- 18/08/2023
NME sat down with Irish singer-songwriter Hozier to discuss new album 'Unreal Unearth, viral hit 'Take Me To Church', his commitment to supporting the LGBTQ+ Community, co-writing with Kendrick Lamar's Collaborator Daniel "Bekon" Tannenbaum and maintaining his privacy
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00:00 I am a private person but I give a huge amount of,
00:02 like I do reveal a huge amount of myself
00:05 in the songs and in an interview like this.
00:08 Most people don't sit down, you know,
00:11 for NME and do a chat, you know what I mean,
00:13 talk about themselves.
00:14 (upbeat music)
00:16 - Hi, I'm Nick and I'm joined by Hosier
00:23 for the latest in NME's In Conversation series.
00:25 How's it going today?
00:26 - Yeah, good, good, thanks Nick.
00:27 Good to talk to you, thank you.
00:28 - Yes, thank you for joining us.
00:30 First thing I wanted to ask is,
00:32 what's the significance of the album title,
00:34 Unreal Unearthed, where did that kind of come from?
00:37 - Yeah, I was just playing with,
00:39 like Unearthed as sort of our world
00:44 that seems sort of unreal or surreal, you know,
00:48 not like itself, as sort of an unearthed,
00:50 but an unearthed to dig and uncover and reveal.
00:56 And yeah, so it was just playing with this,
00:59 playing with that, I guess.
01:00 And I think I started writing the album,
01:03 early parts of the sort of pandemic period,
01:05 the sort of lockdown period,
01:06 just felt like we were stepping into a new type of world.
01:10 And it was kind of surreal
01:12 and misinformation was big at the time and stuff like that.
01:16 So yeah, it was like,
01:18 it was playing with this sort of,
01:19 this new, stepping into a new space, a new world,
01:22 and then also just playful,
01:25 Unearthed as verb, as well as noun, I guess.
01:27 - You said it's an eclectic album.
01:31 Did you kind of, at the start, think,
01:33 I don't want to put any barriers on where I go this album,
01:35 or did it just kind of happen organically
01:36 that it became eclectic?
01:38 - I think it happened organically.
01:39 I knew there were certain sounds that I wanted to explore.
01:45 There were certain sort of textures I wanted to explore.
01:49 But part of trying to create the album
01:54 in this kind of lockdown period as well too,
01:56 was collaborating, sometimes at a distance,
01:59 collaborating with producers remotely,
02:01 and then doing sessions when I could,
02:04 and as I could as well too,
02:06 at the time where somebody might have to quarantine,
02:11 and then another person might have to quarantine.
02:13 And so that also probably allowed for this,
02:18 allowing one song to be itself.
02:21 But part of the idea too,
02:23 in separating the song into circles,
02:25 was allowing one song in its theme to be itself
02:29 and explore that,
02:31 knowing that the next circle
02:32 can be something slightly different.
02:33 So it was a conscious decision
02:36 to just let songs be themselves as well.
02:39 It just worked out.
02:41 - You spoke about the way the collaborations panned out.
02:43 You've co-written a lot more in this album than in the past.
02:46 What made you want to do that?
02:47 And did you enjoy that process?
02:48 - I did, I did.
02:49 I enjoyed it.
02:50 I think I'd never co-written with people before,
02:55 in that way.
02:59 So to just be in a space with musicians and jam,
03:02 that was a lot of how this music started,
03:05 how these soundscapes were made.
03:08 In particular, with the songs with Bacon,
03:11 with Dan Tenenbaum and his team,
03:13 with Pete Gonzalez and Chakra,
03:16 it was like we would just jam,
03:19 we would just make noise
03:21 and then see what would happen.
03:22 We'd record that noise
03:24 and I would take the sessions or take some stems away
03:26 and then build a song around it sometimes.
03:29 I wrote a lot of the work that I needed to on my own,
03:32 which is how I'd done the previous two albums.
03:35 - Was it quite scary to relinquish control
03:37 in that way at the start?
03:39 - I think at first, I think I'd been past it.
03:42 It actually wasn't scary.
03:44 I will say this.
