- 5/29/2025
This episode of News Today focusses on recent setbacks to Donald Trump's administration, including billionaire Elon Musk quitting his government role after criticising Trump's 'Big Beautiful Bill'.
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00:00Hello and welcome once again. You're with the news today. Thursday night, your destination.
00:04News, newsmakers, talking points, news without the noise.
00:08The big talking point tonight is the Donald Trump experiment now unraveling
00:13and what will be its implications for America and more importantly India and the world.
00:19Also, the man in the eye of a storm. What next for Shashi Tharoor?
00:24Lots to talk about but first as always, it's time for the Nine Headlines at Nine.
00:30Billionaire businessman Elon Musk decides to exit the U.S. government role
00:34after criticizing Donald Trump's big beautiful bill which includes sweeping tax relief and government spending cuts.
00:42It's the latest setback to Trump as courts say tariffs cannot be imposed unilaterally by the American president.
00:52Big Bengal showdown over Operation Sindhu.
00:55Prime Minister Modi invokes Operation Sindhu in the land of Sindhu Khela.
01:01Mamata Banerjee attacks the Prime Minister, says government has made Sindhu a political catchphrase,
01:07dares him to hold elections in Bengal right away.
01:11Under fire from his own Congress party, Shashi Tharoor remains defiant,
01:16backs his surgical strikes for the first time remark,
01:19says past Indian response to terror was constrained by LOC and international border.
01:26Air Force chief flags delays in several key projects,
01:30says contracts were signed but systems never came.
01:34IAF pushes for faster indigenization.
01:36Home Minister Amit Shah on a two-day visit to JNK in the backdrop of the Pahalgam terror attack,
01:47Shah to chair a high-level security huddle meet victims of Park shelling in Pooj.
01:55Park Prime Minister admits that India's military strikes caught Islamabad by surprise,
02:01says Brambo's hit us before our planned response.
02:08Over 200 Muslim Congress leaders resign in protest of a Mangaluru murder
02:13in which a 26-year-old Muslim pickup driver was killed,
02:16state to implement a communal violence prevention task force.
02:23Karnataka film body warns actor Kamal Hassan,
02:26says he must apologize for his Kannada Tamil remark or face a film ban.
02:3124-hour deadline given to the actor to apologize.
02:37India's retail inflation slowed to 3.16% in April,
02:41the lowest since July 2019.
02:44Inflation was at 3.34% in March.
02:56Okay, let's turn to the big story that's breaking this evening.
03:04Donald Trump once again making the headlines now.
03:07Announcement coming from government sources
03:10that a U.S. team will visit India in June,
03:14possibly as early as next week,
03:16for trade talks to be taken to the next level.
03:19Government sources saying that they are studying the U.S. court's order on tariffs.
03:23Remember, the U.S. court has said
03:26that Trump had no powers to slap reciprocal tariffs.
03:30The Trump administration had told a court
03:33that the Indo-Parks ceasefire was achieved
03:36because of a trade offer
03:38and used that to defend their stand on tariffs.
03:41The court seems to have rejected
03:43the stand taken by the Trump administration on tariffs.
03:47So the big breaking news,
03:49a trade delegation from the United States
03:51likely to visit India as early as next week.
03:58But let's turn first to one of our top stories tonight.
04:02A U.S. federal court has ruled late last night
04:04that President Donald Trump
04:06does not have the powers
04:08to impose reciprocal tariffs.
04:11The court, in fact, has said
04:12that the Trump administration
04:14has now got just 10 days
04:16to scrap the tariffs.
04:17Remember, Donald Trump has taken the world
04:20into an unprecedented tariff war
04:23which is hurting the U.S. economy
04:25as well at the moment.
04:27But that's not just that.
04:29Billionaire businessman and Trump aide
04:31Elon Musk has decided
04:33to quit the Trump administration
04:34while criticizing Donald Trump's
04:37big, beautiful bill
04:38that will cut taxes.
04:41Musk says, in a way,
04:43that he's out.
04:44What does this all mean
04:46for the one man
04:47who's trying to change the world?
04:50Is the Donald Trump experiment unraveling?
04:53That's going to be our top focus.
04:55First, take a look at this report.
05:00The bromance is ending in a breakup.
05:03The governance partnership
05:05between the world's most powerful person
05:07and the world's richest person
05:09is over.
05:10Elon Musk is leaving his position
05:12at the Department of Government Efficiency
05:14that was formed
05:16to scrap wasteful government spending.
05:19While his appointment to the post
05:20was to be short-term,
05:22Musk exit comes right after he described
05:24President Donald Trump's flagship legislation,
05:28the big, beautiful bill,
05:29as disappointing.
05:31In an interview to CBS,
05:33Musk called the big, beautiful bill
05:35a massive spending bill
05:37which increases the budget deficit
05:39and undermines the work
05:41that the Doge team is doing.
05:43Musk said,
05:44the bill can be big
05:45or it can be beautiful,
05:47but it can't be both.
05:49The big, beautiful bill
05:50once passed
05:51will give tax cuts,
05:53provide for border security,
05:55and curtail medical benefits.
05:57When asked about Musk's criticism,
05:59Trump avoided a direct reply.
06:01Mr. President,
06:03Elon Musk in a television interview
06:04criticized the one
06:06big, beautiful bill
06:08saying he was disappointed
06:09it didn't cut enough, essentially,
06:11that it undercut the Doge efforts.
06:12What's your reaction to that?
06:13Well, my reaction's a lot of things.
06:16Number one,
06:16we have to get a lot of votes.
06:17We can't be cutting.
06:20You know,
06:20we need to get a lot of support.
06:23We have no Democrats.
06:24You know,
06:24if it's up to the Democrats,
06:26they'll take the 65% increase.
06:27You know,
06:28that doesn't get approved.
06:29This country is going to have
06:31a 65% increase in taxes.
06:34Trump faced another setback
06:36on Wednesday
06:36when the U.S. Court of International Trade
06:39ruled President had no powers
06:41to impose reciprocal tariffs.
06:43Trump had invoked
06:44the International Emergency Economic Powers Act
06:47to impose tariffs,
06:48but the 1977 law
06:50incidentally makes no mention of tariffs.
06:53The IEEPA is a law
06:55that deals with trade embargoes
06:57and sanctions.
