In this episode of News Today, the focus is on Congress criticising Shashi Tharoor for supporting the Modi government's handling of Operation Sindoor and Donald Trump's claims of brokering a ceasefire between India and Pakistan.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome to the news today, your prime time destination news.
00:04Newsmakers, talking points, plenty to talk about.
00:06We have some breaking news that's coming in shortly.
00:09The Congress has pulled up Shashi Tharoor,
00:12allegedly because he's taken a stand in support of the Modi government on Operation Sindhu.
00:17We'll find out more details in a moment, but our big focus today.
00:22Donald Trump now proposes a Modi Sharif dinner.
00:26Is Trump more a dealmaker than a statesman?
00:29How should India be handling Donald Trump?
00:32That's the question that we are going to raise.
00:34Top diplomats and voices from India and Washington will join us.
00:38News without the noise, we bring you the news without the sensation.
00:49But the big story that we are breaking this evening,
00:51Congress sources now telling us that their senior MP from Thiruvananthapuram, Shashi Tharoor, has been pulled up.
00:58Congress saying that Shashi Tharoor has crossed a Lakshman Rekha.
01:03This comes, remember, a day after Tharoor told India today on this very show
01:07that he supported the way the Prime Minister had prosecuted Operation Sindhu.
01:13Congress is now demanded an all-party meeting chaired by the Prime Minister and reiterated its call for a special session of Parliament on the recent Indo-Park conflict.
01:32What's been happening first?
01:35Listen in to what Jairam Ramesh said on Shashi Tharoor.
01:38When Shashi Tharoor speaks, it's his personal opinion, not that of the party.
01:56Moshmi Singh, who tracks the Congress, now joins me.
01:59Moshmi, I'm going to play in a bit the interview that Shashi Tharoor gave us yesterday only,
02:04where he was again fulsome in his praise for Prime Minister Modi.
02:08But tell us what happened at this Congress meeting.
02:10Rajdeep, I can tell you that Shashi Tharoor was actually questioned in the meeting because his recent remarks,
02:23the Congress party has seen it as being, in a way, an explanation for, on behalf of the Indian government.
02:31And they feel that Shashi Tharoor has amplified what PM Modi stopped short of in his speech,
02:39thereby saying that India would never broker a deal with U.S. in the picture,
02:45India would never get a ceasefire with U.S. intervention,
02:49and U.S. will land with an egg on its face where India would never agree to a tri-party meeting.
02:57So, the Congress really feels the questions that the opposition was answering, asking,
03:04were answered by not the government, but in fact by repeated interviews given by Dr. Tharoor there.
03:11And in fact, one of the leaders also commented that this time round,
03:15Shashi Tharoor had actually crossed the Lakshman Rekha.
03:19One leader said that this was the time when you should amplify the party's position
03:24and not give personal opinions.
03:27So, this time round, even if you see that in the press briefing,
03:32Jairam Ramesh distanced the party's position from what Dr. Tharoor had to say.
03:37So, party feels that there is a lot of embarrassment caused to the party.
03:43Moshmi, I'm just stopping you.
03:45I'll come back to you in a moment because I want,
03:47let's hear what Shashi Tharoor told us yesterday,
03:49and then I'll come back to Moshmi Singh.
03:51Listen in to what Shashi Tharoor told us when I asked him specifically
03:55about his stand on Operation Sindhuur
03:57and the allegation that he was being an apologist for the Modi government.
04:02You know, so listening to you, I get a sense that you're giving Narendra Modi
04:06and his government 10 on 10 on 9.5 on 10
04:10for both the way they conducted Operation Sindhuur,
04:14handled the Pahalgaam attack,
04:16and even handled the world diplomatically.
04:17But diplomatically, there are others who are questioning,
04:20even in your own party,
04:21whether Mr. Modi has allowed Kashmir to get internationalized,
04:25whether to allow an American president to announce a ceasefire
04:28between India and Pakistan is setting a dangerous precedent.
04:34Am I to understand that you're giving 9.5 or 10 out of 10
04:38to Prime Minister Modi,
04:40which is unusual, remember, for an opposition leader to do so?
04:43I don't think it's not my place to award marks to anybody,
04:46let alone my betters, let alone the head of our government.
04:49So I'm not avoiding any marks for anybody.
04:51All I'm saying right now is,
04:53I believe that the matters that were under our control,
04:56namely how to conduct this operation,
04:58including its naming it, its presentation of it,
05:01the information briefings, all that were very well done.
05:04If you asked me whether Mr. Trump announcing this ceasefire was a good idea,
05:08it was a terrible idea.
05:09But if you're implying that we could have controlled it
05:12or that perhaps a Prime Minister from another party
05:15could have controlled Mr. Trump better,
05:18well, I'm very happy to wish you good luck in doing that, Radeep.
