'Dangerously simplistic' view of int'l relations: Trump 'unfit' to handle global threats, challenges

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00:00Let's move to John Bolton, the former National Security Advisor to Donald Trump from 2018 to

00:052019 and former ambassador to the UN. Also the author of The Room Where It Happened. Good evening

00:12John, thank you for being with us tonight. It's a pleasure to have you on the programme.

00:16First of all, there's a lot to get through. Let's just go back, 2.30 in the morning,

00:22Washington time, early hours, we had Donald Trump on stage, the confirmation from the news

00:26networks coming through shortly after that. Just tell me, you know, this is a, you know,

00:31once in a blue moon event, particularly with a political comeback like this, what were you doing?

00:36What was your reaction the moment that result was coming through and your immediate thoughts

00:41at the time on the ramifications? I was asleep because I didn't think there was any point in

00:47staying up. It looked to me like Trump was going to win and, you know, they couldn't call it

00:55exactly at that point, but I think you could see the direction. Obviously, that's

00:59fortunately or unfortunately turned out to be right. It's interesting, I know you've said in

01:04recent weeks before the election that you weren't ever going to vote for Donald Trump. You consider

01:10him and still do a danger, more of a danger to the office now than he was as the 45th president,

01:16but you also wouldn't have voted for Kamala Harris. So your vote actually, I think you wrote

01:21Mike Pence on the ticket, didn't you? I did, yeah. We didn't develop a Mike Pence wave nationwide,

01:27but I still think at least he did his constitutional duty on January the 6th,

01:32even if Trump didn't. Talk to me about Donald Trump because, you know, I mentioned you talked

01:39about the danger that he was brought back from the political dead. What is your chief worry as

01:45former national security advisor as the biggest security issue? Well, I think the United States

01:53and its allies face a wide variety of threats and challenges around the world and Trump is just not

02:00fit to handle them. He doesn't know much about international affairs. He doesn't know much

02:04history. He doesn't really understand the stakes that are involved. He thinks that international

02:10relations are largely the product of the personal relationships of heads of state, which is

02:16dangerously simplistic. And I think because he doesn't see things in strategic terms, everything

02:23is transactional, ad hoc, episodic, and seen through the prism of Donald Trump's own benefits

02:31from it. He can't distinguish between his personal interest and the national interest. I think our

02:36adversaries, Vladimir Putin, Xi Jinping and others understand that. I think they think they can

02:42take advantage of Trump and I think they're going to be working hard to try and do it.

02:47I can kind of guess your thought on this, but I would like to expand just where you see this going.

02:51When you've listened to the rhetoric constantly on Donald Trump saying, give me 24 hours, I'll

02:55sort out the end of the Ukraine war. I'm not the war president. I'm going to be the president that

03:00sees an end in a prevention of World War III. That's how he frames it. He says he won't go

03:05into it. He recently told Joe Rogan in this long-lasting interview that ultimately he'd speak

03:11with Vladimir Putin, he'd speak with Vladimir Zelensky and they'd come to a solution. What's

03:16your reading, John, from that? Well, he has no idea how to resolve the war in Ukraine. What he wants

03:23is he wants it off the table. I think he wants the war in the Middle East off the table. He views them

03:28as Biden's problems and he doesn't want to be burdened with them. It's really, it's fairly easy

03:34to end a war if one side surrenders. I'm very worried that what we're going to see, maybe not

03:40immediately, but fairly soon after Trump is inaugurated, is enormous pressure on Ukraine to

03:47make compromises that they consider really detrimental to the integrity of the Ukrainian

03:55nation, but with the implicit threat that if they don't agree, the United States is going to cut off

04:01military and economic assistance and I'm afraid the likelihood that most in Europe will do it

04:06as well. So I think Ukraine is in a very, very difficult position now that Trump has been elected.

04:14There's a big Europe meeting going on, Ambassador, in Budapest at the moment,

04:18between European leaders. Interesting that Giorgia Maloney, the Italian Prime Minister,

04:22saying today, she said the American quote, think not what you can do for America,

04:26she said she would change it. She said, think instead what Europe can do for itself.

04:32If you're a European leader right now, what should one be thinking?

04:37Well, you know, President Macron of France is basically now saying, repeating what he said

04:42before, he thinks there should be, in effect, a European defence capability. I think that's

04:47the short road to the end of NATO, whatever Trump does. You know, we'll see what the Europeans come

04:54up with. If they want, if they don't mind Trump withdrawing from NATO, I'm sure it'll facilitate

04:59his decision. You've spoken as well, we've heard this a number of times, about the idea that this

05:06Trump 2.0 would be an unrestrained gathering of yes people around him, unlike I think you've

05:12referred in the past to his policy on China would have been far more, quote, all over the place,

05:18wasn't, if it wasn't for those restraining him and saying, actually, this is not the way to go

05:21forward with Beijing. When you see the name Susie Wiles come up as his Chief of Staff, does that

05:27give you any reassurance? You've dealt with her, she was part of the, I think going back to the

05:31Reagan administration, all the way to staying with him since 2016. Does that worry you or reassure you?

05:38Well, she really has had no significant role in national government. And while being White

05:44House Chief of Staff is a highly political position, it's a position dealing with

05:51governance, not electioneering. In the beginning of his first term, Trump appointed Reince Priebus,

05:58the chairman of the Republican National Committee, as his first Chief of Staff.