06:58Defending the tariff war,
07:01Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick
07:02had submitted an affidavit
07:04in the court
07:05claiming Trump used tariffs
07:06to broker ceasefire
07:08between India and Pakistan.
07:11Lutnick said,
07:12and I quote,
07:13India and Pakistan,
07:14two nuclear powers
07:15engaged in combat operations
07:17just 13 days ago,
07:19reached a tenuous ceasefire
07:21on May 10, 2025.
07:22This ceasefire was only achieved
07:25after President Trump interceded
07:27and offered both nations trading access
07:30with the United States
07:31to avert a full-scale war, unquote.
07:35India has once again rejected claims
07:37of U.S. hand in ceasefire with Pakistan.
07:40From the time
07:43Operation Sindhur
07:45commenced on 7th May
07:47till the understanding
07:48on cessation of firing
07:50and military action
07:52on 10th May,
07:53there were conversations
07:54between
07:55India,
07:58Indian and U.S. leaders
07:59on the evolving military situation.
08:02The issue of trade
08:03or tariff
08:03did not come up
08:04in any of those discussions.
08:06Trump's presidency,
08:09which high on action,
08:10has failed to deliver
08:11on many of his promises.
08:14The Russia-Ukraine war
08:15and the Israel war
08:16on Gaza
08:17are still raging
08:18despite Trump's
08:19many declarations
08:20on impending ceasefires.
08:23At some point,
08:24Trump will start
08:25facing tough questions
08:26from his voters.
08:28Bureau Report,
08:29India Today.
08:32So let's raise
08:33the big questions then
08:34on our talking point.
08:36Are U.S. institutions
08:38finally standing up
08:40to Donald Trump?
08:41Is the great disruptor
08:43himself now
08:43getting disrupted?
08:45Is the Trump experiment
08:47unraveling
08:47and what will be
08:48the consequences
08:49for India
08:50and the world?
08:52Joining me now,
08:53Jayan Krishna,
08:53Senior Fellow
08:54at the Center for Strategic
08:55and International Studies
08:56in Washington.
08:58He's in Delhi
08:58at the moment.
08:59Ambassador Casey Singh,
09:00former Secretary
09:01of Ministry
09:01of External Affairs.
09:02Professor Andrew Latham,
09:04Distinguished Scholar
09:04of International Security
09:05and Strategic Studies
09:06at Macalester College.
09:09Joins us.
09:09Appreciate all of you
09:10joining us.
09:11Let me come to you
09:11Professor Latham first.
09:13We've seen a pretty
09:13dramatic 24 hours
09:15which is often
09:17a long time
09:17when it comes
09:18to Donald Trump.
09:19One of his key aides,
09:20the one and only
09:21Elon Musk
09:22has decided to leave
09:23the Trump administration
09:24and his Department
09:25of Government
09:26Efficiency
09:26and you've got
09:28the court now
09:29making it very clear
09:30that Trump's administration
09:31cannot impose
09:32these reciprocal tariffs.
09:35What do you make
09:35out of it?
09:36Is the Trump experiment
09:37now unraveling
09:39four months
09:39into Trump 2.0?
09:42Well, it seems
09:43very much to be.
09:44Trump 2.0
09:46really tried
09:47to push things
09:48very, very, very quickly
09:49and circumvented
09:52both the American
09:53Constitution
09:54and various laws
09:56in the process
09:56and now we're seeing
09:58the pushback
09:59from the courts,
10:00the district courts,
10:01not quite yet
10:01the Supreme Court
10:02but also Elon Musk
10:05leaving his government job
10:07with the,
10:10I always pronounce it
10:11doge,
10:12but it's doge,
10:13the Department
10:14of Government Efficiency.
10:17And so, yeah,
10:18I think we're seeing
10:19the wheels come off
10:21to some extent.
10:24It speaks to
10:25a deeper reality
10:26which is Trump 1.0,
10:28there were lots
10:29of guardrails
10:30because there were
10:31lots of professionals
10:32in that administration
10:34that contained
10:35and constrained
10:36and constricted
10:37Donald Trump
10:38and the second administration
10:41since 2024,
10:42those figures
10:43aren't there.
10:45There are a bunch
10:45of basically sycophants
10:47and so there are
10:49no guardrails
10:50except for the
10:51constitutional and legal
10:52guardrails
10:53which are now
10:54beginning to kick in.
10:57So you're not surprised.
10:58What you're telling us
10:59that the likes of Elon Musk
11:01quitting Trump,
11:02in any case,
11:03Musk himself was seen
11:04as a bit of a gadfly,
11:06not a practicing politician.
11:08You're saying the rails
11:09are coming off
11:10because of the kind
11:11of people he's chosen.
11:13I think that's right,
11:14yes.
11:15There are no
11:16internal restraints
11:18in the way there were
11:20in Trump 1.0.
11:21There are no people
11:22telling him,
11:23sorry, sir,
11:24you're wrong.
11:25Sorry, sir,
11:26you can't do this,
11:27you can't do that,
11:28you can't do the other thing.
11:29There are no people
11:30telling him that.
11:30All there are
11:31are people telling him,
11:32yes, sir, no, sir,
11:33three bags full, sir.
11:34And that's, you know,
11:37and so beyond
11:38the administration,
11:39then there are institutional,
11:42I like the term guardrails
11:43that are kicking in now
11:45in a way that wasn't necessary
11:48during the first
11:48Trump administration,
11:50but are very much
11:51necessary now.
11:52I think his project
11:54is being,
11:56to mix metaphors,
11:58completely derailed.
12:00I don't think he's going
12:01to accomplish
12:02even a small percentage
12:04of what he thinks
12:06he might have accomplished
12:07because of the ineptitude
12:10of the people around him.
12:14Jain Krishna,
12:15do you go along with that?
12:16Both the court order
12:17on tariffs,
12:18the fact that
12:19Harvard University
12:20has decided to fight back,
12:22the fact that now
12:22the likes of Elon Musk
12:24are solely deserting
12:25Donald Trump is,
12:26do you agree with
12:27Professor Latham,
12:28the experiment,
12:29Trump experiment,
12:30is unraveling even faster
12:31than one might have imagined?