05:21I think this is a gentleman who escapes such easy control.
05:26And therefore, I don't know whether it's entirely appropriate
05:28to score political points off Mr. Trump's shoulders,
05:33because Mr. Trump is Mr. Trump.
05:34And I don't think anybody in any foreign country
05:36is able to control what he does and how he does it.
05:39All I can say is that India has to make it very clear
05:42to the world, to Mr. Trump, to the Pakistanis and to the Indian public
05:46whether we're going to do what Mr. Trump implies we're going to do.
05:50And I think it's already become very clear we're not.
05:52You know, Moshmi, as you can see that while Shashi Tharoor wasn't giving marks to the Modi government
05:59right through the interview, he was fully in support with the way the government has handled
06:03the entire Operation Sindhur.
06:06What's the sense you're getting?
06:08Is this when the Congress says Tharoor has crossed the Lakshman Rekha,
06:12there are Kerala elections six to eight months from now.
06:16Mr. Tharoor is an important figure there.
06:18Is the Congress asking Shashi Tharoor to now simply not speak out of turn?
06:24What does the Congress really want Shashi Tharoor to do?
06:27Rajdeep, even in your interview, if you see that Dr. Tharoor ends up with the fact that
06:36whether we are giving in to what the U.S. wants and he's stating it, that we are not.
06:40So, this is actually, you know, in point stating the Indian government's position.
06:46And I don't want to read between the lines, but Dr. Tharoor left the meeting a bit early
06:50saying that he had a fly to catch to his constituency and, you know, last time round,
06:56post the Pelgam terror attack, he shared the stage with Prime Minister Modi and PM said
07:01that, you know, many leaders will lose their sleep over this.
07:05And, you know, he's been brewing for some time round from the Russia-Ukraine war,
07:10his comments during that time and his praise of the Modi government time and again.
07:15And so, I think this is the time that, you know, they want to pull a stop to what Shashi Tharoor
07:23is saying and stop giving him that leeway that it's a democratic party, you can just say anything
07:29because they believe that coming from Dr. Tharoor, it is damaging the party irreparably
07:35while Dr. Tharoor is only catering to his audience on the social media and to his own constituency.
07:43Okay, let's leave it there. Clearly, Shashi Tharoor, very popular figure in certain sections,
07:50has also won the admiration of the BJP. But those within his own party field,
07:55Dr. Tharoor is only speaking for himself, doesn't follow the party line on specific issues.
08:01So, we'll see how that plays out. But Moshpi Singh, thanks very much for joining us.
08:05Now, that's the problem that the Congress has. The BJP has another problem
08:09because one of its Madhya Pradesh ministers, Vijay Shah, is in the eye of a real storm.
08:16Today, the Madhya Pradesh High Court has now ordered the police to file an FI against the minister
08:21for his derogatory, communal and sexist remarks against Colonel Sophia Qureshi,
08:26who became the face of the government's media outreach during Operation Sindur.
08:31The Congress has urged the BJP to sack the minister who questioned Sophia Qureshi's religious identity.
08:38Here is a report that embarrasses the BJP this time.
08:42Colonel Sophia Qureshi and Wing Commander Vyomika Singh became the face of the defense forces,
08:50holding daily media briefings during the India-Pakistan conflict last week.
08:56Two women from two different faiths. The message was simple.
09:01India is united against terror.
09:04Now, a Madhya Pradesh minister's statement referring to Colonel Sophia Qureshi has sparked a roar.
09:10The Congress staged protest, demanding the ministers sacking.
09:39The Congress called Donald Shrine, which was the chief of the incident?
09:41The Congress said,
09:42The government said that the GOAT was » Qur'an?
09:43The government said,
09:44I asked what the leaders said,
09:45to take the next step.
09:46The government said that the.....
09:47The President said that this question,
09:49theipty Council should refuse to enter the Court's ministry to use the violence against the Biden-COVID-1990s,
09:49and the government said that the government and the opposition will use the force of the war.
09:51The government said that this complaint was the case that the president should be accused of the nation.
09:53The administration is in the war,
09:54the war.
09:55The government and the government said that the government should be accused.
09:57The government has actually accused the issue of the armed and abolitionist between the war.
09:58The government states should be accused of the armed-wes,
09:59The minister initially defended the statement.
10:29As political heat mounted, Vijay Shah backtracked.
10:59The Madhya Pradesh High Court stepped in on Wednesday, ordering an FIR against Vijay Shah.
11:05The minister's statement has triggered an unwarranted controversy at a time when the country has put up a united front against Pakistan-sponsored terror.
11:16Bureau Report, India Today.
11:20I have only three words to describe what the minister said.
11:24Shameful, shameful, shameful.
