- 2 days ago
Hiredly’s founder, Derek Toh, breaks down the hiring trends shaking up Malaysia’s job market and Gen Z’s gig-economy mindset.
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00:00There's a danger that companies will try to paint, use all these props to try to send out a signal
00:05what their culture is like. To deceive almost. Recruitment is going to benefit a lot from the AI
00:11doing a lot of this non-intuitive stuff but you're always going to need that human being at the last
00:16mouth because even on the other side, on the employer side, it's a human being that's going
00:20to decide who they hire, not the AI. You hustle, you may not succeed but if you don't then you're
00:26almost guaranteed to not succeed, right? So it's as simple as that. If you don't want to work hard,
00:30how are you expected to grow?
00:39Welcome to another episode of Life Confessions where we speak to really interesting people
00:44and today we've got yet another one joining us. He is Derek Toh, founder and CEO of Hiredly
00:51which is a recruitment platform. Is that what you would describe Hiredly as, Derek?
00:58Yes, yes, 100%. We are a recruitment platform. We started off being about helping companies
01:04use their culture to attract talent and we resonate particularly well with like the Gen Y.
01:11Well, it was Gen Y then, the youth. Now it's obviously Gen Z. But we have expanded across the range
01:16so we do, you know, like even like older, like more senior roles now.
01:20Okay, when you say something interesting, you use culture to attract talent. What does that mean
01:25when you say you use the company's culture to attract talent?
01:28I actually think that skills-based or salary-based matching has been around for very long.
01:33Like an accountant knows what an accountant is doing, as an example, right? But this accountant
01:38can only work in one place, only one company. So I think if you really want people to
01:43grow in their career, skill-based matching is very limited. Actually, we focus on company-based
01:51matching. So I just want to make sure that we help you work in the right place. And if you're
01:57working in the right place, it doesn't matter. You're an accountant. You're an accountant
02:00in 1,000 different places. But if you're in the right place, your career is going to grow there.
02:04Oh, interesting. So it's not about the work you can do. It's also about the environment that
02:09you'd be able to excel in, which is the culture of the company, not just the basic day-to-day
02:16work that you'll actually be doing.
02:17Yes, yes. That's right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a nightmare, right? Imagine you are like
02:20a salesperson, marketing person looking for a job. The whole reason why the interview process
02:24is so painful is because you only find out if you like the place when you go interview.
02:28You know, there's just two wins, right? And you spend like half a day traveling, et cetera,
02:33just to have one. And it's so inefficient, right?
02:36Well, actually, that brings us to what we want to ask, which is when you first started Hirely,
02:40right? Was it truly about creating a better hiring platform? Or was it a reaction to your
02:47frustrations that you personally experienced navigating corporate life and job seeking in
02:53Malaysia? Was it something you yourself felt could have been improved?
02:55I think definitely both. When I came out and started Hirely, it was very clear that some
03:03of the existing platforms had some limitations. I mean, they've been around, I have a lot of
03:08respect for them, they've been around 20 years or so, but, you know, they haven't really
03:11changed since then. So I always knew there was a gap in the market. So, okay, we can build
03:15something. But what we built, I mean, this was a part where I think some of my personal
03:20experiences played a big role. So the reason why I use Accountant just now as an
03:25example, I was an accountant. So, yeah, so I, in my early career, you know, I picked
03:32like a job that I didn't know what I'm going to do. So my parents said, well, I don't do
03:35accounting. I picked it. I was actually working in the UK. It was a very, you know, very
03:41established, one of the big audit firms, you know, and if you look on paper, I am supposed
03:48to be happy. I am supposed to feel very successful. But I didn't though. I completely felt out
03:56of place. Again, I had a lot of people, colleagues that I looked at and said, this person could
04:02be a partner one day. No, but I just couldn't see that for myself. So it was one of the reasons
04:08why I came back to Malaysia. But when I came back, I, not only did I not do accounting, I went into
04:14recruitment. I mean, headhunting to be specific. So it's like HR plus sales. Okay. And I loved
04:20it. I remember the first time I picked up the phone to call a candidate. Yeah. And after like
04:26a five, ten minute call, I hung and said, oh, I think I like, I really like this. But it wasn't
04:30just a job that I liked. It was the environment that I was in at the time. So it was, I still
04:35remember, it was a young, it was still a young firm then. Now it's grown quite a little
04:38bit. And I love the people there. I love the management that I was working with. And because
04:45of that, everything clicked and I grew so fast in the organization. I grew so, I mean, it
04:49was a complete different experience from when I was doing accounting. So when I look, so when
04:53I was deciding like, okay, the existing job, okay, the existing job platforms need something
05:00new. I thought, I think it's culture. You know, so, so I got lucky. It was your experience that
05:07made you realize that because your experience in this company made you realize what a difference it
05:11made when you appreciated the culture of the company and not just what the work entailed.
05:18Yes. It's not just to work, but because I was in the right place. Yeah. So I grew and, and I,
05:23and so I got lucky. And for me, it's like, but no, not everyone gets to be lucky. Yeah. So why
05:29does it have to be like that? So we should create something where people don't rely on
05:32luck. It shouldn't be about luck. There should be a better way to find the right kind of company
05:36to work in. So, so, so that's how we set out. Right. You set out to create something that
05:42you stumbled into by luck and chance. So that other people don't have to rely on luck and
05:47chance. They'll be able to get what they want. Yes. Yes. Wow. Yes. And it was, and the
05:53way we designed it was very easy. All I needed to do was reflect on when I'm trying to
05:57help someone look for a job. What are the typical questions they're going to ask me?