03:44 It was good because when I would go in
03:46 with the purposes of just jamming,
03:50 it's a total nothing ventured, nothing gained.
03:53 It's like, cool, worst thing happens
03:56 is you jam a song that you don't connect with
04:00 or you don't feel something has come,
04:01 but it was so quick and so rewarding.
04:04 It was very fast that we'd got this shared thing
04:08 of like, okay, we're making something cool here,
04:10 let's stick to it.
04:11 It was intensely creative and intensely productive
04:13 and it was, so it wasn't scary.
04:16 It was like, this is something in some of those songs
04:18 that didn't existed before
04:20 and now we've all just summoned it into the space.
04:22 And I think once I knew that I had the freedom
04:25 to make sure that the lyrics resonated with me
04:27 and I could sort of build that part of the song
04:30 in my own time, in my own space,
04:32 that really, that was everything to me
04:34 and that's how I always have written.
04:37 So in that regard, it wasn't scary, which is good.
04:41 - You've spoken about the literary influence on the album,
04:43 like Dante's "Inferno."
04:44 Were they there from the start?
04:46 Was that something that kind of inspired you
04:47 right at the beginning?
04:48 - It was early, yeah, it was there early.
04:50 And I think I was just like writing or reading,
04:52 I should say, some sort of like old poems, old poetry,
04:57 that the free time in the pandemic allowed me
05:01 the sort of mental space, the sort of,
05:04 the time also to sit down and read,
05:06 stuff that I'd always sort of like,
05:10 beaten myself up over being the college dropout that I am,
05:14 that it's like, okay,
05:15 I never really sat down with these works, you know?
05:17 And not that I would have studying music to be fair,
05:19 but "Inferno," some stuff by Ovid, "Metamorphosis,"
05:24 you know, some of these kind of epic poems
05:27 and just exploring those and their devices.
05:31 They're sort of like, in the case of like Ovid,
05:33 like an epic simile, you know,
05:36 like using a long, long simile,
05:39 that kind of Homeric way of taking six, seven, eight lines
05:42 to describe somebody trembling, you know?
05:45 So yeah, so I remember some of these sessions
05:48 of a song called "Through Me,"
05:50 which was on the first EP that we released this year.
05:53 I definitely just wanting to write stuff
05:55 that had this kind of epic simile feel to it,
05:56 just letting these sort of lines spill over.
06:00 So that sort of found its way into the work,
06:02 but with Dante, there's this line,
06:05 "Above the door of hell," as he imagines it,
06:07 he writes it, "Through me,
06:09 "you enter into the population of loss."
06:12 So it's, "Through me, you enter into the city of woe.
06:14 "You enter into eternal pain.
06:16 "Through me, you enter into the population of loss."
06:20 And something about that line,
06:21 "To enter into the population of loss,"
06:23 it just, it's resonated with me,
06:24 given the moment that it was, was March or April, 2020.
06:27 All these figures, just numbers,
06:31 kind of being thrown at us every day.
06:33 This great risk of all of us having a great deal to lose,
06:36 not only personally, but in our relationships
06:38 and professionally also, and that just resonated with me.
06:42 So that's, it's sort of, but early on, yeah.
06:47 A lot of the songs were like nearly too,
06:49 referenced the text way too much.
06:51 It was kind of becoming, I won't say too much,
06:53 but it was becoming nearly musical theater.
06:54 So it was, but I always wanted to, it was always there.
06:58 There was always something there I wanted to explore.
07:02 - You said that one of the songs
07:03 you're particularly proud of is "Butchered Tongue."
07:06 - Mm.
07:07 - What is it about that song that you're proud of?
07:08 'Cause it's quite violent in its imagery, isn't it?
07:11 People might be surprised.
07:12 - Yeah, it is.
07:14 And it is, it's in the circle of violence,
07:15 you know, appropriately enough.
07:17 I'd never put a voice to,
07:19 and it's quite a particular experience
07:21 of just traveling to different places
07:23 you've never been before and asking locals,
07:26 let's say a place with an interesting place name
07:29 that might have an indigenous root to it,
07:31 and asking locals, you know, what is the name?
