At today's Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) questioned NIH Dir. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.
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00:00Thank you. We have been joined by the vice chair of the full committee, Senator Murray, and welcome her here.
00:07Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Welcome to our committee.
00:09You know, I am extremely proud of the work that I've done on a bipartisan basis to strengthen our investments in NIH,
00:17to support life-saving research, and to really maintain American leadership in biomedical innovation.
00:23I'm not going to mince words today about how that progress is now being unraveled.
00:28What the Trump administration is doing to NIH right now is, frankly, catastrophic.
00:35Over the past few months, this administration has fired and pushed out nearly 5,000 critical employees across NIH,
00:44prevented nearly $3 billion in grant funding from being awarded,
00:49and terminated nearly 2,500 grants, totaling almost $5 billion for life-saving research that is ongoing
00:58that includes clinical trials for HIV and Alzheimer's disease.
01:03Across the country, including in my home state of Washington,
01:06research institutions have been waiting for months to receive funding for grants they've already been awarded.
01:14Meanwhile, NIH is cutting down on grant awards, with thousands of fewer research grants this year
01:21and almost 15,000 fewer next year if the administration has its way.
01:26Because to pile on this destruction, you and the president are requesting that we now slash NIH budget by 40% or $18 billion.
01:38I cannot fathom to what end.
01:40The Trump administration is already systematically dismantling the American biomedical research enterprise
01:47that is the envy of the world, throwing away billions in economic activity in every one of our states
01:54and jeopardizing the life-saving work of researchers across the country.
01:59This budget proposal would effectively forfeit our leadership in research innovation and competitiveness to China.
02:06It would mean we depend on China for the latest treatments for devastating diseases.
02:11No one in America wants us to do less cancer research.
02:16No one is asking you to make it harder to research Alzheimer's disease.
02:21And no one is asking you to cut life-saving clinical trials.
02:25We are hearing this from the experts themselves.
02:28You just received a letter signed by hundreds of your own staff
02:32who believe this administration's actions risk breaking NIH and the life-saving work it does.
02:39I really hope you heed their warning.
02:42And it should go without saying, but I expect none of them to face retaliation for raising those concerns.
02:49Everyone on this dais wants NIH to succeed.
02:54And you're going to need to see some major changes from what you are doing right now
02:58to get us back on the right path.
03:02Now, Dr. Bhattacharya, we spoke on the phone last week.
03:05I appreciate that.
03:06I want to follow up on those questions and what I've been trying to get answers from you for months.
03:12You told me 25 staff have been fired from the NIH Clinical Center
03:16out of the 1,445 who've been fired across the entire agency.
03:21But that does not include staff leaving after being offered buyouts or threatened with future layoffs.
03:29I want to know what is the total number of employees who left the Clinical Center
03:34and the entire agency as a result of the Trump administration's personnel actions in total.
03:41So the numbers I have in front of me are for the reduction in force.
03:45That's the 25 I mentioned in our conversation.
03:49We'll get those numbers for the retirements to you.
03:52Well, I told you I was going to ask for this administration over the phone.
03:56I've requested this multiple times.
03:58How come you do not have that for us today?
04:00I thought it's my misunderstanding.
04:03I thought you were asking for the reduction in force numbers, which we provided you.
04:05No, I was being very clear.
04:07So I want to know, by the end of the day,
04:09can I have a detailed list of the reductions in staff by institute, by center, by job function?
04:15Not just the RIFs.
04:17Not just the RIFs.
04:18We'll get you those.
04:18The total staff reductions.
04:19Can I have that by the end of the day?
04:22Okay.
04:22Those are really basic questions, and I want to see that by the end of the day.
04:28Now, I am also particularly concerned, as I told you, about cuts to clinical trials,
04:33which are harming patients' care nationwide and the chance for better treatments and cures.
04:38NIH has now terminated at least 160 clinical trials.
04:42In addition to terminating grants, you are also delaying grant awards
04:47and freezing or significantly delaying institutions from being able to draw down their grant funding,
04:53which is disrupting clinical trials to say nothing of the research that it is now threatening.
04:58How many clinical trials across the country have been impacted by the grants you have terminated, frozen, or delayed?
05:07Senator, I don't have the numbers for the specific number of trials.
05:11We've worked to make sure that the patients enrolled in the clinical trials have any delay in their care.