12:34Yeah,
12:35Rajdeep,
12:35to a large extent,
12:36you know,
12:36I mean,
12:36what Trump essentially
12:37tried to do,
12:38he wanted to change
12:39the world order
12:40with an unprecedented speed,
12:42you know,
12:43shrink the US government,
12:45downsize it,
12:46you know,
12:47and reorient the global economy.
12:49You know,
12:49multiple things,
12:50if you look at
12:51from the day
12:51he assumed power,
12:52even before that,
12:53what he started doing,
12:54disempowering USAID completely,
12:57unwinding the climate change,
12:58you know,
12:59mechanism which was in place,
13:01the Paris Accord
13:02he walked out of,
13:03the diversity,
13:04equity,
13:05inclusion policies
13:06have been changed
13:06all across.
13:08So I think on the tariff issue,
13:09if you look at
13:10from April 2
13:11when the
13:12Liberation Day
13:13tariff of
13:1410% base tariff
13:15and higher tariff
13:16for countries
13:17with which
13:18US had the trade deficit
13:19when it was announced,
13:21you know,
13:21there has been
13:21a lot of flip-flop
13:22on the policy.
13:23You know,
13:23I mean,
13:23if you look at
13:24the tariff for post
13:25and not just like that,
13:27not because of
13:28any wise counsel,
13:29but because the US
13:30financial markets,
13:31you know,
13:32went down,
13:33you know,
13:34then temporarily
13:34it reduced the tariff
13:36on China,
13:36which is largely
13:37for most of the product
13:38categories about 30%.
13:40And now with,
13:41you know,
13:41the court,
13:43the Manhattan-based
13:44court of international
13:44trade,
13:46you know,
13:46having come up
13:47with this judgment,
13:48you know,
13:49that US Congress
13:50has the authority
13:51to,
13:51you know,
13:53fiddle with the parameters
13:54and the policy changes
13:55in international trade
13:56and not the president.
13:58And the president
13:58only has some
13:59emergency powers,
14:00which is not the case.
14:02So I think 10 days
14:03they have given
14:04to the US administration,
14:06but in all probability
14:07they'll go to higher courts.
14:08And even on Howard,
14:11I think,
14:12you know,
14:13Howard has got
14:14its ranking,
14:15you know,
14:16its position,
14:17you know,
14:17as a higher education
14:18institution,
14:20not just like that.
14:21I mean,
14:21they're one of the
14:21highest ranked universities.
14:23If you go by QS ranking
14:24or Times ranking,
14:25because of the academic freedom,
14:27you know,
14:27they were given
14:28all the time,
14:29you know.
14:29So I think a lot of things
14:31Trump has questioned there,
14:32you know,
14:33they've said today.
14:34In fact,
14:34today he said,
14:35yesterday perhaps he said
14:36that the total cap
14:37on foreign students,
14:38you know,
14:38from the current 30%,
14:4031%,
14:41which Howard said
14:42that is actually 27%,
14:43should go down to 15%,
14:45he has said.
14:45About $2.2 billion
14:47of,
14:47you know,
14:48funds,
14:49federal funds
14:49have been frozen.
14:50So I think,
14:51you know,
14:52I think change in governance
14:53is also what he's trying to do.
14:55So I think,
14:56as he says,
14:57schools will do
14:58a far better job.
14:59So I think,
15:00you know,
15:00this is a classic case
15:01of a lot of policy flip-flops
15:02which is happening.
15:04And,
15:04you know,
15:05if the current
15:05things are in education,
15:06I don't think
15:07he will go far
15:08in his proposals.
15:09You know,
15:12I want to come to you,
15:13KC Singh.
15:14Let's for a moment
15:14also look at
15:15where Trump is standing
15:17on the diplomatic front.
15:18He wants to be
15:19in the center of everything.
15:21But what we are seeing
15:22is Vladimir Putin
15:23doesn't seem to be
15:24listening to Donald Trump.
15:25And Donald Trump
15:26is now shouting irately
15:27even at Vladimir Putin.
15:29We've already seen
15:30his run-in with Zelensky.
15:32He hasn't made much headway
15:33in the Middle East as well.
15:35Netanyahu
15:35is continuing to bomb Gaza.
15:38You've got a leader
15:39who deals
15:40with the same
15:41Syrian leadership
15:42that he said
15:42and was seen
15:44to be part of Al-Qaeda.
15:46He's striking business
15:48deals with the Saudis,
15:49with the Qataris,
15:50who he called
15:51sponsors of terror.
15:52On India and Pakistan,
15:54he's claiming
15:54credit for the ceasefire
15:56with absolutely
15:57no evidence of the same.
15:58Is Donald Trump
15:59now getting slowly
16:01but surely exposed
16:02even diplomatically?
16:03I think I'll be
16:07a little careful
16:08because he is
16:10not going to stop.
16:11His disruption
16:12is not going to end.
16:14He still feels
16:15the Supreme Court
16:16is with him.
16:17It has a 6-3
16:17conservative majority.
16:19He will go up to that.
16:21Also, remember
16:23that some of the tariffs
16:24like on irons,
16:26aluminium and cars
16:27are not under this act.
16:29Under this act,
16:30he was only using tariffs.
16:31This is the 79 Act,
16:33which he was using
16:34kind of economic emergency,
16:37which is used really
16:38for entirely different reasons
16:41when you're boycotting
16:42a country,
16:43when you're imposing sanctions
16:45and so on and so forth.
16:46So this,
16:47he will go to the next court
16:48but he will try shifting
16:50some of these tariffs
16:51to existing laws.
16:53He's got other instruments.
16:55He can start investigations.
16:58He can start proceedings.
16:59So he so far has shown
17:02that he is completely committed
17:04to his disruptive behavior
17:06and he's not about to mend
17:09or to learn anything from it
17:11because until the U.S. Congress,
17:13the Republicans in the U.S. Congress
17:15push back
17:16and we've not seen that.
17:17They passed the budget
17:18in the Senate
17:19even though with a one-seat majority
17:22in the Congress
17:23and now it's with the Senate.
17:26One of the things that...
17:27Even diplomatically,
17:28Casey Singh,
17:29Casey Singh,
17:30even diplomatically,
17:31all the moves
17:33that Donald Trump
17:34made in the four months,
17:35he claimed,
17:35I'm going to sort out
17:36Ukraine, Russia,
17:37I'm going to sort out
17:38what's happening
17:38in the Middle East.