06:00Right. That was it. So, so let's, I used that back the example of an accountant. Yeah.
06:04This accountant is not going to ask me, what am I going to be doing in this company?
06:07Because they already roughly know what an accountant is supposed to do. Yeah.
06:11What do you typically ask me is something like, oh, what are my colleagues like?
06:14Can you describe the colleagues to me? Can you describe what the leadership style,
06:18that you met the boss, is it? What's the boss like? Right. You know? And then they
06:21said, what kind of a, what's the company doing? What kind of vision do they, what are they,
06:24are they growing? You know, are they, you know, what is the direction they come back?
06:27Yeah. It's always about like the people and the, you know, like we use the term culture
06:32like, well, how, what, how, what's going on inside the company? Not so much about the job.
06:37Right. That I will be doing. Right. Like, what's it like, what are the people like,
06:40what are the relationships like, um, how are people treated in the company? Yes.
06:45Yes. So, you know, many people dream of building something, but not everyone actually makes
06:50it happen or they are too afraid to actually set out on a, on a thought or a plan or an
06:55idea, but you actually did that. Where did this push come from that you decided that you
07:01would make Hiredly happen? Um, I think two things. One, obviously we got quite lucky in
07:09the sense where I had this instinct that Malaysians would love a platform like this, a platform
07:16that's focused on culture. It was just an instinct. No, no market research and stuff
07:20like that. Right. No analysis. I just launched it. I got lucky. Like you, like there are so
07:24many employers. I still remember I have no sales team. I am the sales team. So many
07:28employers would write in to say, Hey, can I list on your platform? How do I get on the
07:32platform? And so many job seekers would write to say, Oh, I wish you existed when I was
07:36first looking for a job. So it was definitely a lot. I think the second thing was mostly
07:41ignorance. No, no. Blind faith. I completely underestimated how difficult it is to build
07:49a job platform. How big was the team when you started? Oh, it was just me. Okay. Yeah.
07:55Yeah. It was just me for like six to eight months or something. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
08:00Yeah. And it's really hard. Even until now, I would say it's very, very difficult. That's
08:05the only reason why until today, in Malaysia, there are not many job platforms to choose
08:11from. Yeah. It is very difficult to start with. So we are just one of the very few that
08:16have grown to this size, but it's so difficult. And what do you credit for the ability to have
08:21sustained until now? I'm going to say like really boring stuff, right? Like, you know,
08:27resilience. There's truth in that, right? Sometimes the boring stuff is real. Yeah. Yeah.
08:33It's a fact. Yeah. And it's always for different reasons. So for example, I tell, this is half
08:38a joke, right? Inherently, every year there's going to be an event that threatens to shut the
08:43company down. You know, every year. Yikes. Yeah. So I remember the first time we encountered
08:50this, the only thing I kept telling myself was, oh, but I just raised all this money for
08:55my friends, family, and I'm not going to disappoint them. So I'm going to figure out. So it's always
09:01like there's something that keeps me going. There's always a reason, right? So, so right now when we're
09:06going to this size, you know, I'll be thinking like, I can't, we can't just end this. And what
09:10happened to our employees? You know, we promised them that let's do this and that. So
09:16I think, yeah, it's a lot of resilience. And, you know, whenever faced with a challenge, I think
09:24what it helps, I think it's also for the team to have the right team that will rise up to meet
09:29that challenge with me. Was it difficult forming this team? Yeah, it was messy. Yeah.
09:34Was it a lot of hiring and then letting people go before you had the team that worked out?
09:42Definitely a lot of that. I would say the early years of Hiredly, we had a very strong founding
09:48team. Yeah. And then as we grew over the years, you know, I mean, even for themselves, some of
09:53them felt like, oh, you know, it's time I kind of try to look out and try something else. So
09:58somewhere halfway along the way, we definitely had a lot of change, I think, internally, right? So
10:04during this phase, I guess this was quite a bit of a challenge. I wouldn't say higher and
10:10higher, but I would say that there was so much change internally in the company that it was also
10:16not easy to find my own footing because the team is everything, right? Like, you know, I can't do
10:20everything alone. But now I would say 2025 when we're recording this, I love the team. We have a
10:27very strong team. It's a very different team from the team that we started with. Yeah. But the team has
10:33the same energy, the same, the same, the same love for what we're doing. Right. It's so interesting to
10:41hear you say this, because to see how a company that handles recruitment deals with recruiting
10:48their own staff is very, very insightful, right? Because you are actually performing the task that
10:56you are helping other people get done. Yes, yes. And we dog food our own product, right? Meaning that
11:03we only use our own platform to hire. So almost, I would say, other than some referrals and stuff,
11:10like maybe 80% of the people you see working at Hiredly were hired directly through our own
11:15platform. That is perfect. Yes, yes, yes. So you're the living, breathing example of what Hiredly can do
11:21because Hiredly was created through Hiredly. That is correct. Yeah. Yes, yes. Now the next
11:26question I have for you relates to something that's quite contentious. The Gen Zs are joining the
11:34workforce, right? They have been a part of the workforce already. And there's a lot of talk about how
11:39Gen Zs are more purpose-driven, but also some people feel they are more entitled and difficult
11:46to retain. There's this opinion. From your perspective, and you also would make the most
11:52sense because you actually deal with helping them getting hired, right? Are they really changing the
11:57job market in a good way? Or are we just lowering expectations to accommodate the needs
12:03of what we perceive Gen Zs expect? You know, when Hiredly first started, there were, I mean,
12:12Gen Zs were still in school. Yeah. It was the Gen Ys that were the fresh grads, right? Yeah. The
12:17millennials, right? The millennials. Yeah, yeah. Millennials, right. And all the Gen X people were
12:22complaining about the... The millennials? Yes, they were. They were called lazy, not loyal. There's so many
12:30articles on millennials. You can go. You can go find them. They're still there. So, and now it's
12:37happening to the Gen Zs, right? It's the millennials that are doing it to the Gen Zs. So, I think there's a
12:44combination of two things. Number one, A, when someone is young and new to their career, it's true there are a lot of
12:50things they don't really know yet. You know, maybe they need some time to learn about what the
12:56professional working world is like. So, you're always going to find stories of people who, you
13:02know, maybe like, oh, you're shocking and I can't believe that this person is like that. But, you
13:06know, they're young, right? And they'll learn and one day they'll grow. But obviously, but the
13:11second thing is, yes, of course, every generation is slightly different because we all grew up in
13:17different times. So, as an example, right? So, Hightly, we published a work
13:23culture report recently where we analyzed Gen, like Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z. And the data
13:29was very surprising. There's so many things about the Gen Z that people thought were true
13:34that were not true. So, I'll give you a very simple example, right? A lot of people associate
13:39the whole remote working thing to Gen Z. And so, like Gen Z are the ones that are pushing for
13:44remote work. They don't want to come into the office. But what the data showed was, actually,
13:48the Gen X are the ones that appreciate remote working the most. I use the word appreciate
13:53remote working the most, right? So, but they're not...
