'No, You're Here To Answer My Questions': Patty Murray Does Not Let Up On Trump's FDA Commissioner

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During a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing on Thursday, Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) questioned FDA Commissioner Martin Makary on layoffs.

Transcript

00:00Senator Peters. Senator Murray. Thank you very much, Chair Hoven. I look forward to working with

00:04you on this really important committee. You know, Commissioner McCurry, the FDA has a really

00:10important job to do. Lives literally are at stake, and that work requires the utmost diligence and

00:18care and commitment to following the science and uploading FDA's gold standard. We all expect to

00:24walk into the drugstore and know that what we are buying has passed a safety and efficacy standard,

00:30and we have to be assured of that, and we have to be assured that the work's been done, that we don't

00:35have to question that. So I don't think it's careful leadership when you do mass fire one in five

00:42people across FDA, only to frantically then bring some back because you didn't stop and think two

00:47seconds about whether those jobs were actually important. We really, Mr. Chairman, cannot cheap

00:53out on the FDA and expect to maintain that gold standard. That means that people know that drugs

00:59are safe. We can't just cut and cut and hope nobody gets sick when you're slow to issue a recall or hope

01:05no one needs that medicine that had its approval delayed or hope there isn't another infant formula

01:12issue while your staff are getting fired or getting rehired or wherever they are. This work really takes

01:19investments. This committee knows that, and it expects expert staff like the people that have been shoved

01:25out the door. Drug approvals are already getting delayed. Food and drug safety inspections are lagging

01:32behind. We are going in the wrong direction fast. We still have yet to see from you a full budget request.

01:40That is unacceptable. You are now testifying that the budget proposes to slash FDA by more than 11%. That's

01:50actually news to all of us, and I'll tell you right now, it is not going to fly. It's reckless,

01:56and it's not going to happen as long as I have anything to say about it. Now, Commissioner McCary,

02:01when it comes to your mass firing of FDA employees, in April you said, quote, I can tell you there were no

02:07cuts to scientists or inspectors. Well, that is not true. I think Senator Ossoff covered that,

02:13and I think the point here is that all of this firing and rehiring, I don't see how that's efficient.

02:19Frankly, it kind of shows that you don't know what you're doing, and you're breaking things,

02:23and the process here. So let me ask you a question, and hopefully it is an easy one for you.

02:29Does it save taxpayer dollars to fire staff who work in centers that are fully funded by user fees,

02:38not taxpayer dollars, yes or no? Nice to see you again, Senator Murray. You asked me to do an

02:46assessment of the staff when I came here for my confirmation hearing, and I hear that you're

02:52criticizing me for bringing back some individuals after the cuts that I was not a part of.

02:57That's good. I'm just saying in the long run, this has been very inefficient. But my question to you

03:01is not about that. And I know you've covered it with several other members. So does it save

03:07taxpayer dollars to fire staff who work in centers that are fully funded by user fees, not taxpayer

03:14dollars? Is that efficient? Does it save money? The cuts were to HR, IT, communications. There were

03:232,600 HR staff. But they're funded by user fees. They're funded by user fees. It is not saving any money.

03:29In part. Well, many of the staff you fired were in centers that are actually fully funded by user

03:36fees. You know that, correct? So if we have 2,600 HR people, do you want me to not make any cuts?

03:41No, I'm asking you a specific question about the centers that are fully funded by user fees. That's one

03:48center. It's the tobacco center. Well, so, uh, we, okay, well, let me just say we can't just keep

03:56cut and cut. We can't keep hiring and hiring. The agency doubled since 2007. So let me ask you,

04:01what is the right number of employees? You're here to answer my questions, and I'm going to ask some

04:05more. Without critical support staff you fired, inspectors cannot plan their trips. They cannot do

04:10their jobs. I want to ask you, what percent of planned inspections has FDA missed since those

04:18April 1st firings? In the 12 labs that we have that evaluate food products in the food inspection

04:26realm, there are no, as of last week, I just did a check, there are no backlogs. They are running at

04:32100% efficiency. There are no drug approval delays, despite the, you know, what people want to attribute.

04:38That is not what I have been told. I have been told, and I would like you to go back and check

04:43and report back to us, because we know that some of the planned inspections at these, um,

04:49that were supposed to take place, um, have been missed. And to me, why that's so important,

04:55if there is not inspections, the public doesn't have the information that they need. Um, I am going

05:01to run out of time, so I want to move on. There are no cuts to inspectors. Will you go back and check

05:06for me, please? Absolutely. I understand, and by the way, inspectors, one thing, but if you don't

05:11have the support staff to make sure that they know where they're going. They have a 2,600 HR staff and

05:16procurement staff. Okay. I understand that the FOIA staff producing documents related to ongoing

05:22litigation by the Children's Health Defense, Senator Kennedy's organization, were shielded from the

05:28RIF, while other FOIA staff are responsible for FOIA responses that other FDA centers were targeted

05:35for termination. Is that true? That's not true, Senator. We are, have, uh, we have our FOIA staff,

05:43uh, they continue to work at the FDA. I've made sure that all the FOIA staff at the FDA are doing

05:48their job. We are also using AI to reduce the burden on that stuff. Well, for the record, my understanding

05:53is that the Children's Health Defense FOIA staff were not fired when other ones were. All the FOIA

05:58staff are there. And that, and that seems like a real conflict of interest to me, considering that

06:02the Secretary's extensive history with that organization, Children's Health Defense, and his

06:07goal to remove authorizations for vaccines. So I just want that. It's not true. Well, all FOIA staff are in

06:14place. Um, okay. So if a study came out saying that people who took a certain medication experience a

06:22certain rate of, quote, serious adverse offense, but the study's authors refused to say what they

06:28were counting as an adverse event, would that raise serious questions for you about the study's

06:33validity? Yes, Senator. So I have the natural inquisition of a scientist that's done a lot

06:40of research. So I would want to see the underlying data. Yes. Okay. Well, I am, of course, talking about

06:46the sham study from the Ethics and Public Policy Center. It's an anti-abortion group. It's bankrolled by

06:52extremists. They fought to overturn Roe v. Wade. And this study, if you can call it that, is unsound

06:58and has been widely panned by medical experts. But days after its release, you and Secretary Kennedy

07:04are now suggesting that we need a, quote, complete review on the safety of mifepristone. Now, to be

07:10clear, mifepristone has been proven safe and effective in more than 100 studies over three

07:16decades. And the people that are now pushing that bogus study and saying that mifepristone is

07:22dangerous for women are the exact same people who think that abortion is never necessary to save a

07:28woman's life and that 10-year-olds should somehow be forced into childbirth. I believe that this

07:33administration is laying the groundwork to rip away access to medication abortion across the country.

07:39This has not gotten enough attention. And I know you'd prefer to keep it that way, but I want you to

07:45know I'm not going to let that happen. I have not seen that study, Senator, and you have not seen that

07:50study. So how can you call it a sham bogus study? Neither of us have seen the study, the underlying

07:55data, or the methodology. Actually, that's not true. But I will say this. Mr. Chairman, we have a lot of

08:01differences here. I know you came before this committee to present your side of the story,

08:06but I am very clear that laying off people, cutting budgets, is not going to improve the safety and

08:13efficacy that we count on when we go to the drugstore to get our drugs. And I know that sham

08:19studies that try to prove a point that came from a political group is not going to tell the public

08:26that they can count on the medications they count on. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.

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