11:28Vijay Shah's apology, frankly, is an apology of an apology.
11:33And he and his party must think as to how they can actually damage control the situation.
11:39Now, someone else whom the government may have to deal with is U.S. President Donald Trump,
11:44who again has reiterated his claim that he brokered a ceasefire between India and Pakistan by using trade as a tool.
11:54Trump's comments come after India has on more than one occasion rejected the claim and asserted that trade was never discussed during any conversation with the U.S. leaders during the India-Pakistan conflict.
12:06The MEA claimed that the ceasefire was only agreed upon after Pakistan's DGMO asked for it.
12:13Either way, Trump's comments are proving to be an embarrassment for the Modi government and raise the question, how does one deal with Donald Trump?
12:22We'll be joined by top diplomats in a moment, but first, take a look at the story.
12:26My administration successfully brokered a historic ceasefire to stop the escalating violence between India and Pakistan.
12:36And I used trade to a large extent to do it.
12:39I said, fellas, come on, let's make a deal.
12:41Let's do some trading.
12:43Let's not trade nuclear missiles.
12:46Let's trade the things that you make so beautifully.
12:51U.S. President Donald Trump strikes again.
12:54Speaking in the presence of Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman on Tuesday,
13:00Trump claimed he brokered the ceasefire between the two nuclear-armed neighbors, India and Pakistan, repeating what he said a day ago.
13:09We helped a lot.
13:11And we helped also with trade.
13:12I said, come on, we're going to do a lot of trade with you guys.
13:16Let's stop it.
13:17Let's stop it.
13:18If you stop it, we're doing trade.
13:20If you don't stop it, we're not going to do any trade.
13:23People have never really used trade the way I used it.
13:26Trump also offered to mediate the Kashmir dispute.
13:30India has dismissed these assertions.
13:33Prime Minister Narendra Modi reinforced India's long-held position.
13:38Kashmir is not up for discussion.
13:40He stressed that India and Pakistan can only have a dialogue on terror and return of P.O.K.
13:46India has firmly rejected the idea that American pressure.
14:16had played any role.
14:17From the time of Operation Sindhur, commenced on 7th May,
14:25till the understanding on cessation of firing and military action on 10th May,
14:31there were conversations between Indian and U.S. leaders on the evolving military situation.
14:42The issue of trade did not come up in any of these discussions.
14:46The opposition, however, is demanding the Modi government come clean on Trump's claims.
15:16Trump's repeated statements taking credit for the ceasefire between India and Pakistan has hit a sour note in New Delhi.
15:28Bureau Report, India Today.
15:46How serious should one take Trump's mediation bids in the first place?
15:51And how should the Modi government handle Donald Trump?
15:54Today, I'm happy to be joined by two top diplomats this country has had.
15:59Naftet Sarna, former Indian ambassador to the United States and Israel, among other top OCs held.
16:04President TCA Rajwan is former Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan, written extensively on the subcontinent.
16:10I appreciate both of you joining us.
16:11Let me come to you, Mr. Sarna, first, because you've served in the United States.
16:16Now you've got a president who time and again, in every public fora in the last 72 hours,
16:21claims he is the one who brokered the ceasefire and that he did it by offering a trade deal effectively to both sides.
16:30Something that India has rejected, but he keeps talking about it.
16:33How does one handle Donald Trump?
16:37Well, thank you, Rajdeep.
16:39Pleasure to be here with you.
16:41I think those who have seen Trump 1.0 should not be too surprised.
16:47He said the same thing about mediation on Kashmir, standing next to Imran Khan in July 2019.
16:54And thereafter, after the abrogation of 370, etc., he never mentioned it again.
17:01Today, I think in Trump 2.0, hyperbole has become a habit with Mr. Trump.
17:09And I think India has made its position clear as much as it can without personally attacking him.
17:16I don't think we want to personally attack him, but our spokesman's position has been very clear on both the mediation aspects as well as the fact that trade was not talked about.
17:30All I want to say here is that, you know, our position has to be clear.
17:37And we have to get a way of getting back Mr. Trump on track.
17:44And that, I'm sure, our diplomatic establishment can easily do.
17:49He has to be brought back to talking terror.
17:52And this is something which we have to handle.
17:54But it doesn't mean that we have succumbed to the so-called mediation on this issue.
18:01Because even if you, for a moment, think of what if phone calls were exchanged, it means an end to hostilities.
18:10It does not mean pressure.
18:12And it does not mean mediation in the sense of, you know, the way we have traditionally understood in our foreign policy establishment as mediation on issues.
18:22This is not, this happened in Kargil, when Pakistan, July 4th, Nawaz Sharif was called to the White House, when nothing happens except barbecues in Washington, and he was told to back off.
18:35And so this is not really the issue.
18:38The issue is we have not, there is no mediation.