13:56Because their feet hurt, right?
13:57Their feet hurt. No, I think...
13:59Our feet hurt.
14:00I think a lot of it is because many of them, maybe they're families and so on. So, they
14:06appreciate the flexibility.
14:07Right.
14:08But they're not loud about it, right? They're not loud because they come from a world where
14:12remote working wasn't the norm.
14:14They tolerate not getting remote working.
14:17Yes, yes.
14:17That's what they prefer.
14:18Yes, they actually want it. The Gen Z, however, are very loud about it because when they first
14:24entered the workforce, this was during lockdown time.
14:26Right.
14:26Everyone was fully remote.
14:28Right.
14:28So, when companies started calling people back into the office, the Gen Z were like,
14:33why?
14:34Oh.
14:34You know, why do I have to go back to the office?
14:35Because we never had to.
14:36Yeah, well, why?
14:36Because they never had to.
14:38It's always worth without me going to office. Why are you suddenly asking me to come to
14:41office? Is this like a boomer thing?
14:42You know?
14:42So, it was working fine. Why do you need to make this change?
14:46Yes, yes.
14:46So, they were very loud about it. But in reality, flexible working ranks not at the top of a
14:53Gen Z list. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, every young new generation will
15:01have its own uniqueness. But at the same time, the Gen Z are young now. They're going to grow
15:07up. Yeah. And then when that next generation comes along, they'll call them lazy.
15:12The Gen Z will complain about the Gen Alpha. Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure it's just like
15:15when they join the workforce finally, right?
15:17It will be the same.
15:18You know, when you talk about work culture or a company culture being so important now,
15:23especially when you find you pair people through Hiredly with not just work, but the culture
15:29of the company that they're going to work for, right? Do you think companies are actually
15:33listening to what job seekers want when it comes to this? Or are they simply like offering
15:38trendy perks like a pool table and a gym membership, right? But they're not really making
15:46real changes in relation to how they treat employees. So, all this is just fluff, right?
15:54It's furniture. But the way you treat an individual, an actual person needs to change as well.
16:01Do you see that happening? Yeah. I agree that culture is just behavior, right? So, a lot of
16:09people, when I say culture, some people would think, oh, culture is like the benefits, you
16:13know, whether like, you know, like you said, whether there's a pool table there. Those things
16:18are maybe more symptoms or of a culture. So, let me explain what I mean. So, if I'm walking
16:28into a company, right, and I walk into a company, I see like a pool table there, right? I'm going
16:33for a job interview and I see a pool table in office. Yeah. I am going to imagine that
16:38the culture in this company is fun. Mm-hmm. It's light. You know, like this, the pool
16:44symbolizes that. It does, yeah. Yes, yes. But have you walked into a company where no one
16:47has to play pool, but the table is there? Oh, there's many. Yeah. Right? They put like an
16:51Xbox there or a PlayStation there, but no one's playing it. Yeah. But you walk in there,
16:55like, so it's used as a symbol to say, oh, this place is so cool. It's so fun,
17:00right? So, I think a lot of, there's a danger that companies are, I mean, both is
17:07true, you know, what I'm trying to say is, there's a danger that companies will try
17:11to paint, use all these props to try to send out a signal what their culture is
17:16like. Right. To deceive almost. I'm not, I'm not even sure they're even aware. Oh,
17:21okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not sure. Unintentional. Yeah, yeah. Because they've seen
17:25like some companies that a lot of people give very good ratings on culture, but the
17:30visual thing you can see is how the office is designed. So, you say, I want to be like
17:34this, so I'm going to make it look like this. But actually, at the very core, it's
17:38just how the people behave. That is really what their culture is. And that does
17:43happen. Meaning, are you saying that they do make these aesthetic changes, but
17:48actually at the core, sometimes the culture doesn't change in some companies.
17:51They make the changes that you can see to make it seem like a more, a better, a company
17:59that is more fun to work at, that is more open to ideas and opinions by painting the
18:07company a certain way with certain advantages there. But the actual way they treat employees
18:12doesn't change.
18:14You can put it this way, right? Let's say you're working in HR. It's easier to buy a pool table
18:19than to ask your boss to be open-minded.