07:33 What does this place name mean?
07:35 And no one being able to tell you what it means.
07:38 And there's, it's very sad.
07:41 And that song tries to hold, in one hand,
07:45 the reality of that, the actuality of what that means
07:50 for the people who, once upon a time, this was home to,
07:54 but also the reality of who lives there now,
07:57 that this is just to be met by those locals
08:00 with such generosity of spirit,
08:02 and that this place means home to them.
08:06 So it tries to hold in both hands both of those things.
08:11 It's a very short song,
08:13 but it's just like a poem set to music, I suppose.
08:15 So, and it's just not something I'd really explored before.
08:18 - How did the journey of Brandy Kallau come about?
08:21 - Yeah, I've known Brandy for a few years.
08:24 I think we met in Newport Folk Festival years ago.
08:28 She's an incredible artist, she's an incredible singer,
08:31 somebody I have huge respect and admiration for.
08:35 And we, you know, become friends over the years.
08:37 And she's invited me into such incredible experiences
08:42 and spaces.
08:44 But when I was writing it, I kind of knew
08:48 the song was always a duet, it was always,
08:51 and her voice is just one of those voices.
08:56 I kept hearing her voice in that song.
08:58 It needed something that was soaring,
08:59 it needed a voice that was as powerful as Brandy.
09:03 And there's not many singers that have a voice like her.
09:08 You know, she has this,
09:09 she just has incredible instrument on her hands.
09:12 She has this incredibly courageous,
09:16 the way she swings for notes.
09:18 Her voice is absolutely, you know, it's stratospheric.
09:21 It totally soars.
09:23 I'd always heard her in that.
09:26 So I shared it with her and in her, yeah,
09:29 in her grace and her crazy schedule,
09:30 she managed to record her parts on that
09:34 from her studio in Seattle or just outside Seattle.
09:38 And yeah, it was great.
09:40 It was great.
09:41 Delighted that we could get on that song together.
09:43 - Was it quite amazing when you, I guess,
09:45 got her isolated vocal parts in your inbox
09:48 and just heard them without any music?
09:49 - Yeah, it was wild.
09:50 We did a remote session.
09:52 So I was on, I was listening to her put it down,
09:56 but to hear she, at the time, she was just so giving.
09:59 And so she was like, let me do a few more runs.
10:01 Let me do a few more, let me do a few more sort of,
10:04 especially, she would just try stuff,
10:06 just try harmonies,
10:07 just try different ad libs as well towards the end.
10:10 And yeah, every single time, just absolutely,
10:15 just she'd open her mouth
10:18 and just knock it out of the park.
10:19 So it was really, really exciting
10:20 to just hear her in real time.
10:23 Putting her vocals on that track for the first time
10:25 was a really good feeling.
10:26 - Another influence on the album, "Grunge,"
10:28 which we can hear in places.
10:29 Was that something you listened to a lot growing up
10:31 or did you kind of explore it later?
10:33 - I did a little bit.
10:34 I did a little bit.
10:35 I remember in primary school, yeah,
10:37 Nirvana was the coolest thing we could listen to.
10:41 And I was like, even when I was over 10 or 11,
10:44 you know, in the sort of late '90s
10:46 and then early, early 2000s.
10:48 But I think it's something that, it's like anything.
10:52 It's like an early formative sort of soundscape
10:54 that sort of sits in you.
10:56 And I'd never explored sort of playing with that.
10:58 And a song like "Francesca"
10:59 is a little bit of it in who we are.
11:01 I'd never really just, I never really played with it.
11:04 So, and part of it also is being in a studio
11:06 where you have access to these beautiful amplifiers,
11:09 these beautiful toys, these great guitars,
11:12 these great amplifiers.
11:13 And you just wanna make noise, you know?
11:15 And so there is that too, you know?
11:18 But it felt good to open that door.
11:19 - Yeah, to experiment with it a bit.
11:22 You did a secret set at Glastonbury earlier this summer.
11:25 And you've also, you did a surprise kind of busking thing
11:28 at Brighton for Pride.