17:39He hasn't succeeded.
17:41All I'm saying
17:42is at the moment,
17:43Trump seems to,
17:45his bark seems to be
17:46worse than his bite.
17:48He's not on,
17:49forget tariffs with China now,
17:51he's looking to strike
17:52a trade deal.
17:53Donald Trump seems
17:54to be caught out.
17:55You don't agree with that?
17:57No, because Trump,
17:58I don't think Trump
17:59realizes this.
18:00Trump is just known
18:01for a fact-free
18:03sort of narrative
18:05and he will change
18:06his narrative
18:07if he finds...
18:08Nobody took his thing
18:09seriously when he said
18:10he'll solve the Ukraine
18:11thing in 24 hours.
18:13Even when he's fighting
18:14with Putin,
18:14he's not about to start
18:15supplying weapons
18:16to Ukraine.
18:18He's not strengthening them.
18:20That's the only way
18:20to take on Putin.
18:22So when he intervenes,
18:23he intervenes only
18:24and the Economist magazine
18:25put it very well.
18:26He says he wants
18:27to intervene
18:28but then he stops halfway,
18:30never takes it seriously
18:31and he will move on
18:32to the next subject.
18:34And that is the problem
18:35when dealing with him.
18:36So do we take it seriously?
18:39So do we take it seriously,
18:41K.C. Singh?
18:41For example,
18:42when his Commerce Secretary
18:43in an official statement
18:44before a U.S. court
18:46claims that trade
18:47was the reason
18:48India and Pakistan
18:49agreed to a ceasefire,
18:50is this Donald Trump
18:51lying to a U.S. court
18:53on record?
18:54Is he a liar?
18:56Donald Trump
18:57lives in alternative reality.
18:59I don't think
19:00he considers that lying.
19:02Well, it is true.
19:03It may be possible
19:04that Marco Rubio,
19:06when he spoke,
19:07he mentioned the trade thing.
19:09But it doesn't mean
19:10that that is what
19:10motivated India
19:11or that's what
19:12motivated Pakistan
19:13to finally have
19:15their DGMO call us.
19:16But what their perception is
19:18may be different
19:19from our perception.
19:19They may not be lying.
19:20It's just a misperception.
19:22But they would have raised it.
19:24But look at it this way.
19:25His tariffs
19:26he uses continuously.
19:27He thinks
19:28it's like a stick in his hand.
19:30With Canada,
19:31he uses tariffs
19:31because you're sending fentanyl.
19:33You're lying immigration.
19:34When there is no,
19:35not much fentanyl
19:36coming from Canada
19:37against Mexico,
19:39he uses it again.
19:40Illegal immigration,
19:42fentanyl.
19:42But it's not,
19:43you know,
19:44but K.C. Singh,
19:45sorry,
19:45you know,
19:46let's be clear.
19:47Let's cut the change.
19:48It's not working.
19:49It's not working.
19:50The Canadians have chosen
19:51someone who stood up to Trump.
19:53The Australians are choosing
19:55a leader who's standing up to Trump.
19:56The world is not listening
19:57to Donald Trump.
19:58That's the point.
19:59A quick answer to that.
20:00Do you agree
20:01that Donald Trump
20:02is rapidly running out
20:04of the equity
20:05he seemed to have
20:06when he started off?
20:07The world is no longer
20:08scared of Donald Trump,
20:09the bully.
20:10No,
20:10that's what I'm telling you,
20:11that until the U.S. Congress
20:13and the Republicans
20:14wake up,
20:16it's not,
20:17Trump is not going
20:18to be controlled.
20:19He doesn't care
20:19what the world thinks.
20:20He will just,
20:21you know,
20:22reimagine it
20:23and come out
20:23with a new interpretation
20:24of that
20:24until his party
20:26wakes up.
20:27And that will not happen
20:28until they're closer
20:29to the midterms,
20:30which is November
20:31of next year.
20:31Okay,
20:34let me just play out.
20:36Donald Trump
20:36was asked questions
20:37by journalists.
20:38And you could see
20:39that Donald Trump
20:40is clearly losing patience
20:42also with journalists.
20:43He's had a testy relationship,
20:45tough relationship
20:46with journalists.
20:47Listen to what,
20:48the question that was posed
20:49to Donald Trump yesterday,
20:51how he's responded.
20:53Mr. President,
20:54Wall Street analysts
20:55have coined a new term
20:56called the taco trade.
20:57They're saying,
20:57Trump always chickens out
20:59on your tariff threats
21:00and that's why markets
21:01are higher.
21:01this week.
21:02What's your response
21:03to that?
21:04Six months ago,
21:04this country was stone cold dead.
21:07We had a dead country.
21:09We had a country
21:09people didn't think
21:10it was going to survive
21:11and you ask a nasty question
21:12like that.
21:14It's called negotiation.
21:16You set a number
21:16and if you go down,
21:18you know,
21:18if I set a number
21:19at a ridiculous high number
21:20and I go down
21:21a little bit,
21:22you know,
21:23a little bit,
21:24they want me to hold
21:24that number,
21:25145% tariff.
21:28Even I said,
21:29man,
21:29that really got up.
21:30You know how it got?
21:31Because of fentanyl
21:32and many other things
21:33and you added it up.
21:35I said,
21:35where are we now?
21:36We're at 145%.
21:38I said,
21:38whoa,
21:39that's high.
21:40But don't ever say
21:41what you said.
21:42That's a nasty question.
21:43I can promise you
21:45and I have great respect
21:45for the people
21:46at the European Union.
21:48They wouldn't be over here
21:49today negotiating
21:50if I didn't put
21:52a 50% tariff on.
21:54The sad thing is
21:55now when I make a deal
21:56with them,
21:56it's something
21:57much more reasonable.
21:59They'll say,
21:59oh, he was chicken.
22:01He was chicken.
22:02That's so unbelievable.
22:03Professor Latham,
22:05we are seeing,
22:06therefore,
22:06Donald Trump
22:07getting increasingly
22:08impatient,
22:09it appears,
22:10particularly
22:11with his adversaries.
22:13Do you believe
22:13that a time
22:14will come,
22:15as Casey Singh suggests,
22:16where even his own
22:17Republican Party
22:17will say enough is enough?