18:22Okay. I mean, you're very clearly said.
18:25Very clearly said.
18:26But what I'm trying to say is, it's all coming with the right intentions.
18:30Right.
18:30You know, like, yes, I do want this kind of culture. And maybe sometimes, you know, if
18:34you design the environment in a certain way, maybe you do influence the culture to move.
18:39Right.
18:39But at the end of the day, I think everyone should still not make, should be still super
18:44clear what culture actually is. Right. Which is the behavior of the people.
18:48Right. It isn't the furniture, even though that can give you a perception.
18:52It sends a good signal. It is a signal.
18:55Right.
18:56And if you design the office or your props do represent exactly what is happening in the company,
19:03then great.
19:03Yeah.
19:03That's perfect, right?
19:04Yeah.
19:04But if it doesn't, that's a problem.
19:06Yeah, absolutely. AI is something that crops up in every aspect of our lives now. And obviously,
19:12it's something that is getting a lot of traction when it comes to jobs, job hiring, recruitment,
19:19with AI getting better at filtering CVs even, and conducting first round interviews in some
19:25cases. Do you ever worry that the human recruiter could become obsolete? And what role will platforms
19:32like highly play in the future with AI becoming progressively better?
19:37I think from a recruitment perspective, I've actually done the actual work of, because
19:45I was doing headhunting, I've done the actual work of recruiting for companies.
19:50Yeah.
19:52You know, there was once I interviewed someone, I interviewed a candidate and I thought like,
19:57this candidate is like, okay lah, so-so, you know, like got the right skills, but I'm not
20:01really sure if it fits this job or this company, but I just thought I'd try it. So I asked this
20:07potential employer, I found this person, I'm not sure, do you want to have a look? And they
20:10said, sure. So, so they interviewed the person. And then they came and said, oh, I love this,
20:14I love this person. Like, thank you for sending the CV to enter the what? Like, so it was like,
20:19for me, it's like, I did, I know, I was not sure, but they loved it. And I think what I'm trying
20:23to say is, and recruitment happens to be a very human activity. It's very intuitive.
20:31Sometimes people even can't explain why they click. Right. You know, that you can't be
20:35That's a very human part of it. Yeah. I spoke to this person within the 30 seconds, one minute.
20:40I think I like this person. I think we can get along. And a lot of things can't really
20:44be described. So I think recruitment is going to benefit a lot from the AI doing a lot of
20:50this non-intuitive stuff. But you're always going to need that human being at the last
20:55mile. Right. Because even on the other side, on the employer side, right? Yeah.
20:58It's a human being that's going to decide who they hire, not an AI. Yeah.
21:02If it becomes an AI one day, I mean, you're talking about a completely different world.
21:05I can't imagine that is. But the decision maker for hiring in a company is still a human
21:10being. Yeah. End of the day. So, so I think recruitment is going to be one of the last
21:16spaces where AI might like, I guess like disrupt people's jobs, the recruiter's jobs.
21:23It's so comforting to hear that. It's so comforting for me to hear you saying that you still can't
21:29imagine a future where robots have taken over the world yet.
21:33No, I can't. Basically, the AI is making all business decisions.
21:38All right. Yeah. It can happen, but again, like a completely different world.
21:42Right. So Arnold Schwarzenegger is not going to come back from the future yet to come and try
21:46to save one of us or kill one of us.
21:48Now, I would say that you're seen as someone who, I'm not the only person who would think
21:53this, obviously. Many would say that you're a person who's made it, right? But in a world
21:56where young people feel immense pressure to succeed quickly, what's something about your
22:03own journey that you think they need to hear, especially on the days when they feel that
22:08they're not doing well for themselves, right? And they feel like they're falling behind compared
22:13to their peers. What would you tell someone who feels that way?
22:17Oh, I was in the wrong job for 10 years. So, you know, I was like close to 10 years. And
22:24then I found the thing that I liked as a job. And then a few years later, then I started
22:32highly and it was also very painful again for another five years. So, and thank you for saying
22:39that, oh, it's seen as a success, but we are hardly a success by most ways how you measure
22:45a successful business. There's still a lot to do, basically. And yeah, if you're a young
22:52person listening to this, it takes time. Like you're going to make so many mistakes. You
22:57know, even if you're in the wrong place right now, you still have time. And I would say you
23:03have more time than me. You know, I'm like, you know, I'm always counting the clock. And
23:08I look at if you're in your 20s, your 30s, I'm so envious. You have so much time. Go
23:13figure it out. You know, like as long as you, I think as soon as you accepted that, oh, it's
23:18over, you know, like, oh, I'm running out of time, then it becomes a problem. But just,
23:25you know, you can just go and do stuff. Like go do it now.
23:28Yeah, I think it's really good for someone to hear it from you.
23:30Yeah. So sometimes people feel all this pressure, especially when they might look at someone
23:34like you and go that, look, he did it. He's amazing. Why am I not doing that well? And
23:38then they need to know that you struggled too.
23:40Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're going to look at, let's say, those famous entrepreneurs like
23:45Mark Zuckerberg who dropped out of university. I mean, those are very, very exceptional age
23:51cases, you know, but that's not going to be, why don't you know, you should look at the
23:55stories of people who started late.
23:57Hmm. And you're going to find there's so many more of those. There are so many more
24:01of those stories. There's so many of those. So, so yeah, you have time.
24:05Yeah. With your experience, right? What do you think is the most dangerous mindset that
24:10young Malaysians have today when it comes to their careers? And do you think that's something
24:16that as a society we can do to shift that way of thinking? Is there a, yeah, a way that
24:24young people think now that's worrying you when it comes to their careers?