11:29 I was wondering, 'cause you play such huge venues now.
11:31 You've just done Alexander Palace.
11:32 We've got Arenas late this year.
11:33 Is it fun for you to do those kind of guerrilla gigs
11:36 here and there?
11:37 - It is, it really is.
11:38 And I think when you're doing them the first time around,
11:40 I mean, they're not guerrilla gigs
11:41 when you're doing them on the way up, as it were, you know?
11:44 They're fraught with that thing of like,
11:48 oh, I hope this works out, you know what I mean?
11:51 This is my first time doing this club show
11:53 or this iconic sort of grungy venue, you know?
11:57 So to come back,
11:58 especially when you feel a bit more established
12:00 and you've got the kind of,
12:01 the ground is settled beneath your feet, it's super fun.
12:05 And then it's just a party.
12:06 Like, it's like you're just doing these kind of sweat boxes.
12:10 But to do Glastonbury, we did a whole club run.
12:13 We did Barry Ballroom in the States recently.
12:15 We did like Troubadour.
12:16 But yeah, to come back and do something,
12:17 to just jump into a tent in Glastonbury
12:20 and I mean, there's a little bit of nerves too,
12:23 because it's like everybody has a schedule
12:24 for what they think they want to see that day.
12:26 So to just jump in that day and go,
12:28 hey, also I'm here.
12:30 You know, you kind of take a bit of a risk.
12:31 But the tent filled quickly.
12:34 We just had a party and it was a good time.
12:36 It feels good.
12:37 - What about pitching up in Brighton City Centre
12:39 for busking?
12:40 Like, are you worried, like on some level,
12:41 that if no one turns up?
12:43 'Cause it's not like when you're starting out
12:44 and no one knows who you are.
12:45 If not many people turned up, it's like,
12:47 people would know.
12:48 - Yeah, the weather was shocking as well.
12:50 (laughing)
12:51 So we did play in torrential rain.
12:54 No, it was good.
12:55 It feels good.
12:56 It's really, it's just really enjoyable.
12:59 It's just a nice way to connect.
13:01 And it does, it reminds you,
13:02 it's something you get so used to doing
13:05 when you're sort of starting out.
13:07 Doing it again, it's nice to just use that muscle again.
13:10 And you're kind of right on top of people.
13:12 And it does away with the conceit of a show,
13:16 you know what I mean?
13:17 Of a stage and an audience.
13:18 You kind of just, you're in space
13:20 and you're playing a song and people are,
13:22 you could say there's still an audience,
13:23 but there's just something about,
13:25 it's just very grounded.
13:26 It's just very, it's an interaction, you know?
13:29 - It's been nearly 10 years since Take Me to Church.
13:33 I think a month of 10 years.
13:34 I was looking at the stats.
13:36 I mean, it's just, it's wild.
13:37 I think 2.1 billion Spotify streams.
13:40 It's 12 times platinum in the States.
13:42 I mean, I could go on with this.
13:43 But like, can you ever kind of fully process
13:45 that level of success?
13:46 'Cause it's phenomenal.
13:47 - Yeah, I think I'd stopped, you know.
13:50 - Sorry for bringing up the stuff.
13:51 - No, not at all, no.
13:52 I kind of just, I think you do,
13:56 you stop looking at the,
13:58 you kind of just check out of the numbers or something.
14:01 And I also try not to like quantify to myself
14:05 what a song has done or is based on its,
14:09 based on its like numeric, on its numbers.
14:11 You know what I mean?
14:12 It's kind of like, what numbers it's done.
14:15 And like for me, when I wrote it, I was super proud of it.
14:20 And I've been incredibly proud that that song
14:22 of everything I've written was the one
14:24 that was like this crossover hit.
14:26 It was very, it was an unusual popular crossover,
14:30 an unusual pop hit at the time,
14:32 an unusual sort of radio success.
14:34 But I'm proud of anything that I've written
14:36 that it was that one.
14:37 And I'm very happy that it was that one.
14:39 And yeah, it's been a gift, a gift for me.
14:44 And so yeah, but I think there's some
14:49 internal janitorial work.