22:19Yes,
22:19Donald Trump
22:20has got the presidency,
22:22but even his own party
22:23may find that he
22:24sooner or later
22:25becomes a bit
22:26of a liability.
22:27His coalition
22:29is unstable
22:31and has always been.
22:33His immediate circle
22:34of advisors
22:35are totally
22:36on Team Trump.
22:37There's no way
22:38around that.
22:39But the broader coalition
22:40that he sort of
22:41tries to represent
22:43and advance
22:45the interests of
22:46is really very unstable.
22:49When you talk
22:50about tariffs,
22:51for example,
22:52when you impose tariffs,
22:54you hurt
22:55the American
22:56working class.
22:58And at some point,
22:59the American
22:59working class
23:00is going to say
23:00enough is enough.
23:03When it comes
23:03to international relations,
23:05there's an entire
23:06constituency
23:06that still sees
23:08the United States
23:09as the global hegemon,
23:10the leader of the world
23:11and whatnot,
23:12and is not in favor
23:13of the United States
23:15disengaging from Europe,
23:16which is what
23:17Donald Trump
23:18is talking about,
23:19which is not in favor
23:21of the United States
23:22disengaging from
23:23the Persian Gulf
23:24and the Middle East.
23:26And so he's going
23:27to lose those
23:27constituencies
23:28if he continues
23:29to pursue those policies,
23:30which I think he will.
23:32There's a deeper rationale.
23:34I mean,
23:34it makes sense
23:35to pivot,
23:37as Barack Obama put it,
23:38but now,
23:39as President Trump
23:40is actually doing,
23:42pivot to the Indo-Pacific,
23:43which is why
23:44I think there's going
23:45to be a very good
23:46relationship
23:46between the United States
23:48and India,
23:48for example,
23:49because what better ally
23:51could the United States
23:52possibly have
23:53in the Indo-Pacific
23:54than India.
23:55But that's still
23:56going to alienate
23:57and irritate
23:58a lot of people
24:00who think that
24:01the U.S.
24:01should really be engaged
24:03in the Persian Gulf
24:04and the Middle East,
24:05should really be
24:06supporting Ukraine
24:07in their war
24:09against Russia.
24:11I can see
24:12the coalition
24:13fracturing
24:14and fragmenting
24:15within the next
24:16couple of months,
24:17frankly.
24:17Do you believe,
24:20though,
24:21Jai and Krishna,
24:21you agree with
24:22Professor Latham
24:22that actually India
24:23is one of the few
24:24countries with whom
24:25Mr. Trump may have
24:27a more
24:28relationship
24:30that may endure,
24:32given the fact
24:32that the trade talks
24:33appear on track
24:34for now,
24:35that India may,
24:36in a strange way,
24:37benefit
24:37from Donald Trump's
24:41politics and policies?
24:44So, yes,
24:45Rajdeep,
24:45for two reasons.
24:46You know,
24:46one is for geopolitical
24:47reasons.
24:48Our place
24:49in the world map
24:50makes India
24:52too important
24:52for Trump
24:54to ignore.
24:55And in this region,
24:56India is a very,
24:57very critical nation.
24:59And secondly,
25:00you know,
25:00I mean,
25:01once he has picked up
25:02a war,
25:02a trade war
25:03with China,
25:03right,
25:04you know,
25:04at somewhere
25:05he has to have allies
25:06which are,
25:07you know,
25:08with whom he has
25:09a better relationship
25:10and better trade relations,
25:11you know,
25:11and even manufacturing,
25:13you know,
25:13not all the manufacturing
25:14that he wants to move
25:15out of China
25:15and go to the US
25:16would actually do,
25:18but would actually happen,
25:19you know,
25:19I mean,
25:19be it Apple
25:20or any other product,
25:21you know.
25:22But I think India
25:23still is a better bet
25:25for Donald Trump
25:27than China
25:28because India
25:29is one-sixth
25:31the size of our economy
25:32is very,
25:33very small
25:33with both the US
25:35and China
25:35and,
25:36you know,
25:36little,
25:37but so far
25:38in his Trump 2.0
25:40innings,
25:40he has not shown
25:41any signs
25:42of being soft
25:43to India
25:44on tariff issues
25:45which would happen
25:47eventually
25:48as he's cornered
25:49from multiple fronts,
25:51the US courts,
25:52the academia,
25:53you know,
25:53countries around the world.
25:55I think in,
25:56you know,
25:57so far
25:57that may not have
25:58become very evident.
25:59I'm running out of time,
26:01Jayan.
26:02I'm sorry.
26:03I'm sorry to stop you.
26:04I'm running out of time.
26:05I just want to give Casey
26:06a final word on that,
26:07a short final word.
26:08Do you believe
26:09that the Trump-Modi relationship
26:11will endure
26:12beyond this current instability?
26:14Trump is using
26:15every opportunity
26:16to take credit
26:17for the ceasefire
26:18and indirectly thereby
26:19even embarrassing
26:20in a way
26:20the Indian leadership.
26:22But do you believe
26:22that this relationship
26:23will endure
26:24even in these unstable times
26:26that now confront
26:27Donald Trump?
26:28I think his ideological
26:30orientation,
26:31making America
26:32great again,
26:33his focus on America,
26:34America first.
26:36Personal relationships
26:37are not coming into it
26:38and we should not
26:40overestimate
26:41the role
26:42of personal relationships
26:43and that is why
26:44we've not seen,
26:46that's why
26:47even Apple,
26:49he told them,
26:49you have no business
26:50to be manufacturing
26:51in India.
26:52Now,
26:52what kind of a friendly leader
26:53will say a thing like that
26:55when that's not even possible
26:57because Apple
26:58can't move everything
26:59to America.
27:00Each phone will cost
27:01$4,000
27:02if you make it in America.
27:03But he is stuck
27:05in a certain mold.
27:06He wants to re-industrialize
27:07America.
27:08He thinks tariffs
27:09are the weapon.
27:10He thinks people,
27:11companies will be forced
27:12to come to America.
27:14And that being
27:15his primary focus,
27:16at some stage
27:17he would cut a deal
27:17with China.
27:19I don't think India
27:20should continue to hope
27:21that geopolitically
27:22he will weigh
27:24in India's favor.
