them on to read the Bible.
00:48:25They put them on to do their studying.
00:48:27They say, well, I'm 50 years old or I'm 55 years old.
00:48:30Your eyes get set.
00:48:35You heard my answer to that one?
00:48:37If they get set completely, they call that death.
00:48:43So I'm not going to confess my eyes are getting set.
00:48:46That's just a part of the confession.
00:48:48I'm on the way down, not up.
00:48:51Hallelujah.
00:48:52Oh, I can see all right.
00:48:53You saw me reading.
00:48:54There's a pretty poor light up here.
00:48:55But I'm saying, you know, that the research I've been doing and all, by faith,
00:49:03it's amazing the size of that book.
00:49:05And I've read it all by faith.
00:49:09Worked hard.
00:49:09I get up, friends, if I start at 9 o'clock, I go to bed at 1.
00:49:13Seven days a week.
00:49:16Not boasting or crying on your shoulder.
00:49:20That's just me.
00:49:21I would know what to do with myself if I wasn't busy.
00:49:26You know, if I take a day off, I have to build a radio or something.
00:49:37So I'm saying that I use my eyes probably more than any dozen of you out there.
00:49:43And I've done it by faith.
00:49:45So it does work.
00:49:47And, of course, manifestations do come on this and that and the other.
00:49:50We've all had manifestations of various things.
00:49:53Some have had their eyes healed and that sort of thing.
00:49:57An instant manifestation or close to that.
00:50:02And I'm just saying this is how you want it.
00:50:06If you want to go all the way, and some of us have, then you won't need glasses.
00:50:12And so, you know, what we're hearing on this is Hobart's take on glasses.
00:50:18Glasses, Hobart wore glasses early on.
00:50:21If you go back to really early tapes in the early 70s, and I'll just give people a couple
00:50:28of examples, and there are plenty of these.
00:50:30You can find him talking on a Sunday or on a Wednesday evening service saying the next
00:50:39day, which would either be a Monday or a Thursday.
00:50:42I've got to go down to the eye exam place for my license and take the test, and I'm confessing
00:50:5120-20 vision.
00:50:53So on a tape entitled Overcoming the Impossible, done in 1973, you'll hear just a little reference
00:51:00to that.
00:51:01You know, it's on his mind.
00:51:02Oh, I can't see very well, and I've got to go take the test tomorrow.
00:51:06On another message entitled Matured Sonship, we love to talk about matured and manifested
00:51:13sonship.
00:51:14That was done in 1975.
00:51:16And there are literally, I don't know, maybe a dozen or 15 other messages where coming up
00:51:25in the near future, if not tomorrow that week, from the message that he's teaching at that
00:51:30moment, he's going to have to go down and take the driver's test.
00:51:32So this became just a huge problem.
00:51:36And again, it's not a healing or sickness issue.
00:51:39We're into the area of a corrective vision miracle that needs to take place in your eyeball.
00:51:48This is not healing the sick.
00:51:51This is a creative miracle that needs to take place.
00:51:54Somehow, Hobart was able to just throw them all in the same basket.
00:51:58That is all a healing issue, that is all caused by the devil, and God wants to set you free
00:52:05from it.
00:52:06And so the people went through all these struggles.
00:52:09They would wear their glasses at home, but be too ashamed to do it at church.
00:52:15And so you would see them as they would pull into the parking lot, take the glasses off,
00:52:19and put them in the glove compartment.
00:52:21So you're actually causing these people to, you're forcing them to live a double standard.
00:52:27You know, you're forcing them because of the fear of peer pressure to not be able to live
00:52:32the life in a clear conscience of the way that people should.
00:52:36People would drive without glasses when they really needed them.
00:52:41People would drive without a license because they couldn't pass the test.
00:52:45I can't tell you how many stories that I've heard even in the last year since you and I've
00:52:51started these podcasts where people would tell me one of them was a minister who was a part
00:52:56of Faith Assembly.
00:52:57He said, I was basically born legally blind.
00:53:01He said, I've never been able to see.
00:53:03And he struggled all those years with barely being able to function.
00:53:10And nobody's eyes were being, quote, manifested, unquote.
00:53:16It's this whole cognitive dissonance that people are going through where they have a belief and
00:53:22they have an experience and they don't line up and you live with this constant tension
00:53:29and constant friction.
00:53:31I believe that my eyes are healed because I've claimed it, but I can't pass the darn test.
00:53:36And that goes year after year.
00:53:38I think the psychologists call it cognitive dissonance.
00:53:41That's a terrible state to put yourself in.
00:53:44You're going to manipulate or massage something.
00:53:47You're going to say, oh, you know what?
00:53:50I think I can see better.
00:53:52You know, you're going to squint and convince yourself you can.
00:53:56You're going to do something because we as human beings can't live.
00:54:00We can't go through life with this firm belief.
00:54:03I am healed by Jesus stripes and this firm reality.
00:54:07But I cannot see a whit better than I could before I prayed.
00:54:11That is a very, very unhealthy psychological state to be in.
00:54:16One of those has to give.
00:54:18You either have to change your belief or change your experience.
00:54:23They're waiting on their experience to change.
00:54:25They're waiting on their eyes to be healed so they can see rather than saying, you know,
00:54:30I've been waiting five years, 10 years, 20 years.
00:54:34My experience hasn't changed.
00:54:36I wonder, I just wonder if there's something wrong with my belief.
00:54:39Had people been willing to do that, they could have gone back and addressed, you know,
00:54:45just such a simple, simple area.
00:54:48John, some of these men, they couldn't see.
00:54:52They had a day job.
00:54:54They couldn't drive to work.
00:54:56They're picked up by brothers in the church and carried to the job sign.