14:53 It's just like stepping away from thinking about
14:57 cluttering your head with, okay, did this,
14:58 you know, what number is it on now?
15:01 You know, I'm just so grateful that it's connected
15:05 in the way that it has, you know?
15:07 - Well, I guess as a musician,
15:08 whenever you put a song out there,
15:09 it's kind of on some level,
15:10 it's no longer just yours, it's for everyone.
15:11 - Exactly.
15:12 - And it's just that on a kind of grand scale.
15:15 Like so many people must have connected
15:17 with that song for so many different reasons.
15:19 - Yeah, yeah, I think so.
15:20 There's part of that is, you know, you do,
15:23 you let go of it and it becomes,
15:25 it's accepted into the hearts of other people.
15:29 And it's either way, the listener always finishes a piece
15:32 and they always bring their own experience to it.
15:35 And I just, and that's "Taken to Church"
15:37 is a song that has just been taken
15:40 into a great deal of hearts.
15:41 And I think there's, what I've noticed
15:43 is there's a new generation of people kind of showing up
15:47 to shows and to meet and greets and stuff.
15:49 And they were a child when the song came out.
15:51 And that's because it puts years on me.
15:54 And they're like, "Hey, I was eight
15:56 when this song came out," or whatever.
15:57 I'm like, "No, no, that's, what?"
15:59 But what I'm, again, I'm really proud of
16:02 is that it's like, it seems to people connect to it.
16:04 And there's something maybe timeless in that song.
16:07 And in some ways it's more applicable to our world now
16:12 than it was when it came out.
16:13 And I think that might be part of it too.
16:15 But yeah, so I'm proud of it, yeah, for sure.
16:22 - Do you enjoy seeing people cover it?
16:24 I always remember Demi Lovato did an amazing version
16:26 of "Lifelong" where she really sang the shit out of it.
16:27 - She did.
16:28 I mean, she sings it way better than I can sing it.
16:31 You know, I mean, she sings those,
16:33 I mean, she's got notes for days.
16:35 She's such a, you know.
16:37 No, but she's got an incredible voice
16:40 and this incredible sort of range.
16:42 And so, yeah, she's excellent.
16:44 You know, she's, it is, it's a really,
16:47 it is a good feeling, you know.
16:49 I think it's the highest honor
16:51 when somebody's singing your work.
16:53 And I don't just mean like an artist like Demi Lovato
16:55 or, you know, anybody.
16:59 I think anybody.
17:00 I think that's the highest, that's the highest praise.
17:02 Basically, the medium now is becoming somebody else's body,
17:06 somebody else's hands, somebody else's throat,
17:08 and your work is living through them.
17:10 And that is as good as it gets, I think, you know.
17:14 - How would you say that music industry's changed
17:16 in the last 10 years since you broke through?
17:18 Like, are you a fan of TikTok, for example?
17:21 - I can't say I'm a fan of TikTok, you know,
17:23 but I, you know, these things exist
17:25 and they are interesting in that they,
17:30 in how they develop and how people express themselves
17:33 on them.
17:34 And, you know, there will be a next thing.
17:37 There will be something else after this,
17:38 but people for the first time are able to,
17:42 in this little, in social media,
17:45 are creating these moments that is,
17:48 that they themselves can be viral,
17:50 but they're taking from other viral places,
17:54 other pieces of music that resonates with them.
17:57 It could be comedy, it could be music,
18:00 it could be anything, it could be a line from a movie.
18:03 Creating this thing, even in a fun way,
18:06 even in a silly way,
18:07 but creating something new out of it that resonates,
18:11 that captures something of their experience,
18:14 that captures something of the world
18:17 and how it resonates with them.
18:19 And that's interesting.
18:21 It's kind of like this little video comedy sample culture,
18:26 you know what I mean?
18:27 It's sampling pieces of culture to create something else,
18:30 which is in turn is being referenced in creating something
18:33 which will be used for creating something new.
18:35 So that is interesting.
18:36 And it's created a new platform
18:39 where I think people have explored,
18:40 have experienced my music in a new way.