27:25I will be cautious
27:26dealing with Trump
27:27because you don't know
27:28what's driving him.
27:29We know what's driving him.
27:30But you don't know
27:31how he will balance it
27:32when it comes to
27:33dealing with India
27:33vis-Ã -vis China
27:35vis-Ã -vis other countries
27:36vis-Ã -vis his larger motives.
27:40Let's leave it there.
27:41With Donald Trump
27:42you never know
27:43what tomorrow brings.
27:44But clearly
27:44the last 24 hours
27:45have shown
27:46that Donald Trump
27:48is being pushed back.
27:50The courts
27:50are pushing back.
27:52Some of his own
27:52closest allies
27:54are realizing
27:55that it's not
27:56quite working out.
27:57And Donald Trump
27:59may have to
28:00well course correct.
28:00but is he capable
28:01of course correcting
28:02or is he going to
28:03go on
28:04in his own
28:05unique style?
28:06We'll wait and see
28:07how that plays out
28:08but I appreciate
28:09my guest joining me
28:10here on my
28:11top talking point.
28:12Thank you very much.
28:15Okay, let's turn
28:16to another of our
28:16top stories.
28:17A big admission
28:18by the Pakistan
28:19Prime Minister
28:19Shahbaz Sharif
28:20who has publicly
28:21admitted that
28:22Indian forces
28:23pre-empted
28:24Islamabad's
28:25planned offensive
28:26on the intervening
28:27night of
28:28May 9-10th
28:29when India
28:29launched its
28:30BrahMos missiles
28:31to strike
28:32key military bases.
28:33Sharif was speaking
28:34at the Pakistan
28:35Turkey
28:36Azerbaijan
28:37trilateral summit.
28:38All of this
28:39also comes on
28:40a day when
28:40India's
28:41Defence Minister
28:41Rajnath Singh
28:43said that
28:44those residing
28:45in Pakistan
28:45occupied Kashmir
28:46are India's
28:48own and will
28:49return voluntarily
28:50to India
28:51soon.
28:52Listen in
28:52to Shahbaz Sharif
28:53and Rajnath Singh.
28:55We on
28:58ninth and
29:00tenth night
29:01we decided
29:04to respond
29:07in a measured
29:08fashion to
29:10Indian
29:10aggression
29:11and we
29:13had decided
29:13that at
29:154.30 in the
29:16morning after
29:17Fajr prayers
29:19Pakistan
29:20armed forces
29:22led very
29:25ably by our
29:26field
29:27marshal
29:27chief
29:29army
29:29staff
29:30sitting
29:30here
29:31Sayyid
29:32Asim
29:33Munir
29:33to teach
29:35a lesson
29:36to our
29:37enemy
29:37but before
29:40that hour
29:43reached
29:44India
29:45again
29:46launched
29:47missile
29:49attacks
29:49Brahmos
29:50and hit
29:52Pakistan's
29:53various
29:54provinces
29:55including
29:56airport
29:57in
29:57Rawalpindi
29:58and other
29:58places.
29:59Park
30:01occupied
30:02Kashmir
30:02people
30:03are our
30:04lives
30:04and our
30:05people
30:06are our
30:07friends
30:08and our
30:09people
30:09are our
30:10people
30:11Meanwhile, politics over Operation Sindhu rages on domestically.
30:37Hours after Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who was in West Bengal today, launched a fierce attack on the Mamata Banerjee government, claiming it had failed on several fronts,
30:47Chief Minister Mamata Banerjee hit back, saying the name Sindhu was given for political mileage.
30:52Banerjee dared the Prime Minister to hold elections in Bengal right away.
30:58Listen in.
31:07The Prime Minister is the result of the World Government of Bengal.
31:20It is very saddened to hear the voice of Prime Minister or all the opposition team.
31:46They are representing the country, the world.
31:51They are taking bold decision to protect the country's interest, national interest.
31:59Obviously, always we protect the country because it is our motherland.
32:05We will do that.
32:07But at that time, is it the time for Norindo Modi, Prime Minister of this country?
32:15And his presence of him, his minister said, like Operation Sinduk, they will do the Bengal operation also.
32:23Operation of Bengal.
32:25I challenge them.
32:27If they have the guards, you go election for tomorrow.
32:31We are ready and Bengal is ready to accept your challenge.
32:37Another war of words, this time within the Congress party, where day after day Congress leaders continue to target Dr. Shashi Tharoor, accusing him of being a mouthpiece for the BJP.
32:49Dr. Tharoor hit back, claiming that there were those who were needlessly quoting him out of context.
32:57The BJP has been quick to take advantage, question the Congress and is lauding Tharoor, claiming that the Congress leader is putting the nation first.
33:09The rift between Congress leaders and their MP Shashi Tharoor is escalating.
33:14Tharoor is now being labelled, modified by members of his own party over his statements abroad about 2016 surgical strikes.
33:23The Uri strike in September 2015, that was already something we had not done before.
33:32Even during the Kargil war, we had not crossed the line of control.
33:36In Uri we did.
33:38Then came the attack in Pulwama in January 2019.
33:42This time we crossed not only the line of control, we crossed the international border and we struck the terrorist headquarters in Balakot.
33:52Congress leaders are demanding a public apology, with some even suggesting that Tharoor could be suspended from the party.
34:00We should be going to blame them for the former supporters in the Uri strike.
34:12We already wrote the cùngers of the press.
34:14The attack is confusion.
34:15We should confuse them.
34:16We should confuse them so that them are not.
34:19The only thing is this.
34:22They believe that they have their own fault.
34:25They should believe that, they have the right to know that.
34:27But Tharoor is standing his ground.
34:39In a post on Platform X, he launched a scathing rebuttal,
34:42clarifying that his recent remarks were preceded by a reference to several terror attacks in recent years.
34:49He noted that earlier Indian responses were both constrained and restrained, respecting the line of control.
34:57Meanwhile, Congress leader Pawan Khera kept the feud going.
35:01On X, he posted a highlighted excerpt from Tharoor's 2018 book, The Paradoxical Prime Minister,
35:08in which Tharoor had praised the Congress-led UPA for conducting surgical strikes with restraint without politicizing them.
35:15For now, Congress leaders say they fully support the party high command if it decides to consider Tharoor's suspension.