00:55:02Sometimes where it was really bad is if the husband and the wife,
00:55:07neither could see, neither could get glasses because that was against faith assembly law.
00:55:14Therefore, legally, neither could drive, although some just did it anyway.
00:55:19You know, Hobart's doctrine forced them to sin against their own conscience.
00:55:24They knew I'm driving illegally, but I don't have any other choice because I can't wear glasses
00:55:29because that's sinning.
00:55:31So rather than sinning in that direction, I'll sin in this direction.
00:55:34I'll drive illegally.
00:55:35You're putting them between a rock and a hard place that was never fair for those people.
00:55:40So with these families that had a large number of children,
00:55:45dad can't legally drive because he can't see.
00:55:48The mother can't do anything.
00:55:50She can't leave the home.
00:55:51She can't see.
00:55:52I have heard some of the most traumatic stories.
00:55:58I heard one story of a young girl who must have just been, and I probably don't have all
00:56:05of this right, but who was getting ready to, you know, take her vision test so she could
00:56:11get her permit, so she could graduate up to the driver's license.
00:56:15And wow, you know, I'm an old guy now, but we can probably all think back and remember
00:56:22getting a driver's license was like a, was not like a new lease on life.
00:56:29You were free, you know, from your parents to have to take you somewhere.
00:56:34If you could get behind a wheel of a car and you had a driver's license, you could take
00:56:39yourself somewhere.
00:56:40This is, it's life changing for a teenager to get to drive.
00:56:45So this young lady, and I know I don't have all the details right, but somehow she was
00:56:51able to get her permit and I don't know how she passed the test.
00:56:55I have heard stories from others.
00:56:57Some of them found out from people before them what the eye chart was, so they couldn't
00:57:04see it, but they memorized it and so repeated it.
00:57:06There were just all different types of tricks that they had to get through that.
00:57:11And then when it came time to get her driver's license and she really couldn't see, her father
00:57:17was going to make her give up her driving privileges.
00:57:20So she had to sin against her own conscience and be deceptive to her father.
00:57:26You know, she literally had to sin against her own conscience to be deceptive to her father.
00:57:32And I, and I've told her when she told me the story, I said, sister, I don't blame
00:57:36you.
00:57:36You know, I understand the pressure you're under because driving as a 16 year old is
00:57:41a life changing event.
00:57:43And, you know, you want to drive even if you can't see, or even if you're going to drive
00:57:48illegally.
00:57:49So here's a case, John, of really, really poor hermeneutics.
00:57:54Moses had perfect vision at 120.
00:57:57That has nothing to do with me or you or her or them or they or him or her or she.
00:58:03That's just what Moses experienced.
00:58:06But if we allow these ministers, this bad hermeneutic, then they will say, well, we've
00:58:14got a verse here.
00:58:15Moses could see, you could see.
00:58:17But let me tell people this in, in my concluding remarks.
00:58:22Hobart died when he was 64, 64 and a half.
00:58:26Hobart's vision was going downhill.
00:58:29Do you know how we know that?
00:58:31And here's what the rank and file might not know.
00:58:37Hobart had changed Bibles to a giant print Bible.
00:58:43Well, you know what I'm going to ask.
00:58:47What's the difference?
00:58:48What's I have, by the way, a regular print Bible and it's pretty small and I can still
00:58:54see it, but occasionally the things that are right here in the center column, those are
00:59:00references to something in the Old Testament.
00:59:03Then what I go to is this.
00:59:08And then I can read that center column reference.
00:59:12Do you know what some of the people I know of one in particular, and I'm sure it's happened
00:59:17with others down to this day, there are not many Freemanite hardcore out there.
00:59:23There are a few down to this day.
00:59:26They won't get glasses, but they own this.
00:59:30What is the difference?
00:59:31Why can't we tape this thing to your eyeball and you just walk around with it?
00:59:36And then technically you're not wearing glasses.
00:59:38You're wearing a magnifying glass.
00:59:40So Hobart graduated from a regular print Bible to a giant print Bible.
00:59:48Yes, he did.
00:59:49Because people said, we were up there at the podium.
00:59:52We saw the print.
00:59:53You know, when you got five inch tall letters, it's pretty easy to read.
00:59:58And not only that, Hobart couldn't pass his driver's test either.
01:00:01So he was not able to drive.
01:00:04And June drove him around everywhere and brought him to church.
01:00:08Maybe the rank and file don't even know that.
01:00:11Maybe they're willing to justify it by saying, well, Hobart was just going through a trial
01:00:17of his fate.
01:00:18Well, I'm sorry to tell all these people, most of them have wakened up by now and own a pair
01:00:23of glasses because they went without being able to see for so many years.
01:00:28They said, enough of that.
01:00:30I'm going to go buy me some glasses.
01:00:31And that's exactly what they did.
01:00:33And for me, it all goes back to that one single phrase.
01:00:37They have an unhealthy craving for controversy and quarrels about words.
01:00:41Because really, in the end, what does it matter, man?
01:00:44What does it matter if somebody goes and gets glasses?
01:00:47It's just absurd when you think about it.
01:00:49But fortunately for me, my eyes aren't that great either.
01:00:52But fortunately for me, I live in the digital age where I can pull up the Bible app on my
01:00:57phone and I can pinch zoom it in and I can read it far away or read it close to my head
01:01:02if I want to, with or without my glasses.
01:01:05So had Hobart lived in the digital age, maybe he wouldn't have needed a large print Bible.
01:01:10So anyway, this has been fun and interesting.
01:01:13Thank you for doing this.
01:01:15Thank you, John, for having me.
01:01:16I appreciate it.
01:01:17Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the
01:01:20web.
01:01:20You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:01:23For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
01:01:27from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:01:57For more information, you can find us at william-branham.org.