18:40As far as talks are concerned, I think that, I think the administration, the US administration has sort of extended its, you know, wishful thinking.
18:52Beyond the point of, you know, reality out there.
18:56So I think you have to let what Donald Trump has said, let it go over your left shoulder.
19:03It doesn't change a thing.
19:05And we have to get back to the multiplicity of actors in the US administration to get a message back on track.
19:13You're saying you've got to get the message back on track.
19:16But TCA Raghavan, either way, every time Donald Trump says this, isn't it embarrassing that you've got a US president who, first of all, tweets the ceasefire, virtually taking credit for it,
19:29then refers to Kashmir as this thousand-year conflict, and offers to mediate.
19:35Are we to simply ignore or, as Navtej Sarna says, focus on getting the right message out there?
19:44Donald Trump isn't talking about terror.
19:47We are the victims.
19:47And he seems to be equating Pakistan and us in every statement he makes.
19:53How do you deal with him?
19:55I think we have to focus on our priorities.
19:58In the course of the last few weeks, we have sent two very important messages to Pakistan.
20:06First, by keeping the Indus Waters Treaty in abeyance.
20:11And secondly, by the military and kinetic actions taken after the 7th of May.
20:18To my mind, both these very powerful messages registered.
20:23And thereafter, if the United States and others played a helpful role in diffusing tensions and stopping further escalation, it was a good thing.
20:34The United States has played, as Ambassador Samna just said, a similar role in de-escalation in the past also.
20:43And it has also played a useful role in the past, as for instance, after the Mumbai terrorist attack, in channelizing intense diplomatic pressure on Pakistan.
20:55So, we shouldn't, our position on third party mediation on India-Pakistan issues is very clear.
21:05But we shouldn't make our principal position on that into such a big thing that we do not allow others to play a helpful role from our point of view otherwise.
21:18No, but in the process, if I may just, in the process of playing a helpful role, as you call it, isn't Donald Trump ending up equating India and Pakistan?
21:26He keeps saying, two great nations that I am dealing with, that he has spoken to both sides.
21:32You referred to Kargil, both of you referred to Kargil.
21:35Then Clinton sent out the tough message to Nawaz Sharif.
21:38Here, the problem is, he is trying to make it out to be as if both India and Pakistan were asked to pull back.
21:43I think we should have confidence in our own abilities.
21:48Symmetries, power symmetries in the subcontinent have changed a lot since Kargil times.
21:56We don't need the United States to send Trump, to send Pakistan tough messages now.
22:02We are quite capable of doing it ourselves.
22:04The point is that the United States has played in the past, and it did so this time too, a useful role in de-escalating a potentially escalatory situation.
22:17And that is a good thing.
22:19I don't think we should necessarily see that as the thin end of the wedge in leading to a major mediation effort.
22:27Because on third-party involvement in India-Pakistan issues, our position is very, very clear.
22:34So, I don't see any scope for that position either changing because of some statements which have been made,
22:41or because there was a role played in de-escalating a crisis situation.
22:50Somehow that has weakened our position with regard to third-party players.
22:53I don't see the two as connected.
22:55But should we get Donald Trump to send a firmer message, Mr. Raghavan, on terror specifically to Pakistan?
23:02Why are his statements not mentioning or referring to the terror emanating out of Pakistan?
23:08I'm sure, I'm sure.
23:10I think the United States' position on Pakistan is well known.
23:14It doesn't have to be reiterated on every occasion.
23:18And the history of Pakistan-U.S. relations over the past 10 or 15 years really speaks for itself.
23:26So, I don't think we have to ask them to wave a flag in our favor every time something happens.
23:31I think we need to have much more confidence in our own positions and our own capacities.
23:37You know, Naptit Sarna, I just want to put up this, that Trump today is, of course, in the Arab world.
23:44He's got Saudi Arabia to make a commitment to invest $600 billion over four years in the U.S.
23:50to sell arms worth $142 billion.
23:53He's gone to Qatar and has got Doha to gift him a $400 million Boeing 747 Jumbo.
23:58And that there's, he's also got, the plane is to be transferred to his foundation.
24:07$200 billion jet deal with Doha, a branded golf course and real estate project to come up in Qatar.
24:14He's now going to UAE and we are told there will be a $1.4 billion weapon sale to UAE
24:18and UAE to invest $1.4 trillion over 10 years in the U.S.
24:22And on Syria, he's lifting sanctions on Syria and praising the Syrian president Ahmad al-Shara
24:28as young, attractive, tough guy, who only till recently was designated a global terrorist by the U.S. in 2013.
24:35We seem to be now dealing with a U.S. president, if I may say so,
24:39who's a real estate dealmaker and not a real serious statesman of any kind.
24:45Well, Rashid, what's so surprising about that?