24:28Yeah. Two things I've observed. So, so first one is, someone once told me that they make
24:35more money if they were to, let's say, do like a drive, you know, being, be a grab driver
24:44or a full delivery driver than getting a job as a fresh graduate. Right. And so there is
24:49this temptation to say, why am I doing this fresh graduate job when this other gig work
24:54is paying me twice the amount, right? And I have so much freedom there. And, and I can
24:58understand that. So number one, I want to say that if you need the money for whatever
25:02reason, right, some, I don't, again, I'm not in the right place to say that, you know,
25:06maybe you need to pay medical bills for people and then, okay, all, all great. Right.
25:10But, but if you had the option of, you know, earning twice the salary, but doing something
25:16like in the gig space or half the salary, but in a, in a professional kind of job where
25:23there's a ladder to climb, you know, and, and maybe upward mobility, upward mobility.
25:29Yeah. So you earn less today, but one day you're going to earn more. Yeah. You know, your,
25:33your income will keep increasing as your skill increases. Yeah. You should always pick that
25:37job that gives you long, like long-term salary. Always think, don't think short-term salary,
25:42think long-term salary. So, so I'm trying to encourage a lot of people to think like this.
25:47Right. Yes. It's very enticing, the short-term salary, but you have 30 years ahead of you.
25:52You know, you might be ahead of your friend. Oh, why are you so silly? You're earning half
25:55the salary, but your friend who's earning half the salary is going to earn double, triple
25:59your salary maybe five years from now, six years from now. So, so you should really be
26:02thinking long-term salary. I think the second thing is, um, obviously this whole hustle culture
26:06thing is, uh, I think it was a Gen X or millennial thing. And then I think I can see a lot Gen Z
26:14sort of rejecting this idea, you know, and, and for me, I understand. Um, I think, I believe
26:20one reason is because they saw a lot of people hustle. Uh, and then when the economy crashed,
26:25right. Uh, people lost jobs, you know, so, you know, so why, why do I work so hard? You see,
26:29you work so hard, you also, you know, you, you lost your job. Right. So, so what's the point,
26:33right? So, and if I work so hard, you know, so hard to get promoted, what's the point?
26:36So, well, I just do gram, right. So anyway, uh, so, yeah, yeah. So I think that's, everyone
26:43is a bit disappointed that the hustle culture doesn't necessarily give you what you want.
26:48Right. So, um, but I say this though, I think, yes, it's true. But at the same time, if you're
26:53not actually going to hustle, by the way, this is true story, I wrote about this before and,
26:57and I got attacked online. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. Is this like an idea from the, from the 1980s
27:03or something? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, so, so, so, so I can see that it's very dislike,
27:08like you old man, why are you asking people to work hard, you know? So, um, but, but I, I look
27:13at it very simple. If you hustle, you may not succeed. Okay. And there's no guarantee. But if you
27:21don't, then you're almost guaranteed to not succeed. Right. Right. So it's as simple as that. If you don't
27:26want to work hard, then how, how are you expected to grow? Right. But if you work hard, yes,
27:31maybe I understand you may not be, get what you want, but you'll still be ahead most likely
27:37than where you are right now. Yeah. Cause you're doing something to make a change. You're trying.
27:41Yeah. You're trying. You're actually trying. And then I know it's not so fashionable right
27:44now, but at the same time, on the flip side, if it's not so fashionable, I always think of
27:49things and that, cause I run the company, right? Everything is just a market in the sense
27:54where it's a competition. You know? So, so if a lot of people don't believe that they want
27:59to work hard, if you work hard, you're one of the few, you're going to stand out. So
28:03actually the, your odds of you getting a benefit from working hard is even higher.
28:08Yeah. When other people, they don't want to, right? So, so, so I'm the old man here telling
28:13people to do this, but many people, I know a lot of people are going to hate this, this
28:18idea that, well, I know lah, you run your company, right? So you want people to go, no,
28:21but it's for you. It worries me that you mentioned that this is something that got a lot of
28:27backlash when you mentioned it, because is there then the sense of not wanting to go
28:35the extra mile for a job because people think there's an easier way. Do you find this prevalent
28:41among young people enough for you to worry about it?
28:47Yeah. I'm not sure if I'm worried about it because I imagine like the world always adjusts
28:52itself. So, so, so, so let's say if, if everyone truly, truly doesn't care about it, you know,
28:58and that becomes the dominant culture, I don't think society will collapse, you know, like
29:03everything will just be fine, you know, then the companies will just adapt the way they
29:06hire, you know, and even if most people are not working hard, this, you know, they're still
29:13going to be compatible. The one that's working 10% harder might be with the one that, you know,
29:17that is fine. It'll work itself out somehow. Yes, yes. I always believe like the market always
29:21works itself out. Society always works itself out. But even when it does work itself out,
29:26somebody always comes out doing better on the other end. And that's when your work ethic and
29:33your ability to, they use the word hustle, but to want to work harder will play into where you end
29:41up on the other side of this settling of whatever work culture looks like or work looks like on the
29:47other side, right? Yes, yes. So, so when I share stuff that I'm not speaking to everyone, I'm
29:51speaking to one person, you, you know, someone who's listening to this and saying that, you know,
29:55yeah, yeah, you know what, I'm going to do it. You know, I'm going to try, right? And if I change
30:00one person's life and they work harder and they have a successful career, I feel like, oh, great.
30:05I'm very happy. But, but again, but if it doesn't change, I think it will be fine. Somehow society
30:10adapts. Yeah, yeah. You know, beyond being a successful founder, what kind of impact do you
30:16want Hiredly to leave on the next generation of Malaysians who are entering the workforce,
30:21especially those who don't come from privileged backgrounds, right? What's, what's your hope?
