Israel facing widespread condemnation for aid blockade and PM's plans to 'take control of Gaza'

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00:00We can now bring in Oliver McTernan, co-founder and director at Forward Thinking.

00:05Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.

00:07What is Benjamin Netanyahu's end goal here?

00:10Because on one hand, he says Operation Gideon's Chariots is being led with great force.

00:14Yet on the other, he suggests he's being pressured by allies to let aid in.

00:19What does he want exactly? What's he trying to achieve?

00:21Well, I think he's consistent since he started this war in response to the October 7th attacks.

00:32And that is being to try and eliminate Hamas from Gaza.

00:38And I think that is one thing he is being his prime objective.

00:43I personally think that the release of the hostages has been a secondary agenda.

00:48That he believes that through this sort of military pressure, that he will succeed in bringing the hostages home.

00:56And I think the last 19 months has proven different.

00:59That it's only through negotiations that you will get the remaining hostages back to their families.

01:07Because what has Israel been able to achieve in terms of its war goals since the 18th of March when it resumed the war?

01:14Have they secured the release of any hostages? Have they defeated Hamas?

01:20Well, the only release really has been through what the mediation of the Qataris.

01:29As the Qatari prime minister said way back in January 24, it wasn't through bombing that we got the hostages back,

01:38but through mediation and negotiation.

01:40I think what he has achieved, in my opinion, and I've been looking at the region for over 20 years now,

01:49intimately involved in it, what, in my opinion, is happening is that Israel is actually becoming less secure.

01:58Because when the wider region, the neighboring countries look at the inhumane happenings in Gaza,

02:10the suffering of the people, the continual bombing, when they observe all of these things,

02:16I think it becomes very clear to them that the respect for humanity isn't there,

02:24or the respect for international norms isn't there.

02:27And I think post-Netanyahu, it will be very difficult for Israel to renegotiate its relationships with its immediate neighbors,

02:36whatever the American policy may be.

02:39I think the importance is that it is seen as part of the region, integrated into the region.

02:45And I think every day is making that task much, much more difficult.

02:52Oliver, you know that there's been this Israeli aid blockade in Gaza that's been in effect for over 10 weeks now,

02:58two and a half months or so.

03:00Now Netanyahu says he's going to allow unlimited aid, which is 20 trucks.

03:04I'm no expert, but I can tell you that every aid organization will say that is a drop in the bucket for what the enclave actually needs.

03:11How is it that Israel's European allies, I know Israel takes direction from what Donald Trump has to say,

03:18but the European allies specifically have been very, very meek when it comes to standing up to Israel?

03:25I think you're dead right.

03:27I'm no expert on aid either, but I do know people involved in it in Gaza.

03:33I know we have a group of British doctors there at the moment.

03:36There is a massive crisis in Gaza on not just food, but on medicine, everything else.

03:46I'm appalled by the lack of direct response from Europe.

03:52It's fine saying, oh, we're concerned or we're worried.

03:56But what I'm witnessing, and I get videos every night and conversations with people in Gaza,

04:02I think what we're witnessing is what I would say morally reprehensible.

04:07We can argue over the political or the legal niceties, is this genocide or not.

04:13I think clearly what it is, it's something morally reprehensible and undermining, I would say,

04:19the whole rule-based order that was established post-World War II.

04:24I mean, what does the Geneva Convention mean now?

04:27What people are forgetting, Gaza in international law is an occupied territory that the occupier has under international law

04:37an obligation to protect the occupied people, not to starve them or bomb them into submission

04:45or worse still, involuntary evacuation and migration.

04:50But frankly, that's what we're witnessing.

04:53And I think the present government in Israel is actually doing the country and its security and its future

05:01a lot of damage through ignoring the very structures that helped establish Israel as a state,

05:08the UN declaration in 1948.

05:12Israeli officials have openly been calling for Gazans to leave the enclave.

05:17I'm just curious, since you've been having conversations with people inside Gaza,

05:21what do those sort of statements mean to them?

05:26Well, I think the one quality that Gazans have is resilience.

05:34And I've witnessed now, this is the fourth war that I've witnessed in Gaza.

05:39I think all it does is stiffen the general population, stiffen their resistance to remain where they have their home

05:51and where their memories and everything else is.

05:55I think it's another now is if the population of Gaza is to migrate,

06:02I think it will be totally involuntary and it will be a sort of forced migration

06:08by creating just inhumane, totally inhumane circumstances.

06:14But I think it's a foolish pursuit of the military goals of Netanyahu at the moment.

06:22I think he's, as I keep coming back, he's not making Israel a more secure place,

06:27which was the objective, the return of the hostages and guaranteed the security of Israel in its future.

06:34I think it's putting that security at risk through this sort of activity.

06:39So what do you make of the negotiations that are underway to secure the release of hostages?

06:43Do you think Israel's not serious about them?

06:45Well, I've been talking to people involved in those negotiations.

06:51And frankly, the feeling is that it's not a serious effort.

06:57You know, that sometimes this posturing for whether it's America or the international community,

07:03they're at an impasse.

07:05I understand that on the one hand, the Hamas position is for a comprehensive

07:11thing that all of the prisoners are released for an end of the war

07:18and a withdrawal of the Israeli forces from Gaza.

07:23Now, I believe what Israel has put on the table is a spire

07:28where half of the hostages would be released.

07:31And then it wouldn't be a withdrawal of the Israeli forces.

07:35So I think there is a total impasse there.

07:38And who is suffering but the ordinary people of Gaza.

07:47And I would stress too, the families of the hostages and the hostages themselves.

07:53Indeed.

07:54Oliver McDonough, I'm going to have to leave you there.

07:55Thank you so much for joining us on the programme today.

07:57I'm going to have to leave you there.

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