24:48I think there are two aspects to Mr. Trump's personality.
24:50One is the real estate developer and the second is the reality show host.
24:56So when you combine those two, you get what you're seeing.
25:01So I must just come back to a couple of points that Raghavan made.
25:06I think one is the mediation aspect, you know, which we have already talked about.
25:12And the second thing you mentioned was the hyphenation aspect.
25:15I think the hyphenation aspect should not also be taken as seriously because it is momentary
25:22and it is superficial because the world has to be told again the real India story.
25:29We are not in the same league as Pakistan.
25:31We are in a different league.
25:33And we have to tell countries like Turkey this, that if you want to do business with us,
25:38then you have to behave differently.
25:41Therefore, this hyphenation comes by because the world is overworked.
25:47The world is crowded with crises.
25:50So the minute it's a lazy, lazy assumption that here are two nuclear armed guys going at each other,
25:57they will spiral out of control.
25:59But this hyphenation has been broken before.
26:02It will be broken again.
26:04So I don't worry too much about that.
26:05As far as Mr. Trump's personality and his penchant for deals is concerned.
26:11Yes, he is a dealmaker and a peacemaker.
26:13Even the State Department spokesman is actually using the two words interchangeably in a couple of statements at the back.
26:21And by the way, on the mediation aspect, the State Department seems to be walking away from it already.
26:27The statement yesterday says, you know, commends their decision and rejects, which reflects strength, wisdom, and fortitude.
26:37And we urge both sides to maintain direct contacts.
26:41Now, this is a walking away from the previous position.
26:45So, you know, I think what we need is sustained diplomatic effort.
26:50We don't really need to get onto the rooftop and start shouting against Mr. Trump.
26:55And nothing that Mr. Trump says is cast in stone.
26:59It's what gets him in the morning that makes things move.
27:03So, therefore, Mr. Raghu, if we have the Pakistanis claiming, forget about the, you know, the military part of it.
27:13That, I think, is very clear that they've suffered heavy losses.
27:16That's increasingly becoming clear.
27:17But diplomatically, can the Pakistanis use this ceasefire to try and claim that, you know, they want a dialogue with India.
27:26Here is Donald Trump talking of dinner between Modi and Sharif.
27:30Was that simply a carrot offered to the Pakistanis to get them to sign on to the ceasefire?
27:35I think the Pakistanis found that the ceasefire was in their interest and they have, they would also see President Trump's tweets to some extent as being, giving them a little extra satisfaction.
27:55But I won't pay too much attention to that because in the end, Pakistan also has to sell the ceasefire to its people.
28:03And therefore, they are claiming victory is something which is inevitable and natural.
28:09We don't have to take it at face value.
28:12The important thing I, to my mind at least, is despite the sharp erosion in Pakistan-U.S. relations in the past decade and a half, how significant a role the United States still played vis-a-vis Pakistan.
28:31That is something quite surprising because one would have expected that with the major erosion in past U.S. relations, such a role would be more difficult for the U.S. to play.
28:46But in fact, Pakistan accepted that role very readily and in fact with great eagerness.
28:51I think that is a significant development that we shouldn't underestimate it.
28:56Okay, let me give Navtej a final, Mr. Sarna, a final word.
28:59Mr. Sarna, therefore, do you believe that India now needs to aggressively go and make a pitch across the world to explain to the world that we are the victims, Pakistan the perpetrator?
29:09Do we need to do a bit more in that regard in your view or not?
29:13I don't think we need to do anything in a sense of panic or desperation.
29:19I mean, this is part of noble diplomatic work.
29:21But clearly, what we have to do is to make sure that the message stays on terror and terror alone.
29:29And doesn't get diluted into other things.
29:32And that is just a nuancing of our messaging, which has already been there.
29:37But we are working across the board, you know, whether it is FATF, whether it is other institutions, whether it is the U.N. Security Council.
29:44I think the message has to go back.
29:47Listen, this was not a conflict between two nuclear armed countries just because we don't like each other.
29:54This was a retaliation to a terror attack from a country which supports the institution of terror as an instrument of state power.
30:04And that is the message which has been consistent.
30:07And I think it should continue.
30:09But if there have been particular incidents, which were particular countries with whom we need to rub this message in again, then we should do so.
30:17Okay.
30:19Navtej Sarna and Mr. Raghavan, I appreciate two very fine voices joining me and giving us a sense and putting Trump's comments in some kind of context.
30:28Thank you very much, both of you, for joining me.
30:31Earlier also, I spoke to a very special guest.
30:33Michael Kugelman is one of the leading South Asia analysts based in the United States.
30:37Michael, one of the vexed issues thrown up by this India-Pakistan conflict continues to be the role of America and the Trump administration.