30:27Well, my hope is that we succeed in our goal to help people find the right place to work.
30:34And, and by finding the right place to work, um, their career actually grows and flourishes,
30:41right? So the more people are in the right place, I think they are a happier quote. I used
30:46to word happy because everyone understands happy in a different way, but fulfilled lah,
30:51you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so. Whatever that happy is to. Yes, yes, yes. If we achieve
30:56that, that means you're in the right place. And, and yeah, then Hiredly as a company would
31:00have achieved the reason why we existed in the first day. Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like
31:04you're on track? Um, on track? Yes. A lot of work ahead. Yes. Also. Um, I, that's,
31:12um, it's, uh, you know, like I said, at the start, it, building a job platform, it's a lot
31:18more challenging than, than I first expected. Yeah. Uh, I have a lot of battle scars right
31:23now. I mean, not just a job platform, I'm building a company. Yeah. You know, you know,
31:27I have a lot of battle scars, but I have so many lessons that I've learned along the
31:30way. Um, uh, but, uh, you know, I'm still very, I still have a very strong belief
31:38that we are, this is the right direction. Let me put it this way. Whether it's going
31:43to take us one year to succeed, two years to succeed, five years, 10, eventually we are
31:48going to get there. Right. It just, whether sooner or later. So I'm, we are just keep
31:52going to pushing in this direction until everyone, uh, believes it can use us and
31:58find that right place to work. Right. I wish that happens for you as well. Now
32:03you've seen the hiring landscape evolve up close, obviously, because of what you do
32:08for a living on what highly does. What's one thing you wish every young
32:12Malaysian understood about careers that maybe schools or societies still fail to
32:18teach us. Like we don't learn this naturally. You wish people knew this as they
32:22were heading out and starting their careers. Um, yeah. Um, first I would say
32:29is communication skills. Yeah. I think, I mean, we talk about soft skills a lot, but
32:33when, when I see people talk about soft skills, they mostly talk about, oh, your
32:37ability to interview for a job. You know what I mean? They're thinking in those
32:39terms, right? No, but you know, but communication is so important. I, I find
32:43that, um, the people who excel in a career, they grow very far in a career.
32:48Typically they, they have, obviously they're competent, they can do their job well, but
32:54they may not necessarily be the most competent person. Right. They, they reach a certain
32:59standard and then they're a great communicator. Right. This is the person that would be like,
33:03say a C-level person. Right. So you have, let's say, I just, I'm just talking, let's
33:07say in the technology department, right? You have a software developer that is very
33:11technical, very good, but a poor communicator. Another software developer that was like,
33:16so-so lah, you know, they, they, they understand software, but they're not best
33:19developer, but they were an amazing communicator. Yeah. This amazing communicator
33:24will be the CTO. Because they can share their ideas well. They can pull people
33:28together, they can share that, they can cascade information down, they can, they can
33:32talk to the business and work with the business about how to, you know, what the
33:36business is trying to build the tech side, you know? So, so, so a great communicator
33:40connects people, inspires people. They, they are able to lead people and you're able
33:47to lead people. Then, you know, in an organization, you tend to rise higher. So
33:51I think, again, I don't want to side check too much. Obviously, there's a danger of
33:56someone being a great communicator, actually very incompetent. Which has
34:02happened in many instances. It happens a lot. I just want to lay the word rug pull
34:08here. And anyone who understands what that means, you know, it's happened to
34:12many people. I met so many, but anyway. Who use this power for evil. Who use this
34:18great ability to communicate. No, I guess it's kind of like, if you're trying to
34:22write in an organization, and then you, if you suddenly realize one day that it
34:26doesn't matter so much how competent I am, as long as I'm a great communicator, then
34:29you can go in down the wrong path. It's like the dark side. That's so true. But
34:34is this skill, this ability to communicate, is it something inherent? Or is it
34:39something you can learn? I think you can learn it. And I think I was a horrible
34:43communicator. I don't think I'm a great communicator now. Really? No, no, I'm not. You
34:47don't think you're a great communicator? Okay, I would disagree, but... No, I mean, there's
34:52so many people that I follow. I wish I spoke like them, you know. So, but when I
34:57started, anyway, I was so bad at communication. So, it can be learned. I
35:02think schools should teach it. Should really teach it. So, I think schools
35:05teach language. And they think they're teaching communication, right? They
35:08teach like Basel, Malaysia, English, Mandarin, whatever. And they think they're
35:12teaching communication. So, no. Language and communication is not the
35:16same, right? So, I've met people, for example, who, let's say, maybe their
35:20English is not the best. Their English language is not the best. But they can
35:24communicate English so well. Yeah. You know, while they're speaking
35:28English, their language proficiency is not the best. But communication is a, it's
35:34not language. So, a lot of schools teach language. They think it's
35:36communication, but it's not. So, they should. I think the second thing, by the
35:39way, is a logical thought process. This is commonly known, right? That education
35:45systems, the way it's designed, incentivizes memorizing. Yeah. Yeah. Learning
35:50things by rote. Yes. Yes. Yes. And unfortunately, when you come
35:54out and work, it can only get you so far. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you need to be
36:00able to understand things. Yeah. You know, and debate ideas. And to do that, you need
36:05that logical thought process. You need to know, like, one plus one equals two, why? You
36:10know, like, you know, the art of reasoning. Yeah. And that combined with the
36:14communication that you mentioned. Yes. Is a superpower. Is a superpower. Yes. Yes.