35:22Dr. Tharoor has already clarified today that he did not mean that no action has been taken in the past.
35:29The BJP always tries to divide. They won't succeed here. Let them try.
35:34The BJP has backed Tharoor's India first official surgical strike claim,
35:40citing a 2017 response from the Army's Directorate General of Military Operations to a PTI query,
35:47which stated that there was no records of surgical strikes before September 29th, 2016.
35:54As the war of words intensifies, Shashi Tharoor's future in Congress party is now under a cloud.
36:00With Maasami Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
36:04So, what next for Dr. Shashi Tharoor?
36:08Joining me now, two people who've tracked Tharoor's career closely.
36:12I'm joined by Javed Ansari, Senior Journalist, and also joined by Sanjay Jha,
36:17former Congress spokesperson who worked closely with Dr. Tharoor at the All India Professional Congress.
36:22Appreciate both of you joining us.
36:24Sanjay Jha, what do you make out of Dr. Tharoor?
36:26Is this an individual who's getting increasingly restless within the Congress?
36:31Or are you going to blame the Congress leadership for targeting Shashi Tharoor so publicly?
36:37Well, Razdeep, I think it's a very complicated situation.
36:42For the fact remains that Shashi is an outstanding parliamentarian, a brilliant career diplomat.
36:50And as I keep repeating, I mean, often as possible, had he been fortunate, he could have been the UN Secretary General.
36:59The Congress party, I think, needs to be recognizing the reality that he's not the ordinary politician that we have in our country.
37:07I mean, this is a reason why the BJP, in fact, has made sure that he is the lodestar in this entire diplomatic offensive to talk about the post-Operation Sindhu circumstances.
37:21I think the Congress obviously has not given him the kind of respect that he thought he deserved.
37:26And very often what happens, Razdeep, and I'm putting it on the table right at the very beginning, that when you have a talented, academically, intellectually bright person like him, like Shashi, you normally expect to be in government framing policies and being part of whatever is your expertise.
37:45The Congress has been in opposition for a long time, and I think people like him and several other outstanding talent, like even P. Chid Ambram, must be feeling that they are at the periphery and not able to play a mainstream role in Indian politics.
37:58Therefore, it is important for the Congress to recognize that when you've got some very extraordinary, exemplary people in your team, you need to make them at least integral to your own opposition strategy.
38:11And I think to some extent, the Congress really hasn't handled that well.
38:14I'll be blunt enough to say that I would have liked to see Shashi actually be the voice in the Lok Sabha on behalf of the Congress Party, if not leader of the opposition between definitely when Adirandan Chowdhury was there.
38:28So these are calls that the party needs to make.
38:31Now, I know there has been a lot of criticism of Dr. Tharoor because, you know, people feel that he has veered away from the Congress line, that he is going to be more statesman-like.
38:41You can't expect Sashi Tharoor to be necessarily towing every word you say ad nauseum.
38:49I mean, he's got his own independent thinking.
38:51And I think in the matter of what happened between India and Pakistan, there are gray areas.
38:56And end of day, it's an opportunity for him to demonstrate, not just to the Congress or to the BJP, but to the people of India, that he is a politician who is different.
39:05And he needs to be, therefore, handled differently.
39:07Do you agree with that, Javed Ansai, that Sashi Tharoor is a politician who is different, needs to be handled differently?
39:17Or is Sashi Tharoor, in a sense, being a little ungrateful to the party that's also given him a fair amount in the last decade and a half?
39:25Rajdeep, frankly, both sides ought to have handled this better.
39:29They could have handled this better.
39:31The Congress should have handled Sashi better, given in greater prominence.
39:36His main grouse is he feels undermined.
39:39He feels he's not getting his due.
39:40He also, he would ideally want to be the face of the Congress party in Kerala.
39:46He would want to be the chief minister's face.
39:49Unfortunately, Mr. Rahul Gandhi and others have Mr. Casey Venugopal in mind.
39:55And that doesn't seem to be happening.
39:57And that appears to be increasing his frustration.
40:01Sashi has a lot of things going for him.
40:03He's a four-time MP.
40:04He's won that seat for consecutive terms twice at a time when the Congress faced disastrous defeats nationally.
40:12But one cannot also forget that he was brought into the party by Mrs. Sonia Gandhi in the face of opposition from the state leadership of the Congress party in Kerala.
40:25So, he's an exceptional talent.
40:27There is no denying it.
40:29But at the end of the day, when you join a party, when you're part of the team, then you have to play by the rules.
40:37It cannot be that there can be...
40:39Are there Congress leaders, though, Javed, are there Congress leaders who are insecure about Sashi Tharoor?
40:45And therefore, this is typical Congress factionalism and leaders who are pulling him down at every opportunity.
40:52Well, absolutely.
40:53Sashi, in many ways, is a victim of his own brilliance.
40:57There are a lot of others who cannot even, you know, show a candle to him, intellectually and otherwise.
41:04You know, he's articulate his range of experience.
41:08And therefore, people believe that Sashi has only joined the party, you know, 20 years ago.
41:15And suddenly, he now wants to be the face.
41:17So, they are jealous of his rise.
41:19They are jealous of his talent.
41:21Sashi also needs to take a...
41:25You know, he needs to be a lot more patient.
41:28In the Congress party, it's in a conservative party like the Congress.
41:32You need to bide your time.
41:34You're saying you need to bide your time.
41:38But the question, of course, also is, Sanjay Jha, you can be as brilliant as you are.
41:44But in politics, you have to follow, in the truest sense, a party line.
41:49And at a time when the party is asking tough questions of the Modi government post-Pahil Gaam,
41:54you've got Sashi Tharoor going out of his way to endorse whatever the government has done.
41:58The same Sashi Tharoor, who in 2018, writing a book called Paradoxical Prime Minister,
42:04accused the Modi government on URI of doing a particularly disgraceful dilution of the principle
42:11that national security issues require both discretion and non-partisanship
42:16and suggesting that the surgical strikes were being used as a party election tool.
42:21So, in 2016, in 2018, in his book, Sashi Tharoor is going for Narendra Modi.
42:27In 2025, he seems to be endorsing every move of Narendra Modi, often at the cost of his own party line.