30:47Trump even going to the extent of suggesting it was pressure by the United States, including the carrot of trade talks that was responsible for stopping the fighting.
30:55How should we read Donald Trump's role in this entire conflict and that of the U.S. administration, Michael Kugelman?
31:01Well, I think that President Trump is someone who likes to place himself at the center of events like this.
31:10He likes to be projected as someone who can broker peace in a very prominent way.
31:15And that might, I think, overstate what actually happened in terms of the nature of the U.S. involvement.
31:21It's very clear that U.S. officials did intervene diplomatically to push the two sides to de-escalate and indeed push for a ceasefire.
31:30But I think that one might argue that the way in which the president described the U.S. role might overstate the role and the actions of the Indians and the Pakistanis themselves.
31:46Is it, though, Michael, just Donald Trump being true to form and, as you said, keeping himself at the center of issues?
31:52Or is there even a grain of truth when he starts speaking about offering to mediate, settle the Kashmir issue?
31:58Is this a president who likes to play to the gallery and put himself above the din of the rest?
32:06No, I mean, I think that we need to acknowledge that there was a significant level of U.S. involvement.
32:11And, you know, there's been so much focus on how the U.S. had signaled early on in the crisis that it would be aloof and that it would play a hands-off role.
32:19The fact that, you know, J.D. Vance had said that, you know, the U.S. won't get involved in other people's wars.
32:25But the message from U.S. officials throughout the crisis was de-escalation, pushing for de-escalation.
32:31And Marco Rubio was very engaged on very high levels.
32:34He was in touch with his counterparts in India and Pakistan several times over the course of the crisis.
32:39And my understanding is that Rubio himself, along with J.D. Vance, had had a number of conversations with counterparts in India and Pakistan and were in a position to encourage the two sides to push for, to look toward a ceasefire.
32:55But I would also make this point.
32:57By the time, you know, the crisis had reached the point it did when you had both countries launching drones and missiles onto each other's territory and hitting military targets, by that point, I would argue that both India and Pakistan actually had arrived at a point where they could claim victory and essentially call it a day because they could tell their publics that,
33:20look, we had inflicted significant damage on each side, we had sent strong messages to the other side.
33:26And in that sense, when U.S. officials began getting involved and pushing for the ceasefire, one could argue that they were pushing at an open door in the sense that maybe there was already a willingness on the part of the Indians and Pakistanis to talk amongst themselves toward a ceasefire.
33:42But let's look at the steps ahead now, Michael.
33:45During his statements, Mr. Rubio has said this is not only a ceasefire, but India and Pakistan have agreed to talk on a broad set of issues.
33:52Now, remember, a dialogue between the two countries has been frozen in recent years.
33:57Do you believe that the Americans can actually will or will push for a dialogue at some neutral place?
34:02Because India has made it very clear we will only talk on terror and on Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.
34:07That's what Prime Minister Modi very clearly said in his speech.
34:10I mean, my sense is that the Americans concluded that they might have to include language like that in order to get the Pakistanis to agree to a ceasefire,
34:24because clearly that's something that the Pakistanis would be much more inclined to do than the Indians.
34:30I mean, as you indicate, there wouldn't appear to be any desire on the part of India to hold talks with Pakistan.
34:36And that was reiterated, I think, in Prime Minister Modi's speech.
34:40So I would not place too much stock in that.
34:44And indeed, I mean, it was only the Americans that put that out there.
34:47It was only Rubio in his tweet where he talked about that possibility.
34:51I don't really think that we should take that very seriously.
34:53There's one other concern, Michael Kugelman, but that by their statements, the nature of Trump's statements,
35:00the United States is actually re-hyphenating India with Pakistan.
35:04Now, do you really believe that Washington is going to equate India and Pakistan?
35:10Surely India is on a different plane.
35:12How can one equate the perpetrator of terror, i.e. Pakistan, with India, which has suffered as a result of Pakistan-sponsored terror?
35:20Right, exactly.
35:23I mean, we've seen in recent years that the policy of the U.S. is not to hyphenate.
35:29There's been a significant level of dehyphenation, particularly as the U.S.-India partnership has really taken off in a big way.
35:36And in that sense, again, I wouldn't place too much stock in some of these comments that we've heard recently from President Trump.
35:41And that includes his comment that he'd like to seek a solution for Kashmir.
35:47I do not think that reflected policy.
35:49I think it was just a case of him understanding that this is a difficult challenge and that maybe he should be the one that tries to make an attempt at trying to encourage the sides to push forward on resolving it,
36:02not maybe understanding the context, the very complex context, as well as the geopolitical aspects of this.
36:09So I don't think that we should take President Trump's comment that very seriously at all.
36:14And clearly, nothing is going to come of it.
36:16Let me turn to something, though, Michael, that perhaps we should all take seriously.