18:44 A new generation has discovered it
18:46 and I'm finding that songs that I didn't think
18:49 would get attention or get half the plays that they do
18:54 are being discovered and shared and become viral
18:56 years and years after the fact, which is interesting.
18:59 - It feels like all bets are off,
19:00 like you say, a song that's eight years old
19:02 can just suddenly have this moment.
19:03 - Totally.
19:04 - It's wild, really.
19:05 - Yeah, it's really interesting.
19:06 I welcome that.
19:07 - Yeah.
19:08 - Totally.
19:09 - It just goes to show nowadays,
19:10 you never really know what's gonna be a hit
19:11 and invert a con.
19:12 - Yeah, yeah.
19:14 And I think that's wonderful.
19:15 I think artists, they put so much love and care,
19:18 oftentimes, into the body of their work
19:21 and it's cool when somebody finds something
19:23 that years ago you were like,
19:25 oh yeah, I remember making that, I loved it
19:27 and somebody else discovers that for a moment.
19:29 It's nice, it is nice.
19:31 It's like, and it democratises a little bit,
19:35 I don't know, the enjoyment and creation
19:37 of something I know.
19:38 - Right from the start, you've spoken out on LGBTQ issues
19:43 and recently trans rights issues in particular.
19:46 What makes you wanna use your voice in that way?
19:48 Why is it important to you?
19:50 - I think there's, I've always just tried to be honest.
19:54 I think it's really important in your work to be honest.
19:56 People talk about what an artist's responsibility is,
20:01 oftentimes, and I find that a hard question
20:04 to tackle within some succinct, definitive way.
20:08 But I think you should at least try to be honest,
20:11 which is what I've tried to do in the work.
20:14 And so there's always been space in my work
20:17 for just my own conscience and the way I view
20:22 our responsibilities to a shared society that we live in.
20:25 But also I'm acutely aware, increasingly aware,
20:30 that there's always a portion of the population
20:33 who will become, who are at risk of becoming a scapegoat
20:38 when things get difficult.
20:40 And political leaders do not have easy answers
20:43 for the enormous questions that they're faced with.
20:47 Or even difficult answers,
20:50 which are oftentimes more important
20:51 for the difficult challenges that we all face.
20:54 We regard systems as they fail us
20:57 and fail us collectively.
20:59 And so oftentimes the easiest thing to do
21:01 is to hop on culture war issues,
21:03 is to hop on a scapegoat,
21:04 is to drum up some fear-mongering.
21:09 The minorities in that society
21:14 are invariably always going to be the first
21:17 to be targeted.
21:20 And I think we're witnessing that increasingly
21:23 with the LGBTQ+ community,
21:26 and particularly, yeah, the trans community.
21:29 - Yeah, I think you can definitely say
21:31 with the trans community,
21:32 they've become the focus of this so-called culture war.
21:35 - Absolutely, absolutely.
21:36 - Which is quite frightening, really,
21:38 'cause they just wanna live their lives
21:41 and they happen to justify their existence,
21:43 that's what it feels like.
21:43 - It's amazing, yeah.
21:44 And again, we're dealing with less than maybe 1%
21:47 of the population.
21:49 And if it's not,
21:51 it's always a portion of the population that oftentimes,
21:57 and if it's, or in the case of refugees
21:59 or people who have the least amount
22:04 of political representation,
22:06 the least amount of political power,
22:10 and are oftentimes shouldered with the majority of the blame.
22:14 And it's amazing, arithmetic is done somewhere.
22:18 And we, you know, we've a bunch of newspaper articles
22:22 and primetime pieces about, yeah,
22:25 that sort of shoulder all this blame
22:26 onto the tiniest portion of the population.
22:29 It's amazing.
22:30 - And there'll be, yeah, as you say,
22:31 like a primetime piece on TV about some trans issue,
22:34 and there won't be one trans person
22:35 asked to come and speak about it.
22:36 - 100%. - That's when you see
22:37 that, you're like.
22:38 - Yeah, yeah, it's incredible, it really is.
22:40 It's becoming grimly predictable,
22:42 but it's, yeah, it's remarkable, yeah.