05:18As a result of the...
05:20In 2020, the NIH terminated a very large number of clinical trials.
05:24Well, I'm asking you about today, under your direction.
05:27I don't have the specific numbers, and a lot of that is subject negotiation.
05:30I've set up a process where people can appeal for if there's any decisions made
05:35regarding grant pauses and terminations.
05:40And we're actively working to make sure that that appeals process is going.
05:46You know, the numbers are in flux, and we'll have to get some of those numbers to you later.
05:49We do know that patient care is being impacted at your own clinical center,
05:54and in more than 100 clinical trials in the country.
05:56On May 30th, you terminated a 23-year research effort to develop an HIV vaccine.
06:04Justice scientists, including at the Fred Hunt Center in Seattle, are on the cusp of a functional cure for HIV.
06:12Terminating those HIV vaccine trials now cuts off access to treatment for 6,000 patients in the network.
06:19You canceled a clinical trial evaluating new evidence-based interventions for type 2 diabetes in rural communities in Appalachia.
06:29You terminated a clinical trial studying immunotherapy in combination with monoclonal antibodies
06:35to treat women with recurrent ovarian cancer.
06:39That is what has already happened.
06:41So now you are coming to us today proposing to cut NIH funding by 40% next year.
06:46Tell us how many fewer clinical trials would you fund in the next fiscal year with a budget cut of $18 billion in NIH.
06:56Senator, can I just address the HIV?
06:58Because I am absolutely committed to the...
07:00In 2019, President Trump issued a challenge for us to eliminate the threat of HIV in this country,
07:09and we've had a 22% reduction in HIV transmission since then.
07:12We now have the technological tools to do that.
07:15I've been working on developing a program to actually implement this vision so we can use new advances.
07:20But you did terminate the HIV research at Fred Hutch that, again, was on the cusp of a treatment for 6,000 patients nationwide.
07:29We've had tremendous...
07:30You did do that.
07:31I'd have to get back to you on that.
07:32You did do that, okay.
07:34Senator, I mean, I think we actually have now the chance with the existing technologies,
07:37Lencapavir and other technologies to actually address...
07:40I'm delighted to hear that, but I'm just telling you what clinical trials have been terminated,
07:44and I'm asking you this because we have to write an appropriations bill.
07:49How many fewer clinical trials will you fund in the next fiscal year with an $18 billion cut?
07:56Well, Senator, the...
07:57That's your budget request.
07:58The budget request is a work of negotiation between Congress and the administration.
08:05President Trump has issued a letter to Secretary Kratzios committing the United States to be the leading nation...
08:11Yeah, okay.
08:12Well, you're not answering the question.
08:13We need to know how many fewer clinical trials.
08:15Can you get that number back to me, please?
08:17I mean, that's...
08:17You're asking for a budget.
08:19We're trying to figure out what that will fund.
08:21That's our job.
08:21The number depends on what the requests we get for proposals from all across the country.
08:28The budget itself will be dependent on what you all do as well as...
08:32Well, I know, but we are trying to write a budget with the knowledge that you have,
08:36with the requests that you have.
08:37I'm asking the question, how many fewer clinical trials?
08:40We need an answer back to that.
08:42Well, Senator, it's hard to give an answer to that because I don't know what the proposals are going to be that are coming in, right?
08:47I mean, you're asking a hypothetical question about what the...
08:52You came here today to ask for a budget that reduces NIH significantly.
08:57I would expect, as director, you would know what the impacts had.
09:00We need to know what the impacts are in order to fund that budget.
09:02Senator, I mean, it's hard to say exactly what the researchers of the country are going to do in response.
09:08I mean, for a hypothetical budget...
09:09Would you say there's going to be more clinical trials under that?
09:12Under...
09:13Under an $18 billion 40% cut?
09:15It seems unlikely.
09:15But I'll say this, that the budget itself is a negotiation between the administration and Congress.
09:21Congress allocates the funds.
09:23I am absolutely committed to make sure whatever the allocation goes, that we go to...
09:27We address the health...
09:28I know my time is way over, Madam Chairman.
09:31But I think the point is really important, that you are asking us for a significant reduction.
09:37It will impact the health of the United States of America.
09:40This committee has an obligation to know how you are spending that money.
09:44Thank you very much.