36:22Given what you've seen that's happened in the last couple of weeks between India and Pakistan, and India has been very careful not even calling it a ceasefire but an understanding with Pakistan,
36:31have the events of the last few weeks only shown what a dangerous place the subcontinent can be?
36:37And do you really believe that the danger clouds have passed us by?
36:40Or could we be heading for more difficult times, given that India has implicitly said now that every act of terror will be treated effectively as an act of war?
36:52I think that the trajectory here for India-Pakistan relations is not a very positive one, which is a bit ironic in that really for the last four-plus years,
37:03India-Pakistan relations had been relatively stable following the LOC truce in early 2021.
37:08But, you know, the fact that we now see that both countries are very willing and comfortable to use significant levels of limited force under the nuclear umbrella,
37:17I think that's concerning.
37:19That suggests the possibilities of escalation are high.
37:23And also, the ceasefire will be fragile.
37:27I mean, ceasefires, by definition, are meant to be temporary.
37:29But, you know, given the comments we heard from Prime Minister Modi in his speech yesterday,
37:34you know, really an emphasis on how this is all very temporary.
37:37And it's just a matter of time before things could pick up again.
37:41And on the Pakistani side, you know, that clearly will be seen as a provocation.
37:45The very fact that Prime Minister Modi essentially said that, you know, this is a temporary thing and it could pick up again.
37:52So, and I would also add that the weaponry that was used in this most recent crisis was very advanced.
37:59You had drones being used and it appears that both sides have now been able to diversify their sources of arms suppliers so that you have both countries in a position to fill the gaps in their indigenous defense production to get really, you know,
38:13high-powered weaponry that can really move the needle forward in terms of strengthening their own capabilities.
38:19One final question, Michael.
38:27Given, as you say, that we could be heading for unstable times, do you see the United States playing a greater role,
38:34given the fact that in general the Trump administration has largely taken a more inward-looking policy?
38:40Do you believe that if the situation remains fraught, does Washington actually want to play a greater role in the subcontinent at all?
38:50Well, I mean, as you know, I mean, the historical pattern for U.S. policy is that it really stays away, so to speak, from the India-Pakistan relationship.
39:00I mean, it has a strong interest in the relationship being workable.
39:03But generally speaking, it's not trying to involve itself in the relationship unless and until you have an actual crisis.
39:11And I suspect that that will continue, though I do think that, you know, the last few days will be a lesson to officials in Washington that even though the focus,
39:21the strategic focus of the Trump administration in its first few months in power has been in other areas, right,
39:27whether you're talking about Gaza or Ukraine or areas closer to the U.S. or China, that it's important to keep an eye on what's happening on the subcontinent.
39:37So that's not to suggest that you're going to see more active involvement, active mediation by the U.S.,
39:42but I do think that there will be more of a strategic focus on the region than there might have otherwise been had this crisis not exploded.
39:49Michael Kugelman, for setting us in context where you believe the Trump administration stands on the Indo-Pak conflict,
39:57I appreciate you joining me there from Washington, D.C. Thank you so much.
40:02We've been mentioning Turkey more than once in the conversations we've just had with both our diplomats as well as with Michael.
40:10As tensions simmer between India and Pakistan, the Turkey connection, once a recipient of India's humanitarian aid during the earthquake in 2023,
40:21is now seen to have openly sided with Pakistan during the conflict.
40:26Hundreds of Indian tourists, as a retaliatory measure, have now decided to cancel their summer trip to Turkey.
40:32Bookings have sharply declined by 60% in just the last one week.
40:37And even Apple exports are being stopped, we are told, to Turkey.
40:42Take a look at why Turkey finds itself in the crosshairs.
40:48Pakistan has a new all-weather ally.
40:52Turkey sent hundreds of drones, military equipment and even military personnel to help Pakistan fight India.
40:59Latest reports have confirmed the death of at least two Turkish drone operators in Indian airstrikes on Pakistan.
41:07You can see some quadcopters and you can see one or Sankar drone hanging by the wire.
41:14All these have been brought down by our trained crew and air defense systems.
41:20The Yeha drones are of Turkish origin.
41:24The Turkey-Pakistan tango has sparked massive anger in India.
41:28The chorus to boycott Turkish products is hitting fever pitch.
41:31Indian tourists are shunning Turkey and another Pakistan ally, Azerbaijan.
41:49What has angered Indians is the fact that Turkey is acting against a country that helped them in their hour of need.
41:55India had stood by Turkey during the 2023 earthquake, launching Operation Dost and supplying relief material to tide over the humanitarian crisis.
42:08Thousands had died in the quake that crippled Turkey and Syria.
42:12India also had trade ties with Turkey.
42:14In 2024-25, India exports to Turkey stood at $5.2 billion, which was down from $6.65 billion in 2023-24.