36:19That can be used for evil. Yeah. All for, for, for, to do great good. Yeah. It's like that
36:28Spider-Man saying, with great response, with great power comes great responsibility. Okay,
36:32we've come to the rapid fire questions part of this, Derek. So, whatever comes to mind
36:38first, is what you tell us. Yeah. Okay. Your opinion of this may change later on. But
36:44at this moment, this is what you think. Okay. First question. Hustle culture or healthy balance?
36:52Uh, healthy hustle. Can I say that? Okay, sure. Now, hire someone smarter than you or someone who
36:58listens to you? Smarter. Smarter, huh? Okay. What's the most overrated soft skill? Overrated soft
37:07skill. Networking. Oh, overrated. Interesting. Way overrated. Yeah. I have questions about that.
37:15Okay. Elaborate just a little bit. Uh, I, I, I think a lot of people go to networking events
37:20with business cards and expect to somehow get value from it, you know, like my new clients. But I, I think
37:28in order for you, I think it's much better to be great at what you do. And when you're great at what you
37:34do, your network comes to you. Because people are also looking for someone that gives value to them,
37:38right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, so I've seen situations where people exchange business cards
37:42in the event, but nothing really happens. Right. You know, and then maybe you have one more coffee
37:46after that, but if there's no value to exchange here, nothing happens. So I think networking is not
37:51that useful. Oh, true. All right. Worst advice you've ever received?
37:56Not specifically any advice given to me, but the general idea that you should hire
38:02great people and, uh, uh, uh, and sort of empower them to do whatever they want to do.
38:10Oh. Was that surprising? Yeah, a little bit.
38:15Uh, but I want to qualify why I said this. I also need a little bit more because if you're hiring a
38:18great person, the idea would be to empower them. I, you would think to do whatever they wanted to do,
38:25but that's not how you feel. Okay. No. Uh, in fact, again, this is through a lot of scar tissue
38:30that I've been related. Um, A, how do you know this person is great? Right? That's one. So a lot of
38:37people make the mistake because I hire this person. Therefore, I just want to trust you, right? And then
38:41by the time you realize that they don't know what they're doing, it's too late. Right. So, um, and B,
38:48I don't think even if they were great at it, I don't think it's just fully empowering and trusting them
38:54what to do. You need to partner with them. Right. You, you actually need to, because there's going
38:58to be stuff that they're really amazing at, but I'm pretty sure they could benefit from your input
39:04on some things that you're better. Right. Right. And if you can, if you can really work with each
39:08other very well, then the end result would be very good. You know? So, so, so it means sometimes
39:14when you hire a great person, they have to be the kind of person that doesn't walk in with a lot of ego.
39:19Right. Nobody should get free reign. Yes, yes, yes. So, so, so, you know, I've had this experience
39:25before where I hired a very senior person. Right. And I sort of asked questions about their world
39:30and they got offended. You know? And then like, why, but why are you so offended? Like, are you,
39:35you know, it actually makes me feel like, wait, wait a minute. Is there something I need to look
39:38further into? Yeah. If the person is that great, shouldn't they be able to just answer your question?
39:42Yes, yes, yes. And I do this with every senior person we hire and the person who really knows
39:48what they're talking about. Sometimes we're even so happy that I'm asking them the question. They
39:52can show off their work. They show up, look there, I did this. Right. So this is how I did it. Oh,
39:57wow. That's so cool. You know? So, so that is like, um, anyway, so, so that's, that's good advice,
40:01actually. I mean, it's good advice that you've learned. You're giving great advice based on what you
40:06learned the hard way. That's right. So I think the, the, the proper advice for that is like,
40:12yes, you do hire great people, but just make sure you know, they are actually great. Yeah. That's
40:16one. And they don't get free reign. They're not little demigods that come in and get to this.
40:19Yes. You should partner with them. They should allow you to partner with them. All right. Okay.
40:23Next for the rapid fire questions, passion or paycheck?
40:30Passion. I get old fashion guy. Okay. Yeah. Which is what you did actually. That's what you've done.
40:34Yeah. Yes. Early stages of this. But I have to say that I, I, I wrote a lot against passion
40:40passion for a very long time. Okay. More because, uh, I don't think people understand what passion
40:46means. Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. Yes. So, so if I can elaborate, uh, when we think of passion,
40:51they think they're happy all the time. That's what you imagine passion to be. I, I love my job so
40:55much. I feel I'm not going to work. No, I feel I'm working all the time, you know? So, um, it's not
41:00about loving every moment of it. In fact, I think passion, if I'm not mistaken, comes from a Latin word
41:06called passion or something like that. Okay. And which actually means to suffer. Oh, okay.
41:11Yeah. Uh, and then to be very passionate or something actually literally means that this thing
41:18that you're doing means so much to you. Okay. That you really love it, that you are willing to go
41:23through the pain, like the hardship of trying to achieve it, you know? And, and, but because you
41:29really care about this thing that you want to do, right? So that is passion. The care to do something.
41:35Right. It is not really about loving every moment of it. I guess passion, and that's why passion and
41:40love are so similar because you can experience love, but a part of experiencing love is sometimes
41:44that pain that comes along with it. But nonetheless, it is the feeling of, of love that comes with,
41:52you know, a little bit of jealousy sometimes, a little bit of pain sometimes, but the overarching
41:56feeling is one that you enjoy. And the same can be said about choosing something that you work for.
42:03Because if it's worth the passion, that means you will enjoy even the hard parts of doing
42:08the job. Cause it's not going to be perfect and easy, but you have to do the difficult
42:12parts of a job as well. Yeah. I mean, it's great use the analogy of love, right? I have conversations
42:17with you. I mean, this is more personal stuff, right? Like people will say that, oh, you know what?