22:44 - What do you see your purpose as a musician as being?
22:47 - I don't know, I think it's like, it's really,
22:51 for me, all I can say is that I just hope,
22:55 like all I can do is approach the work
22:58 and approach the art in a way that is honest as best I can.
23:02 I intend to make work that I hope,
23:08 at least in the moment of its making, is worth making,
23:12 that I find beautiful or worthwhile.
23:15 And if people enjoy it and resonate with that,
23:18 that's a gift, and I've been very fortunate in that respect.
23:21 But I think it's kind of a question that's beyond me
23:26 as to what my purpose is, but I try to keep it simple
23:31 as far as my relationship with the work
23:34 and my need to make it.
23:36 And I hope that people resonate with it.
23:39 - To an outsider, you seem like a pretty private person.
23:44 Is that something you've worked hard to maintain?
23:47 Or is it just you going about your life
23:49 in the way you consider natural,
23:51 and it's me projecting the word private onto you?
23:53 - Oh yeah, no, I am a private person, I think.
23:56 But I haven't had to work hard.
23:58 I think we, you know, people work hard to be famous.
24:03 (laughing)
24:05 Like, you know, there's a lot of,
24:06 when you see people taking photographs
24:08 of someone who was here and there and whatever,
24:10 people work hard to cultivate a public persona.
24:14 And I just, I don't have to do that.
24:17 I mean, I don't want to do that.
24:18 So I'd never be presumptuous as to, you know,
24:22 people would want to know anything about me,
24:24 and I'm delighted that they, you know,
24:27 I'm delighted that people enjoy the work
24:28 and that they know me on the basis of the work.
24:30 But there's no reason for anybody to know me
24:32 aside from that, you know?
24:33 And so yeah, I think, yeah,
24:35 people go to great lengths to be famous.
24:37 (laughing)
24:40 You know, so I actually don't work hard
24:41 to be private at all.
24:43 I share what I think is appropriate to the work
24:45 or what's appropriate to share.
24:47 And, you know, I think the reason why
24:49 I don't post all that much on social media
24:51 is actually just more mental health thing.
24:53 It's an internal janitorial wellbeing thing, you know?
24:58 I feel better when I just live in the here and now.
25:01 And so yeah, I don't have to work too hard at it.
25:06 - Is that something you realised over time?
25:07 Like, early in your career, did you post more on social
25:09 and have you become less kind of prolific?
25:10 - I think so, I think so.
25:12 Part of that is just realising it's like anything.
25:16 Like, this doesn't serve me,
25:18 it doesn't serve my wellbeing.
25:19 And social media has also become increasingly polarised
25:24 and it's become a ground for culture war, you know,
25:27 in a way that's increasingly corporately funded.
25:29 (laughing)
25:31 I mean, it was always, you could say,
25:32 but it's, you know, there's,
25:34 it's where a lot of sort of, yeah,
25:38 it's just, there's some spaces have taken a turn recently.
25:43 And, but I think I probably did.
25:46 I think when I was younger,
25:47 it was more just a playful thing
25:48 and it's much lower stakes as well too.
25:50 And you're kind of,
25:51 and you don't have an audience of maybe millions
25:55 and you share a bit more of your life
25:57 and you realise that, I don't know,
26:00 you just, it's just, the interest leaves you.
26:03 You kind of, you value your quiet time.
26:05 You know, I think I am a private person,
26:07 but I give a huge amount of,
26:09 like I do reveal a huge amount of myself
26:12 in the songs and in the work,
26:13 in an interview like this, you know,
26:15 most people don't, most people don't sit down,
26:17 you know, randomly and do a chat,
26:19 you know what I mean, talk about themselves.
26:20 - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
26:21 - So in respect, you know, in that respect,
26:23 you know, I'm plenty public.
26:26 (laughing)
26:27 - Plenty public enough.
26:28 - Yeah.
26:28 - Well, yeah, thanks so much for your time.
26:29 - Thank you. - It's been really fun.
26:30 - Thank you. - Cheers.
26:31 - Great time.
26:32 (upbeat music)
26:34 (upbeat music)
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