42:29This accounts for less than 1.5% of India's total exports.
42:33Imports from Turkey were worth $2.84 billion in 2024-25 compared to $3.78 billion in 2023-24, just 0.5% of India's total imports.
42:49Turkey received around 62.2 million foreign tourists in 2024 with approximately 300,000 coming from India.
42:59Boycott Turkey is trending online right now.
43:02The results are many other travel agents have followed our suit.
43:07And the results are 22% bookings are cancelled by passengers themselves for Turkey.
43:13Turkey has been once again an ally of Pakistan, not only training, but implicating and trying to damage Indian air bases and Indian civilians.
43:23Two personnel have been killed.
43:25More than 350 Turkish drones were directed towards India.
43:28This is Shivani Sharma with Cameraperson Pawan Kumar for India Today from New Delhi.
43:33Let's turn to tonight's Get Real India story that comes from Bihar.
43:37A village got a road overnight because Chief Minister Nitish Kumar was visiting the family of a BSF jawan killed in Pakistani shelling.
43:47Take a look at our Get Real India story.
43:50All hands on the deck.
44:12A road is being built on war footing.
44:16These are the images from Narayanpur village, home to BSF sub-inspector Mohamed Imtiaz, who died in Pakistan shelling in Jammu and Kashmir.
44:26There was no pakka road here on Monday when the village bid farewell to the country's brave son.
44:31Work on the road began when Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar decided to visit Imtiaz's family.
44:39All the hard work paid off.
45:05The road was ready in record time for the visit of Chief Minister Nitish Kumar, Deputy Chief Minister Samrat Chaudhary, Leader of Opposition Tejasvi Yadav and other VIPs on Tuesday.
45:17The Chief Minister handed over a cheque of 50 lakh rupees and made other assurances.
45:35The road built for the comfort of Naitaz will now remind us of the city of Naitaz's family.
46:05The road is built overnight because the chief minister is coming.
46:08With Alok Kumar Jaiswal, Bureau Report, India Today.
46:17A story that tells you all about India's darker side.
46:21A road is built overnight because the chief minister is coming.
46:24Let's turn to our ground report tonight which comes from Jammu and Kashmir's Poonch district where a 50-year-old ex-serviceman, Amarjeet Singh, lost his life on the 7th of May.
46:33He was killed in the unprovoked artillery shelling by Pakistani forces.
46:37India Today's Kamaljeet Sandhu brings you the report of a family's unimaginable loss.
46:42Take a look.
46:43This is what is left of Amarjeet Singh Fawji's home in Kamakhan area of Poonch.
46:52A roof blown apart, walls damaged by Sharpanel and a family shattered.
47:02Fifty-year-old Amarjeet Singh, a former territorial army jawan, was inside when a mortar shell fired by Pakistani forces landed on his house on May 7th.
47:15The splinters pierced his lungs and heart.
47:19He was rushed to the hospital but did not make it.
47:22The splinters pierced his lungs and heart.
47:52Amarjeet has served the nation for 18 years before returning to civilian life.
48:00But even in peace, the war caught up with him.
48:04His 13-year-old son Amanpreet and 7-year-old daughter Gurshan Ghat are still waiting for answers.
48:11Amarjeet Singh's wife, Harpreet Kaur, is devastated.
48:26Says the ceasefire has no meaning now.
48:28Amarjeet Singh was one of the 12 civilians killed in the Poonch and Tangadhar sectors that day due to Pakistani shelling.
48:48His death is a grim reminder that even in times of supposed peace, the border remains a battlefield.
48:57With Amarjeet Sandhu from Poonch in Jammu and Kashmir, Bureau Report, India Today.
49:02Tragic, tragic, tragic, tragic.
49:09Okay, I want to leave you with our image of the day.
49:12India has got a new Chief Justice today.
49:15And he has created a slice of history.
49:17Justice B.R. Gavai, who took oath today as Chief Justice,
49:21became the first neo-Buddhist Ambedkarite in that role.
49:25Justice Bhushan Ramakrishna Gavai sworn in as the 52nd Chief Justice of India,
49:31the second from the Dalit community, to ascend to the nation's highest judicial office.
49:36In his home, he has a picture of Baba Sahib Ambedkar prominently displayed.
49:40Baba Sahib would believe that his constitutional dream of creating a social equality,
49:46society based on social equality,
49:48has at least seen a Dalit rise to that post yet again for the second time in the country's history.
49:55I leave it there.
49:56And we wish Mr. Gavai all the very best.
49:59He takes office in tough times.
50:01The Constitution must be protected above Parliament or any individual.
50:07Thanks for watching.
50:08Stay well, stay safe.
50:10Good night, Shubratri.
50:11News without the noise.
50:12Bye for now.