42:34Is Sashi Tharoor simply someone looking for political relevance?
42:39Razdeep, let me tell you, I have read that and I'm sure Sashi himself is extremely aware
42:44of what he's written in the book and what he said in New York or in the United States.
42:49You see, when you represent the government and you are out there publicly in an international format,
42:56trying to address questions on what happened between India and Pakistan,
43:01he cannot, at that point of time, appear to be a politician.
43:04I don't think Sashi will ever deny that what the BJP did in terms of, you know,
43:09going public with the operation of the surgical strike or claiming credit,
43:14although it had happened during the time of Dr. Manmohan Singh as an overt operation,
43:19he's not going to repeat that when he's in the United States.
43:21That's not the principal objective.
43:24So in politics, and I have been part of it, there are times you have to do smart, selective cherry picking.
43:30That doesn't mean that you're in contradiction with what you said before.
43:33I maintain the view, Razdeep, that the Congress has always been the Big Ten Party historically
43:39and ought to be open to a diversity of thoughts, many of them contradictory.
43:45And, you know, the large party, you see, it is the mothership organization of the entire opposition, to be frank.
43:52And you can't be thin-skinned on these matters.
43:55I mean, what is Sashi doing? He's representing the Congress.
43:58And in my opinion, you convert this into a political statement.
44:01I have tweeted about it saying the Congress should ideally tell the people of India and should do it aggressively
44:07that look at the talent we have, that the BJP today, which has rubbished us, castigated us wrongly for being anti-national
44:15because we questioned them, now needs one of our best voices to talk about India's national interest.
44:21And that makes you a party in waiting to form a government.
44:25So, when you get a lemon, you convert a lemonade.
44:27You don't go and crush the lemon.
44:28So, you're saying he could be a potential shadow, have a shadow cabinet where Shashi Tharoor could be your face on external affairs.
44:35Mr. Chidambram could have been on finance.
44:38Is that part of the problem, though, Javed Ansari, the elephant in the room, the people around Rahul Gandhi
44:44who see the likes of Shashi Tharoor possibly outshining Rahul Gandhi.
44:49And therefore, let's not give Shashi Tharoor too much of prominence.
44:52He may well outshine our own leader.
44:55But I don't think their concern is so much Rahul Gandhi as themselves.
45:00Mr. Kesey Venu Gopal and Shashi Tharoor, they not only come from the same state, they also belong to the same caste.
45:09And Mr. Kesey Venu Gopal clearly feels that Mr. Shashi Tharoor is upstaging him.
45:15He has his eyes set on the Kerala chief ministers.
45:18The roots of this problem lie there.
45:19And as far as my friend Sanjay Jai was saying, you know, you need to cherry pick.
45:25But there are a lot of things that you can avoid.
45:28There was no point in saying that there is, you know, praising Mr. Modi for and saying that what happened in 2016 never happened before.
45:37Because that is factually incorrect.
45:39It happened.
45:39It's just that nobody, the previous government office, which Sanjay wholeheartedly supported, did not believe in patting itself on its back.
45:49No, but could all of this, Shashi Tharoor versus the Congress leader, no, no, but there was a time when all of this could be settled internally within party fora.
46:00Now it seems to be a free for all.
46:02Anyone and everyone is using social media to target Shashi Tharoor.
46:06Udit Raj one day, it could be Pawan Khera the next.
46:10The fact is that surely this is an, even if you have differences, settle them behind closed doors.
46:18Well, most certainly, and a lot of them feel upstage.
46:21A lot of them feel insecure.
46:24Shashi's brilliance makes them feel insecure.
46:28You know, is it about the insecurity that he brings Sanjay Jai final word?
46:32Or Shashi Tharoor also needs to realize that you may be brand Shashi Tharoor, but there is a political party you are part of.
46:38That there is an element of self-obsession, according to his critics, that prevent him from being a true team player.
46:45No, Razdeep, I can tell you that one of the things that you hear very often is about discipline.
46:50I'm all for discipline, but discipline cannot become claustrophobic.
46:55Because the truth, Razdeep, is if you go back into the history of the Congress party, you will find, and that's what the BGP tries to exploit.
47:03And actually, that should be Congress's biggest strength, that whether it's Sardar Patel or Pandit Nehru, Mahatma Gandhi or Netaji Bose,
47:09they were all brilliant people fighting for India's freedom struggle and had different viewpoints.
47:15I mean, I can tell you that in any organization, India today, you name Apple, people debate and they disagree all the time.
47:23So I think one has to be very practical and pragmatic about all this.
47:27I mean, you know, today, for example, I can tell you that even within the BGP, people may not say it openly,
47:33but they would be very anxious about the way the entire ceasefire was handled by the Modi government.
47:38So he articulated that.
47:40And I think the Congress needs to leverage that as its unique strength.
47:43You know, India is desperate for a party that has to fight for India's democracy, but needs to walk the talk by showing that we practice it at home.
47:53Charity must begin at home.
47:55The Congress has an opportunity to do that.
47:57I can vouch for it that Sashi is deeply upset.
48:00He ought to be.
48:01He deserves a lot more respect than he's been receiving.
48:04And you're right.
48:04You know, you don't need the social media, Razdeep.
48:06You just need to sit over a cup of coffee, have a conversation, express what your frustrations are, whether it's Kerala or whatever.
48:13And sort it out.
48:15Troubleshooting is why leaders are there.
48:17And therefore, I tweeted today to Mr. Karge and Mr. Rahul Gandhi saying, call up, Sashi, have a chat, break the ice and move on.
48:27Call up, Sashi Tharoor, have a chat and break the ice.
48:31Javed Ansari, you raised your finger.
48:3220 seconds, very quickly.
48:34Coffee Pe Charcha.
48:36The Coffee Pe Charcha didn't took place six weeks ago and it didn't turn out very well.
48:41I wish it was this easy.
48:45And both Sashi and the Congress Party need to be careful, need to make amends.
48:51Well, the truth of the matter is our politics is so hyper-polarized that the space for dialogue seems to shrink all the time.
49:01And politics becomes even more claustrophobic at times for particularly for talented individuals with minds of their own.
49:09Sanjay Jha, Javed Ansari for joining me on the predicament of being Sashi Tharoor.
49:14Thanks very much.
49:16Thanks very much.
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