42:20I, you know, for example, like why, like they ask you, oh, why do you know that your wife is the one
42:25or that? Right. And then I would say I was half, half jokingly say, oh, you know, when we first got
42:30together, we fought all the time, you know, but I mean, I'm not asking people to fight all the time,
42:35but what I'm trying to say is there was so much emotion in that, you know, in that interaction and
42:41we recover from it. And that is so much better than indifference. But it's true. So I met people
42:51who feel that, oh, you know what? Like, oh, I want to leave my partner and stuff like that because
42:54there's nothing there. We don't even fight about it. There's nothing, there's nothing, you know,
42:59there is no emotion between the two of us, no good or bad emotion. I mean, it's nothing.
43:04Nothing. Yes. Yes. So I think so. So what and passion in the context of a job is the same. I mean,
43:10it's like, yeah, there's something you care about so much. There's the good and there's the bad.
43:14Right. Yeah. There's the up and there's the down. Yeah. Love it. Next rapid fire question. A job
43:20interview, what's a job interview pet peeve that you secretly hate, but you kind of see happen all the
43:27time that you wish didn't happen, whether it's from the interviewer side or the interviewee side,
43:32but something that you see frequently happen that you don't like?
43:35Um, I met a lot of candidates who don't research the company that they're interviewing for,
43:42which is a bit surprising to me. Yeah. As an example, if I interview someone, I ask a very
43:48basic example, oh, why do you want to join Hiredly? And then suddenly you go into this like
43:53roundabout thing then, and I tell them, wait, wait, you do know what we do here, right?
43:57You don't know. And then, yeah, yeah, they may not know. And, and, and so, so this to me is a
44:02disappointment. So they come in to say that, oh, I can do this, I can do it. But again, you know,
44:07Hiredly is about helping people find the right place, right? So let's say I'm hiring a salesperson.
44:12You can tell me you're great in sales. Good, good. I can see you're very good at sales. But how do I
44:16know you are the right salesperson for Hiredly? Yeah. Our specific company. I mean, we're matching
44:22people to company. So, and if you cannot, if you don't even know what Hiredly is doing, then I, then
44:28that's it. That's when you turn the potential, um, employee into your potential client.
44:35Maybe you need to hire. Maybe the hire is right. Yeah, yeah.
44:40Finally, um, oh no, there's two more. Okay. When should someone not accept a job offer, even if it
44:46pays well? In which situation? Should they accept, should they not accept a job offer, even if it
44:53pays well? If you can tell you're not going to fit in, like the culture. If you can tell that
44:57you're not going to like the culture, you should not take this job. And I can tell you why, it's
45:01going to be horrible. Yeah. Every day is going to feel like a pain. And you might think, oh, I'm
45:04willing to endure the pain, you know, but, but you might endure the pain and let's say you don't get
45:10confirmed or you get your, or, or, um, you never get promoted, you know? So is that worth the pain?
45:17So, so, so, uh, it's not worth it. Yeah. It's not worth it. Right. Yeah. What's more important in a
45:23first interview? Confidence or clarity? Confidence or clarity? First interview, uh, clarity for sure.
45:30Yeah. Hmm. Yes. All right. And now we've come to the final question. If you had the opportunity
45:37to make one change as prime minister of Malaysia for a day, what would it be and why? Right. Uh,
45:46if you're the Malaysian government listening to this, uh, I want to say, uh, I pay a lot of attention
45:51to AI. We are very close to the technology. Very, very close. I truly, truly believe work and jobs are
45:57going to change. Uh, it's going to change. It's going to come very fast. It's going to come suddenly.
46:02We have a lot of data that can, that we can see this happening. And, um, uh, and whenever there's,
46:09um, well, I'm not sure the word is crisis now. Whenever there are events like this,
46:13right, where people like, whether it's an economic crisis or stuff like that,
46:17when people lose their jobs, there's always an entrepreneurship boom. Always. Right.
46:23Because people need to put food on the table, right? They need to try to find a way to make money. Right.
46:27A lot of people are going to start companies, right? So I'm not talking about starting AI companies. Right.
46:31But they're going to start new companies because they need to feed their families, right? Right.
46:35So it's going to be an entrepreneurship boom. As a government, you should anticipate that,
46:39that I would anticipate that. And I, I was, I will start building the infrastructure,
46:44the support system to encourage a lot of entrepreneurs to help them. Right.
46:47Help them because the beginning is going to be very hard. Yeah. They're going to need a lot.
46:51It's not, it's not like a job. Um, and, and, uh, if I'm, yeah, again, I'm not trying to be,
46:57I will never be, but, uh, I, I would say build the support system for the entrepreneurship boom
47:04that is likely going to happen very soon. Okay. Yeah. That's a little alarming. A little bit.
47:11No, it's good. It's good. They'll come and maybe they'll love it. I'm so glad I'm doing this now.
47:16And maybe some of them will come through you through Hiredly to find positions in those upcoming
47:22entrepreneurial, um, startups. We have so many plans to support them by the way. Like, so, so yeah,
47:28we're already making the steps. We are a small company. Yeah. Um, but as a small company, we're
47:32doing what we can in anticipation of this thing that will happen. Wow. It has been a really, really
47:38interesting conversation with you. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on life, work, and AI.
47:45Derek, we appreciate you for joining us. Thank you, Terry. Thanks for having me.
47:49And we will see you in the next episode of life confessions where another amazing person
47:54whose brain we can pick will join us here on the show, on the podcast.
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