06:02And so Reince had a lot of political experience, very savvy guy, but no experience really in

06:09Washington government, and he lasted less than six months. We'll see what happens here.

06:14Now, I'm not going to play it to you, John, because I don't want it to be an echo chamber

06:17of Donald Trump's comments and insults, but you'll be well aware of the Joe Rogan programme and

06:22the latest onslaught saying that you were a good guy, but quote, you were a nut job,

06:26that he should never have employed you, so not pulling any punches there in his thoughts about

06:30you. But and yet you, he said, scared other leaders, you know, particularly in the room

06:34with Xi Jinping, or talking to Putin, that they thought actually US could carry out any threat

06:40of conflict. Give me your thoughts on, essentially, your right to reply, really, to

06:48consistent name calling at the, well, the subject of your former boss.

06:54Well, it's a juvenile reaction, but it's very typical of Trump. He doesn't address policy

06:59issues. He finds policy difficult to understand. So he divides the world into those he thinks are

07:06loyal to him and those who are disloyal to him. And for those he thinks are not on his side,

07:12he results to playground kinds of epithets. I got over it long ago. I'm glad I may have played some

07:21role in upsetting the tummies of some of our adversaries. And if I did, that'll make me feel

07:27better. I spoke recently to Antony Scaramucci, former press officer, chief of press for Donald

07:33Trump, left, and clearly has made it clear that he's not supporting Donald Trump. And he said this

07:38to me. He said, you have to deal with Donald Trump in a way that you have to not let him think you're

07:44telling him something. So tell him stories about scenarios, story time about, say, Beijing or

07:50Vladimir Putin, but don't, you have to be very careful, treat him with kid gloves. For those who

07:55are dealing with the administration, potentially coming into the administration, if they were

08:00listening to seasoned timers like you, what's your advice on how you deal, how you bring in,

08:07how you restrain Donald Trump and his impulsive nature? Well, there really isn't any good way

08:13to do it. I mean, that's why I think he's not fit to be president. Wasn't fit the first time,

08:19isn't fit the second time. I thought in taking the job that like every one of his 44 predecessors,

08:27that the gravity of the responsibilities that he had, the importance of the decisions he would make,

08:32would discipline his thinking and his decision making and make it a serious process. Became

08:38clear very early on that just wasn't going to happen. So the best you could do is try to get

08:45him to focus momentarily on something that was important and get a decision and then act on it.

08:51But you could go back the next afternoon or somebody who didn't like the decision could go

08:55back the next day and get it reversed because he has a very short attention span. So this is just

09:01not in a dangerous and threatening world. This is not somebody who should be president.

09:06And that takes us to this point, Ambassador, when you look at the rhetoric previously used,

09:12the enemies within, you know, the sense that certainly the Democrats and other former aides

09:18to Donald Trump, those within the judicial process worry that he's coming for them when he gets into

09:23office. Two points really. One, that 25 minute speech he did, the victory speech, he was seemingly

09:30magnanimous. He didn't say anything outwardly insulting towards his adversaries, his competitors.

09:35Are we seeing a slight change here? Let me know what you think.

09:40No, I don't think Trump changes at all. I think, you know, he's 78 years old. He is the way he is.

09:45Every once in a while somebody says you could do this and it would help you if you made a

09:49magnanimous speech and he makes it. We'll see in a couple of weeks how he's doing.

09:54And that extends to you, Ambassador, whether you worry personally that you could become a target.

10:01Well, I'm sure I could be, but it's there's a long list of people he wants retribution against.

10:06Maybe I'm further down on the list than some others. So again, it's we're going to have to

10:10wait and see and we're going to have to wait and see what the courts have to say about it, too.

10:14I'm also very interested in your thoughts on Elon Musk, because are we going to look

10:19in time at the history books and analyse the effect of X and social media, the 500 million

10:26subscribers and the effect of lack of regulation, the algorithm, the way that it can pivot and

10:32whatever Elon Musk wants to use to formulate a support strategy for Donald Trump? Just tell me

10:38what you think as a former national security adviser, the level of concern you would have over

10:43Elon Musk and the social media strategy there. Well, I think it's time for revision to the

10:49statutes that have given immunity to social media platforms like Twitter. Whether it was a good idea

10:54or not in the past, it's clearly not a good idea at the moment. What role Elon Musk turns out to

11:00play is very much in question. I don't think he can really come into the government full time

11:06because he'd have to divest huge assets and make full disclosure, which I doubt he wants to do.

11:12But he's been a very successful entrepreneur. There's no doubt about that. But as with Susie

11:18Wiles, being a successful election politician, being a successful business person, isn't the

11:25same as success in the government. So I think he's interested. He may have contributions to make. If

11:32so, so much the better. But it's an attraction that's very new for him. And maybe when he learns

11:38more about it, he'll go back to SpaceX. John, you voted Mike Pence. Any idea how Mike Pence voted?

11:46I think he's made it clear he didn't vote for Trump.

11:49Not for John Bolton? Maybe he voted for me. Who knows?

11:53A pleasure to talk to you, Ambassador. John Bolton, former national security advisor.

11:57Thank you so much for joining us on France 24. Also, the memoir, as you can see in front of us,

12:02The Room Where It Happened from 2019, John's account of his time in the White House. Great

12:06to chat to you this evening, Ambassador. Glad to be with you.

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